2Stage Elite 9 (dual rear shock) bike test
Photos: Ryan Corbyn
www.ryancorbyn.com
Location: Kinver Edge
Words: Si Paton
![photo]()
New Zealander and design engineer Roland is the brains behind this design and the 2Stage twin air shock technology. Word is in the middle of the night he awoke, jumped out of bed and started fiddling with his sons Lego Technics set. Three years later and plenty of track side research and development and numerous trips back to the drawing board to create an active stable platform technology where the threshold was delivered by the rider input, rather than the course you were descending down.
![photo]()
A full and further five whole years later from that first prototype and the 2Stage team have two bikes in full production. The Elite 9 as featured here for Downhill and the Zed 8 for "Free Ride". All Mountaineers don't fret, there is a bike currently in development for you.
![photo]()
Were any of you riding around Europe in 2007? You might of bumped into their top New Zealand Pro Glenn Haden at the Megavalanche winning the Sprint DH race? Or did you see him win the Italian National Championship Series? Race proven? The facts are there, he is also current 2008 New Zealand Downhill National Champion.
Glenn Haden 2Stage Bikes in Action:
In summary:
Primarily you are looking for a frame-set that has all the right angles and dimensions for riding and racing Downhill on. Many a bike company can tick that box, I mean all you need is a set square, protractor and half an "O" Level in welding don't you?
![photo]()
Suspension set-up, that's the key isn't it to making sure, 100% your back tyre sticks to the floor like sh1t sticks to a blanket. More traction time means faster acceleration when you are stomping on those flat pedals, better handling in corners and smoothing out the lumps and bumps we encounter over those three minutes, 22 seconds.
![photo]()
Axle paths? The first axle path is almost vert, following small bumps. The second axle path moves rearward following the trajectory of those big square rocks you keep hitting.
There are plenty of great shock companies out there that for years have been delivering the above, Fox, RockShox, Marzocchi, Manitou, Millyard etc. Then if you are really fussy then getting them tuned up by a professional is your next advancement up the ladder.
![photo]()
All the above happened with single pivot bikes, was the next step linkages? Yes linkages! Lawhill worked and felt so nice, I loved my Schwinn Straight 8, then it was all about pedaling as well, VPP, DW Link and some others.
![photo]()
What is next? Well anybody remember Scott dabbling with two shocks on their bikes a decade ago? I am not even going to mention that huge 8ft long seat that bolted onto the top tube. I think they got that idea from Skyway's BMX bolt on Freestyle Platform. Heath Robinson to say the least.
![photo]()
Well let's go down this two shocks road, surely there is some mileage down there. Especially now we are all talking about Air Shocks and their coming of age. Can I just say now my 1996 Foes DH Mono came with a Fox Air Shock, OK it lasted about two minutes but Airs have been about for a long, long time.
![photo]()
Many still condemn air forks and shocks that deliver more than 6 inches of travel. Will that be different here?
As the 2Stage system shares its 9inches of travel between both shocks, the first stage (top shock) uses five inches of travel. The second stage (bottom shock) uses four inches of travel. Therefore sharing the work load nicely and keeping all you air shock doubters more than happy.
On a 2Stage the first shock works at low pressure which takes care of all the small fast bumps. The second shock kicks in at the end of the first shock's stroke and is set at a higher pressure – this takes care of the big stuff.
![photo]()
Floating brake arms in simple terms that I can understand: This uncouples the braking from the suspension, in many bikes this locks the suspension out and it feels like your riding down steps. You can now brake later, even in those braking bumps and save those fractions of seconds whilst keeping hold of your false teeth.
Glenn Haden confirms this suspension system works and I agree with him. The 2Stage story is not over yet though, more tricks up their sleeve! They have got the suspension dialed but what about your pedaling, you don't want this to behave like a pedalo on Benidorm beach do you? Let me introduce the "Idle Cog", not a new invention but certainly tried and tested as seen on the likes of Canfields, Balfa, Appalache and even Trek. What benefits does this Idle Cog give you then? This routes the chain between the two pivot points keeping the suspension active on small hits with zero pedal feedback. It also cleverly locks out the second stage shock during accelerating. Chain tension here provides that lockout function and limits the travel of the bike by half. The first stage shock is still active whilst you pedal, in fact the harder you pedal the firmer the pedaling platform is.
