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flag O-7plymaple-O
Posted: Jan 8, 2016 at 3:34 Quote
ricar wrote:
I hate to say but that looks looks a pretty bottom end "good" bike. Might be a cool tool around the track "Dad" bike though.

Tool around "Dad" bike.. That pretty much sums up my bike requirements right now lol.

As for the long seat tubes maybe that's what's gotta be just right for a bmx to look like a bmx. Too long =the mountain bike look. Too short = the dirt jumper look? While shopping for my current bike I was checking out a Sunday cruiser in a shop. And it just wasn't giving me enough bmx vibes. I really like that 24" liquid feedback above. I stare at it every time I look at this thread.
flag ricar
Posted: Jan 8, 2016 at 3:50 Quote
Leg room difference bar to top tube.

My two frames, my DJ and cruiser frames.... You can tell I like the low standover I'm sure. I was into racing BMX as a kid and race frames tend to be sleeker than street/park (back in the day we'd say Freestyle!) frames. That has stayed with me I guess,but I know guys who like to race and a 9" standover. I will admit to having a Holmes back in the day that I loved but that Standard looks more like a 12" than 9".
flag O-7plymaple-O
Posted: Jan 8, 2016 at 6:23 Quote
Oh ya that's super low. So what is it that makes that a cruiser rather than a 24" dirt jumper? Is the riding position more leaned forward on the BMX?
flag cmc4130
Posted: Jan 8, 2016 at 7:06 Quote
ricar wrote:
Man, at least they had the gearing right! I keep looking at that Standard ^^, I can't get over the high standover. I am not a fan of long seat tubes. I know some guys are but I find it makes them look like a tiny mountain bike.

Heh, you're right it's just a personal taste thing. I think that STANDARD custom stays pretty close to the original STANDARD look.

Compare it with this. http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/standard_bykes/77650

The top tube/seat tube junction is taller than the rear tire.

I think you're probably comparing the 22" to a 24" more than to a 20".

See here, the Standard 24" has the top tube / seat tube junction lower than the top of the rear tire:
http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/standard_bykes/33845

His 22" is a scaled-up 20", not a scaled down 24". Cool
flag cmc4130
Posted: Jan 8, 2016 at 7:18 Quote
O-7plymaple-O wrote:
Oh ya that's super low. So what is it that makes that a cruiser rather than a 24" dirt jumper? Is the riding position more leaned forward on the BMX?

The main difference is the 24" DJ-mtb is going to have room for a suspension fork which is taller than the shorter BMX rigid fork. Probably also has a slacker head angle, like maybe 71 versus 74?

As far as the word "cruiser," it's just some weird terminology history. A 24" bmx is not a "cruiser" in the sense of "just for cruising." It's called "cruiser" because of the early BMX racing classifications. Guys racing 24" and 26" were (and still are) said to be racing "cruiser." And back then the 26" BMX bikes did have a more beach cruiser-ish look about them. http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/gt_bicycles/214 http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/cooks_brothers/250 (In fact 26" BMX pre-dated "mountain bikes").

The term "dirt jumper" was invented in the mountain bike world to distinguish from cross-country mtb, etc. It's short for Dirt Jump MTB. In a general sense (I know there are exceptions/caveats), any BMX bike can a dirt jumper, so there's not a need to call one a dirt jumper. Wink
flag O-7plymaple-O
Posted: Jan 8, 2016 at 13:54 Quote
cmc4130 wrote:
O-7plymaple-O wrote:
Oh ya that's super low. So what is it that makes that a cruiser rather than a 24" dirt jumper? Is the riding position more leaned forward on the BMX?

The main difference is the 24" DJ-mtb is going to have room for a suspension fork which is taller than the shorter BMX rigid fork. Probably also has a slacker head angle, like maybe 71 versus 74?

As far as the word "cruiser," it's just some weird terminology history. A 24" bmx is not a "cruiser" in the sense of "just for cruising." It's called "cruiser" because of the early BMX racing classifications. Guys racing 24" and 26" were (and still are) said to be racing "cruiser." And back then the 26" BMX bikes did have a more beach cruiser-ish look about them. http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/gt_bicycles/214 http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/cooks_brothers/250 (In fact 26" BMX pre-dated "mountain bikes").

The term "dirt jumper" was invented in the mountain bike world to distinguish from cross-country mtb, etc. It's short for Dirt Jump MTB. In a general sense (I know there are exceptions/caveats), any BMX bike can a dirt jumper, so there's not a need to call one a dirt jumper. Wink

The color scheme on that 26" GT brings me back! Thanks man that's all good to know.
flag ricar
Posted: Jan 8, 2016 at 19:14 Quote
O-7plymaple-O wrote:
Oh ya that's super low. So what is it that makes that a cruiser rather than a 24" dirt jumper? Is the riding position more leaned forward on the BMX?

