Suspension SETUP, a 'how to' guide...

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Suspension SETUP, a 'how to' guide...
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flag singdinger
O+
Posted: Jul 30, 2016 at 6:31 Quote
mtbcali1234 wrote:
Hey everyone, I just got a Float X2 was hoping one of you could help me out. I just found this thread so I'm sorry if this has been asked before. I have been bottoming out my Tranny patrol recently (I have my sag set correctly at 30%) but if I understand correctly I can either adjust the air spring ( add volume spacers) or add HSC damping to prevent bottom out. How would each effect ride quality and is one solution better than the other? Thanks ahead of time
I'd say that adding spacers is the way to go you'll be able to keep the small bump compliance with the it ramping up as you get further into the travel. Adjusting the compression dampening will make the ride stiffer but will keep the shock fairly linear in the feel through the travel
flag vesania
Posted: Aug 5, 2016 at 13:09 Quote
Has anyone noticed a difference in the optimal sag settings for Rockshox vs Fox?

I weight 145 lb (66 kg) and have a large 2015 YT AL comp with medium front spring in boxxer team and 200 lb spring on vivid r2c. Sag is 17% in front and 24% in rear. I ride mostly steep rocky/rough downhill trails. Bike feels good. Jumps and handles well.

However, I rode my friend's 2014 Trek Session 88 with Fox 40R and DHX RC2 a few times. Sag is a little less than mine at 16% in front and 22% in rear. Thing is that the suspension on the Trek feels so much better. Even though it has slightly stiffer suspension (based on sag), it is way plusher on the rough stuff (like a pillow) and seems to bottom out on drops about the same, if not less. I can't tell any difference between the bikes in the parking lot, but on the steep rocky trails it is clearly different. Both feel equally good on bigger jumps. I have LSC full open. I've tried nearly all rebound settings on my rockshox equipped YT a bunch and still can't get the same performance as the Fox. My suspension was recently serviced also.

So, it seems/feels that the Rockshox fork and shock are stiffer even though they are setup with a bit more sag. I'm quite confused. I've always read that rockshox and fox were similar performance (I've only had marzocchi before this). Anyone else had a similar experience? Anyone have an explanation for the difference?

I might try a soft spring in the boxxer team, but I can't drop the spring rate on the rear as 200 lb is the lowest. Might go with an air shock to drop the spring rate.

Any thoughts or recommendations? (Sorry, I also posted this in the YT thread without much luck - hoping to get a broader audience with this thread). Thanks
flag gabriel-mission9
Posted: Aug 5, 2016 at 17:34 Quote
vesania wrote:
Has anyone noticed a difference in the optimal sag settings for Rockshox vs Fox?

I weight 145 lb (66 kg) and have a large 2015 YT AL comp with medium front spring in boxxer team and 200 lb spring on vivid r2c. Sag is 17% in front and 24% in rear. I ride mostly steep rocky/rough downhill trails. Bike feels good. Jumps and handles well.

However, I rode my friend's 2014 Trek Session 88 with Fox 40R and DHX RC2 a few times. Sag is a little less than mine at 16% in front and 22% in rear. Thing is that the suspension on the Trek feels so much better. Even though it has slightly stiffer suspension (based on sag), it is way plusher on the rough stuff (like a pillow) and seems to bottom out on drops about the same, if not less. I can't tell any difference between the bikes in the parking lot, but on the steep rocky trails it is clearly different. Both feel equally good on bigger jumps. I have LSC full open. I've tried nearly all rebound settings on my rockshox equipped YT a bunch and still can't get the same performance as the Fox. My suspension was recently serviced also.

So, it seems/feels that the Rockshox fork and shock are stiffer even though they are setup with a bit more sag. I'm quite confused. I've always read that rockshox and fox were similar performance (I've only had marzocchi before this). Anyone else had a similar experience? Anyone have an explanation for the difference?

