Freedom, Free Market, And Socialism - Endless Debate Here

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Freedom, Free Market, And Socialism - Endless Debate Here
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flag AMBikerJJ8
Posted: Dec 10, 2010 at 21:00 Quote
gibson19 wrote:
My grandpa is the same way. 70 years old and still works every day carrying lumber around. My point is that before government people died. If you could afford to be treated then you lived a little bit longer.

Its not that people in canada don't get treatment. Its that they get it too late cause they are stuck on waiting lists of other people who need treatment as well. In winnipeg the average wait for an MRI is something like 6 months last I heard. A bit sooner if your gonna die really soon. In the states I got an MRI not even a week after I was told to get one. Ya it cost a $20 co-pay. The insurance company picked up the rest


I took a quick look into cancer survival rates and to be honest was expecting to be let down cause Canadians are usually cited for better overall health (ie less fast food and more exercise sort of stuff) but heres what I found

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba596
[Quoten]Results for Canada. Canada's system of national health insurance is often cited as a model for the United States. But an analysis of 2001 to 2003 data by June O'Neill, former director of the Congressional Budget Office, and economist David O'Neill, found that overall cancer survival rates are higher in the United States than in Canada: 3

For women, the average survival rate for all cancers is 61 percent in the United States, compared to 58 percent in Canada.
For men, the average survival rate for all cancers is 57 percent in the United States, compared to 53 percent in Canada.
Early Diagnosis. It is often claimed that people have better access to preventive screenings in universal health care systems. But despite the large number of uninsured, cancer patients in the United States are most likely to be screened regularly, and once diagnosed, have the fastest access to treatment. For example, a Commonwealth Fund report showed that women in the United States were more likely to get a PAP test for cervical cancer every two years than women in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Great Britain, where health insurance is guaranteed by the government. 4

In the United States, 85 percent of women aged 25 to 64 years have regular PAP smears, compared with 58 percent in Great Britain.
The same is true for mammograms; in the United States, 84 percent of women aged 50 to 64 years get them regularly — a higher percentage than in Australia, Canada or New Zealand, and far higher than the 63 percent of British women.[/Quoten]

And much of that is owed to the fact that the middle and upper classes in America do have access to healthcare...so our averages are not brought down by the poor people who DON'T and DON'T get ANY access to healthcare and probably never know that they have cancer. Their survival rate is 0%, I can tell you that...all the other countries have universal healthcare in there.

So then why is US healthcare ranked so low in quality overall? Along with education...


A lot of this comes down to fairness though. If you were the poor person without healthcare I can tell you you'd probably NOT want a private system.
flag ezekiel
Posted: Dec 11, 2010 at 9:43 Quote
gibson19 wrote:
When the private business has to compete for your business they need to make sure you are well treated.

This is only true if there's a directly competing business in the area. If you live in a small town or city as so many people do, its not like you're going to have 10 doctors competing for the business of a population of less than 100,000 people. Those doctors are all going to go to the larger and wealthier areas where they can make more money, leaving the small town folk in the same situation they're already in with substandard or zero accessible health care.

My sister-in-law works in the medical field and some of the stories she's had about various clinics and doctors that she's worked or interviewed for are disgusting.
flag ezekiel
Posted: Dec 11, 2010 at 9:45 Quote
gibson19 wrote:
Having experienced Private and Public healthcare, I'd take private in a heartbeat.

That's easy to say when you're young, still in good health and not viewed as a liability.

Even something as basic as having a high stress job and high blood pressure can make attaining private health insurance a costly venture.
flag gibson19
Posted: Dec 11, 2010 at 10:17 Quote
[Quoten]
That's easy to say when you're young, still in good health and not viewed as a liability.

Even something as basic as having a high stress job and high blood pressure can make attaining private health insurance a costly venture.[/Quoten]

I maintain that its still cheaper the the Canadian system. The opportunity cost of having "free" healthcare is more than a 10% income tax increase. That adds up to hundreds of thousands over a lifetime more than enough to pay into a good health insurance plan. Not to mention the type of work I'm going into is one that almost across the board offers insurance through them making it even cheaper.