Like CMC said, the HA is usually a little slacker on a "DJ" bike, most land between 69-72°. I built that one with a 73 if memory serves and a 73.5 on the "cruiser". The biggest difference to me is the "stack" height, or height between the plane of the BB shell and the plain of the grip height. The BMX has lower bars than the "DJ" or MTB style frame by more than an inch. It's a much more aggressive feel compared to the suspension fork pushing the head tube way up which makes the stem higher. The cruiser (which I still haven't named) is sporting 5" SnM race bars where the Lowballer is sporting a bar with maybe a 1.5" rise but it's still that much taller. When you are used to the low bar height getting on the sus bike it feels like you are in a terminal catwalk and I almost want to constantly try to push the bars down. Unfortunately guys I have talked to say there is no flat bar strong enough to stand up to jumping, they are all based on XC riding or I would have tried that.

Again as CMC said, the term "Cruiser" has been around quite a long time and is often misunderstood.I forget about it having been into racing as a kid when I say cruiser I think 24" BMX but I guess most people thing "cruising" or more like a beach cruiser. I still think "race" every time I hear BMX, to me there is still the distinction between "BMX" and "Freestyle" bikes. Senility is not so slowly sinking in!!

I actually started calling the Lowballer an SBMX, or Suspended BMX because it has more in common with BMX bikes than MTBs but I did not start a trend with that (laughing in the background) so I gave up on the term.
flag O-7plymaple-O
Posted: Jan 9, 2016 at 7:14 Quote
ricar wrote:

Like CMC said, the HA is usually a little slacker on a "DJ" bike, most land between 69-72°. I built that one with a 73 if memory serves and a 73.5 on the "cruiser". The biggest difference to me is the "stack" height, or height between the plane of the BB shell and the plain of the grip height. The BMX has lower bars than the "DJ" or MTB style frame by more than an inch. It's a much more aggressive feel compared to the suspension fork pushing the head tube way up which makes the stem higher. The cruiser (which I still haven't named) is sporting 5" SnM race bars where the Lowballer is sporting a bar with maybe a 1.5" rise but it's still that much taller. When you are used to the low bar height getting on the sus bike it feels like you are in a terminal catwalk and I almost want to constantly try to push the bars down. Unfortunately guys I have talked to say there is no flat bar strong enough to stand up to jumping, they are all based on XC riding or I would have tried that.

Again as CMC said, the term "Cruiser" has been around quite a long time and is often misunderstood.I forget about it having been into racing as a kid when I say cruiser I think 24" BMX but I guess most people thing "cruising" or more like a beach cruiser. I still think "race" every time I hear BMX, to me there is still the distinction between "BMX" and "Freestyle" bikes. Senility is not so slowly sinking in!!

I actually started calling the Lowballer an SBMX, or Suspended BMX because it has more in common with BMX bikes than MTBs but I did not start a trend with that (laughing in the background) so I gave up on the term.

That "stack height" is something I need to consider when getting my next frame. When I was putting together my current bike I was thinking about what would make it feel better on my bad back than my old bike. Decided to increase the stack height by about an inch to get more upwright. Got the difference between the heights of the center of the grips and the center of the crank axle (each measured from the ground). But the bike I got a deal on had me leaning more forward than the old one. While both bikes had bottom load stems and 8.5" bars. Had to go up to 10" bars with a top load and every riser ring I could fit under it to get there. Looks odd but feels good for now. Should have thought of more than the top tube length when I was shopping. Madder
flag cmc4130
Posted: Jan 10, 2016 at 11:36 Quote
O-7plymaple-O wrote:

That "stack height" is something I need to consider when getting my next frame. When I was putting together my current bike I was thinking about what would make it feel better on my bad back than my old bike. Decided to increase the stack height by about an inch to get more upwright. Got the difference between the heights of the center of the grips and the center of the crank axle (each measured from the ground). But the bike I got a deal on had me leaning more forward than the old one. While both bikes had bottom load stems and 8.5" bars. Had to go up to 10" bars with a top load and every riser ring I could fit under it to get there. Looks odd but feels good for now. Should have thought of more than the top tube length when I was shopping. Madder


Note that if you go with 22"s or 24"s, your fork is going to be 1" or 2" taller, meaning that the frame&fork itself makes the stack taller. Roughly speaking, 9" bars on a 22" are like 10" bars on a 20".

I've done a lot of experimenting over the last 10 years, and I think that with modern street/park/trails frames, people are just starting to really think about proportional sizing. For the longest time BMX tried to convince people that it was a one-size-fits-all bike, with minor adjustments for top tube and bar height. It really isn't, and shouldn't be. Just like snowboarding, surfing, or anything else, where you match up the equipment to your height and/or style of riding. Wink

Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/geometry-BMX.jpg
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://fcdn.mtbr.com/attachments/urban-dj-park/775231d1361767565-need-help-first-bmx-dj-bike-cockpitsize-blackmarketsoldier.jpg
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://www.sicklines.com/news-images/reach_stack.jpg
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://img.bikecad.ca/1427204681816.png
But also, when going from 20" BMX to 24"and 26", note that you get "stack" height not just from the height of your bars, but also from the 24" or 26" fork being taller AND from the bottom bracket being lower, relative to axle level.

