frames with similar geometry to P3

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frames with similar geometry to P3
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flag fitnessgeek
Posted: Mar 31, 2015 at 19:15 Quote
I had a stock built 2014 Specialized P3 and liked the geometry, but I sold it to build up a new bike from scratch with higher end components and possibly a nicer frame. I'm 6'4" so liked the geo of the P3. What other frames should I consider? I like the idea of a threaded BB and sliding dropouts. The Large Jackal is on my radar. What else is there for my size? This is mainly for riding pump tracks, dirt jumps, and bmx tracks. Thanks!
flag cmc4130
Posted: Apr 1, 2015 at 12:59 Quote
fitnessgeek wrote:
I had a stock built 2014 Specialized P3 and liked the geometry, but I sold it to build up a new bike from scratch with higher end components and possibly a nicer frame. I'm 6'4" so liked the geo of the P3. What other frames should I consider? I like the idea of a threaded BB and sliding dropouts. The Large Jackal is on my radar. What else is there for my size? This is mainly for riding pump tracks, dirt jumps, and bmx tracks. Thanks!

What do you mean exactly by "sliding dropouts"? Horizontal dropouts?

It appears that the top tube ("actual" not "effective") is 22.5". There are definitely other frames out there with that. Black Market, Transition, Rocky Mountain, maybe NS Bikes....

https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=157522&pagenum=1#commentid5825534
flag fitnessgeek
Posted: Apr 1, 2015 at 20:13 Quote
cmc4130 wrote:
fitnessgeek wrote:
I had a stock built 2014 Specialized P3 and liked the geometry, but I sold it to build up a new bike from scratch with higher end components and possibly a nicer frame. I'm 6'4" so liked the geo of the P3. What other frames should I consider? I like the idea of a threaded BB and sliding dropouts. The Large Jackal is on my radar. What else is there for my size? This is mainly for riding pump tracks, dirt jumps, and bmx tracks. Thanks!

What do you mean exactly by "sliding dropouts"? Horizontal dropouts?

It appears that the top tube ("actual" not "effective") is 22.5". There are definitely other frames out there with that. Black Market, Transition, Rocky Mountain, maybe NS Bikes....

https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=157522&pagenum=1#commentid5825534

By sliding dropouts I mean something similar to the new P3 or Jackal.

Even though the sticker on the P3 says it is 22.5" TT I don't think that is correct. I think the website is correct. It seems transition is measuring their frames the same way and the geometry of the large PBJ is very similar to the P3. Look at the top tube, chainstay, seat tube angle, head tube angle, stack and reach, and you can see they are using the same measurement techniques. I'm not sure where they got the 22.5" measurement. Either way I think stack and reach are the most important sizing considerations. So, other than the Large PBJ and Large Jackal I'm not sure any other frames with similar geometry.

http://www.transitionbikes.com/2015/Bikes_PBJ.cfm?Token={ts_2015-04-01_22:07:17}-9723b9f88bf3b273-354F7C02-C565-C52E-935CD3DDD7929582
flag cmc4130
Posted: Apr 2, 2015 at 11:49 Quote
As I said in the other Specialize P3 thread, I think the Specialized website may incorrectly be saying "actual" when they mean "effective."

Transition and Santa Cruz use an "effective" measurement. (And Transition also cite "reach.")

"Actual" means measuring the BMX way--i.e. along the side or top of the top tube from center of seat tube to center of head tube.

Typically DJ bikes have been:
21.5" actual tt (Small)
22" or 22.25" (Medium)
22.5". (Large)
23". (Large/XL)
flag ricar
Posted: Apr 2, 2015 at 17:27 Quote
fitnessgeek wrote:
I had a stock built 2014 Specialized P3 and liked the geometry, but I sold it to build up a new bike from scratch with higher end components and possibly a nicer frame. I'm 6'4" so liked the geo of the P3. What other frames should I consider? I like the idea of a threaded BB and sliding dropouts. The Large Jackal is on my radar. What else is there for my size? This is mainly for riding pump tracks, dirt jumps, and bmx tracks. Thanks!

