Reach and stack based sizing for mountain bikes
Dec 18, 2008
News Source: Transition Bikes
In a joint effort between Turner and Transition bikes, a new standard for mountain bike frame sizing has been introduced. This new standard is based around reach and stack measurements, and is intended to clarify bike fit across bike models and brands.
In a joint effort between Turner and Transition bikes, a new standard for mountain bike frame sizing has been introduced. This new standard is based around reach and stack measurements, and is intended to clarify bike fit across bike models and brands.
The evolution of mountain bikes has made the old system of top tube and seat tube based sizing irrelevant. The wide range in seat tube angles and bottom bracket heights can create a situation where one bike could feel longer or taller than another frame with the same measurements. Once a rider is in a standing position, the fit and feel of their bike’s cockpit is determined exclusively by the handlebar and pedals. Finding the specific geometric relationship between those two points is the only way to accurately compare the fit and feel of different bicycle frames.
“I was really stoked to get the call from Sam at Transition Bikes regarding a new method of measuring mountain bikes, especially those used for technical riding like our DHR. For years I have not listed a top tube measurement for the DHR as I knew it was irrelevant in comparing the fit of our bike with other brands,” says David Turner. “The great thing about this sizing method is that anyone with a piece of string with a weight on it and a measuring tape can accurately measure their current bikes. The rider can then compare their current bike to any brand using Reach and Stack and know exactly how it will fit without even riding it.”
The horizontal distance from the bottom bracket center to the top of the headtube centerline is referred to as reach. The vertical distance between these two points is known as stack. By comparing the reach and stack on different frame models, the rider is able to identify exactly how their bike will fit and feel on the trail. This system eliminates any uncertainty created by the seat tube angle, and forever drops the need for “actual” and “effective” top tube measurements. The reach and stack of a frame is the most important sizing information for a freeride or downhill rider but it is extremely valuable for trail riders and XC racers as well.
“I was aware that Turner was using the reach number to size their DHR, but under the name cockpit; so I approached David Turner with the idea that this should be an industry standard measurement,” said Sam Burkhardt from Transition Bikes. “Dave expressed interest in adding a vertical component and going forward with an industry standard. We chose the terms reach and stack after Kris Wehage from E.13 Components pointed out the use of the same measurements in the Time Trial and Triathlon communities. Rather than create a new name, we felt it would be easier for manufacturers and riders to adopt the system using existing names.”
Turner and Transition bikes encourage all mountain bike manufacturers to include these numbers on their specification charts for consistency in the industry, and to aid rider’s looking for the best possible fit for their body type and riding style.
For more information on reach and stack, or help in understanding the new sizing standard please visit:
www.turnerbikes.com
www.transitionbikes.com
“I was really stoked to get the call from Sam at Transition Bikes regarding a new method of measuring mountain bikes, especially those used for technical riding like our DHR. For years I have not listed a top tube measurement for the DHR as I knew it was irrelevant in comparing the fit of our bike with other brands,” says David Turner. “The great thing about this sizing method is that anyone with a piece of string with a weight on it and a measuring tape can accurately measure their current bikes. The rider can then compare their current bike to any brand using Reach and Stack and know exactly how it will fit without even riding it.”
The horizontal distance from the bottom bracket center to the top of the headtube centerline is referred to as reach. The vertical distance between these two points is known as stack. By comparing the reach and stack on different frame models, the rider is able to identify exactly how their bike will fit and feel on the trail. This system eliminates any uncertainty created by the seat tube angle, and forever drops the need for “actual” and “effective” top tube measurements. The reach and stack of a frame is the most important sizing information for a freeride or downhill rider but it is extremely valuable for trail riders and XC racers as well.
“I was aware that Turner was using the reach number to size their DHR, but under the name cockpit; so I approached David Turner with the idea that this should be an industry standard measurement,” said Sam Burkhardt from Transition Bikes. “Dave expressed interest in adding a vertical component and going forward with an industry standard. We chose the terms reach and stack after Kris Wehage from E.13 Components pointed out the use of the same measurements in the Time Trial and Triathlon communities. Rather than create a new name, we felt it would be easier for manufacturers and riders to adopt the system using existing names.”
Turner and Transition bikes encourage all mountain bike manufacturers to include these numbers on their specification charts for consistency in the industry, and to aid rider’s looking for the best possible fit for their body type and riding style.
For more information on reach and stack, or help in understanding the new sizing standard please visit:
www.turnerbikes.com
www.transitionbikes.com
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191 Comments
- + 16
MUnibiker
(Dec 18, 2008 at 2:40)
That will be so sweet for us who work in shops..
Yes! It's about time someone did this! The distances that truly matter when it comes to rider weight bias! Trials frame makers should have come up with this long ago! It would be tough to factor in sag on bikes with different travel front/rear though.
finaly, i always thoght to my self of such a mesuring system...cuz i aleways check for the TT mesuraments, but they go from the bar to the seat, wich i think its dumm, cuz thats not where you put your weight, the correct is bars-pedals...so that there is no influence by the seat angle...good!!
I can picture all these tape-measure plum lines hanging from the bike shop ceilings next to repair stands all across the nation. Just line 'er up then measure the reach.
I advise everyone who is reading to not continue below this as it is a complete waste of your time.
Its just a lot of people arguing about whether or not it works and how it will change with different components, and most are complete idiots.
Its just a lot of people arguing about whether or not it works and how it will change with different components, and most are complete idiots.
[Reply]
With a bigger fork the Reach will decrease and the Stack will be bigger.
But the reason between then should be the same (Reach/Stack). That is the real size of the frame.
But the reason between then should be the same (Reach/Stack). That is the real size of the frame.
but most bikes these days come with forks...
and ya, it will change if you put a different sized fork on, but thats your choice. they will of course be measurements with the recomended fork
and ya, it will change if you put a different sized fork on, but thats your choice. they will of course be measurements with the recomended fork
Fork size would not effect anything...you can rotate the frame in any direction 360 degrees and the measurements would be the same.It is simply a measurement of the frame and is in no way affected by components.
"asbloodrunsblack42", no, because stack is a vertical line, and stack is a horizontal line, so the frame will change them.
I think...
I think...
When you think about it, most bike companies when listing geometry say "based on a XXmm fork", and depending on what fork you have on the bike all the angles can suddenly change entirely. You could buy a chameleon based on whatever measurements you find, and maybe even ride some that have the size fork used for measurement, and then put on a different fork and think your bike is too small and not understand why.
I don't entirely understand the new system myself, but I'm definitely not going to say it won't work just because I haven't figured out how to use it. From my understanding so far, it sounds like a bike with long reach and short stack will be very steep, whereas with short reach and long stack it will be very slack. Although reach and stack will change with what fork you use, the combined number of the two will remain the same, and if this number is higher, the frame will be bigger.
Although this sounds to me like a great way to measure frame sizing, you could have a bike with the perfect reach/stack for you but end up getting an 18 inch chainstay. So yes, this system sounds great, but obviously if i understand this the companies will still have to list chainstay, BB height, etc. so you will know exactly what you are getting.
I don't know how much sense that made but those are my thoughts.
I don't entirely understand the new system myself, but I'm definitely not going to say it won't work just because I haven't figured out how to use it. From my understanding so far, it sounds like a bike with long reach and short stack will be very steep, whereas with short reach and long stack it will be very slack. Although reach and stack will change with what fork you use, the combined number of the two will remain the same, and if this number is higher, the frame will be bigger.
Although this sounds to me like a great way to measure frame sizing, you could have a bike with the perfect reach/stack for you but end up getting an 18 inch chainstay. So yes, this system sounds great, but obviously if i understand this the companies will still have to list chainstay, BB height, etc. so you will know exactly what you are getting.
