2013 Predictions: RC and Mike Levy Weigh In

Jan 3, 2013 at 0:09
Jan 3, 2013
by Richard Cunningham  
 
You must login to Pinkbike.
Don't have an account? Sign up

Join Pinkbike  Login

Filling the Holes Left by 2012
- RC

Many of the innovations and trends that we will see this season sprouted from seeds sewn in 2012, so to predict the future, I'll begin with a quick look in the rear-view mirror. To plant seeds, you need to dig holes, and some of the more conspicuous moments last year were the events that did not go as planned, or didn't happen at all. Shimano's response to SRAM's XXI one-by-eleven drivetrain was a significant hole, especially considering that it was its nine-tooth Capreo freehub and cassette that launched the concept. Shimano should be returning SRAM's serve in 2013. SRAM's hole is named 'Saint.' For as long as Big Red has been ripping it in DH, one would think that a dedicated DH group would already be in place. Deuce! It's safe to bet that SRAM's DH ensemble is on the horizon for 2013. X-Fusion is another family with a missing child. Hey already, where is that dual-crown fork? X-Fusion will now be racing with DVO to pop a production DH slider out before show season arrives this summer. The seed most of us were watching for last year failed to sprout - that reliable, low-cost dropper post for mid-priced OEM bikes. Hopefully it will grow to fruition in 2013.




Challenging The Status Quo: DVO
- Mike Levy

It will be a very long time before DVO is troubling the likes of FOX and RockShox when it comes to OEM spec and aftermarket sales, but that very fact will allow them to hone in on a small but important customer base: the high-end market. The 8-inch travel Emerald will be their first stab at it, and judging by the reception to our First Look article, the unapologetically upscale inverted DH fork has got that customer base to stand up and take notice. The fork utilizes some fresh ideas, mainly the one-piece carbon fiber CTD arch assembly that is claimed to dramatically improve rigidity, as well as the titanium collet leg clamps (that may or may not make it onto the production version), but it is DVO's approach of not trying to reinvent the wheel that has us betting on them producing a winner out of the gate. Rather than engineering an unduly complex damper system, DVO's Tom Rogers and Josh Baltaxe have taken their inspiration from the world of motocross, with a twin-tube damper that can be easily disassembled, tuned, and put back together. Yes, the same task can be done to the current players on the market, but rather than shun the idea and make it hard for owners to source vital parts, DVO is actually encouraging riders to jump into it. They claim that not only will shim kits and instructions be easy to come by, but they will even have seminars for those who really want to get serious. Sure, your tinkering may produce a fork that doesn't work as well right off the bat, but that is all part of the learning process, something many riders have been itching to get into. It would have been easy for DVO to cite warranty, liability, and performance concerns as per the competition, but their refreshing approach will likely win over many potential buyers. If the Emerald's performance can go halfway to meeting the hype, DVO will have a winner on their hands.
DVO Suspension





Two-Way Downhill Dropper Posts
- RC

The opening round of last season's World Cup DH at Pietermaritzburg, South Africa, saw a number of racers using dropper seatposts to shave time from the long pedaling segments of the course. Conventional droppers, however, are designed to default in the upper position to suit XC-ish riders who want to lower their saddles for descents. It occurred to me after a day on a big bike at Whistler that downhill posts need to react the opposite of a conventional dropper - as you need to be off the saddle to enter a technical section at exactly the moment you'd have to be pushing the post down. I laughed when Mike Levy predicted in last year's feature that he wanted a dropper post that went both ways with a push of a button, but that is exactly what is needed to make a DH-specific dropper. Powered by a large CO2 cartridge, or perhaps a battery and a servo motor, the DH dropper will power up to pedal height with a handlebar-mounted lever and when it comes time to drop into the scary bits, a single push of a button will disengage the mech and the post will
automatically default to the low saddle position. The two-way DH dropper will be race-specific at first, but considering that big bikes accelerate like Walmart shoppers, a DH dropper could be a plus for anyone. Photo: Manon Carpenter sports a dropper post at the South Africa WC DH - Colin Meagher





More Electronics
- Mike Levy

Maybe it's all Stanley Kubrick's fault? We might be more receptive of computer controlled aids if it wasn't for HAL 9000's rebellious ways. Or maybe we as riders are wary of losing some sort of fictional purity that we think we are holding on to, never mind that the bikes we ride have already been shaped by computers and use advanced technology to allow us to go faster. Whatever the reason, the topic of electronically-aided suspension is one that never fails to bring out impressive amounts of hostility from riders. RockShox's investment in their E:i system is evidence that we all may have to get used to the idea, though, and I have to say that I feel it will be for the better. The E:i system is what is
referred to as "adaptive suspension" - the shock's compression damping is adjusted automatically via a servo motor. The shock's "brain" is controlled by different sensors on the stem cap, fork lowers, and hidden within the bottom bracket shell that tell it what the rider is doing and the expected severity of the upcoming impact. This allows the shock's compression damping to be altered within 0.01 of a second (which sounds quick, but there is some debate as to if that is actually quick enough) so that it can firm up for a large impact or be more open for smaller trail irregularities. The result should be more control and more traction, and we're betting that the E:i system will pop up on a few unexpected bikes and places in 2013. Are you scared? You shouldn't be - the bike is still under your control, and if the battery, which is said to last 24 hours at 250 suspension adjustments an hour, runs out, you are left with a standard rear shock that still features the same manual adjustments we're all familiar with. I don't know about you, but I sure as hell won't feel guilty about reaping the benefits of such a system. Expect more of this in the future - we have a hunch that FOX is working on something, and Marzocchi is showing off an even more advanced semi-active system that employs electronic valves within a prototype motorbike bike fork.

We're a weird club: we often drool over the latest carbon fiber wonder bikes and whatever drivetrain has the most cogs, but our hackles get raised at the mere mention of electronics infiltrating our bike's suspension. The idea is far from new, with branches of the concept being employed in the motorized world for many, many years. While most men have images of certain scantily clad females floating about in their head, I fantasize about a completely active suspension system on my bike of the future, one where both the front and rear end work in unison to not only damp the impacts just right, but also preserve the bike's angles more efficiently. Such a setup is pure mountain bike fantasy, but a man can dream, can't he?
Photo: RockShox Monarch RT3 Relay damper on an E:i equipped Lapierre Zesty




Changes in the Wind for Freeride and Slopestyle Competition
- RC

Two of the sport's most celebrated events, the Red Bull Joyride at Whistler and Red Bull Rampage, are poised for a redesign. Both are Diamond-Level events on the FMB World Tour, and after the Rampage was aired on network television, it is almost certain that more of the FMB tour will also air this year.

Cam Zink launches a huge flip-nac on the 60-footer at Joyride 2012. - Ian Hylands photo


Rider's view of the same jump suggests the commitment: ignore the satellite dishes, get your trick in, and then drop from 40 feet into oblivion for a precise landing on the back-side (plus or minus one meter). Yannick Granieri stuck this giant tuck no-handed flip. Zink overshot and crashed out of the event. - Fraser Britton photo



Slopestyle Progresses to a New Level
- RC

Watch the 2012 Joyride - it was a breath-holder from start to finish, but not always for the best of reasons. Wind was a factor, but breezy conditions alone could not be blamed for the ensuing yard sales that took a heavy toll on riders and equipment. The mood was pensive from the starting tower to the crowds below, as anticipation for the spectacular shifted to hope for a clean run. As most of the top seeds limped out of contention, it became clear that the formula was missing some ingredients.

cwx

Most of the record-crowd at Joyride 2012 were riders - men and women who understand both the risk and the consequence of going big. It is written on their faces. - Margus Riga photo


My predictions for pro slopestyle venues at the magnitude of the Red Bull Joyride are evolutionary. Bikes and components will begin to evolve to meet the higher stress levels of the bigger events. I envision wheels built with stronger rims and with wider hub-flange spacing to better handle off-angle landings, and a new tire strategy, perhaps one that pairs a high-pressure carcass with stiffer DH-type sidewall. Rear suspension, designed specifically for slopestyle competition, will be appearing under a larger number of competitors. Course designers have been absolutely on top of it, but now that fifty foot gaps and drops are becoming commonplace, there will be a movement to produce a standardized method of determining entry speeds and ramp curves that are based upon both empirical knowledge and hard-core physics - which will then be applied to all the venues on the pro tour to give riders the consistency they need to trick features. Finally, (and I know this is a stretch), pro riders will begin to experiment with various wind angles and velocities under controlled conditions in order to dial in body positions and adjust their technique. Wind machines or movable ramps are practical solutions. It makes sense that if wind is so often a factor in competition that top competitors perfect methods to minimize its effect, or to use it to their advantage.


Red Bull Rampage Spawns a New Series
- RC

'Professional Freeriding' is a bit of an oxymoron if you think about it, but there is no question that the Red Bull Rampage is the showcase for the sport that helped launch Pinkbike. It's got all the right elements - Big Bikes, teams of diggers throwing in to create impossible lines, massive air, and it's staged on a palette of vert that strikes fear into the hearts of all but the most accomplished riders.

Kurt Sorge rides to the win at Red Bull Rampage in Virgin Utah on 7 October 2012

Kurt Sorge rides to the win at the Red Bull Rampage, 2012. The scale of the stunts, both artificial and rider-built, make it the standout event of the FMB World Tour. - Ian Hylands photo


Based upon the nature and the numbers of comments we received about the 2012 Rampage, it seems that it may have outgrown the FMB Tour. With the majority of FMB events featuring groomed stunts that cater to slopestyle riders, the Rampage is forced to straddle the fence. Can a freeride event be judged fairly by slopestyle criteria? The popular vote was 'no.' The size and unique nature of the Rampage warrants its own series - a true freeride tour that is judged in the spirit of an edgier riding style on ungroomed terrain. FMB's recent announcement that the Red Bull Rampage will return again this year (it normally runs biannually) suggests that the organizers will be presenting at least some of those changes. I predict, however, that the Rampage will ultimately spawn a new freeride tour.





More Short-Travel Bikes In Your Garage
- Mike Levy

One year ago I made a prediction that more and more riders would be turning their backs on mushy long-travel bikes in favor of sharper handling and much lighter short-travel rigs. I took some heat for that, but then I made a better argument for my case with this article, which, I admit, didn't receive the loathing that I thought it would. All-mountain, trail, cross-country, call them whatever you want, but riders are seeing that such bikes make a lot of sense, especially as they continue to evolve into more and more capable machines. Not
only are these multi-faceted rigs more proficient than many of us suspect, but they are also infinitely more versatile than raked-out downhill sleds. Do an honest appraisal of how and where you ride, then match your bike's travel and wheel-size to that without the inflated self image we are all guilty of applying to ourselves...There is a very good chance you'll end up picturing a very different bike than the one currently in your garage, and I'm willing to bet, more often than not, it will have less travel.





New Component Standards for 29ers
- RC

Big-wheel bike makers have been slow to project the 29er into the long-travel market, partly because the accepted perception is that big wheels make up for suspension travel, so up to now, there has been little incentive for them to push past the 130 millimeter travel barrier. The re-emergence of 650B, however, will light a fire under their butts, as the mid-size wheel offers bike designers a way to circumvent the superior roll-over claims of the 29er guys, with a package that delivers uncompromised frame geometry and rear-wheel travel comparable to conventional wheeled all-mountain and DH bikes. But before the 29er can sprout longer legs, it will have to develop some big-wheel-specific component standards - some of which exist and others that must be invented. Breaking through the 29er travel
barrier will require a redesign of many major components: Wider bottom bracket shells and crank spacing to move the chain-line outwards in order to make room for wider tires and shorter chain stays. Zero-offset crankarms to return the Q-factor back to normal. Wider rear-axle spacing (probably 145mm) to move the cassette cogs in line with the chainring and wider hub-flange spacing to reduce the spoke angle and strengthen the wheel. Up front, wider hub flanges may require a wider axle and fork crown metrics. Heavy wheels are already a thorn in the side of the 29er, so to keep the weight down, wider, lightweight carbon rims, and tires with wide, aggressive tread and low-profile sidewalls must be considered. Because the front derailleur swings into the exact spot that the tire must occupy, SRAM's XXI drivetrain is tailor-made for the new 29er - long-travel plus big wheels equals no front mech. Other component makers will be pressured to follow. Where the big trouble occurs for the long-travel 29er, however, is that suspension designers must figure out a way to keep the bike's chain stays short enough to ensure proper handling, and still figure out a way to arc the wheel away from the rider's butt when the saddle is slammed. Accomplishing this miracle will no doubt throw bike designers into the snake-pit of dubious and conflicting suspension patents. For the 29er to progress into the realm of the 150 to 200 millimeter travel bike - and it must in order to maintain momentum in the market place - I predict that many of those standards will be introduced this coming year - a few, released to the public, most, unmarked and on secret prototypes. Photo: Niner R.I.P. 9 RDO - Niner Bikes





The Inevitability
of 650B

- RC

I am happy to report that there will be no KGB agents driving across North America in black Chevy Suburbans, contracted to pry your 26-inch-wheel bike from your cold, dead fingers. So, before you get your panties in a bunch about a third wheel size, please read the last paragraph of the 29er prediction above and then consider this: Regardless of whether you like the 29er format or not, it has been proved without a doubt that a larger-diameter
wheel, in the neighborhood of 29 inches, rolls measurably faster and with less effort over unpaved surfaces than a 26-inch wheel does. So, for riders who want the most performance they can get from their bike, the unspoken question is: If you don't like 29-inch wheels, then what larger-diameter wheel format will you choose? From this point onward, those who choose to ride a 26-inch-wheel bike must add a reason. It can be as simple as liking 26-inch wheels better - and I am happy with that - but the fact that you need a reason at all is passive acceptance that to some degree you have chosen a less-efficient means to ride a bike on the dirt.