![photo]()
Pivot Points? With suspension bikes your pivots are usually the problem come maintenance time. How many pivots here? There are two main pivot points so not as complicated as it looks. The lower pivot is for those small hits and delivers a short chain stay, good for those tight spots such as Inners, Bringewood and Caersws. The top pivot point is for those big wallops, that happen deeper in the stroke meaning a longer wheelbase for stability at high speeds, Fort William, Sun Peaks and Praloup etc.
To wrap this up I've ridden and raced plenty of the top bikes out there, all with single shocks that worked brilliantly. This two shock system performed just as well as any of my previous test rigs and in many cases pedaled even better. My answer for Bob (Blockbusters) is two better than one? Yes, coupled with an idler cog, frame design, linkages, pedal factor and reliability I know 2Stage are onto a winner.
There will be a lot of doubters out there as I'm sure we will see in the posts below. That's what it's there for so go fill your boots and comment to your hearts content. It will be really interesting to see what you guys think.
In the UK, Team Fenwicks are a four man strong team and signed up to race the 2Stage Bikes under the direction of John Smith in 2009 so keep em peeled! 2Stage also run a team of young guns who race for them in their “2Stage Academy” at UK National level. 2009 will be a big year for 2Stage as they have registered as a trade team to race in UCI World Cups. “2Stage Factory” will be making an announcement about their 2009 team in the coming weeks.
UK Dealers:
With an increasing list of accredited dealers around the UK it’s pretty easy to find a 2Stage bike to demo. A list of 2Stage dealers is up on the 2Stage website. www.2stagebikes.com.
![photo]()
Stay Unclipped.
Si Paton.
www.Descent-Gear.com
Track side and Online.
www.ryancorbyn.com
Location: Kinver Edge
Words: Si Paton
Blue Skies!
New Zealander and design engineer Roland is the brains behind this design and the 2Stage twin air shock technology. Word is in the middle of the night he awoke, jumped out of bed and started fiddling with his sons Lego Technics set. Three years later and plenty of track side research and development and numerous trips back to the drawing board to create an active stable platform technology where the threshold was delivered by the rider input, rather than the course you were descending down.
Turning on a dime!
A full and further five whole years later from that first prototype and the 2Stage team have two bikes in full production. The Elite 9 as featured here for Downhill and the Zed 8 for "Free Ride". All Mountaineers don't fret, there is a bike currently in development for you.
Handling the steep and technical UK style.
Were any of you riding around Europe in 2007? You might of bumped into their top New Zealand Pro Glenn Haden at the Megavalanche winning the Sprint DH race? Or did you see him win the Italian National Championship Series? Race proven? The facts are there, he is also current 2008 New Zealand Downhill National Champion.
In summary:
Primarily you are looking for a frame-set that has all the right angles and dimensions for riding and racing Downhill on. Many a bike company can tick that box, I mean all you need is a set square, protractor and half an "O" Level in welding don't you?
Double Top Tube, think Torker, Quadangle, Turner and Q Bikes
Suspension set-up, that's the key isn't it to making sure, 100% your back tyre sticks to the floor like sh1t sticks to a blanket. More traction time means faster acceleration when you are stomping on those flat pedals, better handling in corners and smoothing out the lumps and bumps we encounter over those three minutes, 22 seconds.
Nice and clean rear dropouts.
Axle paths? The first axle path is almost vert, following small bumps. The second axle path moves rearward following the trajectory of those big square rocks you keep hitting.
There are plenty of great shock companies out there that for years have been delivering the above, Fox, RockShox, Marzocchi, Manitou, Millyard etc. Then if you are really fussy then getting them tuned up by a professional is your next advancement up the ladder.
More Air Time than Richard Branson.
All the above happened with single pivot bikes, was the next step linkages? Yes linkages! Lawhill worked and felt so nice, I loved my Schwinn Straight 8, then it was all about pedaling as well, VPP, DW Link and some others.
Bumper Cars. These screw nicely in to stop your upper fork legs and frame denting.
What is next? Well anybody remember Scott dabbling with two shocks on their bikes a decade ago? I am not even going to mention that huge 8ft long seat that bolted onto the top tube. I think they got that idea from Skyway's BMX bolt on Freestyle Platform. Heath Robinson to say the least.