I don't know how much sense that made but those are my thoughts.
asbloodrunsblack42 is right those measurements don't change look at the picture again and think about it !!
are they measuring the reach and stack assuming forks and wheels are on the bike? or are they measuring it when the chainstay is paralell to the ground? im kind of confused with that little piece
it has nothing to do with the chainstays, as u can see in the pic, they arent parrallel to the ground, which is the case with many bikes. thomasj, you wrong. ive thought about it plenty, its a vertical measurement up from the center of the bb and a horizontal measurement starting at the top of the head tube. the point where these 2 lines intersect is the distance given. if you put a huge fork on a frame designed for an 80mm fork, the whole frame will rotate some, putting the headtube higher, and more over the bb. that means a decrease in reach and increase in stack
soooo are WE as RIDERS ever going to be able to learn how to pick out frame sizes using this method? I ask because I'm 6'5-6'6ish and I NEVER had a frame that fit me perfect so I cant just measure my current frame and then pick out another one using the same method. I checked both websites and neither of them share ANY information on the subject
so what they are saying is it can only measure a frame not a complete bike i understand erik74 but this article is very vague and as dbcg says no info on turner web page and the transition site seems to be gone
Um erik74, according to the article this shits been around for a LONG time but it's new to MTB. It just would have helped a lot more if they had explained how to use this method or gave a reliable resource
it's funny as you guys give props for a wrong statement someone wrote..
Anyway, as someone said, normally fork sizes as specified, but most of us really bought just a frame..
The best way to judge a bike remains trying it..
Anyway, as someone said, normally fork sizes as specified, but most of us really bought just a frame..
The best way to judge a bike remains trying it..
wow. i am amazed out how much people can complicate such a simple concept. As has been explained, the reach and stack WILL change if you change the fork height or wheel diameter. The measurements are always HORIZONTAL from centre of the top of the head tube and VERTICAL from the centre of the BB. If you lift the front (longer fork) or lower the back (smaller wheel), the relationship changes... as does the feel of the bike! eg, an overly tall fork on a bike will rake it out, giving it a shorter "reach" ie. the bars feel like they're too close to you when you stand. Putting too short of a fork on will rotate teh front end away from you and lengthen the "reach". These guys have thought about this, virtually have PhD's in bikes, the system already exists with TT, so if you don't understand it or agree with it... you just need to get your own head around it, not the other way around. It's quite bloody brilliant actually!
and the Reach and Stack would only apply to a built bike... which is not an issue because 99% of the time you know your going to have 26" wheels front and back and a specific sized fork.. so for a DH bike the reach and stack would be for "frame built with 26" wheels and 8" fork". I'm not going to put a 3" fork on my DH bike. It couldn't be more straight forward.
Yeah, except that a 8" 888 is going to be a different length to a 8" Boxxer (for example).
Just because two forks are the same travel, does not mean they are the same length. The important measurement (for forks) is the axle to crown height.
Just because two forks are the same travel, does not mean they are the same length. The important measurement (for forks) is the axle to crown height.
minimole, you are correct, axle-to-crown height is the specific dimension of the fork that affects the bike's geometry, but the point remains... a change in fork (a-t-c) changes reach and stack.
usually companies measure with a suggested fork. i think its NS that had 2 measuerments on their site. one for 100mm and another that i cant remember. so they should be able to tell you one possible measurement. u can still find out what measurements we currently use, but otherwise, you dont know the reach and stack until the bike is built (unless u use suggested parts or w/e
"minimole, you are correct, axle-to-crown height is the specific dimension of the fork that affects the bike's geometry, but the point remains... a change in fork (a-t-c) changes reach and stack."
I know, I said that 5th comment on this reply
I know, I said that 5th comment on this reply
THE MEASUREMENTS WILL NOT CHANGE BCAUSE THIS IS A MEASUREMENT FROM THE HEADTUBE TO THE CRANK HOLE... ANY1 WHO THT THE MEASUREMENT CHANGE CAUSE OF FORKS...UR RETARDED... because the forks will change the ANGLE of the frame BUT NOT THE MEASUREMENT from the headtube to the crank hole... simple math... go to grade 1 pplz!!! P.S. asbloodrunsblack42 IS TOTTALLY RIGHT... all of u other pplz learn math
your wrong bud. its 2 measurements, one horizontally from the enter of the top of the headtube to where it meets with the line that is vertical from the center of the bb. you make the headtube higher, it rotates the frame putting the headtube higher and close to the bb. that in turn decreases the reach and increases the stack
NORCO-MAN-won- it wont chance the actual reach and stack of the frame but a bigger or smaller fork will change the reach and stack of the whole bike.
chill out.
chill out.
Reach, Stack, HT angle, ST angle, eff TT length, BB height, and WB do not exist without a built bike - they can only be measure with an actual or assumed build.
dont fink anyone has yet took into account the size of wheels ? i no the size of fork affects this, but does the size of wheel, ive seen some bikes wiv a 26 on front and 24 on back ? does this change things ?
oh ryt, just a thought as no1 had mentioned it, does any1 think this will ever catch on as a standard for sizing ?
i think so. 2 numbers is a lot easier to deal with than a bunch of tube lengths and angles. i mean ill use it once we figure out common measurements. great if your buying a frame or bike online, since you can know its a good size for u without ever getting on it, as long as you go with the forks used in the measurements
here's a simple solution to keep the sizes consistante where is doesnt matter about fork length.
just make sure that the stack line is a 90 to the bottom horrizontal bar, that way your stack and reach will stay the same lengths with all sizes of forks, because how it is now will definitally change lengths depending on fork length.
just make sure that the stack line is a 90 to the bottom horrizontal bar, that way your stack and reach will stay the same lengths with all sizes of forks, because how it is now will definitally change lengths depending on fork length.
well their is a problem thers not a definate way of tellin wat size frame suits you best, especially if your gunna use your old parts
same thing with the system were using now, just better. the current system gives u tube lenghts and angles, which gets quite complicated. and having a way that the measurements never change is a problem, because since the geo changes with different components, u need to know if the bike still fits or not.
"and having a way that the measurements never change is a problem" the measurements do change, as i have already mentioned, they ar affecteby both wheel size, fork si\e and most porbably your tired width
you havent been paying attention, i know the measurements change. i said that if you have a system that doesnt change, its a problem, cuz you'll never know what size your bike really is. god i hate stupid people
[Reply]
not at all. The old system worked, but it was to inconsistent. On some bikes, 18inch would be a large, whereas on other bike 20inch would be a large. That just makes it confusing for the buyer, ecspecially if they have only a basic understanding of mountainbiking. this doesnt get stuffed around by angles aswell. (i have stopped ranting now)
Well, they said that they are trying to make this the standard, so far only Transition and Turner have agreed. I like the idea though I agree with whomever below said they should still provide both ways of measurement
@ free ride big island
Theyre not making it so the manufacturers have to make them to set sizing regs.
Its just going to be a change in the way the size is measured.
Companies will still have the freedom to make the bike whatever size they want, but they will use this system to measure the sizes
Theyre not making it so the manufacturers have to make them to set sizing regs.
Its just going to be a change in the way the size is measured.
Companies will still have the freedom to make the bike whatever size they want, but they will use this system to measure the sizes
yeah. i realize that. it's just cool to see some form of standardized sizing in the industry happening. one of my biggest annoyances in the industry is how hardly anything is standardized. this is a small step in a good direction.
[Reply]
I hope they will still measure frames the old way as well as this way. I liked how almost every angle and length was shown. It made my life a bit easier when buying my current frame.
and no i don't believe the fork will matter, if you think about it the top of the headtube always stays in the same spot comparder to the bottom bracket, except for maybe mongoose and gt who have floating bottom brackets. The fork will change HT angle and many other things but not "reach" and stack"
I disagree. A longer fork would change both the reach and the stack. The reach would decrease and the stack would increase but the combined measurement (reach + stack) would be the same. This is because the reach seems to be horizontal to the groud and have a 90 degree angle against the stack.
