Natural medicine vs allopathic medicine

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Natural medicine vs allopathic medicine
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flag burt-reynolds
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 14:25 Quote
ArmyFork wrote:
This is what we call special pleading in logical fallacies, in where an argument is considered to be true based on special circumstances that are determined by the person making the argument. You have suggested, if I'm reading this properly, that alternative medicines cannot be tested by science but that they are still valid treatments nonetheless. Why wouldn't repeated experimentation work? All we would do in that situation is have equal numbers of people undergoing science based medicine (herefore referred to as SBM) treatment, another equal group undergoing no specific treatment as a control and a third group undergoing the alternative treatment. If there are any differences between the eventual outcomes of each group we could then record the differences and draw results from that, and decide what is the most effective treatment. How would that scientific approach not work to determine the efficacy of a treatment?

That scientific approach would work for western medicine, as the idea is to stop the symptoms quickly rather than get to the root of the problem. Even though the symptoms and diagnosis is the same amongst these groups, there would need to be a specific alternative medicine program for each individual. Look at chinese medicine for example. The cause of the symptoms will be different from one person to another because of the balance needed to achieve health. This would make it hard to reproduce, time and time again. Science does back up some alternative medicine, however people have a hard time believing what is not seen and is uncommon.

There is a good reason that there are accredited schools across our country for things like chinese medicine, and accupuncture that can also be funded with government funds. I'm not saying that western medicine does not cure symptoms, however it can cause serious harm to the body in many ways. Not only is this the case, it is also accepted because it cures symptoms for a short period of time. What do you think is one of the leading causes of sickness? Yep, a lot of sickness is caused by stress. Pharmy's won't solve that. Releaving the stress will help the body naturally heal without adding even more additional stress to the body. People can and will be skeptical with just about anything.

I'm not saying that alternative medicine cannot be tested by science, however it is far more difficult than western medicine in most cases.
flag ArmyFork
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 15:06 Quote
I'd love to do more research but seeing as I work ten hours a day, am in the gym four nights a week and spend the rest of my time on some personal engineering products and also trying to start a religious debate series, I'm not able to put in the vast amount of effort required to counter your claims about Lipitor, but I am willing to read anything you supply. So if you have some good sources, list them and I will investigate then. I can however counter your claims in reference to science and chemistry.

In chemistry Avogadro's rule and limit are not theories or just ideas waiting to be refined, they are absolute laws of probability that are irrefutable. To refute them would be to refute calculus, which is essentially impossible. But to use an argument from ignorance to suggest that since we do not know everything, your viewpoint can be correct is a logical fallacy. All it proves is that we don't know everything, and that is evidence of nothing. Science will change, and maybe we will discover a way that homeopathy could work but it has never been shown to have an effect equal to anything more then placebo in any correctly run trial. Skepdic.org, SkepticsGuide.org, ScienceBasedMedicine.org, Skeptoid.com, BadScience.net, JamesRandi.org and RichardDawkins.net are all sites that have done reviews of Homeopathy and every single time have found no efficacy or scientific plausibility beyond placebo, and all are run by noted academics, scientists and medical practitioners. If there is a positive effect, it's outside the error bars and statistically irrelevant.

Oh and I should mention that Einstein's theory of relativity hasn't been getting weaker with new data, it's getting stronger. If you ever doubt relativity, just check to make sure your GPS still works. The relativistic movement of the GPS satellite in relation to the earth creates a time dilation effect (time runs more slowly on the satellite), and without his theory we would never be able to adjust for it, making GPS literally worthless. It's also responsible for us being able to measure the red and blue shift of distant objects to determine their velocity and acceleration relative to us, which has been used to prove the big bang theory and the possible cold death of the universe.

Oh and science can prove the placebo effect, it's a very carefully studied subject these days. It's actually gotten to the point that sometimes placebos are prescribed instead of other medications precisely because they are more effective then normal treatments, or because of psychosomatic illnesses, which unlike some people think is not the same as hypochondria. Psychosomatic conditions occur when a persons mental state actual effects their physical state, and in some cases can be so strong actual medications are needed.

And yes I do understand the need for cholesterol in the body, like many other negatively perceived compounds (fat, salts) it is essential for our systems to operate properly and no, not everyone who has high cholesterol will get heart disease, my dad has high cholesterol but through careful diet and good exercise he's managed to avoid using medication. That said both of his parent dies before he was nineteen from heart attacks, I have no idea what their cholesterol levels were like.

But the claims you've about significant neurological effects, I simply cannot find anything from any reliable sources at this time. I'll spend some more time researching the drug but for the moment my opinion remains that Lipitor is not ideal, but it is effective.