I might try a soft spring in the boxxer team, but I can't drop the spring rate on the rear as 200 lb is the lowest. Might go with an air shock to drop the spring rate.

Any thoughts or recommendations? (Sorry, I also posted this in the YT thread without much luck - hoping to get a broader audience with this thread). Thanks

16% sag on your forks, 17% on his. Really? thats some pretty damn accurate measuring. Sag is effected by things other than just spring rate. Head angle, stem length, chainstay length, frame linkage design, stiction, ifp pressure etc. Just cos one fork sags more than the other doesnt necessarily mean its sprung any softer. Damping also plays a massive role in how stiff a fork feels while riding. Frame design also plays a massive part in how the rear end feels. The Session is less progressive than the YT which will lead to exactly the effect you are feeling.

What damper do you have in your boxxers? If its an r2c2, then it is almost certainly bent and causing you massive stiction problems. Seriously. All r2c2s are basically faulty. Upgrading the damper to something nicer will make a huge difference.

A spring bearing will make your rear shock feel a little softer, without getting a lighter spring, so that might be worth trying. If you are riding steep tracks, more sag on the orks probably isnt a good idea. I'd stick with your current spring and make sure the fork chassis isnt causing excess stiction.
flag Clarkeh
Posted: Aug 5, 2016 at 18:11 Quote
The R2C2 on my WC was the best fork I've ever ridden. Must be lucky Big Grin
flag goytay
Posted: Aug 5, 2016 at 21:47 Quote
Clarkeh wrote:
The R2C2 on my WC was the best fork I've ever ridden. Must be lucky Big Grin

Ditto, no problems here with mine.
flag gabriel-mission9
Posted: Aug 6, 2016 at 4:24 Quote
I have worked on many r2c2s, every single one has had exactly the same issue. The damper rod sits off center in the lower leg and rubs hard against the inside of the stanchion. The fork still goes up and down and stuff, but is by no means plush. I have even owned 3 sets myself, even thought 1 of them worked ok, but when it came time for their first service (after a month of riding) the damping oil has come out black due to the enormous amount of wear caused to the inside of the stanchion. RS warrantied all of them without question, because they know they are all faulty. Finally sent me a charger equipped model and I have not had a single issue since. (well, apart from the standard seals being a bit crap, but pike seals are an incredibly simple fix for that) This is why the charger damper makes such a night and day difference. Its not the most amazing damper ever, but it does work, and is fairly impervious to poor casting tolerances on the lowers so it makes the fork feel a shit load plusher than any r2c2. You can fix the r2c2, if you buy a lathe and an end mill, to machine the bottom of the inside of the lowers flat, then drill the hole out until its actually central, then fit a sleeve to bring the hole back down to the correct size. However this is a PITA and fitting a charger kinda sidesteps the issue anyway.
flag vesania
Posted: Aug 6, 2016 at 8:11 Quote
gabriel-mission9 wrote:
vesania wrote:
Has anyone noticed a difference in the optimal sag settings for Rockshox vs Fox?

I weight 145 lb (66 kg) and have a large 2015 YT AL comp with medium front spring in boxxer team and 200 lb spring on vivid r2c. Sag is 17% in front and 24% in rear. I ride mostly steep rocky/rough downhill trails. Bike feels good. Jumps and handles well.

However, I rode my friend's 2014 Trek Session 88 with Fox 40R and DHX RC2 a few times. Sag is a little less than mine at 16% in front and 22% in rear. Thing is that the suspension on the Trek feels so much better. Even though it has slightly stiffer suspension (based on sag), it is way plusher on the rough stuff (like a pillow) and seems to bottom out on drops about the same, if not less. I can't tell any difference between the bikes in the parking lot, but on the steep rocky trails it is clearly different. Both feel equally good on bigger jumps. I have LSC full open. I've tried nearly all rebound settings on my rockshox equipped YT a bunch and still can't get the same performance as the Fox. My suspension was recently serviced also.