The "sliding dropouts" would be horizontal and the "threaded BB" would be a euro BB shell.
flag fitnessgeek
Posted: Apr 2, 2015 at 17:58 Quote
cmc4130 wrote:
As I said in the other Specialize P3 thread, I think the Specialized website may incorrectly be saying "actual" when they mean "effective."

Transition and Santa Cruz use an "effective" measurement. (And Transition also cite "reach.")

"Actual" means measuring the BMX way--i.e. along the side or top of the top tube from center of seat tube to center of head tube.

Typically DJ bikes have been:
21.5" actual tt (Small)
22" or 22.25" (Medium)
22.5". (Large)
23". (Large/XL)

and I'm saying I think the website is correct, but the sticker is incorrect. It makes sense that the horizontal measurement would be higher than the actual on the P3 just as the website states.
flag fitnessgeek
Posted: Apr 2, 2015 at 17:59 Quote
ricar wrote:
fitnessgeek wrote:
I had a stock built 2014 Specialized P3 and liked the geometry, but I sold it to build up a new bike from scratch with higher end components and possibly a nicer frame. I'm 6'4" so liked the geo of the P3. What other frames should I consider? I like the idea of a threaded BB and sliding dropouts. The Large Jackal is on my radar. What else is there for my size? This is mainly for riding pump tracks, dirt jumps, and bmx tracks. Thanks!

The "sliding dropouts" would be horizontal and the "threaded BB" would be a euro BB shell.

sliding dropouts like the Jackal or P3 are different than horizontal dropouts like the Monk and many other DJ frames
flag cmc4130
Posted: Apr 3, 2015 at 16:30 Quote
fitnessgeek wrote:
cmc4130 wrote:
As I said in the other Specialize P3 thread, I think the Specialized website may incorrectly be saying "actual" when they mean "effective."

Transition and Santa Cruz use an "effective" measurement. (And Transition also cite "reach.")

"Actual" means measuring the BMX way--i.e. along the side or top of the top tube from center of seat tube to center of head tube.

Typically DJ bikes have been:
21.5" actual tt (Small)
22" or 22.25" (Medium)
22.5". (Large)
23". (Large/XL)

and I'm saying I think the website is correct, but the sticker is incorrect. It makes sense that the horizontal measurement would be higher than the actual on the P3 just as the website states.


http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/bmxdirt-jump/pseries/p3#geometry

Okay, that may be.... But, would be a very odd/interesting departure from *all* Dirt Jumpers that have existed in the past. 24.1" actual and 24.9" effective, is basically an XXXL top tube.

I've asked the guy who had one to go measure it. Wink
https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=157522&pagenum=2#commentid5827793

Now, I'm wondering if maybe this is being thrown off by the way the seat tube angles back. Everyone knows (especially TRANSITION) that a "reach" measurement from where your feet are to the headset is a better measure of how long a frame is.

2014 P3
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://www.sicklines.com/gallery/data/1051/p3-side.jpg
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://images.ridemonkey.com/index.php?size=full&src=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3177%2F3119657157_40cd7b34d1_o.jpg
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://fcdn.mtbr.com/attachments/urban-dj-park/775231d1361767565-need-help-first-bmx-dj-bike-cockpitsize-blackmarketsoldier.jpg
This bmx article talks about how seat tube angle will change top tube length, between two frames that actually ride more similar meauring from where your feet are ("reach").
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://www.odysseybmx.com/dailyword/archivesV2//2009/03/uktech-frame-sizing-2.jpgHard to say though.... because he says 1 degree of seat tube angle difference contributes to a 0.15" top tube difference.
http://www.odysseybmx.com/dailyword/2005/03/84-isnt-that-bike-a-bit-small-for-you-mate/

Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/YessBMX_seattubeangle_zps31eq2a1f.jpg
flag ricar
Posted: Apr 3, 2015 at 16:56 Quote
fitnessgeek wrote:

sliding dropouts like the Jackal or P3 are different than horizontal dropouts like the Monk and many other DJ frames


Ahhh, adjustable dropouts. Now I got you.
flag fitnessgeek
Posted: Apr 3, 2015 at 19:57 Quote
cmc4130 wrote:
fitnessgeek wrote:
cmc4130 wrote:
As I said in the other Specialize P3 thread, I think the Specialized website may incorrectly be saying "actual" when they mean "effective."