You've also made the argument that because a corporation releases research, it is worthless. The thing is that it is in Pfizer's best interest to release accurate data, because if they lie on the effectiveness of their drug or it's possible side effects than any other competing drug company such as Merck & Co. (Mevacor), Shionogi (Altoprev), Novartis (Lescol XL) AstraZeneca (Crestor) would all tear apart their research to expose any failures on the part of Pfizer, because it's in their own best interest to discredit Lipitor and Pfizer publicly, and that's just the brand name Statin market, that doesn't include any of the other SBM pharmaceuticals that reduce LDL levels and the brands behind them. To suggest it's in the best interest of a pharmaceutical company to be dishonest is to say that they don't really care about making money or shareholder interest.

Another thing to note is that correlation is not necessarily causation, when you started using homeopathic preparations there may have been other changes that occurred at the same time that may have had a positive effect that may have nothing to do with your change in treatment. Another question is, can you quantify the change? That is, has your cholesterol level dropped significantly from when you stopped using Lipitor and started using homeopathy, has it gone down or gone up, or plateud?
flag Marlfox87
Posted: Oct 26, 2011 at 2:40 Quote
I may be moving the topic outside the realm being discussed by doing this, but many of the points raised by ArmyFork about the free market point of view used by companies to provide checks and balances kept reminding me of this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqZbF_ZIoOc I understand that this film is about cancer, and all the facts gathered here can't be used to argue the validity either EBM or SBM. But this does stand as an argument against the validity of a checks and balances system that ArmyFork argues will provide accurate evidence because other companies are seaching to to debunk their product. In a purely free market economy this is true, and provides an accurate answer in the same way that a physics problem is easily solved in a frictionless vacuum. But is that really what our economy is? (Factors such as monopolies, cartels, political and economic interests with non-free-market countries, and the human opinions of those holding such much $$ aka Power), and if it is such an economy is it fiscally reasonable to investigate a product that may provide a better result at a cut to profit? I've also got a lot of questions concerning both sides, but on the whole I'm just enjoying reading what's been said. I understand you're both busy people without all the time to research your sides that you would like, but I appreciate what you've done already, and would like to hear your answers in response to this film if you feel it pertains to the current debate.
flag ArmyFork
Posted: Oct 26, 2011 at 5:59 Quote
To preface I haven't yet watched the film, but in the interest of fairness I plan to and also plan to see if there are any skeptical rebuttals to the topics raised.

You are correct, we do not have a pure free market system in Canada or the US, although my own personal view is that a pure free market encourages monopolies and after a while competition is essentially eliminated. The cartel point is an interesting one, the same thing has occurred before and without a doubt occurs today, but the function of a cartel is the net benefit of the group, and I'm not sure that necessarily occurs in the pharmaceutical industry, that said I am not an investigative reporter so I can't be sure, but a good indicator would be to look at the net worth of the top ten pharmaceutical companies over the last decade and look at how their stock price fluctuated over the same period of time. It's not a perfect indicator, but it may shine some light on the possibility of a cartel system.

I'll admit the economic argument does not mean that Pfizer data will be accurate, so I do plan on finding third-party data to see what unbiased testers have to say about the risks and efficacy of the drug, I don't doubt that with such a popular medication there should be a large database of knowledge to explore. Might take awhile though, not all studies are easy to access (paywalls) and sometimes the data is impenetrable to the average reader, I'll see what I can come up with and return back to the question of Atorvastatin and other LDL medications.
flag katinasd
Posted: Oct 26, 2011 at 10:20 Quote
I know first hand that meditation and yoga works, done it and know it and can't get enough of it. I would even go so far to say it can heal physical and mental illness. There are more then enough studies to prove this and they are proving it again, and again and again.

It does more than you can imagine and that's the problem isn't it, you want to see it right now, but you have to experience. Why don't you try it out for a few weeks or months, prove them and me all wrong,

Enjoy.
flag ArmyFork
Posted: Oct 26, 2011 at 10:59 Quote
I've never made a suggestion that yoga or meditation could not be effective, I'm actually fairly supportive of yoga as a form of exercise although I've never really done it myself, although he general view from the medical and fitness community seems to be generally positive.

Meditation however, I find that interesting. It depends on the form of meditation, as some people consider meditation to be anything from 'clearing the mind', to focusing on a single subject. If it's the latter I often times use similar techniques often times before I race or when I have difficulty working out a problem, I go to a quiet area and focus on remembering the track top to bottom and trying to 'ride' certain sections in my head. You've actually made me think of a good idea for preparing for a race actually, thanks.