I predict that 650B is inevitable, but it will not overwhelm the North American market this year. Where the mid-size wheel makes the most sense is on bikes ranging in travel from 150 to 200 millimeters. Unlike the 29er, the 650B format requires only three alterations in the present standards for components: wheel diameter, tire diameter and fork geometry. Beyond its efficient roll-over component, the tangible benefits of 650B include a bottom bracket that sits significantly lower than the axle height for improved cornering and big-hit performance, significantly lighter wheels (vs 29-inch), conventional frame and steering geometry, and an optimal handlebar/steering height. Three compelling forces are powering 650B into the market: Presently, the greatest motivator of the trio is that European mountain bikers resented the 29er when it first arrived because it was being forced upon them. The mid-size wheel gives the remaining doubters and haters there a hall pass to accept a larger wheel, while at the same time rejecting the 29er. Expectedly, the projected numbers of 650B bikes in Europe for 2013 are substantial. The second reason is that top bike designers who now have extensive experience with 29ers have pushed the genre as far as it can reasonably go, and have now moved on to explore a more promising wheel size for their longer travel models. The last reason, unfortunately, is that the newness of 29ers has worn off and Docker-wearing marketing managers with crated Pugs under their desks need something fresh and cool to put into their bike lines. Pick your poison, 650B is here to stay. Photo: Rocky Mountain's carbon-framed Altitude 790 MSL 650B trailbike - Rocky Mountain




Must Read This Week









276 Comments

  • + 244
 2013 predictions... More $$$.
  • + 16
 very true
  • + 191
 No kidding. Apparently we all need new short travel bikes with weird sized wheels. I don't ride my bike to be "efficient", I ride for fun!
  • + 18
 Thanks for providing a TL;DR version.
  • + 16
 redrook - the funny thing is there is no proof 650 or 29 is more efficent over the whole trail. Only sections of it.
  • + 29
 I had a Giant Anthem 29er and went back to a 26" wheel. The 29er was definitely a fast bike and it rolled over just about anything. You really didn't have to stress too much about line choice especially in rocky terrain BUT...on tight technical single track or trails with limited sight lines and abrupt tight corners...riding a 29er is like trying to negotiate a school bus through the woods. I can't speak for a 650b bike though.

Choose your weapon based on your local trail situation I guess. If you live in a place where your trails are wide open and you can spot your line from a mile away then a 29er will rip. If you live in an area where your trails are tight, narrow, and have limited sight lines...26" bikes are much more nimble and keeping momentum up isn't as critical. If you loose momentum on a 29er (which could happen often on super tight trails) they are IMO more difficult to get rolling again.
  • + 38
 We all want new bikes, new parts...... we are all guilty of it. It's fun. So who cares. I don't care about different wheel sizes, new drivetrain options ect ect.... I think it's fantastic. So many people bitching about "having" to buy new bike parts, like somebody has a gun to their head. Bikes are better than they ever were.. more options, more performance, better value. Sorry, but I have been riding mountain bikes since the 90's and things have only gotten better every year. 2013, bring it on.
  • + 7
 A 650b wheel with a single ply XC tire is the same diameter as a 26in wheel with a DH tire on it, and they'll weigh about the same (the 650b might be a bit lighter if the DH tire is a 2ply). 650b isn't as big a jump or as big a change as the market would like you to think. The DH crowd has been running 650b diameters (26in wheel, DH tire) on their 26in bikes for half a decade now...
  • + 10
 I think that fact that 650b isn't all that big a jump from 26" is what has many skeptical. The way its being hyped its somewhat hard to fathom that such a small difference could make such a noticeable difference in performance. Like them or not, something like the 29er offered something truly different. Some like them, some don't, but there is no denying that it offered a difference in performance. I think people need to see more of the 650b before buying in that its the next big thing.
  • + 2
 Do I think 650B is absolutely needed ? No. But personally I might be tempted to go with that size for a pure xc rig for myself. Because Im 5'8" every 29inch bike I have ridden feels like a wagon. A short travel hardtail would benifit from some slightly bigger wheels. My long legged bikes will always rock 26. I don't think 650B is the next big thing. But for some, for certain bikes, it's a nice option.
  • + 17
 Ah I figured someone would respond to RC's 650B or 29er comment with a blatant lie... and I wasn't dissappointed.

" A 650b wheel with a single ply XC tire is the same diameter as a 26in wheel with a DH tire on it, and they'll weigh about the same (the 650b might be a bit lighter if the DH tire is a 2ply). "

That's a total crock of cow patties...

First off, to get a 26" tire to the exact same diameter as a 650B requires stepping up to a 26 x 2.7 width and hardly anybody even today actually rides DH with such mighty sized rubber. They certainly don't use them on their AM trail bikes or their XC bikes. There are probably more people who own fat bikes (and are using much wider tires) in north america now than own bikes with such big DH tires on them. And I'm sorry, but those size of DH tires just don't get made in anything other than 2-ply heavy duty casings. And with all that rubber and those casings, you have a LOT of weight. The HEAVIEST 650B trail bike tire on the market now is the Hans Damf 2.4 (but its even larger diameter than a 26 x 2.7) and its only about 850 grams. Apples and Oranges though comparing XC to DH tires. This sorta lame ass comparison has been tried for years now on mtbr, a site where 650B was better embraced and better debated... for FIVE years now. The main group complaining about the format actually wasn't 26er owners afraid of the new size, but by 29er owners afraid to admit they'd made a mistake and bought into the wrong wheelsize.

Want to make a fair comparison? Then comparing the same MAKE/MODEL of tire would make more sense wouldn't it? Schwalbe makes the Racing Ralph in all three diameters at the same nominal width (2.25") and the same casing/tread (TL-bead, Pacestar compound) . The 26er version is claimed 495 grams and has a measured diameter of 26.53", the 650B version is claimed 530 grams and is measured at 27.48" diameter and the 29er version is claimed 535 grams and measured diameter of 29.13".
  • + 7
 @deeeight

My point wasn't that 650b and 26" wheels are so similar that they aren't worth comparing. My point was simply that tire choice makes a big enough difference in wheel size that it's worth considering. I am one of those unicorns that uses 2.7 dual ply casings on my DH/FR rig. There's no doubt that a 2-ply casing 2.7 is much heavier than the Hans Dampf you describe, but in order to achieve the same strength (in avoiding flat spots, and knocking the rims out of true), a 650b wheel needs to be heavier than a 26in wheel which, and although that weight addition is not huge, the added mass makes the weight difference between the wheel sizes significantly less profound - especially if you're running tubeless.

You are absolutely right, the most fair comparison will come in terms of comparing the same tire in different diameters. I wasn't attempting to comment on the width of the SAME tires on different wheel sizes.

And you're right, nobody is going to use a 2-ply 2.7 tire on their XC bike, and I wouldn't expect them too. Again, I was simply commenting on the fact that 650b is not that big a jump from 26in and that running bigger tires will give you a similar diameter on a 26" bike as running smaller tires on a 650b bike. I didn't think that comment was going to spark such a charged response. I don't disagree with you, I was just making a general point about wheel diameter as it relates to tire size.
  • + 15
 Working at a bike shop, I have plenty of demo bikes I can choose from to play with. I own an EX 8, and for cross country I ride a Trek 6000 with XT. Yes, I race XC on a 26" hardtail, why? Because I hate the way the 29ers I ride handle. I like to have fun even when I'm racing, I use technical handling skills to keep up with the guys on the 29ers because they lack those skills, and I'm still remaining competitive around here. 29er may be more efficient when climbing and pedaling, but it sure as hell isn't fun to ride over the rough stuff, you feel like you just roll over everything, not nimbly darting through the obstacles.

Just ride what you want to ride to have fun! Don't listen to what the market is saying, you don't need to have the latest wheel size and the latest drivetrain to go out and shred, this sport is about fun, isn't it?
  • - 2
 @swkshepherd....

You have very little PERSONAL DO IT YOURSELF experience with wheelbuilding don't you? I've been wheelbuilding for 20 years now. The knocking rims out of true/flatspotting crap... that doesn't change significantly as you seem to imagine it does by going up an inch in rim diameter. I built my first 650B wheelset FIVE years ago using Hope hubs, DT Revolution spokes, alloy nipples and Velocity Blunt rims. I've got zero flat spots, and they haven't needed more than minor re-truing in all the riding they've had (many thousands of miles). Come to think of it, in 25 years of mountain biking, I don't think I've flat spotted any rims except from running under-inflated tires and slamming into rocks or curbs. Only rims I've outright destroyed was from finishing rides/races without tires on them.

The added weight, comparing the same models of rims in different diameters...is MINOR compared to the amount of tire rubber needed to get the same inflated diameters. This is a KNOWN fact in every other industry that involves wheels with tires on them, but somehow with mountain bikers its some strange witchdoctor voodoo all of a sudden. Rubber is a lot denser than aluminium. And as to the spokes being longer... an extra 8 to 10mm per spoke, over a 32 spoke wheel, adds up to about 1.5 spokes extra weight... for the spokes I use... at less than 5 grams per spoke... I can afford the 7 1/2 grams. The Velocity Blunts which I used, are about 410 grams for a 26er, 460 grams for a 650B and 490 grams for a 700C.
  • + 10
 @ deeeight

No, I have never once built a wheelset myself and I do not intend to. Nor can I afford any of the components listed above. If I had a fixed amount of income and had to build a 26in wheelset and a 650b wheelset of the same strength the 650b would be heavier - I don't know the numbers because I've never run them.

This back and forth has already taken up too much space. You have numbers to validate your points (none of which I disagree with). I'm not going to argue grams and inches with you. I was originally making a general comment and didn't intend to take up all this internet real estate.

I'll end on this - I've ridden a 26", 27.5", and a 29" and I'll be buried with my 26er.
  • + 3
 If you have never flat spotted a wheel you are either A) A rather a light person or B) Have never pushed you or your equipment hard enough. I am not saying "ride it till it breaks" but at least see how far it can go. I flat spotted a ZTR Flow. It's safe to say i am now running downhill wheels on an all-mountain bike.
  • + 10
 More money my a$$!!!! I can go plenty fast on my stuff. More then enough for giggles and scares. Why should I waste money on all this new crap?

Some things do make sense. Active suspension bits are an example, but what rush have I or any of you? If you are not at the very edge of what your bike is capable of, why spend the money for an extra bit of performance you aren't going to use?
  • + 2
 So if i don't snap my frame i should have bought a weaker one or rode till it did snap?
  • + 5
 Ztr flows are not what i would call durable rims. They may be better than the arch or crest but thats still not saying much. As to my weight, with gear i am over two hundred pounds.
  • + 1
 "I am not saying "ride it till it breaks" but at least see how far it can go." Your comprehension of my comment is interesting.
  • + 1
 The question that I have for people hating on 29, and saying that they aren't nimble enough through technical sections is: Do you ride the same size 29 as 26? What bikes did you ride that are 29? Are they either 2012 or 2013 models?

My background is racing BMX, moto, and DH. In order to properly judge a 29, one will almost always want to step the size down one size from 26 to 29. At 6' tall, I ride a large 26 and a medium 29. I'm a top level Amateur racer hoping to get a Pro license this year. In my experience, on the same AM trail that takes 3:00 minutes on a 26, I was able to shed almost 10 seconds off of my time. Not trying to force anything on anybody, but I have definitely seen a performance gain for an AM application. Each to their own, but lets back our opinions up with facts from personal experience rather than speculation.
  • + 1
 I'm six-six when I'm slouching (which is 99.9% of the time) and taller if I actually make an effort to stand up straight. Twenty years ago I learned how to setup a bike myself for my size... I've setup every bike (and I'm in triple digit numbers now for how many bikes I've owned) since to fit me the same way. Once you figure out how long a reach you need, and how much distance to the pedals from your ass, and how far above/below the saddle height you want your saddle... and actually write those numbers down, or setup all your bikes the same way...its easy to figure out what size frame you'll need to order regardless of the wheel diameter.