Transition and Santa Cruz use an "effective" measurement. (And Transition also cite "reach.")

"Actual" means measuring the BMX way--i.e. along the side or top of the top tube from center of seat tube to center of head tube.

Typically DJ bikes have been:
21.5" actual tt (Small)
22" or 22.25" (Medium)
22.5". (Large)
23". (Large/XL)

and I'm saying I think the website is correct, but the sticker is incorrect. It makes sense that the horizontal measurement would be higher than the actual on the P3 just as the website states.


http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/bmxdirt-jump/pseries/p3#geometry

Okay, that may be.... But, would be a very odd/interesting departure from *all* Dirt Jumpers that have existed in the past. 24.1" actual and 24.9" effective, is basically an XXXL top tube.

I've asked the guy who had one to go measure it. Wink
https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=157522&pagenum=2#commentid5827793

Now, I'm wondering if maybe this is being thrown off by the way the seat tube angles back. Everyone knows (especially TRANSITION) that a "reach" measurement from where your feet are to the headset is a better measure of how long a frame is.

2014 P3
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://www.sicklines.com/gallery/data/1051/p3-side.jpg
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://images.ridemonkey.com/index.php?size=full&src=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3177%2F3119657157_40cd7b34d1_o.jpg
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://fcdn.mtbr.com/attachments/urban-dj-park/775231d1361767565-need-help-first-bmx-dj-bike-cockpitsize-blackmarketsoldier.jpg
This bmx article talks about how seat tube angle will change top tube length, between two frames that actually ride more similar meauring from where your feet are ("reach").
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://www.odysseybmx.com/dailyword/archivesV2//2009/03/uktech-frame-sizing-2.jpgHard to say though.... because he says 1 degree of seat tube angle difference contributes to a 0.15" top tube difference.
http://www.odysseybmx.com/dailyword/2005/03/84-isnt-that-bike-a-bit-small-for-you-mate/

Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/YessBMX_seattubeangle_zps31eq2a1f.jpg

Yup yup.....the top tube measurements are so long due to the angle of the seat tube. These numbers don't mean much especially on a dirt jump bike. The stack and reach measurements are much better. Unfortunately many companies don't list stack and reach on their dirt jump frames making it hard to compare. So back to my original question is what other frames have similar geometry? I don't think it is as simple as looking at TT length...especially not for my height. I demoed a large Jackal yesterday and I didn't like the geometry as much as my old P3. I may just have to do a custom build on a new P3.
flag hajiwahyu
Posted: Apr 3, 2015 at 20:19 Quote
nice information
thanks all
[IMG]http://mzaqipics.science/8/emosmile2.png[/IMG]
flag cmc4130
Posted: Apr 3, 2015 at 20:27 Quote
fitnessgeek wrote:
Yup yup.....the top tube measurements are so long due to the angle of the seat tube. These numbers don't mean much especially on a dirt jump bike. The stack and reach measurements are much better. Unfortunately many companies don't list stack and reach on their dirt jump frames making it hard to compare. So back to my original question is what other frames have similar geometry? I don't think it is as simple as looking at TT length...especially not for my height. I demoed a large Jackal yesterday and I didn't like the geometry as much as my old P3. I may just have to do a custom build on a new P3.

I encountered a major "reach" snafu when I bought a size large Black Market Killswitch. I was already riding a size large Black Market Mob which has a 22.5"tt (actual). So I bought a 23"tt Killswitch, thinking it would be just a tad longer. Wrong.

Over on this thread....
https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=129186 I lined up the bottom brackets.... Look how much further forward the stem and headtube are on the Killswitch. I don't dislike it; it still rides well, but it definitely feels different. The way I roughly measured it, it was roughly 2.5" inches longer in the "reach" measurement. (Basically a 24.5"tt actual, as compared to a Mob).

Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Blackmarket_Killswitch_CMC006.jpg
As for your quest . . . . I rode my friend's 23" top tube TRANSITION Trail or Park many times. He is 6'4". It had a 23.6 effective. http://www.transitionbikes.com/2012/Bikes_TOP.cfm I'm 6'1" with long legs, and it feels like a very roomy DJ hard tail. They don't sell the Trail or Park anymore, but the PBJ with a 24.2" effective would probably work great for you.

I doubt the P3, when you consider "reach" measurement, is much longer than this. I'd be interested to know if it is.
flag fitnessgeek
Posted: Apr 3, 2015 at 20:43 Quote
cmc4130 wrote:
fitnessgeek wrote:
Yup yup.....the top tube measurements are so long due to the angle of the seat tube. These numbers don't mean much especially on a dirt jump bike. The stack and reach measurements are much better. Unfortunately many companies don't list stack and reach on their dirt jump frames making it hard to compare. So back to my original question is what other frames have similar geometry? I don't think it is as simple as looking at TT length...especially not for my height. I demoed a large Jackal yesterday and I didn't like the geometry as much as my old P3. I may just have to do a custom build on a new P3.

I encountered a major "reach" snafu when I bought a size large Black Market Killswitch. I was already riding a size large Black Market Mob which has a 22.5"tt (actual). So I bought a 23"tt Killswitch, thinking it would be just a tad longer. Wrong.

Over on this thread....
https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=129186 I lined up the bottom brackets.... Look how much further forward the stem and headtube are on the Killswitch. I don't dislike it; it still rides well, but it definitely feels different. The way I roughly measured it, it was roughly 2.5" inches longer in the "reach" measurement. (Basically a 24.5"tt actual, as compared to a Mob).

Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Blackmarket_Killswitch_CMC006.jpg
As for your quest . . . . I rode my friend's 23" top tube TRANSITION Trail or Park many times. He is 6'4". It had a 23.6 effective. http://www.transitionbikes.com/2012/Bikes_TOP.cfm I'm 6'1" with long legs, and it feels like a very roomy DJ hard tail. They don't sell the Trail or Park anymore, but the PBJ with a 24.2" effective would probably work great for you.

I doubt the P3, when you consider "reach" measurement, is much longer than this. I'd be interested to know if it is.

That's interesting to see your bikes lined up at the BB.

The PBJ has very similar geometry to the P3....the PBJ actually has a slightly longer reach, longer wheelbase and shorter effective (horizontal) TT due to the steeper ST. It is a bike I would consider if it had a sliding as opposed to horizontal dropout. My search brings me right back to the frame I had before. Perhaps I'll see something new at Sea Otter in a few weeks.
flag ricar
Posted: Apr 3, 2015 at 21:01 Quote
As a possibility you can try to find wheel base lengths and then remove chain stay lengths. Of course this will vary based on fork length and head angle, but as CMC did, there is really no way to tell on paper. To really find out the difference between frames you have to put them side by side.
flag fitnessgeek
Posted: Apr 3, 2015 at 21:25 Quote
ricar wrote:
As a possibility you can try to find wheel base lengths and then remove chain stay lengths. Of course this will vary based on fork length and head angle, but as CMC did, there is really no way to tell on paper. To really find out the difference between frames you have to put them side by side.

This is a great idea that I didn't consider. I decided to compare the P3 to the PBJ to see how this pans out and it is really accurate.

P3 known data:
wheel base - 1065.5 mm
chainstay - 385
reach - 423

PBJ known data for the large frame:
wheel base - 1075 mm
chainstay - 388
reach - 431

P3 wheelbase (1065.5) - chainstay (385) = 680.5
PBJ wheelbase (1075) - chainstay (38Cool = 687

PBJ (687) - P3 (680.5) = 6.5 mm (PBJ has a 6.5 mm longer reach)

The actual data tells us PBJ reach (431) - P3 reach (423) = 8 mm difference

that's close enough and a good way to estimate....thanks for the tip
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