The reach and stack are "frames sizing measurements". How does buying a bigger fork change the size of the frame? It doesn't. If you throw a bigger or smaller fork on your ride, it will affect the angles like the head tube angle and the seat tube angle. A frame is a frame, it doesn't matter how you slice it. If you were correct, I could buy a FOX 40 for my P3 and the reach would decrease to a perfect fit.... Duuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Yes, this method is a 'frame size' measurement, but it's dependent on what you consider 'horizontal'. Generally horizontal is achieved by putting a fully built bike on level ground and taking measurements. If you put a 40 on your P3 and properly take these measurements, you'll find that the reach measurement is shorter and the stack measurement is a longer than if you had a 4 inch travel fork mounted up.
There is no way to accurately use with method with just a frame... if you do, you can make these measurements what ever you want... and that's not much of a standard. Companies can supply this information when they ship a frame, but it has to be based on a particular set up much like head angles, seat angles and bb height. They all change when you mount up a different length fork.
There is no way to accurately use with method with just a frame... if you do, you can make these measurements what ever you want... and that's not much of a standard. Companies can supply this information when they ship a frame, but it has to be based on a particular set up much like head angles, seat angles and bb height. They all change when you mount up a different length fork.
This is a "frame size measurement"(how many times do I need to reiterate that), they are saying, if you read, you can compare your present frame, to a frame you wish to purchase using these guidelines to see how it will stack up. Anyone with any sense, and or experience at all can figure out how the change in frame size will work out for them. If not, then go to a bike shop and actually ask questions, no matter how big of a noob you feel like.
Quote:
“The great thing about this sizing method is that anyone with a piece of string with a weight on it and a measuring tape can accurately measure their current bikes. The rider can then compare their current bike to any brand using Reach and Stack and know exactly how it will fit without even riding it.â€
Welcome to pinkbike.com, where Grammar is used by few, and opinions become facts.
Quote:
“The great thing about this sizing method is that anyone with a piece of string with a weight on it and a measuring tape can accurately measure their current bikes. The rider can then compare their current bike to any brand using Reach and Stack and know exactly how it will fit without even riding it.â€
Welcome to pinkbike.com, where Grammar is used by few, and opinions become facts.
So should I go to my own bike shop and ask questions? I could ask my mechanic questions I suppose. Or maybe I could ask the young kid that sweeps the floors for me. I mean, I do feel like a noob sometimes for sure... I'll be the first to admit it. And it would sure save some time if we dumbed down frame measurements a bunch. Too bad you don't live closer endur06, I might give you a job.
Ooooh, You own Favorit Cycles in Cranbrook, BC. "Here you go sir, I present you with a cookie".
I looked at your profile half wit, I know you own a shop. I was generalizing the "go to a bike shop and ask questions" comment, not telling you to go to a shop, It's obvious you know allot about bikes. I wouldn't tell a squirrel to collect nuts. A job, haha, I make probably 3 times what you could pay... I'm flattered, I really am, you know how to use sarcasm, how sweet. Buh-bye sweet heart.
I looked at your profile half wit, I know you own a shop. I was generalizing the "go to a bike shop and ask questions" comment, not telling you to go to a shop, It's obvious you know allot about bikes. I wouldn't tell a squirrel to collect nuts. A job, haha, I make probably 3 times what you could pay... I'm flattered, I really am, you know how to use sarcasm, how sweet. Buh-bye sweet heart.
enduro you are making yourself look like an ass - This is a "frame size measurement"(how many times do I need to reiterate that), - and later in your reply - The rider can then compare their current bike to any brand using Reach and Stack -, your bike, not frame bike. It will be affected by the size of your fork, the bigger fork you put on the less reach you will have because the head angle changes and the bars/stem get closer to you, the bar/stem will also be higher compared to before(obviously) so your stack becomes greater, i cannot see anyone puttting a huge fork on a hardtail meant fo dj or a tiny fork on a dh rig so this shouldn't be an issue and i think its a pretty good idea, this mesurement is affected by fork length though
I have never commented on one of these before but this is mind numbing and amusing at the same time I don't understand why people can't grasp what enduro06 and others are trying to explain...this is a FRAME measuring system not a measurement for you standing over an assembled bike !? Since it is FRAME measuring system ONLY you could put a springer front end from a 1960 Harley Davidson on the bike and the stack and reach of the FRAME would not change kids... we are talking about the frame NOT you standing on the ground over the frame...make sense now ? imagine yourself sitting on the top tube of the frame and reaching for the head tube...you could do a flat spin 360 tailwhip bike flip to bar spin and the geometry between your b*tt, shoulders and hands is not going to change unless you heavy fork the landing and crack the top tube and bend the head tube closer to you This is a very smart and very universal system that everyone should be applauding because it takes all of the angles out of the equation and gives you a true cockpit size so you will not have to do any geometry to figure out how different frames are going to feel...just a simple right angle that gives you just two dimensions that sum up the " feel " of the cockpit. If this still does not make sense please realize that college is very important and sign up for a few geomerty classes...it will even help you build better jumps too
I don't understand why people can't grasp what enduro06 and others are trying to explain...this is a FRAME measuring system not a measurement for you standing over an assembled bike !? Since it is FRAME measuring system ONLY you could put a springer front end from a 1960 Harley Davidson on the bike and the stack and reach of the FRAME would not change kids... we are talking about the frame NOT you standing on the ground over the frame...make sense now ? imagine yourself sitting on the top tube of the frame and reaching for the head tube...you could do a flat spin 360 tailwhip bike flip to bar spin and the geometry between your b*tt, shoulders and hands is not going to change unless you heavy fork the landing and crack the top tube and bend the head tube closer to you This is a very smart and very universal system that everyone should be applauding because it takes all of the angles out of the equation and gives you a true cockpit size so you will not have to do any geometry to figure out how different frames are going to feel...just a simple right angle that gives you just two dimensions that sum up the " feel " of the cockpit. If this still does not make sense please realize that college is very important and sign up for a few geomerty classes...it will even help you build better jumps too
I'm making myself look like an ass.... Hahah, heed your own statement my friend. Allow me to elaborate...
Lets think of it this way, you have a DJ set up sitting in your garage. You want a new "frame", for your "bike". So measure the "frame" of your current "bike" as described above. Then go to your local bike porn shop, measure the "frame" for your "bike" you wish to purchase. Then, here is the best part, compare the measurements. Yaaay.
Where can you buy these "frame bikes" your talking about, do you have a contact, I want one? I didn't know you can have a bike without a frame, they must be made in China or somewhere.
The components will change the geometry of the bike, yes, I never said it wouldn't. Reading comprehension, that's two words, and yes, one is 13 characters long.
Yeah, who would put a DH fork on a DJ bike? Me? Totally, why not, or, we have something called SARCASM we use in the English Language.
Quote: (from the above provided reading material)
"The great thing about this sizing method is that anyone with a piece of string with a weight on it and a measuring tape can accurately measure their current bikes (Bikes have frames). The rider can then compare their current bike(with a frame) to any brand using Reach and Stack and know exactly how it will fit without even riding it."
"Bikes have frames champ". In case you didn't know.
You need to learn two things, reading comprehension, and what sarcasm is. Many doors will open for you, hang in there sport.
Lets think of it this way, you have a DJ set up sitting in your garage. You want a new "frame", for your "bike". So measure the "frame" of your current "bike" as described above. Then go to your local bike porn shop, measure the "frame" for your "bike" you wish to purchase. Then, here is the best part, compare the measurements. Yaaay.
Where can you buy these "frame bikes" your talking about, do you have a contact, I want one? I didn't know you can have a bike without a frame, they must be made in China or somewhere.
The components will change the geometry of the bike, yes, I never said it wouldn't. Reading comprehension, that's two words, and yes, one is 13 characters long.
Yeah, who would put a DH fork on a DJ bike? Me? Totally, why not, or, we have something called SARCASM we use in the English Language.
