Death to the "Flow Trail"

PB Forum :: Trail Building
Death to the "Flow Trail"
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flag bigtymemcd
Posted: Jul 1, 2015 at 12:37 Quote
Over the last few years I have seen a huge expansion of the so called "flow trails" essentially double track, groomed, and machine built trails wide enough to drive your SUV down without any trouble. Now while I appreciate the occasional groomer to rip down it seems that a majority of the new trails I see tend to be of this style. Anyone who can actually ride a bike knows that every trail is a flow trail if you have the skills to find and follow the flow. Now, I think the double wide super buff flow trails are making the sport more approachable to the general public, which is great, but at what expense? The mountain in mountain biking is disappearing for the sake of growth and once the mountain is gone from MTB we are all just cyclists and who the hell wants to be that?

So my questions I am posing is this: is mountain biking evolving in the wrong direction? and is sacrificing a core piece of mountain biking worth the added accessibility and expanding the sport?

I say yes, this is the wrong direction and we have explored this avenue enough now to continue in a different direction. While the Flow trail should always have a place in MTB it has expanded beyond where it belongs and I think it's time we put it back in its place!
flag jfkusa
O+ FL
Posted: Jul 2, 2015 at 18:20 Quote
I agree I think trails should be the stacked loop design easy- flow trails. med- flow trail with some rock gardens and a few tables. Advanced and expert- real trails. This gives like 5-10 miles of accessible trails and a nice 2-3 mile warmup before riding the real trails.
flag mcmbike
Posted: Jul 2, 2015 at 18:29 Quote
I got seriously pissed about this whole issue a few years back to the point that I refused to ride on any of the newer trails. But then I realized that the gnarly trails will always be out there, and the flow trails are great for keeping people off of them. It's hard to get funding to build something that only a handful of riders will ride. Like said, you can incorporate these flow trails into your ride to link together good loops and get a good trail warmup in (they're also just nice to cruise on chill days). I think they're overrated and there's way too many of them popping up, but they're awesome for keeping people off your hidden gems. Where I live there's miles of old, gnarly descents that have been here for years, but people don't even know about them because of a few new trails that were built. You never have to worry about cheater lines or people trying to dumb down trails if they don't even know they exist.
flag bigtymemcd
Posted: Jul 3, 2015 at 12:21 Quote
That's a good point mcmbike. Essentially keep the idiots in their own section so you don't have to worry about running into/over them. It is unfortunate that it is so hard to get funding for actual aggressive, technical, and challenging trails so only the intro level trails are getting built. This wouldn't be an issue if the USFS and other gov't entities would just turn a blind eye to people building unsanctioned trails because it really limits how much progression we see. I have been caught digging more than enough times now that I have essentially given up on building. It is a choice of either help build more flow trails and contribute to this beast I loathe or just not build at all, which sucks.This leaves the real riders who have put their blood and sweat into the sport just stuck, hardly able to progress, riding the same few trails over and over.

The stacked loop trails aren't a bad idea, we have a few of them around where I live and that system works relatively well.But It always turns into building 15 miles of beginner/intermediate trails with 2 miles of "expert" level trail that is still, generally speaking, pretty weak.

The uneven building is frustrating. I don't necessarily expect people to build a bunch of trails for me and my skill level, like almost all beginners expect to be catered to... f*cking tourists, but at least leave me to my own vices. Let me build my own trails without prosecuting me because I made a 2 foot wide dirt trail through an area you just logged. I don't need funding, I have my own shovel, simply put the USFS should just leave us alone and let us build. I am sick of this no child left behind everyone gets a ribbon for participation bull!

Maybe it's because we are no longer in the majority as far as our level of riding is concerned, but that doesn't mean we should be pushed aside and forgotten about. The USFS seems like they have become more strict in the last few years about building which is really making things tough. Whatever happened to a few good buds shooting the shit and building some jumps in the woods, why has that become such an issue?
flag Mavrey
Posted: Jul 4, 2015 at 17:54 Quote
Guys, if we want our sport to stay alive, we need those flow trails. This is how new people will get into the sport.
Dont call beginners idiots, they are funding the rest of the Bike Park.

The consumer base is too small to keep any Bike Park alive, we need to expand our consumer base and we can't do this with gnarly terrain. We need accessible trails to get new people on board so can can fund the fun stuff.

I think the sport was invented upside down, it started rough and gnarly so it was hard and scary for people to get into the sport, now bike parks are taking a new approach with easier trails, it doesnt mean they need to be boring.

Too many Bike Park were shut down in the past, if you want your local park to stay open, embrace those Flow Trails.

Cheers.
flag cmc4130
Posted: Jul 10, 2015 at 16:10 Quote
bigtymemcd wrote:
. . . . and machine built trails wide enough to drive your SUV down without any trouble.. . .

I have a feeling the width of the corridor has a lot to do with convenience for heavy machinery. Back when people hand-dug rad jump trails (and still do), we did not clear out wide pathways.

There's no reason you cant have it be singletrack in between jump sections.

Whenever the clueless mountain bike world (I'm talking about the clueless ones, not the ones who know what's up) sees bmx trails like these,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKUUHXCiGRQ

the first thing they ask is HOW DID THEY GET THE MACHINERY BACK THERE?