I am also NOT afraid to break with the current trending fashions and run longer stems, change my seatpost offset, or run not humongowide bars in order to be comfortable on my bike, and not ride it like a clown just to look like the cool dude in some magazine or some video. Trying to setup bikes and riders to look like pro's is how lycra shorts took hold in the mtb world in the 80s/90s and why we ended up riding 21-22" wide flat bars with bar-ends. I'm forty years old now, and I don't have to make myself or my bikes look like riders from magazines.
  • + 3
 being in my 40s as well, i just wanna get my manualling skill back. haha. @ what age should i stop saying "stoked". my kiddo and i like that word! RC, Mike..no love for klunkin'?
  • + 7
 angry bunch tonight. Happy new year?
  • + 2
 I really think that these huge companies (Sram, Shimano, etc.) need to make this high-tech expensive stuff more readily available. It's getting to the point where if you want to upgrade one part or aspect of your bike, you NEED new everything to make that "good" part work well. A little affordability could go a long way for the companies and the public in the earlier stages of production of new parts in getting the average rider into the new-school tech.
  • + 3
 @fullbug: You should stop being stoked when you're dead. :-)
  • + 2
 @BDKR- not if i dial my manuals in before that! if my kiddo thinks i'm cool i take that stoke into the afterlife!
  • + 1
 Brendan fairclough has been ripping on a 650B for months now and his risings style is tight and fast and it looks fine and he says it rides really well too, so I think 650B is the best of both worlds you can still role over more stuff and carry more speed but still ride right twisty trails.
  • + 1
 He hasn't been riding it on the WC circut. The only time Scott tried it was in Leo on Claudios bike. Double flats.
  • + 0
 First mtb started out on hardtails with colorfull anodized parts with wide flat bars and v brakes. Then it went to 5" travel shore huck bikes with shorter riser bars and black parts with disc brakes. Then the light weight craze started as xc and freeride blended. This was a time of uncertainty as companies struggle to make appealing bikes while competing with eachother. Now we back to the rainbow anodize parts, wide flat bars, as many gadgets and cables you can fit. I come from very tight 20" dirt jump background so 26" wheels are monster sized and all I ever going to use. Nobody is saying stop producing the large wheels for big diameter enthusiasts. All I saying is offer options for riders. If you invest in us we invest in you. I saw a guy doing flairs on a 12' half pipe on a 700c road bike. That doesnt mean I buying a cinelli and hitting the park tmrw. The same goes for this big wheel craze, its not for everybody. Some riders care about wheel velocity testing on paved roads. I call them spandex roadees. There has always been this divide in mtb since day one. On one side you have the road geeks looking to get a little dirty, and the other side come from bmx or moto and have natural talent. There will always be no talent riders striving to buy skills thru mechanical gadgetry and real riders jumping over their heads. Go buy the big wheels fruity colored geek machines if thats your fancy. We be right there laughing when you have to walking around all our jumps.
  • + 1
 It's really bizarre how threatened, a lot of 26" riders get (i know not all of them) about 29er riders. Like, I ride 29, but i never put myself on one side of a fence and say "ah yeah, all you 26ers f*ckin suck you f*ckin troglodites! WTF are you even doing!?!?! Call yourself mountain bikers? You're not doing it right you backward retards!!!" You know, cos I genuinely don't care. You ride your bike and I'll ride mine; we're all having a good time.

Also this idea that is perpetuated here that 29er riders have no skills and can't huck to flat? Like half of these guys will have been riding 26ers (DH, AM or XC) and maybe road bikes for years anyways and will have the skills and the fitness to back it up and the other half will be just taking cycling up but will probably be just as inhibited as someone starting out on 26 by their own fear so will be just as slow... Nothing new here then. Maybe they'll just fall off less?

That, and the problem people like deeeight seem to have with anyone who responds positively to a new idea, as if they're buying into any old stupid shit. Some people have liked wide bars since they came popular some didn't, same with short stems... and dropper seatposts... and disc brakes... and suspension. It's no good getting all sanctimonious about it. Other people have different opinions than you... doesn't hurt.

scbullit36 already put it so well: 'Choose your weapon based on your local trail situation I guess. If you live in a place where your trails are wide open and you can spot your line from a mile away then a 29er will rip. If you live in an area where your trails are tight, narrow, and have limited sight lines...26"' Why all the hate? Options? We like options? No?
  • + 3
 Because there are many militant 29ers. The ones who will try to convince you to buy one even though you haven't even thought about it and when you say no they will still talk to you. I know way to many people like that.
  • + 1
 That's not a reason to be a militant 26er. Nor does it counter any of the points I made. You could easily switch 26 for 29 and vice versa in that comment (except for the bit about the perception of 29ers not being able to huck).
[Reply]
  • + 57
 Wait....no 1x12? You kiddin me Mike?
  • + 10
 yeah whats up with 2x10 anyways?
  • + 15
 1X13 would be better ...haha .
  • + 53
 ...but still not as good as a lightweight internal gearbox.
  • + 18
 I agree with protour, manufacturers should be going towards light, affordable internal gearboxes. i think the derraileur is one of the bikes most fragile parts and it sits in a spot thats its easy to get damaged. i've been riding for six years now and already broke 4 derraileurs and 2 hangers
  • + 49
 I agree with protour too... Is this the apocalypse?!
  • + 30
 You agree with Protour?!
Never thought I'd hear anyone say that!
  • + 4
 internal gearbox... if you believe it will ever go under 4lbs (being reliable and long lasting) vs 2lbs of current SLX, and anywhere below the price tag of XTR/X0 and similar availability of spare parts, I wish you all a very good luck! You will sooner get ABS, automatic shifter and traction control on the bike than a light and affordable gearbox.

Sorry but... as the country of Gearbox development says: unmöglich!
  • + 3
 Strangely enough...I'm going to agree with you on this Wakldesigns. The cost and complexity with a custom built frame, let alone standard is just too much of a pain for most people, component and frame makers to justify the cost. I agree that gear boxes are the way to go, but until we get past those barriers it's going to be difficult to find a happy medium.
  • + 1
 i agree too. Gearboxes will always be appealing and cool. But they will always be a propriatary frame/gearbox combo. imo. They will also be mostly found on FR and DH rigs and only really have benefit on those types of bikes.
  • + 9
 Honestly..... and I might get some flak for this. I have never had a "problem" with breaking off rear derraileurs. I don't know what people are doing thats causing rear mechs to explode into smithereens every time they go out. I have bent a few hangers, no big deal, and yeah I have had a stick get caught in my rear wheel and rendered an XT unit inop. But I have not seen it as an "issue". Especially with Shimano's shadow mechs. My Saint on my DH race bike has the scars to prove it's met up with some rocks. Still shifts crisply and precise. Im not anti-gearbox. At all. But I think it's more trouble than it's really worth given factors like the weight, complexity, frame accomodations, friction (loss of efficiancy). My prediction is that they stay a "boutique" item. A curiosity if you will. And a very very cool one at that.
  • + 2
 3 speed internal geared hub, with Dura Ace 9000 11 speed on the rear, and a gearbox up front. WHAT NOW MIKE.
  • + 2
 Lightweight gear box? Funny! I have lodged my derailleur into my wheel, broke a spoke and snapped the hangar all at once. The Sram XO derailleur wasn't even tweaked. So as for them being fragile, this is a false statement.
  • + 3
 Hey Waki, you should post your blog on the homepage in response to this.
  • + 4
 OMG Wakki and Protour in the same thread?
  • + 2
 all we need is BIKENERD007 and then it would be complete
  • + 1
 Yea OS and Eric - we will soon do a negprop gang up on you guys.
  • + 2
 smithereens... they make some good music.
  • + 1
 Deraileurs will always be superior, lighter, faster, more reliable, cheaper. Gearboxes are good in concept but don't work in practice and if they did, do you think SRAM and shimano would still be spending loads of time and money on develop dearaileurs ? No because they would spend that time and money on gearboxes.
[Reply]
  • + 32
 i think i speak on behalf of pretty much everyone when i say to manufacturers.....GEARBOX PLEASE! for the love of all that is good, do what you have to do to make it happen.
  • + 3
 www.pinkbike.com/news/Pinion-gearbox-first-ride-2011.html it has bin made. but what use is it if you cant fit it to the frame you want
  • + 3
 gripshift :/
  • + 7
 www.pinkbike.com/photo/2386795 one guy did this, so im sure they could make a more refined production version
  • + 1
 thats pretty awesome
  • + 2
 I fully agree with this the gearbox is the future of our sport and should be being researched more and put into production. Somehow I dont think the manufacturers want to go this route as they have already spent huge sums on researching the derailleur system. A gearbox manufacturer needs to produce a bolt on gearbox to do away with the derailleur. It could be a huge opportunity for someone out there if they can get a system that works and and is reliable.
[Reply]
  • + 27
 WAKI predicitons from WAKi-Leaks - waaaaay better than this above, we all know that Mike and RC, but this is what you don't know! Face the future in AMelectro!

All about new standards

www.pinkbike.com/u/WAKIdesigns/blog/WAKi-Leaks-1-SaintEN.html
[Reply]
  • + 21
 OR, we could restore real DH courses like Schladming and Champery and other ones that employ the same characteristics to the freaking World Cup and we wouldn't need "DH specific" dropper posts. THINK ABOUT HOW RIDICULOUS THE TERM DH DROPPER POST ACTUALLY IS!
  • + 4
 I am so with you on that one. There is one serious track left around here, the rest has been turned into smooth highways so the weekend warriors don't scratch up their shiny rides...
  • + 2
 I agree, I still think pedaling sections are good to have on some of the WC tracks because it shows who can pedal well and a riders fitness level. But when there are tracks like South Africa where your pedaling enough to use a dropper post maybe that section of the track should be changed, the rest is amazing with its huge table tops etc., it is downhill racing not downhill with some flat sections.
[Reply]
  • + 21
 Unfortunately I think as someone who almost purely rides DH 2013 won't be that interesting besides DVO. I don't need a 29er, or 650b, electronic suspension probably won't ever be fast or robust enough for DH. I'm not a world cup racer so I've never thought about putting a dropper post on my park bike. And 1x11 doesn't do much for me, I only ever use 6 gears. I feel like a minority sometimes.
  • + 6
 There's always the world cup season to look forward too.
  • - 4
 And as long as Gwinn and Binggeli and others racing 650Bs don't keep beating you this season, you can stick to thinking there's nothing interesting happening out there other than the coming of DVO.
  • + 4
 But I'm not a guy who is riding to win or to beat anyone. I just wanna get down the hill with some buds having a blast. Reliability trumps pertformance and the lastest doo-dads for me.
[Reply]
  • + 20
 Yeah, servomotors, computers, electronic sensors...

The next step will be a chip with a distance limit, beyond which suspension will be block and we had to go to the authorized service center for a warranty repair.

I wish more durable&reliable&lightweight parts like Chris King headsets or DT Swiss freehubs.
Or a efficient gearbox, which can I fix at home.
[Reply]
  • + 18
 RC, you wrote; "but the FACT that you need a reason at all (to ride 26" -ed) is passive acceptance that to some degree you have chosen a less-efficient means to ride a bike on the dirt."

What fact? Why the trolling? And why the pretentious attitude, that what you think, is a actually a "FACT".

I hereby invite you to write me a pm, so that I can show you my AM lines, bring whatever bike you want, as long as its a 29 or 27,5", lets ride a few days, and lets have a genuine and objective talk about wheelsize. I dare you.
  • + 12
 Personally, I think it doesn't matter what wheel you ride, as long as you like it. I have one in every size, and I ride the one that has air in the tires. Bikes will progress, its my job to report on that. If you don't want change, hop off the bus on any stop along the way and just go ride. Hope we do get that chance some day cheers, RC
  • + 10
 Not everyone on here likes to ride the special bus with every silly mountain bike fad that comes along. Remember 810mm flat bars?

You should accept that a lot of riders are quite rightly suspicious of the rediculous marketing claims that bike companies make on a monthly basis. If you say they are better, you MUST provide evidence to support it.
  • + 5
 I won't ride another wheel size until it is the universal standard like 26". Unless you're a pro xc'er you aren't going to notice any difference, especially if you ride for the fun of it rather than for the "efficiency". Nor will I trade my dh bike for a short travel rig, I wan't to ride everywhere, not specific places more efficiently.
  • + 7
 RC stating that 650b are better at rolling and without talking about any possible downsides is a bit one sided and it makes you look like you are not a journalist but a PR person for the industry. I thought you left MBA to shake off that image.

Why do I have to give you a fact for riding 26er where you forget about many problems that come with a larger wheel size?
  • + 4
 There are more and more people reporting 650B to be not something in the middle between 26er and 29er, but instead somethig that misses advantages of both. It is not as playful as 26 and not as fast and 29. It comes actualy from one (at least) of journalists working with PB, but well... my dad around 60 is also 100% positive towards everything that's new, and I respect that.
  • + 3
 Waki - It depends what you want. I understand some people will benefit from 650B but the idea it is the new bike god and we will all have to have an excuse for riding 26ers because of them is the problem here.

Though one thing that makes me wonder is why RC so often talks about what's good for FR/DH segment when he isn't part of the scene and rides AM and trail.
  • + 6
 I don't need to excuse to anyone what I ride. It depends who are your friends I guess Big Grin There are more and more people frustrated with the whole thing, few more of these and the people who gain most on this nonsense, manufacturers, will actualy loose money. People will just have enough soon. This isn't diversity anymore this is waste and confusion.

And RC, I also have a big ego I would probably also endulge pushing my views more than I should on people if I had his position and possibilities... he's a bit too pushy, but whatever, it's an opinion I respect that he pushes it, even if I don't agree. I'm so fed up with people talking bladi bla this and that without really saying what they mean. I like open topics but sometimes someone must nail it.
  • + 4
 @Waki

There are definitely more and more trolls reporting it as a failed format sure, and its no longer just 29er owners afraid of lost interest in the candy cane they went and bought because of the new lollipop in the store window... but that doesn't actually make them anything other than just trolls. Didn't anyone ever tell you that you shouldn't feed the trolls ?
  • + 1
 >Not everyone on here likes to ride the special bus with every silly mountain bike fad that comes along.

So if someone buys into what you feel is a fad, they're mentally handicapped? Get off your high horse and just let people enjoy what they want.