Quote: (from the above provided reading material)
"The great thing about this sizing method is that anyone with a piece of string with a weight on it and a measuring tape can accurately measure their current bikes (Bikes have frames). The rider can then compare their current bike(with a frame) to any brand using Reach and Stack and know exactly how it will fit without even riding it."
"Bikes have frames champ". In case you didn't know.
You need to learn two things, reading comprehension, and what sarcasm is. Many doors will open for you, hang in there sport.
Let's not even get into stem-lengths and riser-bar sweeps. Sometimes having a longer travel fork raises the front stack forcing the rider to lean forward to provide any pedaling power. Without changing any actual measurements in the top tube, this would be definitely be perceived as a shortening of reach. Ever notice how that "reach" shrinks really quickly when you're climbing on your favorite steeps?
I can rely on you for spell check from now on, is that what your saying. Sweet... I'm adding you as a friend. Would this be the wrong time to ask for some deals when I come visit my gf's parents in Cranbrook?
this is a cool new tool! if you understand it, and i see thats been hard for a couple ppl. bigger fork goes on = reach getting shorter, the key is the 90 degree angle you make when you measure it from "bottom bracket center to the top of the headtube centerline ". so as the top tube becomes raked out from a larger fork the angle at which the bike sits is slacker then before the center line of the headtube has moved in and the bottem bracket center has moved forward, so now the length of your reach has decreased and your stack has increased makes the bike ride differently. just like most bike mesurments this is just based around a "standard" fork size for the bike, companies design a bike with a certain amount of travel in mind for the front. i would imagin you could talk one of your nerdy buddies they could make a formula to figure out what the different reach and stack each fork will have on a different bike.
i have felt what this differce in forks does since at one time i had a P.2 on a DJ then a triple drop off, this made my reach rly short but my stack taller then before. these measurements rock! they makes researching sizing a bike so much nicer!
i have felt what this differce in forks does since at one time i had a P.2 on a DJ then a triple drop off, this made my reach rly short but my stack taller then before. these measurements rock! they makes researching sizing a bike so much nicer!
Well said. That "decreased reach" with the longer fork is especially noticeable on flats and uphills. Only proper way to increase the reach folks, point her down a steep hill and let 'er rip. Shalom, and Git 'r' dunn.
ok, so i've been proven wrong. And enduro06, just let it go, i hope by now you've realized that the measurements do change. But I think that companies should publish these measurements, not with a specific fork in mind, but a standard H.A. for differents style bikes, ex. all "reach" and "stack" measurements for DH race bikes should be done with the HA at 64.5 degrees. So that you can truly compare the different bikes without being there.
I know on a complete bike the measurements change you tool, I don't need to come to a realization of anything. I was agreeing with you, obviously reading comprehension is left out of the Ontario education curriculum. Bicycle manufacturers do post the geometry of their bikes. You need basic math skills to figure out angles and measurements. Stay in school....Kiddo.
ok, calm down. Just scanned through your comments quickly and didn't realize that you had agreed, sorry. and for one thing I still am in school and am doing better than you probably did. And I obviously know that bike companies publish fricken geometries, but all I was saying was that they should have a standard HA when they calculate reach and stack because as you know if I measured them with a fox 40 and then with a boxxer they would be different for the exact same bike. This would ensure that you could really compare the two frames just by looking at the reach and stack.
You are all ridiculous! I have a physics degree and a math degree. To make a perfectly accurate measurment, the "frame" needs to be measured when assembled, fork and all. Although, the same measurement could be made if they included the headtube angle, which they do. A simple reduction equation could be used to alter the ratio to exactly what it would be if it were assembled. But... I have gone over this equation several times with different forks, frames, headtube angles, etc. and to my amazement(because I thought this was bullshit too) , the original reach/stack measurement is quite accurate, keep in mind I factored in the headtube angle. Just using the given example of the picture in this article, it is hard to tell where to measure from. I won't explain completely but, I would suggest using a base to start from, like the headtube and then branching off from there. This would give a true standard, that no one could argue with. Concluding... I think this measurement is helpful if you are new at bikes and just need a ballpark, but if you are experienced in choosing a bike it can be kind of a hokie measurement. I do not believe this should be a standardized measurement. I think things like thread counts, headtube diameters, hub spacing, etc. should be standardized.
enduro 06 beleive me we are on the same page if yes you are just mesuring the frame and totally ignoring the components it wont change but if you are doing it for a complete bike it will, but why would they make the mesurement for just the frame size without the components, that means everytime you go to look at a new frame as you were talking about you are just going to totally dissasemble your bike so that you can get a mesurement then look at new frames and decide if you like one, besides why would you want a mesurement that tells you what a frames cockpit will be like when it has know components. personally(just my opinion) i would prefer to ride a bike thats has wheels and a fork and things like that, but thats just me, so it kinda makes sense that this mesurement will tell you what your bike will feel like when its assembled instead of sitting in your closet with no parts
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The Stack dimension makes some sense, but no frame angle/measurement is unaffected by fork length, shock sag, wheels or tyres. Not to mention seat height and seat post angle. The ONLY way to know if a bike is right for you is to ride it.
Well done guys! It seems to me that there was always something missing in frame's geometry description. Thanks 
finally someone came up with this 
i hated the fact that toptube lenghts didn't say much about the length of the frame because of the angles
i hated the fact that toptube lenghts didn't say much about the length of the frame because of the angles
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it's about time something like this came along, i think it's a good idea.
My bike measures 430/630 (reach/stack in mm) - this is easy!
My bike measures 430/630 (reach/stack in mm) - this is easy!
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If these numbers aren't on the frame how do you measure it with 2 hands and a tape measure, if there's any easy way to do it I'd like it.
Agreed. I'm thinking about it, and I just can't think of how to measure accurately without a second set of hands. However, this is still a real smart way to measure frame sizes. For DH/FR, when you spend pretty well all you time off of the saddle, this makes sense. For the XC/AM crowd its also good, but I would think they would still want to know the Seat Tube Angle, since those folks will actually be using their saddles.
This is going to be so much easier for people who are trying to sell the bikes, try explaining that even though one bike is 15.5" and another 16" that the 16" frame is smaller when you're talking to a mother who's buying a Christmas present.
This doesn't appear to be very useful for any sort of bike that you would sit down on to pedal. It leaves the seat location out of the equation, which is quite important in XC and all mountain applications. As pointed out above, top tube length isn't always an accurate measurement because of serveral 'standard' ways of measuring it. Old school geometry does however get a person close enough to choose from the available sizes in a more accurate method than just measuring the horizontal distance from the bb to the top of the headtube and the resultant vertical measurement. Proper sizing of a bike that will be sat upon goes well beyond just frame size.
For DJ/street bikes, it may be handy if it catches on. Most jump and street bikes are fairly similar in geometry and run similar length forks. And from what I can tell, there isn't a lot of dirt jumping going on with people sitting on their seats. If the system is designed just to describe how a bike fits while standing up, then yes I can see it working (if it catches on). The geometry charts will continue to describe the riding characteristics of a frame and proper fit. And as pointed out above, the only way to truely check the fit is to sit on the bike and go for a ride.
For DJ/street bikes, it may be handy if it catches on. Most jump and street bikes are fairly similar in geometry and run similar length forks. And from what I can tell, there isn't a lot of dirt jumping going on with people sitting on their seats. If the system is designed just to describe how a bike fits while standing up, then yes I can see it working (if it catches on). The geometry charts will continue to describe the riding characteristics of a frame and proper fit. And as pointed out above, the only way to truely check the fit is to sit on the bike and go for a ride.
favorit cycle dude: don't worry, this definitely still helps size an xc bike. because your seat should still be in a relative position to the bb. there's kind of a formula for that. anybody who knows about bike fitting should know this.
from there you decide stem length based on how long the frames cockpit length is
old school measuring is crap, it has no relativity at all. this can at least be standardized.
from there you decide stem length based on how long the frames cockpit length is
old school measuring is crap, it has no relativity at all. this can at least be standardized.