Yoga and meditation I have nothing against, I don't think there's much in the way of negative research against them as far as general fitness and psychology go, like you said they have a very strong body of evidence for them. All in all though I haven't heard anything against either practice and mostly I've only heard good reviews about the physical benefits of yoga and the mental benefits of meditation, but it's where you draw the line that counts as far as healing physical and mental illness is concerned. Rotator cup damage being healed by yoga I could see, but for something like arthritis I doubt it would be effective, although I may yet be proven wrong there as well. It's the same for meditation, I could see it being beneficial to someone who suffers from non-clinical depression or mild anxiety, but for the more sever forms of these illnesses or for people with brain structure differences (autistics and strong psychopaths), the chance of it being effective seems slim, although again I may yet be proven wrong.

There is one thing you should know about science though, if I were to start exercising using yoga and also used meditated, my experience counts for basically nothing. I can be biased, for or against, I may have other conditions that may accelerate or hinder my progress, I may not report my results properly. The only way to know if it's actually effective, in either case, would be to have a large-scale trial with a few hundred subjects per group and at least two groups, a group undergoing the therapy and a group undergoing no therapy. Preferably, there would be a third group undergoing an traditional SBM therapy to see if it is less or more effective then the SBM therapy. This helps us control for mitigating factors in each subject, and allows us to see if there is a net benefit or not compared to the control group or the SBM group. But a personal story, experience or anecdote proves only that you perceive a benefit, it doesn't mean a benefit exists. So both your experience, and mine as well, are irrelevant.

To make sure I end on a high note though, I want to say again that the medical community seems to be generally positive about yoga's physical benefits, and it is a great system to keep using. The psych community also seems to have a lot of positive things to say about meditation, so I see no harm in continuing to use it, especially if you do find it personally beneficial.

I do have one caveat to that for everyone reading this, if you suffer from a mental or physical disorder that would normally require the intervention of a trained medical professional, please seek one out before using alternative therapies. You may end up using them or being prescribed to use them anyway, but please consult somebody who is trained in the science of medicine first. Unconventional therapies may help some people, but it may not help everyone and sometimes there really is no better way than medical intervention.
flag katinasd
Posted: Oct 26, 2011 at 11:41 Quote
You tell a lot about this without having the experience, but you sound clever and I like what you are saying. Like you, many people are already meditating and doing some sort of yoga without knowing it, it's really a natural thing to do those things.

I won't go into it to far, but I do want to say something about your last words. I would like to encourage everyone to try alternative healing, but to never exclude our western ways. Do it both, in my case, they could not help me here and I had to start meditating, doing yoga and other dig deep stuff.

For everyone who would like to know how to meditate: www.whatmeditationreallyis.com
Meditating is awesome, but you have to start slow and easy.

Enjoy and thanks for the comment.
flag ArmyFork
Posted: Oct 26, 2011 at 11:53 Quote
I'm actually using James Wilson's workout and it incorporates some yoga elements in certain exercises, I have to say that it's actually a lot of fun and quite difficult. I may eventually take it up as complimentary to my workout, but with the current loading on my body I'm a little hesitant to add more strain. I'll look into the meditation site though, I'm curious as to the definition as I seem to encounter many different definitions of the idea of meditation, I'd like to have a cohesive picture of it.
flag burt-reynolds
Posted: Oct 26, 2011 at 12:03 Quote
Actually, just about any exercise that will exhibit range of motion without strong impact will usually help arthritis depending on the severity because of the enhancement of cartilage nutrition. I disagree with your statement about having a mental disorder and seeking western medicine as a cure, specifically meds. This is when alternative medicine can really shine. The meds do nothing but confuse a person and eventually may cause death. I have seen this first hand as my friends brother died from this. Occupational therapists may be helpful with this, not to mention all of the alternative ways that one can gain mental health.
flag Marlfox87
Posted: Oct 26, 2011 at 12:11 Quote
dualsuspensiondave wrote:
not to mention all of the alternative ways that one can gain mental health.
Kinda like biking Wink
flag burt-reynolds
Posted: Oct 26, 2011 at 12:23 Quote
Marlfox87 wrote:
dualsuspensiondave wrote:
not to mention all of the alternative ways that one can gain mental health.
Kinda like biking Wink
Salute
flag PritzelTimo
Posted: Oct 26, 2011 at 12:29 Quote
ArmyFork...you are 23, man. I'm 34 and talking about my life experience as a Pro Bike Rider....
There are many ways to see the World, everyone has his own opinions and everyone has their reasons why they think so.
I respect you have a different way of seeing this, and you should respect mine. Anyway I have to say: Get some life experience
and open your horizon before you just parrot those its not medically proven, scientific validity blah blah.
There are much bigger things in life than numbers and yes, you need more to understand them than blank rationality.