So, it seems/feels that the Rockshox fork and shock are stiffer even though they are setup with a bit more sag. I'm quite confused. I've always read that rockshox and fox were similar performance (I've only had marzocchi before this). Anyone else had a similar experience? Anyone have an explanation for the difference?

I might try a soft spring in the boxxer team, but I can't drop the spring rate on the rear as 200 lb is the lowest. Might go with an air shock to drop the spring rate.

Any thoughts or recommendations? (Sorry, I also posted this in the YT thread without much luck - hoping to get a broader audience with this thread). Thanks

16% sag on your forks, 17% on his. Really? thats some pretty damn accurate measuring. Sag is effected by things other than just spring rate. Head angle, stem length, chainstay length, frame linkage design, stiction, ifp pressure etc. Just cos one fork sags more than the other doesnt necessarily mean its sprung any softer. Damping also plays a massive role in how stiff a fork feels while riding. Frame design also plays a massive part in how the rear end feels. The Session is less progressive than the YT which will lead to exactly the effect you are feeling.

What damper do you have in your boxxers? If its an r2c2, then it is almost certainly bent and causing you massive stiction problems. Seriously. All r2c2s are basically faulty. Upgrading the damper to something nicer will make a huge difference.

A spring bearing will make your rear shock feel a little softer, without getting a lighter spring, so that might be worth trying. If you are riding steep tracks, more sag on the orks probably isnt a good idea. I'd stick with your current spring and make sure the fork chassis isnt causing excess stiction.

Good thoughts - thanks Gabriel-Mission9. Yeah, had a friend measure with a tape measure - we took measurements multiple times after bouncing on the bike a bunch, and the numbers came out about the same each time. I have the 2015 boxxer team with charger damper and it was recently serviced.

Main thing is that front and rear, sag was more on YT, but felt stiffer - and I've tried a lot of different settings. Any settings combination I should try that I might not have?

Good points on the progressiveness of the YT. I suppose that would make medium to large hits feel harder. But what about the front?

I noticed on their websites, that Fox recommends 15 - 20% sag. Rockshox recommends 20 to 30%.

I'm thinking about getting an air shock in the rear on the YT to allow me to drop sag to 30%, then go with the softer spring (as recommended by Rockshox website for my weight) to get to about 20% in front.

What do you think?
flag gabriel-mission9
Posted: Aug 6, 2016 at 13:52 Quote
vesania wrote:
gabriel-mission9 wrote:
vesania wrote:
Has anyone noticed a difference in the optimal sag settings for Rockshox vs Fox?

I weight 145 lb (66 kg) and have a large 2015 YT AL comp with medium front spring in boxxer team and 200 lb spring on vivid r2c. Sag is 17% in front and 24% in rear. I ride mostly steep rocky/rough downhill trails. Bike feels good. Jumps and handles well.

However, I rode my friend's 2014 Trek Session 88 with Fox 40R and DHX RC2 a few times. Sag is a little less than mine at 16% in front and 22% in rear. Thing is that the suspension on the Trek feels so much better. Even though it has slightly stiffer suspension (based on sag), it is way plusher on the rough stuff (like a pillow) and seems to bottom out on drops about the same, if not less. I can't tell any difference between the bikes in the parking lot, but on the steep rocky trails it is clearly different. Both feel equally good on bigger jumps. I have LSC full open. I've tried nearly all rebound settings on my rockshox equipped YT a bunch and still can't get the same performance as the Fox. My suspension was recently serviced also.

So, it seems/feels that the Rockshox fork and shock are stiffer even though they are setup with a bit more sag. I'm quite confused. I've always read that rockshox and fox were similar performance (I've only had marzocchi before this). Anyone else had a similar experience? Anyone have an explanation for the difference?

I might try a soft spring in the boxxer team, but I can't drop the spring rate on the rear as 200 lb is the lowest. Might go with an air shock to drop the spring rate.