Sure its gonna get expensive when I start having issues. I managed to deal with car insurance being a "liability". I was still cheaper to insure as a driver in the states than in the monopolistic Manitoba Public Insurance garbage.

I can always move back to Canada though and get my tax money back from them Razz

Not to mention, knowing that bad health will cost me more in the future is a good incentive to try and be healthy.

Your definitely right about competition. Its not like an online store where you can choose what company you want and have it shipped over. As an aside they are developing robots that are doctor controlled so that you can get specialist care even if there aren't specialists in your area.





And much of that is owed to the fact that the middle and upper classes in America do have access to healthcare...so our averages are not brought down by the poor people who DON'T and DON'T get ANY access to healthcare and probably never know that they have cancer. Their survival rate is 0%, I can tell you that...all the other countries have universal healthcare in there.

So then why is US healthcare ranked so low in quality overall? Along with education...


A lot of this comes down to fairness though. If you were the poor person without healthcare I can tell you you'd probably NOT want a private system


Our education sucks because its run by the government and the teachers union. I'm not convinced that healthcare is ranked so low in the US. Do you have a link I can check out?

and your right if I was a poor person I'd want the government to give me a weekly check and buy me a house. Completely support me, but thats unrealistic and not fair to people who work for their money and pay taxes
flag ajsngklsagkjsdag
Posted: Dec 11, 2010 at 11:09 Quote
bigquotesand your right if I was a poor person I'd want the government to give me a weekly check and buy me a house. Completely support me, but thats unrealistic and not fair to people who work for their money and pay taxes

You just don't seem to be able to actually empathize with the poor. It's not a matter of them being lazy. Theres more to it than that.
flag valtra
Posted: Dec 11, 2010 at 12:42 Quote
Does the word "altruism" have any meaning anymore?
flag harriieee
Posted: Dec 11, 2010 at 13:24 Quote
Economic theory doesn't believe in altruism.
flag ajsngklsagkjsdag
Posted: Dec 11, 2010 at 13:29 Quote
harriieee wrote:
Economic theory doesn't believe in altruism.
flag gibson19
Posted: Dec 11, 2010 at 13:39 Quote
That actually depends who you ask. There are often hidden economic incentives to altruism


A basic one is that people want to look good. Its in their own self interest to give to something besides themselves. Not to mention a break on taxes for giving away money to good causes

I guess we should ignore every all these companies that are giving away millions to do go things.
flag dotca
Posted: Dec 11, 2010 at 17:26 Quote
gibson19 wrote:
And much of that is owed to the fact that the middle and upper classes in America do have access to healthcare...so our averages are not brought down by the poor people who DON'T and DON'T get ANY access to healthcare and probably never know that they have cancer. Their survival rate is 0%, I can tell you that...all the other countries have universal healthcare in there.

So then why is US healthcare ranked so low in quality overall? Along with education...


A lot of this comes down to fairness though. If you were the poor person without healthcare I can tell you you'd probably NOT want a private system


Our education sucks because its run by the government and the teachers union. I'm not convinced that healthcare is ranked so low in the US. Do you have a link I can check out?

and your right if I was a poor person I'd want the government to give me a weekly check and buy me a house. Completely support me, but thats unrealistic and not fair to people who work for their money and pay taxes

What about's Canada's education? It's ranked pretty high from a recent study, in all areas. It's also ran by the government, and teachers union... There is more to it then just that it's ran by the government and teachers union.
flag valtra
Posted: Dec 11, 2010 at 17:32 Quote
That's not truly altruism then is it.
bigquotesAltruism is the practice of charity - being particularly helpful to other people with little view to being rewarded for one's efforts.
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Altruism

The reward in that case would be looking good, or looking really good if the donation is large enough, and getting a tax receipt.