See it doesn't always rain or snow here
Well let's go down this two shocks road, surely there is some mileage down there. Especially now we are all talking about Air Shocks and their coming of age. Can I just say now my 1996 Foes DH Mono came with a Fox Air Shock, OK it lasted about two minutes but Airs have been about for a long, long time.
Count them, one, two
Many still condemn air forks and shocks that deliver more than 6 inches of travel. Will that be different here?
As the 2Stage system shares its 9inches of travel between both shocks, the first stage (top shock) uses five inches of travel. The second stage (bottom shock) uses four inches of travel. Therefore sharing the work load nicely and keeping all you air shock doubters more than happy.
On a 2Stage the first shock works at low pressure which takes care of all the small fast bumps. The second shock kicks in at the end of the first shock's stroke and is set at a higher pressure – this takes care of the big stuff.
Floating Brake Arm, recommended with. Though it is easily taken off if you wish to use the regular mounting set up.
Floating brake arms in simple terms that I can understand: This uncouples the braking from the suspension, in many bikes this locks the suspension out and it feels like your riding down steps. You can now brake later, even in those braking bumps and save those fractions of seconds whilst keeping hold of your false teeth.
Glenn Haden confirms this suspension system works and I agree with him. The 2Stage story is not over yet though, more tricks up their sleeve! They have got the suspension dialed but what about your pedaling, you don't want this to behave like a pedalo on Benidorm beach do you? Let me introduce the "Idle Cog", not a new invention but certainly tried and tested as seen on the likes of Canfields, Balfa, Appalache and even Trek. What benefits does this Idle Cog give you then? This routes the chain between the two pivot points keeping the suspension active on small hits with zero pedal feedback. It also cleverly locks out the second stage shock during accelerating. Chain tension here provides that lockout function and limits the travel of the bike by half. The first stage shock is still active whilst you pedal, in fact the harder you pedal the firmer the pedaling platform is.
Did the chain stay on? Yes it did!
Pivot Points? With suspension bikes your pivots are usually the problem come maintenance time. How many pivots here? There are two main pivot points so not as complicated as it looks. The lower pivot is for those small hits and delivers a short chain stay, good for those tight spots such as Inners, Bringewood and Caersws. The top pivot point is for those big wallops, that happen deeper in the stroke meaning a longer wheelbase for stability at high speeds, Fort William, Sun Peaks and Praloup etc.
To wrap this up I've ridden and raced plenty of the top bikes out there, all with single shocks that worked brilliantly. This two shock system performed just as well as any of my previous test rigs and in many cases pedaled even better. My answer for Bob (Blockbusters) is two better than one? Yes, coupled with an idler cog, frame design, linkages, pedal factor and reliability I know 2Stage are onto a winner.
There will be a lot of doubters out there as I'm sure we will see in the posts below. That's what it's there for so go fill your boots and comment to your hearts content. It will be really interesting to see what you guys think.
In the UK, Team Fenwicks are a four man strong team and signed up to race the 2Stage Bikes under the direction of John Smith in 2009 so keep em peeled! 2Stage also run a team of young guns who race for them in their “2Stage Academy” at UK National level. 2009 will be a big year for 2Stage as they have registered as a trade team to race in UCI World Cups. “2Stage Factory” will be making an announcement about their 2009 team in the coming weeks.
UK Dealers:
With an increasing list of accredited dealers around the UK it’s pretty easy to find a 2Stage bike to demo. A list of 2Stage dealers is up on the 2Stage website. www.2stagebikes.com.
Point and click, every trip, the 2Stage puts you in control.
Stay Unclipped.
Si Paton.
www.Descent-Gear.com
Track side and Online.
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Hahah i love this quote!
i totally disagree with suicidedh - no disrespect intended. the apocalypse hasn't really changed much since it was developed. the whole reason the second shock was added was because bender was blowing through the travel so fast that a blow off shock was needed. there were many articles written about this very thing. 2stage is currently the only bike that i am aware of that uses both shocks in conjunction of one another for the entire usable travel, not as a blow off. it is two shocks working as one suspension unit, not two shocks performing separate jobs.
talhaslam, have you been eating retard sandwiches?