You guys are so f*cking ridiculous sometimes. OH SHIT! SOMEONE DOESN'T LIKE WHAT I LIKE! IDIOTS!!!!
  • + 0
 I find the number of people commenting on 650b amusing. It took me one ride on a 650b bike to feel the "wow, this is great" moment. For the past 6 months, getting rims/tires/tubes has been a nightmare as all the stock has been behind the demand. Where are people getting the components from to provide the real world ride reports? They simply haven't been available since the Olympics. None of the LBSs in my area had any stock, ebay was blank, CRC didn't have anything. Anyone who rides one and doesn't like it is simply looking for a reason not to. I don't have a 29er, and have little desire to have one. I really cannot see the disadvantage of 650b after riding one this past year. I have nothing against 26" wheels, but I have no need to keep them, and I have some really nice 26" wheels.
  • + 1
 "... It occurred to me after a day on a big bike at Whistler that downhill posts need to react the opposite of a conventional dropper..." Sorry RC but if you thought of a dropper post while riding Whistler you spent most of your time riding Easy Does It or Bear Cub. That comment alone leads me to believe that while you have been writing about bikes for a while, most of the time you base your "predictions" based on personal riding skills and your own experience as a rider and not as a product development especialist.
  • - 4
 Deeeight, sorry but read what you wrote again and if you don't find irony in it about yourself then be on guard...
  • + 1
 I figured out ages ago that you were a troll waki... i don't need to be on guard about that.
  • + 0
 Willie1 the one problem I have with being pushed new bike gear is placebo or hype effect - You buy a new shiny thing and for the first season you only notice the positives and don't see the downfalls. Been there done that. That's a big problem with the bike industry. Instead of being concentrated on creating a blanaced bike that is reliable and has no glaring issues we are obsessed with getting bikes that have one super special 80000V gizmo and we forget there is a price to be paid for such ideas.
  • - 1
 Spaced, you are not being "pushed" anything. This is a MTB forum, and new products are released each year. MTB forums report on new products. Its really that simple. If you don't want to see new products being previewed or reviewed, then don't frequent an advertising driven format.

I have been riding 2 wheeled machines (BMX, MX, enduro, and MTBs) for 37 years, and am not into gimmicks. I have seen numerous "new" products in several sports. Some are really good, such as hydraulic discs, air sprung suspension for trail bikes, carbon fibre, and wider rims. 650b will likely be one of the game changing developments right up there with suspension, and disc brakes.
  • - 3
 deeeight: solve private issues through private messages in the future... or at least limit yourself to a negprop if you can't help yourself
  • - 3
 Willie1 - eee if we were not pushed to anything, the branch of science called "marketing" would not exist. Unless off course you are an undeluded individual of Alan Watts caliber. If you can please elaborate on why 650B will be a game changer, I would appreciate that. I am particularly interested who's game will be changed, will it be in an objective or subjective way, and do they pay for it?
  • + 0
 Waki, people choose to be "pushed" as you refer to it since we are in a media driven society. We need to read between the lines, and a bit of skepticism is healthy.

When I bit the bullet and rode my first road bike, not an MTB with slick tires, I had a revelation. It was so much more efficient and fluid on road that the ride became about enjoying the ride rather than fighting the bike. This is the best way I can describe my first and subsequent rides on my 650b converted Mojo SL. The Mojo is a little steep in the front, and the 650b helped that feel a bit, but what was really noticed was the fluidity of the ride. In the slow technical areas, the feeling of "stalling out" was greatly reduced. Momentum was maintained better. I could maybe feel a slight decrease in nimbleness, but I really had to think about it to feel any difference. I had a really nice set of carbon 26" wheels on the Mojo, and didn't feel like I lost anything when trying the more budget minded 650b wheelset. The extra rotational weight was offset with the decreased rolling resistance. I really feel that once people try 650b for the technical riding, they will be sold. I had nothing to prove with my trial. I spent a couple hundred on rims and tires, had hubs and spokes kicking around. I was so impressed I bought a set of carbon 650b rims, and can't imagine using 26" for anything other that DJ or BMX anymore ( I am 6'2", 265lbs.) I would change my DH to 650 b in a heartbeat if I used it more than I currently do, since our local lift assist area shut down.
  • + 0
 My take on it is: 26" will be pushed out if the industry wishes to do so. They have the power to do it, it works this way (example): no matter how much Hope or CK does their best with dealing with axle standards, if Sram, Shimano, Trek, Spec, Giant, Scott will decide to stop making 20 and 12mm axles people will follow, just as smaller companies relying on trends. If mentioned companies say: no more 26" for higher class bikes, then yes, in a matter of max 3 years it's out, only hipsters and romantics will miss that. Rim and tyre makers have nothing to say, they will probably even feel relief...

I feel it is bike-shop owners who loose most due to those fireworks, needing to stock certain things of various sizes. Client looses as well as he has to wait for ordered spare parts as shops did not wanted to stock so much of different kinds. Off course you can just buy new in a cheap On-Line shop everytime something brakes.

Performance wise: I would care if I raced as only the clock can tell the truth in such arrangement. At the same time Nino Shurter winning against a 29er on 650B means even that is uncertain. I focus on subjective feeling, I dont really care what clock tells me about how fast I ride. I have a 26" nomad to focus on fun and skill aspect of MTB to experience thrill and I ride it. Then I ride a 29er to cover largest possible distance in short time, to experience being in nature on a bike. In between... none of your business Big Grin
  • - 1
 Looking at the press releases for this year, I see the writing is on the wall for 26" bikes.Several manufacturers are dropping the 26" version of their bikes. I see aluminum hardtails disappearing as well. Carbon and steel are much better suited for hard tail frames. Ti is good too but cost prohibitive for most people. Carbon will eventually replace aluminum for rims, but this is a few years off until the cost and volume ratio changes.

I remember the olden days where people felt discs were a fad, and suspension was a fad, then aluminum was a fad. The retrogrouches will always be there. It isn't a conspiracy, manufacturers can't re-release the same product years in a row and expect people to buy them. They have to change things. Some changes are gimmicks, some are genuine progressions.
  • + 0
 Yes it's an arms race so to speak... there is more of fight between big parties where nobody wants to stay behind, and for the content of our accounts rather than actual quest for improvement and that is always my ultimate point. And changing a size of something by a little is a very cheap yet effective weapon. Whatever they do, there can be always an argument posted: it is stiffer than 9mm and lighter than 20mm, it is faster than 26" but more nimble than 29" - and you can't argue with that, while it can go on and on and on... stiffer than 15mm lighter than 20mm.

What's wrong with that? nothing, really nothing... but... it's greed and waste, that's all - nothing else, who cares? wait let me look outside the window - oh I think nobody. Am I harming anyone? What's the point of my writing? dunno really, I thought it's valuable. But everything is so subjective...
  • + 1
 Willie don't pretend you don't understand what I've said pushed as in a big marketing and Pr push aimed at convincing me to switch to 650B. I know what it looks I do the same in my non biking industry. Also yes I am being pushed when people claim 650b will be 3/4 of the market soon and 26 for many bikes will become obsolete.

Also riding for a longer time doesn't make you more resitant to marketing.
  • - 1
 The inexperienced always claim experience doesn't matter... until they have the experience and get it.

No one needs to convince pinkbike kids that 650b is better. The rest of the world is accepting it regardless of the whining about conspiracies and lies here. This is the only site I've visited that bashes the concept. The majority of manufacturers are behind the switch, the market is there, and it will be over soon. If you want to ride AM bikes, you will be left with custom frame builders, or box store bikes in a few years.

After one ride, you definitely feel the difference between the wheel sizes. Its not a gimmick. Is it worth a whole new bike earlier than you would normally replace yours? Only you can answer that.

Where I see the "push" is the neg propping of anyone who posts an opinion or experience against the status quo. That is the big push here. We all do it in our own way. It isn't something that happens to us, but that we do to each other. We push to evolve or push to conform. Pick your poison.
  • + 2
 @Willie... several manufacturers were already moving to drop 26ers in favour of 29ers across most of their lines... Specialized for sure and they've sold drunk the 29er kool-aid as to come out very ANTI-650B (they were late to admit they needed 29s and now they're gonna be late to admit they need to have 650B bikes also), but Rocky Mountain also as an example of a medium size brand. Indeed for 2013, they have only THREE 26" XC hardtail models left, and nothing higher than a Fusion. This from a brand that five years ago had a single 29er XC hardtail model and now almost every one of them are 29ers. Just watch though, the three that are still 26ers will probably become 650B hardtail offerings in the next year or two.
  • - 3
 Willie - I would like to point to your experience that the status quo is: harder, better, faster, stronger. The progress is all good, those who oppose should stay behind. Basing on what you are writing: you and deeeight are worshiping it. 26 is stylish, 29 is fast, 650b is as the letter says: beige. If you would be more observant on current trends outside MTB (are you able to zoom out mr overgrown left side of the brain engineer?) then you would notice hipsters, new wave of hippies, ever present love for retro design, eco foods, hybrid cars, fixies. People younger than you have a bit enough even if those of your like strap them to dumbing phones. Stupidly or not they would gladly dream to live the lives of your parents rather than yours. For long coming years you will be on the bad guys team.

Get off your heights, might work for kids... Two biggest nerds of Canada vs two biggest nerds of Poland Fight for props.
  • + 0
 Willie it's a cocky thing to say and it's kinda offending that you assume I am inexperienced. You let your ego blind you. You think that because you ride for a long time you can't be wrong. Somehow in my field of work it's knowledge and skills that matters and the old thinking of experience over knowledge is no longer accepted. It works for the better I must say.

Also could you point out what lies are spreading here? I'm really curious about your conspiracy theory. Also the rest of the world is accepting 650B? Most of the riders I know are either against it or sceptical. There is a group that would like to try it but accepting it? Don't be silly.

Also as for the ride - I claim it may be a gimmick NOT because you don't feel the difference. You claiming that only shows you didn't read or understand my posts. I'm claiming that outside of the obvious benefits the idea may have some drawbacks. Since EVERY idea has some. We need to carefully weight if they are worth it or is the initial wow factor blinding a rational thought. So please stop drinking the 650b coolaid. The big push is people like you who give me no choice to try and decide. Instead you proclaim 26'' is dead and I will have to buy custom parts. Because it is better and I have to believe you.

Instead of attacking people and feeding your long experience high horse give people a chance to try the new technology. If they really like it than then push it. If not than add it to URT, 100mm BB, 165mm rear ends and a few other even bigger ideas parts of the industry thought we needed.
  • - 1
 Also sorry but if you base your opinion on a short period of riding filled with gear problems? Be serious.
  • - 2
 Spaced, take a look at the novice to expert development model. When we have knowledge, we can be competent, with experience the knowledge application and differentiating subtle variables becomes much more fluid and intuitive. It is generally accepted that it takes 10 years in a given field to be an expert. So yes, experience is important, and it is not an opinion. Considering a male's brain isn't even fully developed until 25 years of age, the age of expertise is typically 35+ years old. I assume you already know that because knowledge and skills are what's important, and you would have the knowledge of the importance of experience.

Re: lies and conspiracies: I am referring to the numerous posts that people claim they are being lied to regarding the benefits of 650b, and the manufacturers are going to screw them out of 26" components.

The cost benefit is always a balance. If you thing 29" inch is 95% about rolling, 26: is 50%, 24" is 35%, 20" is 25%, then 650b is about 65-70%. For most trail situations and even DH, having that 65-70% efficiency is a huge benefit with a minimal cost in maneuverability. Very few conditions require the added maneuverability that a 26" wheel (50/50 balance, compared to 65/35 balance) results in. In BMX racing, with the groomed tracks, or at the skate park, the priority on maneuverability is seen in the equipment choice. 650b is simply a better balance in the majority of conditions, where 29" has a much greater tadeoff.
  • + 1
 Can I just say, that all of you, are fucking ridiculous.
  • + 0
 Willie1 - basing on your first paragraph it seems to me, that we are one of last chances in your life so that you can wake up and rethink shit. Otherwise you are sentenced to become a beigist.
  • + 2
 The 10 years idea is silly. It's hours spent at something, not years. Also riding bikes doesn't make you an expert on bike trends and technology. I ride cars and I'm no expert on their tech, market or sales. You use a common saying and spin it around to sound smart.

Also the fact that you have 10+ years of experience (funny thing is , so do I) doesn't make you an expert. You MAY be one. If you are an exprert why your profile has no riding photos? Post at least one to prove you at least ride your bikes.

As for screwing out of components - YOU HAVE SAID IT YOURSELF that the 26 components and bikes will be hard to get soon. Stop contradicting yourself. Not to mention no one here claimed they were lied about the benefits of 650b only that they are POSSIBLY hyped up marketing speak that forgets to shown the downsides.


As for your calculation. HAHA! That;s my comment. You have guessed some numbers. They are not real numbers. It may as well be 50 to 55%. Go to a track with 2 bikes. Measure times and even that won't be objective since the components and geo will be different but that's defo better than you making up data to suit your argument.

In the end I didn't suspect it will only take 1 year to create militant 650B fans like they have with 29'' that could shame even the best of creationists.
  • + 0
 Willie, you need to quit right now because you're chatting complete sh!t. Pulling numbers out of the air doesn't help. Spaced, just leave it mate, it's not even worth it, the guy is clearly an argumentative moron.
  • - 1
 Spaced, in 10 years you might get it LOL!!! I present well established information, and I get opinion back. BTW, the 10 years idea is also based on 40+ hours per week, so it is time put in. You can take whole courses on the subject, and many books are written on this as well. This is a pretty robust idea.

The %s are for comparison, not based on science. I thought that was obvious. Now the real question: Spaced, do you own a 650b bicycle? How much time have you put in on one? It seems to me most posts are based on NEVER having ridden one.

Waki, I am disappointed. Your response is such a poor generalization. Liking a specific wheel size does not transfer to a life perspective. When you actually are "forced" to own a 650b in a few years, you will look back on this and think to yourself "what was all the fuss about?"
  • + 0
 It is dedicated traning, not time spent. Also there are many pro racers with way more experience than you who have no idea about gear. So your argument is invalid. Though I didn't know you have been riding 40h/week. You must be a fitness god. After 3 weeks of 40h+ riding/ week I need a rest. You are some tough MOFO.