Thanks bigtard. I hope that I know a thing or two about fitting bikes, or a lot of people are in trouble.
if you did you wouldn't have been so stupid as to say it doesn't work for xc bikes. seriously, that makes you sound stupid. i would be worried about you fitting people on bicycles if you can't figure that out
i'm just tired of hearing people who think they know it all, saying stupid things on pink bike.
but carry on though. you probably like to think people take your word as rule just because you own a bike shop
but carry on though. you probably like to think people take your word as rule just because you own a bike shop
Mr. bigtard, if you're sooooooo tired of hearing stupid people say stupid stuff, why are you on Pinkbike? I only come here to make myself feel good about my vast knowledge of everything... it's much easier to impress the groms around here than my real customers. Personally, I don't like to think that anyone takes my word on anything. It's much safer that way. I assume that half the people out there think I'm stupid and I think the other half is stupid. It all works out nicely.
perfect, we're all getting exactly what we want out of pink bike.
you get to say stupid shit.
you get to hear other people say stupid shit.
and i get to abuse whom ever i want about the stupid shit everyone says.
other people get to abuse me for abusing them for the stupid shit people say.
i love this shit
there's so much love in the world
merry christmas
you get to say stupid shit.
you get to hear other people say stupid shit.
and i get to abuse whom ever i want about the stupid shit everyone says.
other people get to abuse me for abusing them for the stupid shit people say.
i love this shit
there's so much love in the world
merry christmas
I like it. It will help all the people with extra long limbs, I see guys with big gorilla arms riding an XL frame because, they thought that was what they needed for their long reach. Meanwhile, the stand over height is crazy huge. It boils down to helping the customer choose. A kid at a bike shop that knows a customer knows sweet fu@k all about biking. He will sell him anything the customer looks at and thinks he wants with a huge price tag. It's our right as consumers to know what were buying and this is another helpful tool to make a better informed purchase.
I'm in no way saying every bike shop sells bikes without giving guidance, I have just seen it happen. A kid and his father walk in to "Western Cycle" ( Edmonton, Alberta ) the kid looks at the most expensive, colorful and shiny free ride / DH rig(This just so happens to be a Devinci 8 Flat
. I have been there for awhile looking at bikes, getting in shit for riding the bikes around and messing around with a set of stairs in the shop. They told me to stop riding the bikes, I told them I will take my business and blank cheque somewhere else(who buys a bike they haven't ridden). On my way out I see the kid has had his father produce a credit card and "swipe", the kid now has a bike he has no idea how to ride. When he guessed the size he said "well I think a small will do", the guy at the shop said nothing during the sale. He knew the kid would either have the bike stolen or he wouldn't like it and would in fact sell it. What did he care though? It wasn't his hard earned cash.
I think this will catch on because the old system just can't cut it the rapidly advancing technology in cycling. Change is as good as the rest. Good job Transition and Turner on bringing this to light!!!
I'm in no way saying every bike shop sells bikes without giving guidance, I have just seen it happen. A kid and his father walk in to "Western Cycle" ( Edmonton, Alberta ) the kid looks at the most expensive, colorful and shiny free ride / DH rig(This just so happens to be a Devinci 8 Flat
. I have been there for awhile looking at bikes, getting in shit for riding the bikes around and messing around with a set of stairs in the shop. They told me to stop riding the bikes, I told them I will take my business and blank cheque somewhere else(who buys a bike they haven't ridden). On my way out I see the kid has had his father produce a credit card and "swipe", the kid now has a bike he has no idea how to ride. When he guessed the size he said "well I think a small will do", the guy at the shop said nothing during the sale. He knew the kid would either have the bike stolen or he wouldn't like it and would in fact sell it. What did he care though? It wasn't his hard earned cash.I think this will catch on because the old system just can't cut it the rapidly advancing technology in cycling. Change is as good as the rest. Good job Transition and Turner on bringing this to light!!!
+1 to all of that.
Oh and can I sig "Welcome to pinkbike.com, where Grammar is used by few, and opinions become facts"?
Oh and can I sig "Welcome to pinkbike.com, where Grammar is used by few, and opinions become facts"?
Effective top tube length and seat tube length/angle already report this information in a more relevant manner Enduro06. Nice platform to rant off topic though.
not with all frames, because with an interupted seat tube, the BB often isn't inline with the seat tube angle. The significance of this reach-stack measurement is the relationship between the BB and Handlebars... wich is most important for DH/FR, which is mostly up and out of the saddle... i.e. standing up and holding on, not sitting down and pedaling like xc/road/tt
this will be really good for taller riders like me, cause the only measurment that really changes the feel of the bike is the pedal to bar length and companys never use that as a guideline.
So much better way to measure bikes! Great idea! Hope every other brands will use this maesurements too!
Looks like a very useful tool for sizing and comparison.
BTW Some posters need to learn to read a schematic. Hilarious posts!
Let's call this "Pinkipedia".
BTW Some posters need to learn to read a schematic. Hilarious posts!
Let's call this "Pinkipedia".
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I would like some to take the computer they are staring at right now, and rotate the screen while looking at the schematic above. To the left, or right, I don't care. Tell me how much the measurements change as the bike frame senses the change in horizontal. For crying out loud, people, THINK ABOUT IT.
Science = good. Ignorant banter on pb = bad.
Props to PearlJamSoCal, and to Sam Burkhardt, who know WTF they are talking about. Sheesh, props to TRI BIKE manufacturers who actually know what THEY are talking about. (Even if their bikes are laaaaame.)
Science = good. Ignorant banter on pb = bad.
Props to PearlJamSoCal, and to Sam Burkhardt, who know WTF they are talking about. Sheesh, props to TRI BIKE manufacturers who actually know what THEY are talking about. (Even if their bikes are laaaaame.)
I would like you to rotate your monitor and observe how that line indicated "reach" is no longer horizontal and the line indicated "stack" is not longer vertical. No imagine adjusting both of the lines to horizontal and vertical, resepectively, and observe (if you can) how the location of their new intersection will change, thus changing the reach and stack dimensions. Please acknowledge schoolage once you grasp this simple concept.
It's only a fixed frame measurement if you assume a constant head angle and a verticle rider position.
Rotating your computer monitor, as Sngltrkmnd put it, changes the H/A and the Verticle line which represents the rider position simultaneously. Therefore the reach and stack measurements don't change.
In the real world forks come in all sorts of different lengths. Changing the forks Axle-To-Crown changes the bikes head angle which (assuming we don't change the verticle stack line) changes the reach and stack measurements.
I hope that makes sense. Seems pretty obvious too me
Rotating your computer monitor, as Sngltrkmnd put it, changes the H/A and the Verticle line which represents the rider position simultaneously. Therefore the reach and stack measurements don't change.
In the real world forks come in all sorts of different lengths. Changing the forks Axle-To-Crown changes the bikes head angle which (assuming we don't change the verticle stack line) changes the reach and stack measurements.
I hope that makes sense. Seems pretty obvious too me
Stupid, stupid, stupid. I guess I should expect something this stupid and gimmicky from a 'company' like transition.
So in their (small) minds, each type of bike will be measured differently? If DJ bikes are to be measured this way, what about XC bikes? It is absolutely asinine to think that this measuring system can replace the existing measurements for XC/AM bikes. So if the idea behind this is to 'avoid confusion', how can that happen with different measuring systems used for different styles of bike?
All you need is seat tube angle, length, and effective top tube length. Those are the important cockpit measurements. Sorry Transition and Turner, but you're stupid. Not stupider than the people you're trying to sell too ('cause they buy into it) I guess, but that's not saying much now is it? Did you guys know that some people are taller than 6 feet, and actually peddle their bikes? Crazy thought, eh?