Air shocks are by far lighter than a coil shock, so having two is not much of a drawback
The reason for having two shocks is not for strength, or extra travel, It is there to help each pedal stroke you push to make you go further and faster (your suspension is no longer sucking up your pedal strokes) this is because of the separate shocks and their location/geometry, first one (on top) this one is for small bumps, single track, w/e (anything besides large drops, jumps etc..) so by having the first shock there it allows you to pedal hard, and have all your pedal power going to the rear wheel rather than being soaked up by your suspension like on a regular single shock bike where the travel is unrestricted as of to how far it compresses when you pedal. When you are pedaling, it dosent matter how hard you pedal because theforce your applying is not all going down on the bottom bracket, alot of it is in pulling the chain. So when you hit a big drop and you are not crankin on your cranks you land with all the weight resting on your bottom bracket. This is when the second shock comes into play, once you apply enough weight to the bottom bracket it transfers to the second stage where it uses the last 4 inches of it's suspension. Also the inverted axle plays a large role in the 1st. stage of compression when you are pedaling and rollin over small rocks, drops, mounds, jumps. And the path of travel your wheel takes with this vertical axle and double suspension helps your tire stay on the ground more, unlike on a single shock bike where the wheel takes the same path of travel throughout it's entire compression. As where with this shock the first stage soaks up the bumps and keeps your tire glued to the trail (keeping all your weight on it the entire time) unlike the single shock where it could pop up off the ground, or have less traction due to your body weight being somewhere else than the pedals (So when your entire body weight is resting on the pedals you have mximum traction).
The reason the 2 stage design stiffens when you pedal harder is because chain tension limits the activity of the suspension. This is something most designers try to avoid like the plague because limiting travel/activity reduces traction, and the accompanying pedal feedback can ruin drivetrains and cause further performance issues.
So anyway, bumps will feel bigger and rob more traction on a bike that stiffens while pedaling than they would on a fully active bike, that is just simple logic. Not trying to be a neg. nancy here, and I'm not knocking the entire 2 stage design, but after reading this article I know almost nothing more than I could've learned from looking at the pictures. mainly just non-credible and random opinions with plenty of misinformation.
the advantage of running two shocks is having two different rebound speeds, 1st stage is fast for small hi speed stuff and the 2nd stage is slow for big hits and g-outs, because they both rebound independently to each other you wont have it pack down or kick up.... well in theory??
As stupid as it sounds fair play to him, a lot of people want to roll down it but are too scared to lol
Back doesn't feel active under braking, and on rougher courses it is far from confidence inspiring. Mates selling his after a few months riding and buying a 2nd hand Demo!
On smoother, flowing tracks, feels fine, but too much adjusting required to find the right setup, especially when you need to change it for the next weekend, as we have yet to find a good neutral setting for the shocks to make it easier.
Very late post here but i was reading up on these and felt like posting...
Instead of spending all day on forums discussing why it won't work, just book a demo with one of the dealers listed on the 2Stage. I think your comments would be 100% more useful if you had actually ridden one.
Again, I'm not saying the bike doesn't ride well. I'm just pointing out some fairly obvious inconsistencies in the article. Almost every bike has some pedal feedback, and designs that noticeably stifffen (or lock-out) as you pedal will have more. Just a fact.
But I don't know if the desired effect can't be take with just one shock.
Cannondale Moto leave the shock linear until close the full travel, but I can't botoom out a simple Fox Float with 150 lb of pressure. It is just an example.
Other ask, why the main pivot is so high? That demanded an extra axle for the chain line.
Well, the bike is different. I'm tired of the same VPP, etc.
www.bikehq.co.nz/index.cfm/Home
It also looks like the rear end is sprung weight, not unsprung. Always a good thing, basically lightening up the bike. Wat is the leverage ratio on this bike? or dual leverage ratios? lol
www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9JdVQLT75I
I know you're not denouncing it, but the idea isn't to add a second shock because people are bored of just one... it's to add a second axle path, for two different levels of hits. People criticized adding rear suspension to a hard tail in the beginning as well, because what is an inch or two of crappy shock absorption going to do for your race time anyway? Well, it paved the way for what we have today.
http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/3050494/
one 450 for small bumps, and then a 600 for the big stuff...
w/e, it's a neat looking bike
Slackface-this is true, but if the second one is only for big hits then I fail to see how it's super beneficial to have a completely different axle path. I personally would rather ride something simpler, like the Foes DHS 2:1 Mono w/ dual rate Ti Spring.