Though I like the idea that when you hit 35, have 10+ years of riding and you are still a virgin a magical owl comes from hogwart with your "BIKE EXPERT" diploma of excellence.

I'm not saying 650b is worse. I'm just saying untill we get some measurements or a lot of people get long riding hours on different bikes we can't be sure. You are biased so I don't trust your opinion.
  • + 1
 None of this is about riding time. Its about observing changes and progress. I have seen so many changes in the sports I have participated in, and in my job, where there is constant change, with new medications/treatments released daily. Reading between the lines and seeing the reality in the hype is a skill that is developed over time with experience. Understanding research design (I have taken full courses on interpreting and designing research) helps one sift throught the claims.Since you didn't say, I assume your real world experience with 650b is ZERO, so you are still posting on faith (much like creationism) and opinion rather than actually trying the product to verify if there are any truths to the claims (which there are, and have been verified by most who have tried the wheel size.)

BTW, I haven't neg propped you in this discussion at all, how about you?
  • + 0
 I did because you post drivel. I just love how full of youself you are. No matter what you say you will always find some wiggle room to call yourself an expert. First it's riding time, now it's observing changes and special change spotting courses ( I have done ZERO such courses yet I'm still the go to guy for research in my company. Though feel free and give jobs to coaches. Many of my friends are in that industry and they''ll gladly accept your cash).
Also I'm not posting on faith. It would be posting on faith If I claimed to have any opinion about the ride of 650b. The only thing I point out (except the fact that you are a better expert at everything than even Kim Jong il himself) is without a significant trial period and sample group singular opinions of hyped up internet "experts" mean shit (I bet there were no courses on statistics, theory of knowledge or the scientific method?).
650b is a nice idea but the whole "I have rode one bike for the short period of time so all 26ers will be obsolete tomorrah!" notion is really amusing. Though in the end I probably only talk to you to find out what else you can come up with to feed your high horse. It's quite entertaining I must say.
  • + 0
 I may be an ass for saying that but in your profile you claim you only crossed to mtb a couple of years ago so what's with the 10+ years of experience? Wink
  • + 1
 You seem to be getting angry and changing your story. I have said the same thing the whole time.

Re: experience: I rode bikes through childhood into my early/mid 20's.Raced MX for 12 or so years, then back to MTB and BMX. in the mid 2000s- 2006 or 2007? You are just spewing and aren't making sense. Reread my posts. I never once mentioned riding time. I talked about experience, skepticism, reading between the lines etc. I also talked about the 1st hand experience with the product in question and gave real world examples of the differences in ride.

I have been through 17. 18. 19, and 20" rear wheels in moto. I have seen 20, 21, and 23" front wheels. I have seen first hand the differences between drum and rim brakes and the differences hydro discs made. I have seen failed attempts at Fox air suspension in the late 70's early 80s. I have seen numerous rear and front suspension designs come and go. I have seen numerous frame materials come and go. In all the hype, everything is touted as the newest and the best, but only some of the designs have made sense. What MTBers don't get is they are 20 years behind the moto industry in development and are experimenting with designs that have been played with many times over (I.E. inverted forks, multi link suspension etc.) So yes, I do have some experience with sifting through engineering claims and reality. I have also made my own frames, and have completed numerous engine swaps, frame modifications, suspension mode etc. Every product has a claim, and we need to sift through them. I have reviewd hundreds if not thousands of research articles and applied the information to treatment and program planning. Sifting though hype is an area I have way more experience than the average cat. Just the way it is.

BTW, I am just an intermediate rider.
  • + 0
 Sorry man but if you read interviews with some of the top bike designers today (DW for example) they completely disagreee with your 20 years behind claim. I remember DW claiming biking is in some ways in front of moto (SOME WAYS!) and I've seen others suggesting that as well. The weight game has been the key factor here.

Also you being so negative about multi link suspension shows you lack basic understanding about the differences between moto and mtb. You don't understand that suspension in moto and dh has to perform differently. Sorry but that shows you do not only have no experience in the mtb world but also no knowledge. So please stop rambling. It is entertaining but it is plain wrong.

Also again I understand that your first hand experience is that you like 650b. But short experience from a single intermediate rider, especially one with so little knowledge about bikes is no proof to me that 26 wheels are obsolete. I will probably try a competent 650b bike, with good tirees (which for now are a problem) and then know something. Though for a short ride one can never know what's your own hype and what's good in the long term when the new part bling fades away. I remember being positive about many products just because I was rationalizing spending money like an idiot on another new thing.

Also if you talk about having more experience. For mtb - serious riding and racing I may be younger but I my e-penis may be bigger in that aspect.
  • + 0
 What is wrong with multi link suspension? I never said anything about it not being good. KTM is the only recent manufacturer to not use multi link suspension, and they use multi link on MX models now. It has been used in moto since the early 80's, but the 4-bar idea never caught on. Horst Lietner (sp?) tried to sell the Horst Link to Yamaha in 81 or 82, but they never bought it. I'm not sure when spesh started with Horst suspension, but I think it was early 90's- again 20 years later. I thought it was a good idea back then, and do now. I actually own a DW link bike (my favorite) and Horst link bikes (second favorite.) The VF4B isn't quite as good, but better than faux bar. Inverted forks have long been known to provide better tracking than conventional forks (1988-2003 MX development- 15 years before MTB), but the MTB manufacturers "pushed" the superiority of conventional forks to keep the cost down, and the kids bought that kool-aid. Inverted is starting to creep into MTB design. Electronic suspension was used in 1993 by Husqvarna. (see new developments in MTB above- 20 years later.) Air suspension was used in the late 70's in MX, but wasn't reliable enough (MTB about 15 years later.) Hybrid air/spring forks (AKA Marzocchi, current fox 40) used to be the norm in moto up until 1986, when the current cartridge design took over (similar to a manitou fork.) Suzuki used a floating shock in 1981- Trek in the 2000's, nearly 30 years later. I could go on, but you get the point.
  • - 3
 What is more advanced in MTB compared to moto? The only things I see are carbon,(cost prohibitive) tubeless, and 4-bar, which have all been tried in moto, but were never adopted.

You think I don't know much about bikes huh? I actually design and build my own frames. Yes from lengths of tubing, welded in my shop. I build my own wheels. I have never bought a complete bike (since I was a kid) and custom build everything I own. I raced DH, BMX, and have a cabin in the mountains that has more challenging terrain than almost any area I have ridden short of Whistler.

I forget what your point is. Oh yeah, 650b is being pushed on you.
  • - 4
 Neg propp but no response. Look who looks like a fool now, who has no knowledge LOL! Effing kids shooting their mouths off about things they don't even realize they don't know. Also, since when is a full season "a short period" or 5 years like deeeight.
  • + 4
 I neg propped you because I'm sick of getting updates on my dashboard from your stupid argument. And your ignorant and bigoted comments are self defeating and it's getting ridiculous. The "kids" these days (whatever that means), some of them know their stuff. Frankly everything you've said is opinionated conjecture at best. Give it a rest, you've fallen into every internet argument cliche, noone's buying it, and I'm sick of hearing about it.
  • + 4
 Willie is showing all the hallmarks of someone who is insecure about their viewpoint and just want to shout down others and throw out random claims of expertise (which are worth jack without proof). If someone criticises something I own that I actually know is good I don't even bother arguing because it's their loss. Something tells me Willie isn't exactly convinced about 650b himself and is militantly defending it to save face. Mate stfu, we're sick of it.

As for it being "pushed", if you're going to nitpick semantics then you're wasting everyone's time and missing the point.
  • + 4
 You have a cabin in the woods with challenging DH terrain to rival Whistler, plus a shop where you build all your own bikes, plus you "used to race" DH and BMX aye? Well I'm Willy Wonka and I build my DH rigs out of carbon chocolate and I would win worlds every year if I entered and my yard has an x-games sized ramp in it where I ride my solid gold skateboards. A quick look at your profile shows me two bikes at least that you didn't build, and absolutely nothing else.
It's all very well to have a point of view, but you have to back it up, and the way you're talking just stinks of BS.
If you want to be taken seriously by "the kids" (way to show your superior maturity btw) then start acting like a grown up and not a brat who can't stand someone with another view.
  • + 1
 LOL. Willie sorry but you are the least imformed person on PB. If you claim regular forks were pushed because they were cheaper you are as far from the truth as it is humanely possible. You have NO IDEA about bike tech or any tech for that matter. If inverted designs are more expensive please explain me why all the small companies used them? Oh wait, because a magnesium mold is more expensive than an alu tube. God I like your comments because I wonder what is the next idea you will push. Outside of the fact that you claim DH is behind moto because it didn't have the tech available in moto BEFORE THE SPORT WAS INVENTED. In that case moto is behind horse carriages. Horse carriages had wheels waaay before.


btw. I didn't response because I decided to go for a ride. I don't know how you get 40h/week of riding and still manage to come up with all that drivel. As for your frames. Welding frames and designing frames are 2 different skills. Any halfwit can weld (won't be good welds but will be weld). That's what people thought in the old days. All you needed was a welder. For some strange reason those 13lb frames still cracked. Guess why
  • + 0
 All the yung-uns are banding together again. Its too funny. I am puzzled to which comments are bigoted and uninformed. There has not been a single reply by any of you that is based in actual fact or engineering. Yes, I do have a cabin on the Alberta side of the rockies. I do have a frame building shop. Personal insults do not change reality, no matter how many you sling. They just decrease your credibility, because the show you've run out of real ideas to present, and are deflecting with attempts at an emotional reaction. I did race DH and raced BMX for many years. I had knee surgery a couple years ago, so I don't race anymore. I am not sure why this is in dispute, or why this seems unusual. Many cycling or moto enthusiasts would have a similar history. When someone has riddeen for over 30 years, it should be expected that there is a diversity of experience. I think this is related to my original posts.
  • + 1
 Regardless of which came first, DH is applying tech that was used 20 years ago. The fact the moto was using these technologies before DH was invented (not technically true- there was some DH in the late 60's, early 70's) only proved my point that these technologies have been around before, and I read about them, and even used a lot of them before they showed up on MTBs. There is no disputing that, yet the children continue with their tantrums. The Wheel is of course the precursor to all wheeled sports, but a wagon never had air suspenmsion AFAIK or used multi link suspension. Yor arguments are like claiming Moto is the inventor of the wheel. It simply isn't true, but has developed wheel technology that is specific to the application. Don't you see how silly your attempts at proving your points are. How my facts can be construed as ignorant and self defeatingt is puzzling. I spent a lot of time growing up learning from those who had experience and am fortunate to have had that experience.

I have not seen a single countrerargument that is based on a proven idea, and the kids continue pushing their innacurate fiction on other people. I feel it is important to correct the totally ignorant claims being put forth here. Ignorance must be challenged.
  • + 1
 Inverted forks are more expensive because they are less tolerant of the production line variabilities. They require tighter fittings, that require more expensive tooling and materials, or they bind and leak, which does not happen as easily with the conventional design. This is simply more expensive in manufacturing costs. Frames require a stronger HT for an inverted design as well, and the extra rigidity transfers higher stresses to the frame. There is actually a pretty robust engineering database on the real forces a suspension fork experiences, and the inverted design will track better at equivalent or lighter weights than a conventional design. Look it up if you like, or believe the "industry push." See I don't believe all the marketing crap. I have riddeen no less than 30 different forks in the past 10 years. How many have you?

Regarding the dash: you are on a public forum. suck it up. People disagree with you, so they post. Stop posting inaccurate information, and the dash will not light up anymore. Isn't it odd someone would use the neg prop feature for this reason.

I haven't felt a need to post pics of my bikes, other than the ones I put up for sale. If you look at the profile, you will see no pics other than for sale items.I just don't feel the need to show my stuff off.
  • + 1
 Willie I am an engineer. What I say are facts about engineering last time I checked them in an engineering book. Marketing blurbs are not fact. I work for marketing Wink

As for the knee surgery it's a nice excuse but unless you got a shitty one you should still be able to race. Friend ripped 2 ligaments with his knee cap. You just find nice injuries to come up with crazy stories about your 40h/week riding even while top riders in the world don't ride as much. You lie. Simple as that. There is no rider in the world who constantly puts 40h/week ride weeks.

As for mfg costs for inverted forks costs. You have no idea. You were never even close to production of anything more complicated than welding 2 tubes together. A magnesium casting mold is hundrets of thousands of dollars. The higher tolerance on a fully alu inverted fork will not even come close to that cost. Also inverted fork doesn't track better. It is more supple but it is less stiff than a regular fork of comparable weight. It's less of a difference when your fork weighs a lot like in moto but on a 3kg fork the difference is noticeable and the steering response is a problem. It's even noticeable with an unconventional axle manitou uses.

As for "I don't believe in marketing crap" I can assure you. You are probably one of my industries best customers. Ad guys love people who don't believe in marketing.


Though please continue posting. It's no longer about 650b. It's just entertainment.
  • + 1
 Re: the knee surgery: I am bone on bone in the right knee, and am trying to prevent the need for a total knee replacement. The meniscus was shattered, the patella is arthritic, and they thankfully removed the bone chip in the knee in the surgery, that happened in a moto accident in 1997.. Can you please show me where I refer to riding 40h/week? I have not ever posted such information. I was referring to knowledge development, and that number is well supported in the literature. Would you like me to reference it for you? You yourself noted riding does not have much to do with knowledge.

If you are an engineer. (and you may be, I have several relatives who are engineers, and to get a PEng is 8 years, so starting at 17, you could actually be there now. You would be on the new end of the scale in terms of experience- which was one of my earlier posts.)