So in their (small) minds, each type of bike will be measured differently? If DJ bikes are to be measured this way, what about XC bikes? It is absolutely asinine to think that this measuring system can replace the existing measurements for XC/AM bikes. So if the idea behind this is to 'avoid confusion', how can that happen with different measuring systems used for different styles of bike?
All you need is seat tube angle, length, and effective top tube length. Those are the important cockpit measurements. Sorry Transition and Turner, but you're stupid. Not stupider than the people you're trying to sell too ('cause they buy into it) I guess, but that's not saying much now is it? Did you guys know that some people are taller than 6 feet, and actually peddle their bikes? Crazy thought, eh?
it's just another mesurement to help sizing a frame. not the end all be all. and it's not a gimmick it's a great idea.
shutup... the only thing you would need to add to the reach and stack measurements would be the seat tube angle. finding the ett length is a pain in the arse if you're not already given the info on the frame. finding the reach and stack would be a very simple process. don't hate on transition just because they go single pivot. sounds like you're being just a little bias
Nice one Sam!! Makes total sense. Lots of haters already. Sam...you're taller than 6', so is Mike, shoot Kevin is over 6' too?!! I think you guys pedal....oh and make kick ass bikes too!! Cheers!! Way to reach out to Turner and get something going!!
Lots of haters? You mean a few people that think about things. Kick ass bikes? Come on!! That kind of money for what essentially amounts to a catalog frame? Without brand name/formed or even butted tubing? The entire thing reeks more than a Santa Cruz Bullit. How many Bullits would have sold if they were branded Huffy (at the same price)?
They are trying to build an image, which is essentially the only way a company like that can survive. Stick to that and you may do fine. Overstep their bounds, pretend to be innovators or influential members of the industry, and we'll see what happens.
They are trying to build an image, which is essentially the only way a company like that can survive. Stick to that and you may do fine. Overstep their bounds, pretend to be innovators or influential members of the industry, and we'll see what happens.
lets talk about what you ride.... a Norco, who Pays for the FSR link system from Specialized every year. Transition ride nice and they are an smart company for their size. shit the day they bring out this press release they also release a inexpensive bearing press/removabe tool for their bikes. the company listens to it's rides and responds.
That's a hijack, but okay, let's talk about what I ride. It's not a norco. Specialized, Surly, Litespeed. Now let's talk about what's better: lisencing a breakthough idea (like the Horst Link, VPP, DW Link), or settling on a heavier catalog single pivot frame for more money. I'm not saying Transition bikes are weak or bad, I'm simply saying I don't think you get what you pay for, that's all. I used to ride norco because the bikes were quite good for the money, but that has changed in my opinion in recent years. So, as a thoughtful person, I used my open mind to evaluate the marketplace and make an informed decision based on more than hype. Again, this must seem crazy to many members of this board. Crazy, eh?
My main issue with this topic is that I think this is a prime example of change for changes sake, and not only is it not needed, but we would actually be better off without it. If it were to catch on (which I can guarantee it won't), it would simply add confusion/clutter to the process. Image based companies often have to create change for changes sake (and confusion/hype), so I understand the choice to pretend like they are really on the ball and plugged into the industry, but come on...how about actually doing something meaningful and/or worthwhile?
My main issue with this topic is that I think this is a prime example of change for changes sake, and not only is it not needed, but we would actually be better off without it. If it were to catch on (which I can guarantee it won't), it would simply add confusion/clutter to the process. Image based companies often have to create change for changes sake (and confusion/hype), so I understand the choice to pretend like they are really on the ball and plugged into the industry, but come on...how about actually doing something meaningful and/or worthwhile?
c'mon buddy, theres a lot of bikes out there that are hard to judge size wise. this gives you a perfect way to compare them. it's not about change or anything else you were babbling about.
it's about clear, understandable information.
i agree with some of the other shit you were babbling about.
but transition really does try hard to give people what they want. small companies are good at that. it's the best thing they have going for them.
street cred
it's about clear, understandable information.
i agree with some of the other shit you were babbling about.
but transition really does try hard to give people what they want. small companies are good at that. it's the best thing they have going for them.
street cred
Dear Boys and Girls,
I am not trying to muddy the waters but just lend some of what has helped me. I started using the reach measurement a year, ago, and it has MOSTLY been helpful when working from a bike that I know fits me very well and trying to find something else that will fall in that ballpark. I can measure a bike and know, definitively, when the reach will be outside of my range. Having said that, I have found that Front Center (from front axle to center of cranks) and Rear Center (chainstay) are easier measurements to take and almost just as pertinent as reach, although comparisons can only be done when frame angles are similar. The bottom line for me is that of the bikes I have gone through I keep a database of frame measurements (with Reach, Front Center, and Rear Center, along with a couple others), and classic top-tube or seat-tube measurements are meaningless.
I am not trying to muddy the waters but just lend some of what has helped me. I started using the reach measurement a year, ago, and it has MOSTLY been helpful when working from a bike that I know fits me very well and trying to find something else that will fall in that ballpark. I can measure a bike and know, definitively, when the reach will be outside of my range. Having said that, I have found that Front Center (from front axle to center of cranks) and Rear Center (chainstay) are easier measurements to take and almost just as pertinent as reach, although comparisons can only be done when frame angles are similar. The bottom line for me is that of the bikes I have gone through I keep a database of frame measurements (with Reach, Front Center, and Rear Center, along with a couple others), and classic top-tube or seat-tube measurements are meaningless.
being that I don't know a whole lot about measurements, I don't have a lot of input for this one.
looks to me like this bike is a ride it up, ride it down kinda thing.
maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but at least I can admit to that.
looks to me like this bike is a ride it up, ride it down kinda thing.
maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but at least I can admit to that.
Perhaps they have anticipated this, but Sam and Dave owe it to the industry to publish figures for a lot of other bike frames. How does an Intense customer know how the Gran Mal will fit if he doesn't know the reach and stack figures for his Uzzi? No big deal, it's just apples to apples. When those figures become more commonplace, they will make more sense to everyone.
And I think we all know better than to put a 40 on a P1 or an XC400 on a V10. Count on a 1' HA change for a 1" change in fork length, right?
And I think we all know better than to put a 40 on a P1 or an XC400 on a V10. Count on a 1' HA change for a 1" change in fork length, right?
I don't think that particalur example is very important. An uzzi to a gran mal? Are you serious? That's like requesting that Ford make it easier for consumers to compare an F430 Ferrari to a Taurus.
it looks like a really good method for determining the ride height and the top tube length if your trying to compare frame geometries. this is going to be very useful when comparing hardtail frames or bmx frames. too bad theres not a more simple way for rear end measurments..... cough cough Sam and Dave!!!!!!
The stack and reach would are based on the designer's head and seat tube angles, therefore they are fixed points. Do whatever you want to the bike it doesn't change the intended use, or design. This system simply allows designers to compare apples to apples not oranges or bananas. It allows them to speak the same language in a way that we can understand. What would be nice is to have a chart that compares body type (hieght, inseam , arm length and maybe weight), riding style (XC, DH BMX...), and ability (beginner, novice, elite...) to reach and stack, which would allow a shop to fit people more accurately.
All the geometry angles and measurements in the world won't tell you how a bike will fit you(unless they are identicle to the bike you are currently riding), at best they will get you in the ballpark, enough so that you know which dealer to visit to "test ride" your new bike.
Since suspension bikes necessitated interrupted seat tubes that no longer originate from the BB, Seat tube angles mean very little and Effective top tube measurements even less (unless you ride with your seat at headtube height all the time)
This new "standard" will work well for DH and FR bikes where you stand 90% of the time, for AM and Trail bikes however, it becomes important to know where the Seat tube angle will position your seat when you are sat down pedalling. Hard to tell from a brochure, hence the need for test riding!
I like Dave Turners idea of leaving off Eff top tube length on DH bikes (its irrelevant and confusing to customers!)