Don't know if anyone saw this lately, but Christmas charity donations are currently at the lowest recorded in the last ten years. There's a true lack of altruism, during a holiday our economy probably couldn't survive without.
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/life/Slow+donations+worry+charities/3962810/story.html
flag gibson19
Posted: Dec 11, 2010 at 19:11 Quote
dotca wrote:
gibson19 wrote:
And much of that is owed to the fact that the middle and upper classes in America do have access to healthcare...so our averages are not brought down by the poor people who DON'T and DON'T get ANY access to healthcare and probably never know that they have cancer. Their survival rate is 0%, I can tell you that...all the other countries have universal healthcare in there.

So then why is US healthcare ranked so low in quality overall? Along with education...


A lot of this comes down to fairness though. If you were the poor person without healthcare I can tell you you'd probably NOT want a private system


Our education sucks because its run by the government and the teachers union. I'm not convinced that healthcare is ranked so low in the US. Do you have a link I can check out?

and your right if I was a poor person I'd want the government to give me a weekly check and buy me a house. Completely support me, but thats unrealistic and not fair to people who work for their money and pay taxes

What about's Canada's education? It's ranked pretty high from a recent study, in all areas. It's also ran by the government, and teachers union... There is more to it then just that it's ran by the government and teachers union.

I'll be honest, that baffles me to this day. Its got all the recipes for failure, yet it doesn't. My experience with canadian schools was all private and the US it was public. The private school challenged me infinitely times more.

I think graph more than speaks for itself. Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://www.willisms.com/archives/Coulson-Cato-PS-Cost-Scores-2010-s.gif
Compared to teachers salaries which are rising at more than the inflation rate I would say something is very wrong. Performance based pay is way out the windows and education is at a stand still. Facilities aren't getting better, they are however building newing ones. Like the one that cost 587 Million dollars. I'm sure thats necessary
flag dotca
Posted: Dec 11, 2010 at 23:31 Quote
gibson19 wrote:
dotca wrote:
gibson19 wrote:
And much of that is owed to the fact that the middle and upper classes in America do have access to healthcare...so our averages are not brought down by the poor people who DON'T and DON'T get ANY access to healthcare and probably never know that they have cancer. Their survival rate is 0%, I can tell you that...all the other countries have universal healthcare in there.

So then why is US healthcare ranked so low in quality overall? Along with education...


A lot of this comes down to fairness though. If you were the poor person without healthcare I can tell you you'd probably NOT want a private system


Our education sucks because its run by the government and the teachers union. I'm not convinced that healthcare is ranked so low in the US. Do you have a link I can check out?

and your right if I was a poor person I'd want the government to give me a weekly check and buy me a house. Completely support me, but thats unrealistic and not fair to people who work for their money and pay taxes

What about's Canada's education? It's ranked pretty high from a recent study, in all areas. It's also ran by the government, and teachers union... There is more to it then just that it's ran by the government and teachers union.

I'll be honest, that baffles me to this day. Its got all the recipes for failure, yet it doesn't. My experience with canadian schools was all private and the US it was public. The private school challenged me infinitely times more.

I think graph more than speaks for itself.

Compared to teachers salaries which are rising at more than the inflation rate I would say something is very wrong. Performance based pay is way out the windows and education is at a stand still. Facilities aren't getting better, they are however building newing ones. Like the one that cost 587 Million dollars. I'm sure thats necessary

It's cause the teachers teach, and also keep stuff current. They also care about their students from my experience. They made sure the majority of students understood what was taught.
flag ajsngklsagkjsdag
Posted: Dec 11, 2010 at 23:37 Quote
Canada's high rank in education is caused by more than just the teachers. There is a whole gamut of factors behind it, but I think one large factor is the home life. Look at a Canadian ghetto for example, it's nothing compared to a mediocre one in the states. I think that the fact that general living conditions are better causes a child's view of education, and ability to receive it, better.

And how does a kid learn something, when all he can think about is how hungry he is.

To me Canada has better social programs, which therefore leads to better life across the board.

 


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