I can see your lack of functional knowledge really clearly. You may be very bright, and be knowledgeable in the literature, but a 20 or 30 year veteran of engineering (not me) is not likely to ask you for advice. That goes back to the novice to expert model. You don't like it, but you haven't actually presented any engineering knowledge. Please provide the references to your sources. I am very curious.

You are sure I am a marketer's dream? How do you know what I purchase? Isn't that just another hurled insult?
  • + 1
 Do you have a Dorado? I have owned four of them. I sold 2 on pinkbike, have one on my current DH, and sold the other to my brother. Check my history if you need proof. Please review the engineering literature from the late 80's through the mid 90s regarding fork design. You should have access to this. Any engineer knows the greatest flex happens at the crown, where inverted is significantly stiffer. The arch bandaid is just marketing. Torisonal stiffness claims are quite irrelevant due to the actual traction generated by the tire. The tire loses grip significantly before the fork twists. Its not rocket science, but it is science. Look it up. I hope you do.It is well researched, published and documented. Provide a lit review that shows me to be wrong if you can. I know you can't, because I have read this literature years ago.
  • + 1
 This is sort of like teasing the delayed kid at school, who doesn't understand he's being teased. This doesn't feel right. I'm out, unless someone posts engineering articles instead of opinion and insults.
  • + 1
 "BTW, the 10 years idea is also based on 40+ hours per week, so it is time put in" - That's about your riding experience.

As for enginering articles and school - you first. You started posting silly enginering ideas that don't exist on this world based on your made up credentials and no real knowledge. I just pointed out the obvious.

As for a marketers dream - I know because I work in marketing. Everyone who claims is resistant to marketing is just fooling themself. If you value experience that much ask a marketing guy with 30 years experience if he is resitant to marketing. I'm yet to meet one to say yes.
  • + 1
 So you are an engineer who works in marketing, and have first hand knowledge of magnesium casting? Where the hell do you work? I assume you are not a PEng based on your response. Accomplishing that in mid 20's is unusual. Typically it is late 20's or early 30s. You don't have access to engineering articles do you?

Based on your description of marketing, you are correct. Have you ever watched Derren Brown influence ad execs? Its fascinating. We are all susceptible. We can thin critically though. Take 2 identical bikes side bt side. Push down and turn the bar. One with inverted and one with a conventional fork as you roll foreward. The inverted fork will follow the ground better with less deflection from your line. Ihe conventional fork will have more flex at the crown, and feel less secure in tracking. This is measureable. When you brace the front wheel, you can force the twist more excessively in an inverted design, but that fklex only happens way beyond the point the rider would ever encounter in natural conditions, as the brace will reduce the flex that happens AFTER the crown has reached its max flex point (you would likely be well past crashing with that type of load as your tire could never have that much traction.. The reason MTB riders believe in conventional forks is the marketing effect that you described. They were told it and believed it. and therefore feel it. You can test this if you like. Its simple, and scientifically valid.

"Time put in" is in relation to any area of development. I never meant it specifically about riding.

Doesn't change then engineering of the fork. When riders were given the opportunity to ride whatever fork they wanted in the late 80's, it was nearly unanimous that the inverted fork was chosen, based on rider feel, and the stopwatch. I seem to remember only 2 ridetrs in that time period who preferred conventional forks.
  • + 3
 Can this dick measuring contest end now? You're both acting ri-god damn-diculous over nothing.

Or are you two a*sholes going to keep cluttering up my dash. Does anyone know a way to unsubscribe from updates for certain threads? Or can we summon a staff member to put an end to this?
  • + 2
 @ Cyrix. Sorry man. It was fun while it lasted but if it bothers you I'm out.
[Reply]
  • + 11
 They are all great ideas I hope come to pass, but wishing for component standards for any bike genre is a pipe dream in this constantly evolving industry. What I ready want for this year is to do more long rides, out all day and completely spent at the end. Cheers
  • + 1
 standards are bad for business. not going to happen.
[Reply]
  • + 14
 No electronics on MTB please...... Keep it raw, no gay shit.... skills comes first.
[Reply]
  • + 8
 You know what RC, calling people out like that "....must add a reason...." how about BS. That I want to ride period is good enough reason and the only reason there is whether I like 26, 27, or 29 inch tires...."but the fact that you need a reason at all is passive acceptance that to some degree you have chosen a less-efficient means to ride a bike on the dirt." WOW! BS again and shame on you RC, you have been around long enough to know thats as clear a case of BS as it comes.

Hey RC here are my reasons for not riding a 650B or 29r regardless of whatever scientific proof has been demonstrated:
1) Don't have the money to switch over to another standard I don't want
2) I like inefficient small wheels that have difficulty rolling over obstacles so I ride 24" wheels not 26"
3) You suggested it and therefore I will not partake - simple as that.

How about this, I think Pink Bike must give a reason for RC posting his crap on Pink Bike in the future or Pink Bike must passively accept to some degree that they have chosen a less-efficient means to put more BS out on the internet then we need.

RC had lots of respect for your past designs and bikes. Loved Mantis, loved the influence you had on Nishiki. Loved alot of what you did at MBA but man I am calling you on this one.

Bring on the ban stick.
  • + 3
 Well said mojo! I'm with you with reason No. 3
  • - 1
 That was awesome mojojojoaf! You may have a future in this business.
[Reply]
  • + 8
 I don't care about the new sizes. I want support for the stuff I already own. Had to wait 6 weeks for a reverb button this summer, 3 weeks for rear axle and now till febuary for a bling ring and chain guide. Bike industry needs to support the stuff out there and push forward.
[Reply]
  • + 8
 After forgetting to mention how great 650b was in 2012 I guess PB is going to get in line with the rest of the bike media and talk about how great it is.

How about instead of putting dropper posts on DH bikes we put DH bikes on steep, technical, exciting tracks that don't require the riders to get their XC pedal on.

Honestly, you know what mountain biking needs in 2013? More of that skateboarder f*#k you attitude. If you step back, there is so much lame stuff about mountain biking. Dudes in spandex yelling strava. Everyone parroting the industries press releases on the latest tech, people complaining about that tech being forced on us then going and buying it anyway so they can be the first person to show it off at the trail head. (why yes, that is a 650b on top of my Lexus RX, and yes I am awesome!) The fact people aren't content with simply "riding your bike in the woods" and trying to create a whole lame "enduro" culture.

Could you imagine what skateboarders would do if RC tried to tell them all to practice kickflips in front of a fan and ride trucks wider by 27mm because they are more stable? And told them all that if you ride some kind of trucks have to justify your decision because it's 12% less efficient? I know at the end of the day it's all about the almighty buck, but there has to be a better way to sell our souls without looking like d-bags.
  • + 1
 Hahaha actually RC would be using the ABEC ratings to justify why a bearing type produces 50% more rotational BS and when combined with a 27mm wider truck it actually creates a worm hole up his yazoo into the colorful world of Oz.

Bring on the ban stick.
[Reply]
  • + 10
 RC, I like 26" wheels. i don't mind or care that you like 29, but please stop trying to sell me sh*t i don't want. It's getting old.
  • + 1
 I've always wondered how much does RC get paid to write his “reviews” and say good things about certain products or trends. His opinions are, most of the time, one-sided and very partial based on how much he gets paid and his riding skills. A dropper post for DH? Seriously? We all have to add a reason to ride on 26-inch wheels?

Hey RC, what’s your reason to like 29ers so much? How much do you get paid to say that crap?
[Reply]
  • + 8
 Hey RC,

That first paragraph in your bit about the inevitability of 650's is pure blather!

"From this point onward, those who choose to ride a 26-inch-wheel bike must add a reason. It can be as simple as liking 26-inch wheels better - and I am happy with that - but the fact that you need a reason at all is passive acceptance that to some degree you have chosen a less-efficient means to ride a bike on the dirt. "

That's utter BS!!!!

Why is it that none of the people pushing 29's never talk about un-sprung weight? And never mind the additional mass needed to make a hoop that's 3" larger as strong as the smaller.
Simple fact: 29's are good if you are dirt roadie where suspension performance isn't as important as Enduro or DH.

Therefore, BS like the above quoted is just wrong and misleading. But I suppose it's OK to say that when a large portion of readers are ignorant and just want the coolest new shiny stuff that the mags say they need to buy to get girls and go fast.
  • + 1
 @BDKR You know sh..t about riding other rim sizes then 26's. Go ride 29er, or 27.5 and if you don't like quit riding it. Ride your friging 26 which I love to ride for down hill, but this is not only riding most people do. Trail riding is what most people do and they choose what is best for THEM.
  • + 1
 Dude! Yours is an emotional response that took things personally rather then seeing what I was getting at.

Fact 1) While I don't own any 29's, I've ridden a few. Guess what, they are great for trail riding. I'll never deny that.

Fact 2) I actually wouldn't mind a 29 with more travel for more aggressive trail riding. There are a couple out there that are pretty nice as a matter of fact.

But in spite of the above data points or your response, there is the science of the matter. The points I mentioned in particular are related to suspension performance (un-sprung weight) and strength of the wheel (You won't be able to make the wheel light enough to overcome the increase un-sprung weight over a 26 and it remain strong).

Now if you come back with, or are even thinking something along the lines of, "those issues aren't as great on a trail bike", then you're on the right track as to understanding the issue I have with that post. It doesn't make any distinction! It simply implies that (ALL) of us not on 29's have some mental issue with accepting what he believes is some better performing standard as we shift into the mode of making excuses.

Suspension performance and strength are PARAMOUNT in Enduro and DH. A 29" wheel taxes those two areas of the equation considerably and when you get right down to, provides a solution that's not needed in DH while creating issues in other aspects of the bikes functioning.

But for trail stuff? But for XC stuff? I think it's just fine.

Summary! Does a 29" wheel work for everything? NO!!!! But to hear RC tell it, the answer is yes. So if it's yes, and considering how long 29's have been around, why have we not seen proof of this in the DJ and DH worlds?
[Reply]
  • + 11
 More Safety Wire tips and tricks - RC
  • + 1
 This is easily the funniest comment on this article!
[Reply]
  • + 8
 My prediction: The more i am told i need to ride bikes with larger wheels and shorter travel, the more I will enjoy ripping it up on my 26" Jedi with almost 8" of travel. * Fight the Power*
[Reply]
  • + 8
 i feel that a pro slopestyle rider investing in a wind machine, to be able to judge what riding in windy conditions is like, has the same merit of a solar powered tanning bed.
  • + 5
 A windsock on a pole at the event is more practical and cheaper...
  • + 1
 Good call. Wind socks on the big courses would be a useful improvement. The corporate flags and such that are usually around the courses are helpful, but they are not reliable indicators. The longer a rider is in the air, the greater the effects of the wind. Without question, pro slopestyle riders can judge wind. My suggestion relates to preparation. All action sports that become professional reach a point where talent and testicles are not enough to ensure success - and the addition of methodical preparation then becomes the next logical step. Maybe we are not there yet, but we will arrive shortly.
[Reply]
  • + 6
 In regards to the standardization of slopestyle courses is that really where we want contest course design to go?? Builders having to consult a "guide book" before building features. I agree with the bigger features there is more consequence to the riders but by creating rules on what you can and cannot put in a course / an acceptable and unacceptable jump angle would they not be limiting the creativity of the builders? and isn't that why we/they build anyways? to build a course we/they would want to ride (in this case probably> see others ride) Can you imagine an FMB "technical delegate"(jump checker) walking a course and saying " I'm sorry Mr. Kaye but, this jump is one degree off the FMB acceptable jump angle standard"
  • + 1
 "Free"ride? Not anymore.
[Reply]
  • + 6
 "The newness of 29ers has worn off"

Really, they've only been heavil marketed for maybe a fraction over a year. Says a lot about the MTB industry.
As for "650b is here to stay"... it's the consumer who decides what gets to stay around, not journalists or engineers
[Reply]
  • + 6
 For 2013, PLEASE BRING BACK SIMPLICITY. I think that sticking all of these unnecessarily complex electronic components, extra standards, on-the-trail adjustments, etc. on mountain bikes is stupid! I don't know if anybody else thinks like this, but I certainly don't find myself riding down a trail and thinking, "damn, I really wish my suspension was adjusting itself for the terrain right now!" or "is my bike letting me ride this section in the most efficient way possible?" or "oh, if I had an 11 speed drivetrain and slightly larger tires and a dropper post I would be soooooooo much better at this!" Rather, I am just living in the moment, not caring about efficiency or adjustments, just wanting to feel the trail and enjoy that rush that only mountain biking gives me.
I run all my bikes as simple as possible for this reason, with 9 gears out back, 1 in the front, and suspension that has all of its knobs adjustable from the fork and shock themselves, with as little suspension travel as is possible for what I'm riding. I do this not just to preserve the sheer simple fun of riding, but to make my bikes simple to service too! I mean, I rarely get to go get my bike serviced professionally (by a shop that understands the CURRENT standards, let alone the new ones) so I have to set them up with parts that I can take care of in my own shop, or out on the trails, without spending a fortune. I think that by adding all of these extra cables and electronics and standards bikers are really disadvantaging themselves, really overcomplicating servicing and RIDING their bikes just for some insignificant performance gains, which by the way don't necessarily increase the fun factor of riding proportionally (and are probably negated by the distractions of the extra adjustment switches).
  • + 3
 BTW SRAM, IF YOU NEED TO MAKE A WHOLE NEW HUB STANDARD TO FIT YOUR CASSETTE, ITS TOO MANY GEARS! JUST MAKE A WIDER RATIO 9/10SPD!