Since suspension bikes necessitated interrupted seat tubes that no longer originate from the BB, Seat tube angles mean very little and Effective top tube measurements even less (unless you ride with your seat at headtube height all the time)
This new "standard" will work well for DH and FR bikes where you stand 90% of the time, for AM and Trail bikes however, it becomes important to know where the Seat tube angle will position your seat when you are sat down pedalling. Hard to tell from a brochure, hence the need for test riding!
I like Dave Turners idea of leaving off Eff top tube length on DH bikes (its irrelevant and confusing to customers!)
at least some guys out there are trying to make stuff simpler for us guys.....
keep up with the hard work, greatly appreciated as i work in a bike shop!
keep up with the hard work, greatly appreciated as i work in a bike shop!
Seriously, forget bike shop employees!!!! Make the consumers life easier!!! Anyone who doesn't think the consumer is the most important part of the equation is the reason people end up doing mail-order (for shame according to bike shops).
Wow, so after all that, how 'bout I throw in this monkey wrench; what about that chainstay length? You could have two bikes with the exact same reach and stack, with totally different chainstays, and they would ride totally different. I guess it's just about the fit, though? Also, all this talk of different fork changing it (which it would), is kinda silly really, cuz it's only gonna change noticably if you put WAY TOO BIG of a fork on, then you risk snapping your headtube, and paying for your dentist's chrismas presents for his kids.
based on the "positive props" for people who think fork/build don't affect reach/stack... and the "negative props" for people that are trying to explain how it does.... the average intelligence of Pinkbike readers is much less than average.
Ironically, I think those people are the target for this new sizing. I mean, if they don't get simple shit like that, do you really think they can understand the current geometry charts manufacturers provide? This is simple sizing for simple people. Oh, and from a DH standpoint it makes more sense to give this measurement when compared to the "virtual top tube" lengths so many manufacturers use.
I think it will allow for the rider's center of mass to be more in line with frame center to maximize the overall bike handelling like the engine placement in a high performace car for example.
Why would you want the riders center of mass in the center of the frame? This is nothing like cars. Additionally, this farce of a measurement suggestion will not control the measurements, but rather how they are reported.
as part of the overall bike, a riders center of mass lined up with bike frame center is what gives the best control over the bike. to far forward traction is lost in the back. to far back and steering control is lost. proper frame fit gets the rider more aligned with the frame and gets the most out of the frame's geometry. for the car eg think formula 1 racer engin 7 driver very centered in car frame giving better control.
This viewpoint is not very bright. Cars can't reasonably move their mass around while driving like a bike and rider. Also, they travel on moderately flat terrain when at speed. Why would you want the center of mass in the center of a bike while going down a 30 degree slope? Leave the thinking to the qualified ones...
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This is stupid. They should be trying to improve their bikes instead of wasting time on this. Its not any better a system. The best way to get fit for a bike is to test ride one. Things like stem length, crank length, leg & arm length , headtube angle and personal taste dictate what the best fit is.
Agreed. However, when you catalog order stuff, you're limited in what you can do to improve you're products. So you end up filling you time with antics like this.
So if you want to creae a new standard, how about standardizing your measurements to metric. Bike components measure most items in metric except the frame and head tube. Turner and Transition are no different. It would be a lot easier for consumers to have all manufacturers using the same measuremants.
There is one flaw to this measurement...the bike must be built! It doesn't mean a whole lot unless we are dealing with completes.
Also we must have some sort of idea about the reach and stack of bikes we already ride before we are able to compare to this suggested standard.
How do we know what reach and stack is ideal for us? If you take all of the current frame measurements and layed out a sketch on paper, you could draw the exact frame, right?. Could you do this with stack and reach?
I think this will be more confusing and complicated to the consumer instead of clarifying and simpler. I also feel like many of you underestimate the knowledge and abilities of the consumer.
Also we must have some sort of idea about the reach and stack of bikes we already ride before we are able to compare to this suggested standard.
How do we know what reach and stack is ideal for us? If you take all of the current frame measurements and layed out a sketch on paper, you could draw the exact frame, right?. Could you do this with stack and reach?
I think this will be more confusing and complicated to the consumer instead of clarifying and simpler. I also feel like many of you underestimate the knowledge and abilities of the consumer.
On your first point, with conventional bike measurements, the bike must also be built to determine head tube angle, seat tube angle, bb height, and effective top tube, so there is no difference there.
On your second point, you're right, but that's only relevant as long as reach and stack is "new".. and it is easy to measure anyways.
Yes, with conventional, detailed measurements you could basically build the frame... but I think the point here is that instead of looking at 6, 8, or 10 numbers... it all boils down to 2 numbers that define the BB relative to the handlbars.
On your second point, you're right, but that's only relevant as long as reach and stack is "new".. and it is easy to measure anyways.
Yes, with conventional, detailed measurements you could basically build the frame... but I think the point here is that instead of looking at 6, 8, or 10 numbers... it all boils down to 2 numbers that define the BB relative to the handlbars.
I think it is.. for example a bike with a really slack seat tube angle will have a long effective top tube, but it will not feel or ride long when you're out of the saddle... which is most of the time on a dh bike. I know my V10 feels fine when I sit on it, but i think it's a bit too short for me when i'm up and riding.. to me this "reach & stack" paints a clearer picture of the important relationship betweeen BB and bars. In addition though, I would still want to know HT angle, BB height, and chainstay length (for a given build of course!)
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hey guys, this is kyle from transition. just to clarify a few things...
1) we're not trying to re-invent the wheel here. the point of this is to have all manufacturers standardize the way they disclose bike/frame geometry. the point is to level the playing field a bit to make it ultimately easier for the consumer/bike shop employee/etc. to know the geometry of bikes and be able to compare across different sizes of between different models/manufacturers.
2) Don't worry, we're not saying we want to "replace" any other way of measuring bikes/frames. we're only stating that traditional methods don't always tell the entire story. most manufacturers report their geo numbers in different ways. this is just one step closer to having all manufacturers report in the same way for apples-to-apples comparing. our only real goal here with this is to get other manufacturers to list reach and stack along with all the other measurements currently being given. we're not replacing anything, just adding more info for those that can benefit from it.
3) of course you need other measurements in order to make reach and stack meaningful. fork height being of ultimate importance. i guess one way we could have made this "press release" better would be to have listed that fork height is really what determines the reach/stack measurements. every frame/bike was designed around an axle-to-crown measurement so obviously this plays a huge part in determining reach/stack. you simply can't have one without the other. our bad for not including the a-to-c in the drawing above.
4) the point of getting all manufacturers to report the numbers the same way is to aid in comparing "same use" bikes against each other. for example, if you're in the market for a slopestyle bike you really would want to look at all the bikes in the market for that use and compare the sizing. reach and stack help in determining what the actual size is (meaning, the relationship of BB to the handlebar position given the a-to-c and fork angle). Obviously you could misuse this information by comparing dis-similar bikes (ie: a DH bike with a DJ bike) which would make for utterly meaningless comparative info.
5) in all honesty this is not a "standard" so much as it is just a call to other manufacturers to start listing this information. we're not claiming we've come up with this new way of measureing (as noted in the press release, this measuring system is commonly used in other cycling disciplines). our point is to help drive adoption as we believe (as does Dave Turner) that it will ultimately help the consumer in understanding how a bike will fit them. The more info the better!
Hopefully this helps clarify the intent of this press release. To all the other manufacturers reading, hopefully you understand our intent here and don't feel daunted by the task of spending a few minutes and opening your drawing files, taking the measurements, and posting to your respective websites. i would think that disclaiming bike geometry to its fullest would be equally important for everybody in the business of selling bicycles.
1) we're not trying to re-invent the wheel here. the point of this is to have all manufacturers standardize the way they disclose bike/frame geometry. the point is to level the playing field a bit to make it ultimately easier for the consumer/bike shop employee/etc. to know the geometry of bikes and be able to compare across different sizes of between different models/manufacturers.