Any thoughts or recommendations? (Sorry, I also posted this in the YT thread without much luck - hoping to get a broader audience with this thread). Thanks

16% sag on your forks, 17% on his. Really? thats some pretty damn accurate measuring. Sag is effected by things other than just spring rate. Head angle, stem length, chainstay length, frame linkage design, stiction, ifp pressure etc. Just cos one fork sags more than the other doesnt necessarily mean its sprung any softer. Damping also plays a massive role in how stiff a fork feels while riding. Frame design also plays a massive part in how the rear end feels. The Session is less progressive than the YT which will lead to exactly the effect you are feeling.

What damper do you have in your boxxers? If its an r2c2, then it is almost certainly bent and causing you massive stiction problems. Seriously. All r2c2s are basically faulty. Upgrading the damper to something nicer will make a huge difference.

A spring bearing will make your rear shock feel a little softer, without getting a lighter spring, so that might be worth trying. If you are riding steep tracks, more sag on the orks probably isnt a good idea. I'd stick with your current spring and make sure the fork chassis isnt causing excess stiction.

Good thoughts - thanks Gabriel-Mission9. Yeah, had a friend measure with a tape measure - we took measurements multiple times after bouncing on the bike a bunch, and the numbers came out about the same each time. I have the 2015 boxxer team with charger damper and it was recently serviced.

Main thing is that front and rear, sag was more on YT, but felt stiffer - and I've tried a lot of different settings. Any settings combination I should try that I might not have?

Good points on the progressiveness of the YT. I suppose that would make medium to large hits feel harder. But what about the front?

I noticed on their websites, that Fox recommends 15 - 20% sag. Rockshox recommends 20 to 30%.

I'm thinking about getting an air shock in the rear on the YT to allow me to drop sag to 30%, then go with the softer spring (as recommended by Rockshox website for my weight) to get to about 20% in front.

What do you think?

Adding a bit more rear sag, certainly for steeper or rougher tracks is probably not a bad idea. Im surprised you get so little sag on the yt with the softest spring rate available. a friend of mine rides one and weighs about 155lbs. Dunno what spring he is running, think its whatever came as stock on the medium Tues, so I doubt its the lightest spring available. He gets 30 possibly even 35% sag.

When you say your bike feels stiffer in real rough sections, its hard to know exactly what you are feeling. It could be that your bike is indeed set up too hard, in which case lighter damping settings may be in order. However it could equally well be that your dampers are set up too soft, so your bike is using a lot of travel when riding, even though it doesnt sag much. This means when you smash it through repeated hits, you end up nearly bottoming out. If you hit the next bump with your sus still very compressed its gonna feel really stiff on that hit. Maybe slightly harder damping might help to keep the ride height higher, leaving you more travel for absorbing big hits.

As I say though, your fork sag doesnt sound far off. Maybe a little more rear sag would help, but then the bikes gonna feel worse on jumpy or flowy tracks.
flag vesania
Posted: Aug 8, 2016 at 22:09 Quote
gabriel-mission9 wrote:
vesania wrote:
gabriel-mission9 wrote:


16% sag on your forks, 17% on his. Really? thats some pretty damn accurate measuring. Sag is effected by things other than just spring rate. Head angle, stem length, chainstay length, frame linkage design, stiction, ifp pressure etc. Just cos one fork sags more than the other doesnt necessarily mean its sprung any softer. Damping also plays a massive role in how stiff a fork feels while riding. Frame design also plays a massive part in how the rear end feels. The Session is less progressive than the YT which will lead to exactly the effect you are feeling.

What damper do you have in your boxxers? If its an r2c2, then it is almost certainly bent and causing you massive stiction problems. Seriously. All r2c2s are basically faulty. Upgrading the damper to something nicer will make a huge difference.

A spring bearing will make your rear shock feel a little softer, without getting a lighter spring, so that might be worth trying. If you are riding steep tracks, more sag on the orks probably isnt a good idea. I'd stick with your current spring and make sure the fork chassis isnt causing excess stiction.