Hell, even saying the full name of the bike makes it sound awesome.
scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/SpringsTwoSpringsinSeries.html
I have a hunch its just marketing nonsense.
The same may or may not apply to this particular design. The photos don't make it the easiest to see exactly how things function, but I think it would be very difficult to achieve a true "blow off" type system as many of you were talking about.
pedal induced lock-out can only happen if the suspension is affected by pedaling. and if that was a good thing this design wouldn't use an idler pulley to redirect the chain to the pivot area.
Hating on the idler is strange cause all DH bikes have a chain guide isn't this the same thing in reality?
So I don't understand how chain-tension partially locking-out this design is a good thing, because they've employed an idler cog to actually reduce the effects of chain-torque on the suspension.. I don't get it. Remember the stinky 9? That design, along with other high pivot and vpp designs today, was effected by chain torque and it wasn't a good thing. Chain-torque problems are the only reason why some designs, including this one, need and idler cog to pedal well.
I thought the explanation of the design was more anecdotal than factual, no offense but explaining a new suspension system shouldn't require reference to other bikes unless it's completely factual and accurate. Maybe with some visual aid, rather than just writing that he and his buddy like how it rides and have decided it's a winner because it has linkages and an idler cog to balance out the controversial air shocks.
In fact, the article states that one of the idler's functions in this frame design is locking-out the 2nd stage while pedaling, but removing the idler would result in way more chain tension for the upper pivot. moving the idler up towards the upper pivot should make it pedal more neutral in the 2nd stage.
I'm also wondering if someone can explain how pedaling harder in the "fully active" 1st phase of travel (with "zero pedal feedback") will provide a stiffer platform? If it's truly fully active, pedaling as hard as you want shouldn't effect the suspension at all. what the hell?
"...an idler pulley to redirect the chain to the pivot area." If you looked carefully, it doesn't do this. There is a low pivot near the BB and a high pivot at the top. The idler cog sits in the middle locking out ONE of the shocks which brings me onto my next point.
"...you would be losing traction because the suspension is less active" Well if you think you need 9" travel to keep traction, I want to know what you're pedalling over! The idler cog only locks out ONE of the shocks leaving you with half the travel to keep traction when pedalling - more than enough!
"...If it's truly fully active, pedaling as hard as you want shouldn't effect the suspension at all." OK if you want to be pedantic, its fully active all the time except when your pedalling when its 50% active"
"...controversial air shocks." Don't be so afraid of change. Yes its controversial but I've been riding the bike loads and haven't had any problems yet... Remeber its a 2:1 leverage ratio (same as Foes) so the shocks are put through much less force than usual.
losing traction is never more efficient, doesn't matter what spin you put on it. why have 9" if it isn't going to be a plush, efficient 9"?
pedantic? more like accurate. Fully active means NOT effected by pedaling. Fully active except for when you're pedaling? So is every other design out there, einstein. Some of us don't think it's cool when pedaling locks out 50% of the travel, call us crazy.
and the controversial air shocks comment was just sarcasm. I thought it was funny that it was such a focus in the article (rather than anything technical). Kind of a red herring fallacy, diverting attention from issues that actually require knowledgeable explanation.
Of course losing traction isn't more efficient, but pedal bob isn't efficient either. Unless youre pedalling over 9" high square edged rock slabs then you don't actually need 9" travel while you're pedalling, 4" is more than enough! Unless you regularly lose traction on every XC or 4X bike ever made?
Yes, its fully active except when you're pedalling. Its 50% active when you're pedalling, I've been over this more than enough times, its not a difficult concept.
You're hilarious yes.
All axle paths (other than bb concentric) require chain growth to cycle, and they have feedback as the chain tension varies. Especially with rearward axlepaths, the chain will be pulled tighter as the suspension cycles just as pulling the chain tighter (with pedaling) keeps it from cycling.
Again, not knocking the 2 stage, maybe it's a great design for DH but unfortunately it is bound to physical law like everything else. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, right?
It flex's alot less than a sunday if you grab the back wheel and yank it from side to side. ALso the rear end is super short so you wouldn't feel much flex even on the less beefy AM8.
As for all this chain feedback rubbish. You would have to be bunny-hopping whilst stationary in the highest gear known to man to even feel a hint of pedal feedback - WHY does it matter???