2) Don't worry, we're not saying we want to "replace" any other way of measuring bikes/frames. we're only stating that traditional methods don't always tell the entire story. most manufacturers report their geo numbers in different ways. this is just one step closer to having all manufacturers report in the same way for apples-to-apples comparing. our only real goal here with this is to get other manufacturers to list reach and stack along with all the other measurements currently being given. we're not replacing anything, just adding more info for those that can benefit from it.
3) of course you need other measurements in order to make reach and stack meaningful. fork height being of ultimate importance. i guess one way we could have made this "press release" better would be to have listed that fork height is really what determines the reach/stack measurements. every frame/bike was designed around an axle-to-crown measurement so obviously this plays a huge part in determining reach/stack. you simply can't have one without the other. our bad for not including the a-to-c in the drawing above.
4) the point of getting all manufacturers to report the numbers the same way is to aid in comparing "same use" bikes against each other. for example, if you're in the market for a slopestyle bike you really would want to look at all the bikes in the market for that use and compare the sizing. reach and stack help in determining what the actual size is (meaning, the relationship of BB to the handlebar position given the a-to-c and fork angle). Obviously you could misuse this information by comparing dis-similar bikes (ie: a DH bike with a DJ bike) which would make for utterly meaningless comparative info.
5) in all honesty this is not a "standard" so much as it is just a call to other manufacturers to start listing this information. we're not claiming we've come up with this new way of measureing (as noted in the press release, this measuring system is commonly used in other cycling disciplines). our point is to help drive adoption as we believe (as does Dave Turner) that it will ultimately help the consumer in understanding how a bike will fit them. The more info the better!
Hopefully this helps clarify the intent of this press release. To all the other manufacturers reading, hopefully you understand our intent here and don't feel daunted by the task of spending a few minutes and opening your drawing files, taking the measurements, and posting to your respective websites. i would think that disclaiming bike geometry to its fullest would be equally important for everybody in the business of selling bicycles.
well put
good job
strange that it's been so hard to clarify this to these people.
too many concussions? i don't know
it all makes sense
good job
strange that it's been so hard to clarify this to these people.
too many concussions? i don't know
it all makes sense
are you retarded? seriously. you care more about what your bike weighs than how it fits you?
the cockpit length of your bike is one of the most important things about the way your bike rides. that and bb height and chainstay length.
the way most companies measure the size of their bikes really tells you nothing about the actual length of your bike, because the seat angle is never the same. therefore, without doing a bunch of math, you can't tell how a bike will fit you.
read the rest of the posts about this, the only people against it are the ones who obviously don't know what their talking about. talk to pro's about how important the effective length of their cockpit is.
the cockpit length of your bike is one of the most important things about the way your bike rides. that and bb height and chainstay length.
the way most companies measure the size of their bikes really tells you nothing about the actual length of your bike, because the seat angle is never the same. therefore, without doing a bunch of math, you can't tell how a bike will fit you.
read the rest of the posts about this, the only people against it are the ones who obviously don't know what their talking about. talk to pro's about how important the effective length of their cockpit is.
The current standard of measure provides all the info required to properly size any bike. You might be suprised by how valuable many serious cyclists think having accurate weight info is. I'd guess that if you took an average group of cycling enthusiasts that was a representative sample of the community and asked them if they'd rather have this measurement available or frame (and/or complete bike) weight available, the vast majority would choose to have the weight. Glad to see someone buys into the hype though, keep up the good work!
you're obviously too dumb to understand
i've been as clear as i could possibly be. top tube length doesn't tell you how long your bike actually is. length of your bike= very important too how it rides.
oh, maybe thats it. you couldn't tell the difference how a bike rides anyways. you're too busy weighing your bike parts too ride them
i've been as clear as i could possibly be. top tube length doesn't tell you how long your bike actually is. length of your bike= very important too how it rides.
oh, maybe thats it. you couldn't tell the difference how a bike rides anyways. you're too busy weighing your bike parts too ride them
No good buddy, I'm on your side. I'm referencing the grandmastere. You and I both agree that size and fit are likely the most important measurements on a bike and that reach and stack provides another way to compare frames.
@bigtard-I'm not talking top tube length. I'm talking effective top tube length. Big difference. Read carefully.
@ds68698 + bigtard-The current measurement standard is perfect for all types of bikes. Want proof? Check out two years from now to see how many manufacturers are using other measurements. My money is on zero. Then, check out how many manufacturers list the weights of their products. It'll be more than zero. Don't worry, you'll have lost interest by then. Most people that have been cycling seriously for more than a season or two care about weight no matter what the discipline. Maybe we'll talk in 2 years when you each have 2.5 years of experience. Until then-enjoy the ride and leave the thinking to the qualified people.
@ds68698 + bigtard-The current measurement standard is perfect for all types of bikes. Want proof? Check out two years from now to see how many manufacturers are using other measurements. My money is on zero. Then, check out how many manufacturers list the weights of their products. It'll be more than zero. Don't worry, you'll have lost interest by then. Most people that have been cycling seriously for more than a season or two care about weight no matter what the discipline. Maybe we'll talk in 2 years when you each have 2.5 years of experience. Until then-enjoy the ride and leave the thinking to the qualified people.
i agre with transition on this the top tub langth is totaly rong way to mesher a bike up for some one. and it dose not chang but can be alterd with difrent parts. by a very smal amount. like if you had a hard tail with monster t's it will bring you closer to the bars but buy half an inch or so its pivit pount is off the rear wheel as the head tub angel will change with biger fork but still better way to mesher
Because something that works better is already in use. Same reason no one is going to start selling coal powered cars next year.
just to say, fork size would affect both, if you have 200mm forks on a jump bike, then the length of the reach would be shorter, but the stack would be higher, im assuming people are dumb enough to put a set of boxxers on a 24seven substance, this is affected becuas the stack is measured frm the central of the bb, perpindicular (at right-angle to) the chain stay if the frame was stood on a table and levelled, if you get me.
sorry to change the subject but,,,,,if bike companys want to standardise something then please could it be tyre size!!!!!give us two measurements one for the casing an another for tread width
THIS IS GOOD. QUIT QUIBBLING ABOUT IT.
IF YOUR MILDLY INTELLIGENT, THIS WILL HELP YOU FIGURE OUT THE ACTUAL SIZE OF A BIKES COCKPIT.
THIS COMBINED WITH ALL THE OTHER MEASUREMENTS, WILL HELP PEOPLE SIZE BIKES AND FIGURE OUT HOW A BIKE WILL FIT THEM.
THATS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW
IF YOUR MILDLY INTELLIGENT, THIS WILL HELP YOU FIGURE OUT THE ACTUAL SIZE OF A BIKES COCKPIT.
THIS COMBINED WITH ALL THE OTHER MEASUREMENTS, WILL HELP PEOPLE SIZE BIKES AND FIGURE OUT HOW A BIKE WILL FIT THEM.
THATS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW
[Reply]
That looks PHOTOSHOPPED!!!
There's no way that's real! PHOTOSHOPPED!!
PHOTOSHOPPED!!! PHOTOSHOPPED!!! PHOTOSHOPPED!!! PHOTOSHOPPED!!!
PHOTOSHOPPED!!! PHOTOSHOPPED!!! PHOTOSHOPPED!!! PHOTOSHOPPED!!!
There's no way that's real! PHOTOSHOPPED!!
PHOTOSHOPPED!!! PHOTOSHOPPED!!! PHOTOSHOPPED!!! PHOTOSHOPPED!!!
PHOTOSHOPPED!!! PHOTOSHOPPED!!! PHOTOSHOPPED!!! PHOTOSHOPPED!!!
Sorry, didn't read everything, but there's nothing new about it.
Nevertheless, the very good news is that 2 manufacturers agreed on the same name, and hopefully many others will follow!
Nice one guys
Nevertheless, the very good news is that 2 manufacturers agreed on the same name, and hopefully many others will follow!
Nice one guys
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