Indust Cuatro 24" with 8" bars and Indust 2ton 22" with 9" bars
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/InDust_2ton_and_Cuatrov2001.jpg
Fly Micromachine 20" (19"tt with 8"-ish bars) and Stout SPF 22" (21"tt with 9" bars). (Note that there's an exaggerated difference between these because the 20" tires are 1.95"s, but the 22" tires are 2.2"s and taller).
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/FLY-Micromachine20_STOUT-SPF22_zpsciyjptsx.jpg
Macneil Deuce Deuce 20" (22"tt with 9" bars) and Faction Zeitgeist 22" (21.25"tt with 8.25" bars)
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Macneil-20---Faction-22.jpg
And Faction Zeitgeist 22" next to Homeless Mack 20"
Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Homeless_Mack__and_FACTION_Zeitgeist002.jpgUnsecure image, only https images allowed: http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Homeless_Mack__and_FACTION_Zeitgeist009.jpgUnsecure image, only https images allowed: http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh138/upsetbmx/Homeless_Mack__and_FACTION_Zeitgeist006.jpg
flag O-7plymaple-O
Posted: Jan 10, 2016 at 21:15 Quote
cmc4130 wrote:



Note that if you go with 22"s or 24"s, your fork is going to be 1" or 2" taller, meaning that the frame&fork itself makes the stack taller. Roughly speaking, 9" bars on a 22" are like 10" bars on a 20".

I've done a lot of experimenting over the last 10 years, and I think that with modern street/park/trails frames, people are just starting to really think about proportional sizing. For the longest time BMX tried to convince people that it was a one-size-fits-all bike, with minor adjustments for top tube and bar height. It really isn't, and shouldn't be. Just like snowboarding, surfing, or anything else, where you match up the equipment to your height and/or style of riding. Wink

So as a general rule the bigger the wheels the more upwright the riding position through a bigger stack height? If so that would be a good reason to go up in wheel size. For me anyways. Right now it feels better. But I used to like 8.5" bars better than my old 9"ers.

Your right BMX never seemed to cater to people of different sizes much. I think it's because most BMXers are young, strong and can adapt to a wide range of frame geometry and bar sizes. When I was young and everyone tilted their bars way forward thanks to the old head tube angles I would choose the angle acoording to what looked good and just get used to it. Never gave any thought to the drastic changes being made to the cockpit. Now my body doesn't work that way!

Thanks for those diagrams. I always thought the cockpit was measured from the center of the bottom bracket to the bar and not straight across the virtical parralel intersecting lines like that. I'm learning a lot from you guys!
flag cmc4130
Posted: Jan 10, 2016 at 21:40 Quote
O-7plymaple-O wrote:
cmc4130 wrote:



Note that if you go with 22"s or 24"s, your fork is going to be 1" or 2" taller, meaning that the frame&fork itself makes the stack taller. Roughly speaking, 9" bars on a 22" are like 10" bars on a 20".

I've done a lot of experimenting over the last 10 years, and I think that with modern street/park/trails frames, people are just starting to really think about proportional sizing. For the longest time BMX tried to convince people that it was a one-size-fits-all bike, with minor adjustments for top tube and bar height. It really isn't, and shouldn't be. Just like snowboarding, surfing, or anything else, where you match up the equipment to your height and/or style of riding. Wink

So as a general rule the bigger the wheels the more upwright the riding position through a bigger stack height? If so that would be a good reason to go up in wheel size. For me anyways. Right now it feels better. But I used to like 8.5" bars better than my old 9"ers.

Your right BMX never seemed to cater to people of different sizes much. I think it's because most BMXers are young, strong and can adapt to a wide range of frame geometry and bar sizes. When I was young and everyone tilted their bars way forward thanks to the old head tube angles I would choose the angle acoording to what looked good and just get used to it. Never gave any thought to the drastic changes being made to the cockpit. Now my body doesn't work that way!

Thanks for those diagrams. I always thought the cockpit was measured from the center of the bottom bracket to the bar and not straight across the virtical parralel intersecting lines like that. I'm learning a lot from you guys!

Yeah, I've realized through all this experimentation that there's also a relationship between top tube length and grip height. Basically, if your grips are further out in front of you, they also have to be taller, to preserve the angle of your back. Guys who ride short top tube bikes can have lower handlebars. But, if you have a long top tube bike, you have to bring the bars up, or else you're going to kill your low back. See some more here:
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=594394
flag O-7plymaple-O
Posted: Jan 11, 2016 at 6:36 Quote
cmc4130 wrote:
Yeah, I've realized through all this experimentation that there's also a relationship between top tube length and grip height. Basically, if your grips are further out in front of you, they also have to be taller, to preserve the angle of your back. Guys who ride short top tube bikes can have lower handlebars. But, if you have a long top tube bike, you have to bring the bars up, or else you're going to kill your low back. See some more here:
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=594394

That's what made me decide to start looking at the bigger bars to change my position. I was trying to adjust the bars by making them closer to get me more upright. But could only go so close until my knees/knee pads were hitting them. Had nowhere to go but up. If my back doesn't seem to be getting any better this year on the 20" I will probably bump up to a 24"
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