I myself had many bad experiences with conventional doctors (check my article in Dirt UK August Issue) and I see it all the time,
that Bike Riders just take Pain Killers instead of healing the cause for the pain. The only one who wins is the Pharmaceutical Industry.
And its nothing new that who has the money has a powerful voice in the media.

Osteopathy and other alternative traditions are healing the cause. They mostly root in traditional medicine, what means thousands of years
of empiric experience. The young, today conventional western medicine can no doubt be of help in many situations, but from my experience
i say, that poisoning the body with chemicals which suppress the symptoms temporarily but in the end destroy more than help and
not seeing the whole picture of a human being is definitely not my way.





ArmyFork wrote:
Timo, I respect you immensely as a rider and as a luminary in the bike community, but I can't support these ideas. I think you need to really look carefully into what osteopathy is really about and decide then if it really will be effective for you versus a physiotherapist, and investigate what natural medicines you are using to see if they are safe to use or even effective. That said, I'm glad you're bringing attention to fitness, flexibility, general health and the role of the athlete as a brand ambassador, and the proper behaviour expected of a rider. For that I give you mad props and huge respect, all I ask is that you act a little more skeptically before you make these recommendations.

Sources:
http://journals.lww.com/neurologynow/Fulltext/2011/07050/Hidden_Hercules__Actor_Kevin_Sorbo_reveals_his.15.aspx
http://www.skepdic.com/osteopathy.html
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/chiropractic-vertebral-subluxations-science-vs-pseudoscience/
http://skeptoid.com/blog/2011/10/05/a-lesson-in-treating-illness/
http://www.macrumors.com/2011/10/20/steve-jobs-regretted-early-decision-to-delay-cancer-surgery/
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/03/dr_dean_ornish_turn_away_from_the_dark_s.php
flag Marlfox87
Posted: Oct 26, 2011 at 12:41 Quote
@ Timo, is the article you're referring too, the same one found in the German Magazine 'Freeride'. Just picked up the latest edition today and was actually stoked to see an article on this very topic in it. Haven't had a chance to read it yet, but was curious if this was just the translated version of the article you were referring to.
flag PritzelTimo
Posted: Oct 26, 2011 at 12:49 Quote
Marlfox87 wrote:
@ Timo, is the article you're referring too, the same one found in the German Magazine 'Freeride'. Just picked up the latest edition today and was actually stoked to see an article on this very topic in it. Haven't had a chance to read it yet, but was curious if this was just the translated version of the article you were referring to.

Yes its almost the same! pretty happy too that this Story made it into Dirt and Freeride...
flag ArmyFork
Posted: Oct 26, 2011 at 12:53 Quote
dualsuspensiondave wrote:
Actually, just about any exercise that will exhibit range of motion without strong impact will usually help arthritis depending on the severity because of the enhancement of cartilage nutrition. I disagree with your statement about having a mental disorder and seeking western medicine as a cure, specifically meds. This is when alternative medicine can really shine. The meds do nothing but confuse a person and eventually may cause death. I have seen this first hand as my friends brother died from this. Occupational therapists may be helpful with this, not to mention all of the alternative ways that one can gain mental health.

Poor nutrition to a joint is not always the cause of painful inflammation in a joint, it may be a factor but the largest cause is usually degradation over time due to the aging process and the eventual breakdown of the cartilage as the body starts to deteriorate, as we all sadly do over time. Nutrition may help, but it won't necessarily be initiated by specific exercises as nutrients are distributed through the vascular system which will transfer nutrients to site regardless of any specific kinetic activity beyond the movement of the blood. There may be some other benefit from the exercises that occur, but I am not sure that it's due to nutrition.

I do feel sorry for your friends brother, it's tragic to hear of someone who suffered so badly and couldn't be helped by modern medicine, and died as a result. I have no idea why that happened, what he was suffering with and what treatments were involved, I simply don't know so I can't comment specifically on it, but I would like reiterate a point. It's only one case and a single case is not statistically relevant to determining the safety or efficacy of a treatment, as cold as that sounds that is simply fact. You need a large sample group before you can tell if a negative effect is the direct result of the drug and is not simply an outlier in the data. I apologize if that seems offensive to his memory, but this is the way science works and good science tries to avoid making conclusions based on emotion because it can cloud judgement, and we want the clearest answers possible when it comes to having people's lives in a doctors hands. I apologize again if I've offended you, but I have to be honest in this regard.

Can I ask a question though, you've made the suggestion that alternative medicine may have specific treatments that rival or exceed SBM treatments in their effectiveness and/or safety, would you be willing to provide some examples of this? I will try my best to approach the subject fairly and without bias, and I will give both sides their fair shake in the examination of the treatment. I pride myself on being the best skeptic I can be, and in that vein I will do my best to be fair when I approach it.

 


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