Good thoughts - thanks Gabriel-Mission9. Yeah, had a friend measure with a tape measure - we took measurements multiple times after bouncing on the bike a bunch, and the numbers came out about the same each time. I have the 2015 boxxer team with charger damper and it was recently serviced.

Main thing is that front and rear, sag was more on YT, but felt stiffer - and I've tried a lot of different settings. Any settings combination I should try that I might not have?

Good points on the progressiveness of the YT. I suppose that would make medium to large hits feel harder. But what about the front?

I noticed on their websites, that Fox recommends 15 - 20% sag. Rockshox recommends 20 to 30%.

I'm thinking about getting an air shock in the rear on the YT to allow me to drop sag to 30%, then go with the softer spring (as recommended by Rockshox website for my weight) to get to about 20% in front.

What do you think?

Adding a bit more rear sag, certainly for steeper or rougher tracks is probably not a bad idea. Im surprised you get so little sag on the yt with the softest spring rate available. a friend of mine rides one and weighs about 155lbs. Dunno what spring he is running, think its whatever came as stock on the medium Tues, so I doubt its the lightest spring available. He gets 30 possibly even 35% sag.

When you say your bike feels stiffer in real rough sections, its hard to know exactly what you are feeling. It could be that your bike is indeed set up too hard, in which case lighter damping settings may be in order. However it could equally well be that your dampers are set up too soft, so your bike is using a lot of travel when riding, even though it doesnt sag much. This means when you smash it through repeated hits, you end up nearly bottoming out. If you hit the next bump with your sus still very compressed its gonna feel really stiff on that hit. Maybe slightly harder damping might help to keep the ride height higher, leaving you more travel for absorbing big hits.

As I say though, your fork sag doesnt sound far off. Maybe a little more rear sag would help, but then the bikes gonna feel worse on jumpy or flowy tracks.

thanks, good thoughts
flag dhftw1231
Posted: Aug 12, 2016 at 23:32 Quote
Hi guys, im new to this thread and I was just looking for a few experienced words of advice on bottomless token setup
Ive got a 2017 Reign 1 on its way to my LBS for me and its has a Lyrik up front. Me being a big guy (6"4' 90kg) i was wondering how many bottomless tokens i should put in it. and what psi setting are people running on their lyriks?
flag Tristorr
Posted: Aug 13, 2016 at 1:35 Quote
vesania wrote:
gabriel-mission9 wrote:
vesania wrote:
Has anyone noticed a difference in the optimal sag settings for Rockshox vs Fox?

I weight 145 lb (66 kg) and have a large 2015 YT AL comp with medium front spring in boxxer team and 200 lb spring on vivid r2c. Sag is 17% in front and 24% in rear. I ride mostly steep rocky/rough downhill trails. Bike feels good. Jumps and handles well.

However, I rode my friend's 2014 Trek Session 88 with Fox 40R and DHX RC2 a few times. Sag is a little less than mine at 16% in front and 22% in rear. Thing is that the suspension on the Trek feels so much better. Even though it has slightly stiffer suspension (based on sag), it is way plusher on the rough stuff (like a pillow) and seems to bottom out on drops about the same, if not less. I can't tell any difference between the bikes in the parking lot, but on the steep rocky trails it is clearly different. Both feel equally good on bigger jumps. I have LSC full open. I've tried nearly all rebound settings on my rockshox equipped YT a bunch and still can't get the same performance as the Fox. My suspension was recently serviced also.

So, it seems/feels that the Rockshox fork and shock are stiffer even though they are setup with a bit more sag. I'm quite confused. I've always read that rockshox and fox were similar performance (I've only had marzocchi before this). Anyone else had a similar experience? Anyone have an explanation for the difference?

I might try a soft spring in the boxxer team, but I can't drop the spring rate on the rear as 200 lb is the lowest. Might go with an air shock to drop the spring rate.