THEY DIDN'T. These are all hand dug.

Trail building contractors aren't going to hand dig, obviously. But, they should try to take care to build something that is more organic and fits into the terrain. Most contractors want to put a "dirt jump park" in an open field, because it's easier to drive machinery around. That is stupid, the best place for dirt jumps is in the woods, with tree cover. It is protection from sun, wind, etc., (and is a nice place to hang out.....)
flag bigburd
Posted: Jul 11, 2015 at 1:51 Quote
All flow trails do is make natural trails seem more hard than they really are to beginners , pampering new riders with more and more flow tracks will NOT help them in the long run , all it will do is make it more of a shock when they finally ride some thing with roots and local dirt.

And please stop hiding behind this ' we need flow trails to keep industry alive ' bullshit , when I started riding 15 years ago flow trails did not exist , you just went out and found a ' normal ' trail that suited your abilities.
flag bigtymemcd
Posted: Jul 11, 2015 at 13:51 Quote
I'm sure the width has to do with using the machinery. I miss riding and building true single track trails because there seems to be a real lack of new ones getting built these days. At least here in the PNW the forest service is likely to blame for that. There is something to be said for going out and building a trail by hand, the same way something can be said for back country snowboarding, earning your turns so to speak as opposed to just being shuffled to the top effortlessly. Hand built trails are just more personal.

I think it does make the sport seem more friendly, but the whole everyone should be able to ride every trail attitude sucks. Like building table tops on everything, part of the allure of jumping is the consequences if you f*ck up. So I totally agree with you bigburd. At this rate though every trail will be a flow trail in another 10 years.
flag cmc4130
Posted: Jul 11, 2015 at 15:36 Quote
bigtymemcd wrote:
Over the last few years I have seen a huge expansion of the so called "flow trails" essentially double track, groomed, and machine built trails wide enough to drive your SUV down without any trouble. Now while I appreciate the occasional groomer to rip down it seems that a majority of the new trails I see tend to be of this style. Anyone who can actually ride a bike knows that every trail is a flow trail if you have the skills to find and follow the flow. Now, I think the double wide super buff flow trails are making the sport more approachable to the general public, which is great, but at what expense? The mountain in mountain biking is disappearing for the sake of growth and once the mountain is gone from MTB we are all just cyclists and who the hell wants to be that?

So my questions I am posing is this: is mountain biking evolving in the wrong direction? and is sacrificing a core piece of mountain biking worth the added accessibility and expanding the sport?

I say yes, this is the wrong direction and we have explored this avenue enough now to continue in a different direction. While the Flow trail should always have a place in MTB it has expanded beyond where it belongs and I think it's time we put it back in its place!

Are you talking about casual flow trails at local spots?..... or are you talking about flow trails at DH bike parks? Whistler A-Line started a whole thing at DH bike parks and I'm glad it did. There's no question a lot of people want to hit jump, berms, and features while cruising down the mountain.
flag cmc4130
Posted: Jul 11, 2015 at 15:37 Quote
bigtymemcd wrote:
. . . .At this rate though every trail will be a flow trail in another 10 years.



95%+ of trails have been xc singletrack for the history of mountain biking. I still think the vast majority of the mountain bike world doesn't even know what "flow trail" is.
flag mcmbike
Posted: Jul 11, 2015 at 17:37 Quote
There's a huge difference between flow trails and XC singletrack. What I ride daily on XC training rides is about as far from "flow trails" as you can get and the downhills are pretty much straight up DH trails.

There's also a difference between the "flow trails" we're talking about and trails that actually flow. A-line flows well and is fun to ride, but most of the machine built trails that are going for that style end up only really being enjoyed by beginners. The turns are tight, and trying to jump a lot of the rollers pretty much results in you smacking the upside of the next one. Sure there are a lot of machine trails that straight up rock, but I'm pretty sure this thread is about the trend to build mediocre trails everywhere that mimic a beginner version of A-Line. It's about trail networks generally being dummed down for this style of trail.
flag bigtymemcd
Posted: Jul 12, 2015 at 15:46 Quote
ya mcmbike pretty much hit that on the head.
flag vapezilla
Posted: Sep 24, 2015 at 11:06 Quote
bigburd wrote:
All flow trails do is make natural trails seem more hard than they really are to beginners , pampering new riders with more and more flow tracks will NOT help them in the long run , all it will do is make it more of a shock when they finally ride some thing with roots and local dirt.

And please stop hiding behind this ' we need flow trails to keep industry alive ' bullshit , when I started riding 15 years ago flow trails did not exist , you just went out and found a ' normal ' trail that suited your abilities.

AMEN!!
flag vapezilla
Posted: Sep 24, 2015 at 11:12 Quote
What NEXT PAVED TRAILS!!
flag cedarnclay
Posted: Sep 26, 2015 at 3:21 Quote
1.) Existing natural gnarly trails should be left alone. No rogue root 'n' rock removal. Let the trailcrews of those trails who ride them make the call on what gets done.

2.) Advocate for the creation of new flow trails for those guys who want that. Let those dudes who want to berm it up and table it out have that goodness.

I'm lucky. My area has both types and I've put in my time building and riding both. TBH we, as mtbrs, only lose when it becomes a divisive "this, not that" debate.
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