TL;DR - simplify MTB, its just as fun. Not a huge number of people really need all the fancy equipment, just nerds that think they need the adjustments and specialty parts to have fun.
  • + 2
 Well said. I only ever feel like my bike isn't good enough during the winter when i can't ride. Then the snow melts, the trails dry and i don't think about new stuff unless the old stuff breaks. Biking is fun. Don't screw it up.
[Reply]
  • + 5
 worried DVO will be expensive as hell but I like where they're going design wise, and I like the idea of a 2 way dropper as well, although I'd like to see more of them with the cable at the base (or rocky mountain please put stealth reverb routing on the slayer
  • + 2
 Lots of people will want it just for the amazing looks alone...if it looks anything like it does in that picture!

The DH fork market is sure getting competitive...I wonder if anyone of them will experiment with a little more travel up front to match up with bikes like tHe V 10?
  • + 1
 Supposedly the Emerald is to cost around what the boxx WC now does.
  • + 1
 Honestly, the people who would actually benefit from using a DVO Emerald... can afford it... and the only people complaining about the price will be the ones who live in the pipe dream that having that fork, which they can't afford, will suddenlly make them a WC competitive rider.
  • + 9
 deeight you've successfully trolled me out of the woods so here it is- people are going to want that DVO because its SWEET and because, to the connoissuer, s*** like Fox and RS is played out when it comes to custom builds. I dont even look at a boxxer like its cool anymore, because its not. its just a plastic-internals big-market fork that does a decent job of holding up the front end- but it isnt SWEET from a pro build point of view anymore. maybe youve forgotten what it is like to nerd out on a build. the custom nature of MTB is truly part of what makes it so much fun. Its yer baby! The people who buy the DVO are gonna get tons of props in the lift lines you just wait and see. KEEP MTB CUSTOM BABY
  • + 4
 I want the dvo because I'm tired of rebuilding my boxxer, and I sold my 40 because you can't even get replacement parts for it. Plus at 220 pounds, all stock tuning on forks is wrong for my weight. At least on the dvo I can change that! And easily too. Fox would tell me to get f****d
  • + 1
 tell me about the damping man, at 124 pounds everything feels insensitive, boxxer world cups have been brutal for me and 40s arent much better plus they're way too stiff torsionally to, I'm sticking to my 888 till I can find that emerald cheap somewhere, it may be stiff but at least its sensitive
  • + 2
 deeeight - some people just like expensive toys. It's not like there are 2 groups of riders PROS and people who should own crap because they are slower. Everyone benefits from better gear, even if only in the slightest. Still I understand the joy of pimping your bike out.
  • + 1
 Oh Boxxer WC's...how I hate thee! I've never ridden a fork that showed so little actual difference in spite of all the fiddling and adjusting I did. If I should get tired of my new White Brothers in the next couple of years, I'll buy a DVO. A company that's open about their design and open to helping people tweak it is a company that has the sports best interest at heart.
  • + 1
 Agreed, the boxxer WC isn't a terrible fork, but it certainly isn't plush.
  • + 1
 BDKR - my boxxer adjustments worked really well.
  • + 1
 spaced - I wish I could say the same. :-( Maybe mine was a bad unit, but just as Protour stated, it wasn't plush.
  • + 1
 Mine was rebuilt by sram holand before it was sent to me. Bought it used. Perfect fork. Changed to avy only because I was worried about the quality of internals and their long term durability
[Reply]
  • + 5
 Hey Mike,

I really don't consider a 5.5 inch - 6.5 inch AM bike short travel. It's a little confusing / misleading to just say everything short of 7" in short travel. Especially when the hard core dirt roadies wouldn't be caught dead (much less out of their lycra) on a six bike.

That said, you're right. My Khyber Elite was the best damn purchase I've ever made. I love my DH bike, but versatility is not in it's lexicon.
[Reply]
  • + 5
 Good God I hope RC is wrong about new standards... 20mm, One Point Five, 150mm and 83mm bbs already exist. They can be made perfectly light and strong, not that will ever stop designers and marketing types coming up with something else ninety percent stronger-er than the previous thing they didn't bother to engineer properly. 145mm axles? Seriously, what the hell?
  • - 1
 RC is an actual engineer though, who's owned his own brand, was one of the pioneers of full suspension bikes (before he became a magazine editor) and who's to design for other brands. 145mm axles already exist... tandems have had them for decades now and Doug Bradbury, a contemporary to RC used the same dropout spacing (with wider flanges) on his original Manitou full suspension bikes (and a 115mm spacing for the front hub) along with a wider BB shell, larger tubes, etc. Everything RC listed has been done before by others. But proprietary to one brand or one specialized market segment (how many tandem owners do you know?) isn't the same as being a new standard for multiple brands across a large market segment such as long travel 29ers.
  • + 3
 I agree Fix, "we'll need wider axles, and wider BBs", good news RC, the downhill guys got there first, and we've got these lovely, popular, standards you can use!
  • + 1
 To be honest, I really don't get why so many people have a such a downer on new standards. By this I mean what difference does it actually make to people? I have quite a few bikes, and they all have different sized components. However, if something breaks I just buy the right replacement for the job. So what if it is available in other sizes, or 'standards'? Surely it's simple - just don't buy that component that won't fit. Having new oojimebobs and thingymejobs released just shows that evolution (and revolution) is still occurring, and gives us riders the choice to ride exactly what we want... (including god forbid 29er's!)
  • + 3
 @Big Tim. I'm not anti-new standards in general (142x12 is the best thing in years).
I am anti-new standards that offer nothing the previous didn't already. All that means is that something comes onto the market that's works about as well as it did before, but can't be sold to 99% of customers for purely arbitrary reasons.

Think Giant 1.5 to 1.25 tapered forks and headsets...
  • - 2
 Well part of the problem is people today don't actually really understand a lot of the so-called standards as it is. 142mm rear axles for example... the actual hub dimensions didn't change at all. The flange spacing and such is identical to 135mm hubs. They just made the end cap parts of the axle assembly different to fit QR thru-axles into rear dual suspension frames in a more secure fashion than open dropouts allowed. The actual measurement of a 135mm spaced hub axle though, was already 146mm.

83mm and 100mm BB shells... ok 100 didn't really take hold in the DH world but its now the standard BB width in the fat/snow bike world. And fat bikes effectively have 29" (or larger) diameter tires. It would be simple to apply them to big travel 29er frames. The Surly Mr Whirly crankset does what richard is asking for... keeps the Q-factor low while spacing the chainline out to clear wide (in us snow biker cases, up to FOUR AND HALF INCHES) tires. Its only a matter of time before E.13/Hive and others start making cranks for fat bikes too like that, and that's with hubs which are 170mm dropout spaced.
  • - 2
 @Fix-the-spade...

Giant's Overdrive 2 headset standard does actually make structural sense though, just as their Overdrive 1 (1.5 to 1 1/8 taper) did. Because of Giant Bicycles... who innovated with headsets themselves several times over now we all take what exists for granted, forgetting who did it first.

44mm internal bearing cup headsets...aka ZeroStack... Giant was first.
1.5 to 1 1/8" taper steerer tubes.... Giant was first.
1.25 to 1 1/8" taper steerer tubes for road bikes... Giant was first.
And now 1.5 to 1.25" taper steerer tubes, again Giant is first. Its only a matter of a few years until more brands are using it.

I can name two headset/steerer tube standards we got that DIDN'T actually have a pressing structural related need that actually took hold for a number of years. The OnePointFive standard itself... invented by Manitou because of claimed steerer tube failures on single-crown forks... that started happening at the same time Answer-Manitou cut ties with Easton and no longer used superior Easton EA70 steerer tubes or stanchion tubes. Also happened at a time people had stopped paying attention to Answer-Manitou forks/products. That was history repeating itself from decades before when Gary Fisher developed the Evolution (1.25" diameter) size steerer and headset claiming that mountain bikers were getting so aggressive that the "Standard" 1" diameter steerer wasn't strong enough. That it happened after GF bicycles had a bunch of steerer tube failures due to outsourcing production to taiwan at a time when Taiwan wasn't known for quality work/materials... and that brands still using 1" steerer tubes sourced from japan or the USA were not experiencing... oh that had no real bearing on the need to "invent" something to get people to pay attention to his brand again. He'd been first to start a "mountain bike" company, but his brand was no longer the leader of the industry.
  • + 1
 Wow, struck a raw nerve haven't we?

142x12 is great because it standardised fit for axle-seats on the frame. 135x12mm frames are very hit and miss for having flat sides or indents, then the indents can cause problems with hub fits if they're present.
Moreover it's brought along standardised mech hangers as a side effect, between X-12 ans E-Thru I can stock two hangers that fit dozens of models from a wide range of manufacturers. It's wonderful to not be going through catalogues for the specific part number of that year's gear hanger.
[Reply]
  • + 6
 "RockShox's investment in *their* E:i system..." I suggest you look up who designed and owns the patents for the entire E:I system, you'll find it start with "L" and ends in "apierre".
  • + 1
 Ghost bikea are also working with the i:e shock option
  • + 1
 lapierre and ghost are the only ones that use the E:i system
  • + 1
 Lapierre, Ghost and Haibike have the E:I option available since they're all Accell Group companies, but the patents are owned by Lapierre as they developed the E:I system.
  • + 8
 I hope they filed US patents also... or Specialized will likely file something claiming they actually invented it...
  • + 0
 Lapierre owns the patents and they co-developed the E.i system with Ecole Centrale Lyon students. Lapierre partnered with Rockshox on the project to provide a reliable suspension. RockShox developed the Monarch Relay shock and its electronics, and will warrant and service everything from the damper to the end of its electronic plug. Like plasmatron says: Accell's Haibike, Ghost and Lapierre are the only brands which will feature the E.i system - initially, at least.
RC
[Reply]
  • + 6
 These are not predictions, this is all product release info from the end of Summer 2012. Some of it will be out by the end of 2013, some will not. That is my prediction.
[Reply]
  • + 8
 How about a reliable dropper post in 2013 too!!!
  • + 2
 Try the KS LEV
  • + 1
 or reverb!
  • + 2
 My wife is on her third reverb in 9 months, I'm still on mine first KSi950 in the same time.
  • + 1
 just gotta wipe the seal after every ride, works fine for me, bought my 2012 slayer (bought by the original owner in january) used with a reverb that has never been serviced and still on the same post
  • + 1
 Reverb going real well for me. Still it sucks when you get a bad run on a product.
  • + 1
 I been waiting on a back ordered unit for two months now. Good luck finding one.
[Reply]
  • + 3
 I agree with the shorter travel bikes being more versatile and capable. With the new suspension designs and improvements in the last few years I've come full circle. I started 5 years ago with an 140mm XC and gradually moved up in travel to a DH and now I've come back to a 160mm bike to do it all. My trails for the most part has not changed much. My motto is, get the right tools for the job. You wouldn't want to use a sledge hammer to hang a picture frame.
[Reply]
  • + 3
 The 29" wheel rolls better over bumps which is clearly what is at the core of mtb… What? Didn't we just here that we need shorter travel rigs because the bumps aren't that big? I'd like a 4x build for the FR trails and a 650b for the rooted rough stuff, but for the money 6" on a 26" wheel is the best of both worlds. More flickable but can soak up the rough stuff. A 650 short travel would be cool too, but i can't buy cheap used parts. A 29er would lose the flick and i'd need to find a new way to have fun.
[Reply]
  • + 3
 Not sure if I see a DH dropper post taking off with the masses. Its a cool idea, I just don't think many everyday downhillers would see enough of a need to spend the money on another expensive part for what is already pricey bike.
[Reply]
  • + 3
 I feel like it's a flashbike (flashback) to the '80s were everybody was trying different tricks with geometry and such to get MTBs to handle well. We had West Coast fireroad bikes and East Coast singletrack bikes. Bikes became well balanced and nimble and worked good everywhere so now lets change the game and start all over. Sounds like marketing to me, "Sell everybody a new bike". I'm going to keep riding my mid '90s HT and my turn of the century FS and let the dust settle. I'm too broke in this economy to restock my stable with $5000 bikes anyway.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 Bring me a gear box darn it!

To all those crying about more $$$, it's a profit driven industry. DUH of course there will be more money, things will continue to be priced to allow you to spend all of your disposable income on your hobby. Roll on.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 I don't understand how the battery operated suspension will work because it seems it is only reactive to the fork .... So when you see a big drop ahead how will it be able to get you set up right ? Hopefully there be a manual override to that
[Reply]
  • + 6
 I predict NukeProof sells way more bikes this year!
[Reply]
  • + 2
 How to brake dear derailleur hanger in one second and in one step:
1. Carry a spare t-shirt under rubber bands on the back of your backpack
2. Make the t-shirt fall on the rear tire and get into the drivetrain
3. Derailleur hanger snaps in one tiny second
That's when and only then I wanted a gearbox
[Reply]
  • + 2
 At the moment the wheel size debate is only of any use to those who are buying a new bike or those that have to have the latest product. To the average rider who owns a bike for a number of years the debate is pretty pointless. I own a 2012 scalp and a 2007 giant trance both are 26 inch wheels so unless you can fit the 27.5 wheels to my existing frames I really couldnt care less. If 27.5 is proven to be a better wheel on the world cup circuit this year it still will make no difference to me as I imagine to get the benefit of those bigger wheels you are going to need to be a pro level rider which I am not and I imagine a good 80% of the members of pinkbike and customers out there are not. I am all for progress but the 29er had just been released and no one seems to have made this work with a decent amount of travel yet and now we have 27.5. It all just seems to be a bit of a gimmick to me to con those who have money burning a hole in there pockets to buy a different bike because they may be a 10th of a second faster. Maybe I will be proven wrong if the 27.5 bikes wipe the floor with the 26ers on the wc circuit this year but I somehow doubt that will be the case, until we see some real gains from the new wheel sizes I think the 26inch wheel will still be the size to have.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 RC, I understand that new wheel sizes are here to stay. My question is this:

Do the benefits of increasing wheel size apply to full suspenison bikes?