Any thoughts or recommendations? (Sorry, I also posted this in the YT thread without much luck - hoping to get a broader audience with this thread). Thanks

16% sag on your forks, 17% on his. Really? thats some pretty damn accurate measuring. Sag is effected by things other than just spring rate. Head angle, stem length, chainstay length, frame linkage design, stiction, ifp pressure etc. Just cos one fork sags more than the other doesnt necessarily mean its sprung any softer. Damping also plays a massive role in how stiff a fork feels while riding. Frame design also plays a massive part in how the rear end feels. The Session is less progressive than the YT which will lead to exactly the effect you are feeling.

What damper do you have in your boxxers? If its an r2c2, then it is almost certainly bent and causing you massive stiction problems. Seriously. All r2c2s are basically faulty. Upgrading the damper to something nicer will make a huge difference.

A spring bearing will make your rear shock feel a little softer, without getting a lighter spring, so that might be worth trying. If you are riding steep tracks, more sag on the orks probably isnt a good idea. I'd stick with your current spring and make sure the fork chassis isnt causing excess stiction.

Good thoughts - thanks Gabriel-Mission9. Yeah, had a friend measure with a tape measure - we took measurements multiple times after bouncing on the bike a bunch, and the numbers came out about the same each time. I have the 2015 boxxer team with charger damper and it was recently serviced.

Main thing is that front and rear, sag was more on YT, but felt stiffer - and I've tried a lot of different settings. Any settings combination I should try that I might not have?

Good points on the progressiveness of the YT. I suppose that would make medium to large hits feel harder. But what about the front?

I noticed on their websites, that Fox recommends 15 - 20% sag. Rockshox recommends 20 to 30%.

I'm thinking about getting an air shock in the rear on the YT to allow me to drop sag to 30%, then go with the softer spring (as recommended by Rockshox website for my weight) to get to about 20% in front.

What do you think?

I thought you weren't meant to bounce the bike when you measure the sag? Aren't you meant to just place your weight on the bike, as sag is for the weight of the rider, which is why its different for each person. Just stand on the bike and measure, that should give you an accurate sag percentage.

I know there are multiply ways to set sag but boucing the bike to me just seems wrong, when its the natures rest position of the forks and shock with the ride on the bike.
flag gpgalanis
Posted: Aug 13, 2016 at 1:56 Quote
You bounce the bike to brake friction and then rest. Also you should have everything (rebound, compression) open.

Also for the friend asking about bottomless tokens it is a matter or preference. Less tokens = more linear behaviour. More tokens = more progressive behaviour. On top of this more tokens will allow you to run lower psi and have better small bump sensitivity but also still don't bottom your fork top easily.
flag gabriel-mission9
Posted: Aug 13, 2016 at 3:33 Quote
Yep, bounce around to free up suspension, then sit still and allow it to settle to its natural sag position. then measure. unless you have serious stiction issues, there is no need to open the compression and rebound valving first. They should not effect sag at all
flag talkingspoon
Posted: Aug 13, 2016 at 15:01 Quote
valving question. i have a 2016 monarch rl and it doesnt handle the high spd hits at the bike park very well. i know its more of a trail shock but thats what i have for now. new shock isnt an option till next year, so revalving it is. my question is, what shim thickness should i change in the hsc stack to handle it better. there is 4 22x 0.1mm and 1 22x0.2mm
flag gabriel-mission9
Posted: Aug 13, 2016 at 15:19 Quote
william4269 wrote:
valving question. i have a 2016 monarch rl and it doesnt handle the high spd hits at the bike park very well. i know its more of a trail shock but thats what i have for now. new shock isnt an option till next year, so revalving it is. my question is, what shim thickness should i change in the hsc stack to handle it better. there is 4 22x 0.1mm and 1 22x0.2mm

Its really f*cking complicated. This might help: http://www.shimrestackor.com/

 


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