It seems to me that the advantages of a 650B or a 29er are dependent on a hardtail set up. Once full suspenison is introduced, the "draw backs " of 26" wheel get minimized or eliminated altogether. And you're left with a fast rolling AND quick turning wheel that has a bigger contact patch and inherently stronger spokes. The last two sentences are based on a British magazine article ( MbUk, I think) that had an engineer weigh the pros AND cons of bigger wheel sizes.

Thoughts?
  • + 1
 Great observation. Suspension is a modifying element in for optimizing wheel diameter to get the best balance between roll-over and suspension action. Off-road racing cars, for example, went the huge wheel diameter route, but the un-sprung weight penalty killed the suspension's response time. Eventually, designers found a happy medium - light enough to keep the suspension active, with enough diameter and volume in the tires to optimize traction and roll-over performance. Dual-suspension automatically delivers big-hit performance, so the choice of wheel diameter hinges on other performance factors. We know 29ers have superior roll-over, but its wheel-weight goes through the roof when you add sturdy rims and tires in the 2.35 and above range in order to make a technically-capable bike. The roll-over may be good, but the mass of the wheels means that the suspension can't get the wheel stopped and started fast enough to respond to bumps, so overall performance suffers. Dropping down a size to something 'like' 650B drops up to one pound off the wheel, allows the use of a higher-volume tire with trail-optimized tread, and has less of an adverse effect on the suspension action. There's a lot more to the equation, but that should help explain the compromises that underscore hardtail vs rear suspension. RC.
[Reply]
  • + 3
 26" are my favorites and I dont see how a 29er or 650B would be better for dirt jumps and freeride bikes... The less rotating weight the better and not to mention its more solid.
[Reply]
  • + 5
 I predict RC will come up with even dumber thoughts and ideas than last year.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 Not a fan of electronics or carbon frames. I believe a well designed suspension system is key. Seeing the trend of making a 30lb mtb flex less makes me smile, regardless of wheel size. Larger fork tubes, tapered head tube, wider wheels, and through axles makes aggressive riding so rewarding.

Drive train, disk brake(maintenance, rotor rub, noise), and trail Advocacy is where i would like to see bike mfg's focus their funds.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 I think someone should tally up all of the comments here that agree with Levy and RC and those that don't; then make a new "2013 Predictions" based on what people actually think will/want to happen in MTB this year. I don't think these predictions really have much relevance to most people judging by what I have read of the comments.
  • + 1
 Prediction: Carbon will get cheaper, Hill will win one on Nukeproof, DH will get demonstration approval for the olympics.
[Reply]
  • + 4
 29er is so gay, you guys look like fools and ride like... well, girls. Seriously, what are you thinking?
[Reply]
  • + 1
 One thing im wondering about is. Does a 26" bike used by a short person behave like a 29er does for a tall person. And therefore by the same reasoning if tall people enjoy riding 26" bikes, should shorter people be riding 24" bikes to get the same effect. Its just a thought and I admit I could be way off the truth so hold off on the witch hunt.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 RC - my apologies if this has already been pointed out but your suggestion that SRAM respond to Saint with a dedicated DH group ... SRAM has XO DH rear der, XO DH single ring specific cranks and 4 piston brakes offerred at multiple levels ...correct ? Would that not be considered a DH specific group ?
  • - 1
 Yes, you can say that about XTR too. I think SRAM has an A** kicker DH group in the works and I'd like to see it this season.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 This forum is pure entertainment. Some useful info, some useless.

I love it when I don't have to pay anything to read stand up comedy.

5'5" and riding a medium Tallboy LTc. Interesting that it doesn't feel too big and too sluggish on flat paved bike path. Rolls over all the pebbles nicely even with 65psi tire pressure.

Sylvain
[Reply]
  • + 1
 SRAM hasn't put out a competitor to saint, because they're too busy telling dhers they need 9 oh wait 10, no that's not it 7 speed, or is it 11 speed drivetrains? SRAM we don't need more that 8 gears, get the 9 tooth cog/hub assembly out already.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 the downhill droper post is a great idea. it should work this way on all types of bikes am/xc what ever you have. if you are riding any bike in to a section where the seat height is a problem the last thing you wanna do is have to sit down first.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 You know another product that seems to never be mentioned is electronic shifting. I don't really get it. Shimano and Campagnolo have had electronic shifting for a few years now yet there never seems to be any development on the mountain bike end. I've witnessed first hand how crisp it is once it's set up. I know Fairwheels did a DA mod to make it work on a mountain bike but nobody seems to be developing this system even in prototypes. I just wonder why not? Is mountain biking too strenuous on a battery system? Load? Stress? It just boggles my mind that it's never mentioned in the least yet we want a reactive suspension system.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 On the reverse acting seat post for down hill why not create a negative spring chamber that sucks the post down, then a positive chamber that pops it up, go with a two position and activate each chamber with a front derailleur trigger or grip shifter. Of course execution is more difficult than concept, but concept really isn't that hard.
  • + 1
 Def sounds good , personally i wouldnt use it on a DH bike but my AM bike yes lol .. Its just awkward at times to push your seat down with your butt , when you can just have it drop .
  • + 0
 That would be perpetual motion. The system would need an energy source to either recharge one chamber or overcome the pressure to return it. You are right, the concept isn't that hard. I like the trigger shift idea - it wold look funny at first, to see a shifter on the left side of a Big Bike though.
  • + 1
 Agreed RC, @c25porter's idea is impossible. The only way to do it repetitively would be with an electric motor, linear actuator, controller, limit switches and a battery.

And you don't need a servo motor unless you are trying to control the drop accurately.
  • + 0
 That would work - simply too - power up and power down with just the two extremes as options. A racing post would need to fail/default in the dropped position to be practical though, so it the saddle wouldn't be at XC height when you hit that 30 foot hip into the roots as the course entered the forest. The return stroke back to the dropped position should be a gas or coil spring - like the up-stroke of a conventional dropper.
  • + 0
 And I quote "...so it the saddle wouldn't be at XC height when you hit that 30 foot hip into the roots as the course entered the forest..."

So, RC, when was the last time you hit a 30 foot hip into the roots on a DH race course? Or at any other race for that matter?
[Reply]
  • + 1
 This will be my 4th season on a 2009 Mt. Vision I bought as a last year's model in 2010.

5" of travel, 26" wheels, tubeless (NO Problems EVER!, thanks Stans,) very good build, very good geometry, marvelously functional rear suspension, Fox stuff that hasn't yet caused a lick of trouble...

Makes cycling seem like a pretty cheap hobby, right? I need a new lid this year, and may finally buy a dropper post - if any good ones come to market Wink Looks like a Reverb, maybe? A new SRAM front mech because the old xt finally started to rattle. _Maybe_ some XT brakes.

I cannot wait to run the WHEELS off of this thing. I'm in the weight room for 2 months preparing, getting the soap out of my shoulders from last years injury.

650B might replace 26" wheels... might. 29" wheels will not. My DD is a 29'er. There's no comparison for "fun-ness" with the Marin... or the other 26" bike I tried, a 2011/12 Giant Reign. So great.
  • + 1
 Your Designated Driver is a 29'er? bro that must be one uncomfortable ride home from the pub aye
[Reply]
  • + 5
 i thought both Joyride and Rampage Aired on Live Network?
  • + 2
 They both did. NBC aired both this season. I think he just missed that one.
  • + 0
 I did..... BUSTED! I watched it live. RC
[Reply]
  • + 5
 The Incredible Hulk uses that fork to eat his dinner.
[Reply]
  • + 3
 I honestly hope bikes aren't full of electronics in a couple years. that's not what riding is about
[Reply]
  • + 0
 650?, dh-dropper post, electronic tits and tats, short travel xc bikes, more components for 29ish, Sram unified Dh gruppo? Levy, you are peddling to the freeride and dh crowds according to your own polls...and this crowd buys what works and lasts or is cheap to replace and none of the costly imagineering that takes places for the spandex crowd.

We are now at 210mm front travel and 240mm rear travel and pb advocates short travel?

Hope DVO gets its tuneable fork out soon, with clamp crowns instead of collets and a simple to manage rebuild kit for owners. Love to own a smooth long travel fork with a real helper spring design.
[Reply]
  • + 4
 My prediction....I will get out and ride more. Big Grin
[Reply]
  • + 1
 I rode my Giant Reign with Conti Trail Kings, 26 x 2.4....measures pretty damn close to 27" and thus the easiest/cheapest to reap its benefits of 650b with your current setup.
[Reply]
  • + 0
 @ mikelevy. I 100% agree with the shorter travel bikes. I moved to BC last year to ride more DH and what I found was I did not need the big heavy 38lb DH bike nor did I want to hike its fast ass up the hill. This will be the first year in 10 years that I will not be riding a DH bike. A high end 6 inch bike is more than capable of handling most terrain in BC including the the whistler bike park. Bring on the short(er) travel evolution!
[Reply]
  • + 0
 Only thing i liked about this is the DVO fork and the DH dropper seatpost , that would be sweet if they came out with something like that, otherwise everything else is nonsense . People just need to shutup and ride, if you cant then look into a different sport .
  • + 2
 Ever ridden a 650B?
[Reply]
  • + 3
 More money wasted on crap we don't need in mtb
[Reply]
  • + 2
 The only place electronics are needed on bikes is the race course end of story
[Reply]
  • + 2
 My list: internal gearbox, more standard head angle sets and shock bushings, more service packs.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 I like my sports cars simple, do you think i want a rolls royce on the trails? There is a reason race cars are simple: performace is visceral. Robots get in the way of that.
[Reply]
  • + 3
 Rocky Mountain...why u no give away 650B ?
[Reply]
  • + 1
 my predictions for 2013... the same from last year ... but faster and stylish xD
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Electronic Suspension??? OHH Hell NO!
29ers? OHH HELLL NO!

27.5 ... hmmm maybe.
[Reply]
  • + 0
 Check out my new blog, Ive just started reviewing products, any advice would be much appreciated.

mtb4weekendwarrior.blogspot.co.uk

Thank you,

Jedd.
[Reply]
  • - 2
 I kind of moved along that electro stuff lately. I am extremely excited to see mountain bikes getting electro stuff, ABS, traction control, gen2 dropper posts, active suspension with no brake dive. The sport will just divide, as simple as that, into limited performance enhancement group and some DH formula 1. That would be really amazing to see.

On the flip side we will see way more injuries among racers and hopefully no fatalities. They go incredibly fast these days and they will go even faster thanks to equipment. You can get any speed you want thanks to whatever you have - but trees won't get softer. Unless we get completely man-made tracks on open fields, or at least Willingen which was so awesome isn't it?

Thumbs up or what?
[Reply]
  • + 1
 3" drop seatpost under 350 grams for 29er's. You dont need a 5 inch drop post on a 29er.
  • + 1
 Depends how tall you are. I'm 6'5" and 3" is too little travel.
  • + 1
 I think you are the exception Tim, not the norm. For my needs a light 3" post would be perfect.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 My question is...will DVO be available before the apocolypse? What good is DVO at 1200 degrees?
[Reply]
  • + 1
 When will they come out with a motor, oh wait, might as well start riding dirt bikes again.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 you must have a lot of friends at DVO....
[Reply]
  • + 1
 I thought of a co2 post last year, so should have got a patent
[Reply]
  • - 1
 Imagine a whole new big mountain contest series, it would be like what they did in where the trail ends but they'll be competing! I'd love to see that happen.
  • + 2
 Uhh, i think you may have missed the point of where the trail ends... like, completely..
  • + 2
 Okay I could have worded that better but what I mean is just the simple fact that they were riding big mountain spots all around the world. I'm not talking about why they did it it was just the first example i thought of regarding big mountain freeriding. Obviously the contests wouldn't be based on riding gnarly spots that have never been ridden before
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Make everything out of carbon and take all my money
[Reply]
  • + 1
 I want Hal 9000 on my bike.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 I predict mtb slopestyle will be in the X games
[Reply]
  • + 1
 I love reading essays.
[Reply]
  • + 5
 Money grab.. of course it's a money grab! Did you know that companies must remain profitable to stay in business? True story! Tax incentives for NPOs are great though... Did you also know that bike companies don't control your bank account? They can't steal money from your account and force you to buy 650b, dh dropper posts, and such nonsense. Also, true story!

I say bike companies should have stopped innovating with the Proflex! I HATE my sub 30, 150mm travel AM bike that I can ride on any trail! Gross!
  • + 0
 A friend of mine was complaining the other night that her $1100 26er XC hardtail weighs 35 pounds... meanwhile my $3k 29er full suspension is under 27 pounds. How dare I spend money and have a lighter/better bike. Of course her hardtail is more capable and has more features than the $1100 hardtails we were riding twenty years ago... but due to inflation something had to be sacrificed and that was weight.
[Reply]
  • + 0
 does anyone know of a dropper post for DH that is currently available?
[Reply]
  • + 0
 Alright! more rampage!!
[Reply]
  • - 1
 My prediction for 2013 stay away from the roads! RIP Burry Stander !
[Reply]
Below threshold threads are hidden

Post a Comment



Copyright © 2000 - 2014. Pinkbike.com. All rights reserved.
dv14 0.112935
Mobile Version of Website