Hope Pro 2 EX5.1D Hoops Vs Hope Custom Wheel Build.
by Simon Paton
Nov 18, 2008
Source: Chris Oakley
There’s no denying that wheels are perhaps the most important component on any bike, they keep you rolling and take all the abuse that you hammer at them and any failure here can make for big crashes or a long walk home a real possibility.
There’s no denying that wheels are perhaps the most important component on any bike, they keep you rolling and take all the abuse that you hammer at them and any failure here can make for big crashes or a long walk home a real possibility.
This article has been written by Chris Oakley:
Chris is almost the typical All Mountain rider here in the U.K. We first met at Birmingham Wheels skate park in the late 80's up on the vert ramp where he would carve a mean frontside Smith grind. Mid 90's and we meet again on the start line at a Hawkstone Park for a Midlands XC race. He's raced DH and even threw in some MIC commentary.
Today he is now the proud father of two and has a beautiful wife, nice house, new van (for the bikes of course) and a top job in the automotive industry looking at quality control, Demming, Ishikawa Diagrams and so on.. (See I do listen).
He's got a disposable income, is now too old to Ollie a fire hydrant Natas Kaupas style yet not too old to be playing golf just yet. He's now got a new fire burning in his big belly and he's off out on the XC trails enjoying his life.
Therefore all of the above qualifies him nicely to write this article and a few more in the near future as he symboliZes what a All Mountain (AM) Rider is all about. Plus he knows 100 times more about the technical detail stuff than me.
Hope Pro 2 with DT EX5.1D Hoops Vs Hope Custom Wheel build.
The average punter is faced with two choices when lining up new hoops for their ride.
Firstly, you can buy a nice off the peg factory set with zero effort or you can look a little deeper and spec yourself a custom ride tailored directly to your needs and get them built by a wheel builder. (There is a 3rd option of building your own wheels but you will first need to grow a beard, get an obsessive memory for spoke lengths and be able to do quadratic equations in your sleep).
With this in mind here’s the low-down on the pros and cons of both approaches using 2 mid price “All mountain” wheel sets built around Hopes excellent Hope Pro 2 hubs…
Why Hope Pro 2’s?? In case you didn’t know Hope manufactures some of the finest mountain bike hubs on the planet. I have a friend who has a set of Hope XC hubs that are over 15yrs old, took a complete battering off road and still giving great service on the daily commute bike. If you’re a big guy like me then you’ll be hard on wheel components and I have lost count of the number of Shimano free hubs I have destroyed. I have never had any problems with Hope hubs. Add to that the fact that they are entirely home serviceable with sealed cartridge bearings and the excellent Hope after sales service and you’re on to a winner with these at the heart of your wheel set. The Hope Pro 2’s are light enough for XC and tough enough for what most people need. Add on to the fact that the front hub can be switched from QR to either 15mm or 20mm bolt through in minutes by means of adapters and circlips and you have a pretty future proof set up.
First up let’s take a look at “Hope Hoops” factory wheel set. These are available in two versions The XC (Using DT Swiss 4.1D rims) and the All Mountain using the DT Swiss 5.1D rims. They come ready built with DT black spokes and are built onto black Hope pro 2 hubs as standard. Included in the price are 20mm bolt thru adaptors, spare spokes and some green decals. The All Mountain version tested here have been bolted to my trusty Heckler for the last year and have been battered round the rocky trails of the Peak District, the mountains of Wales, midweek bashes at my local DH course and an extended weekend in the Alps. This included the 100km Passportes du Soleil event and sessions on Les Gets and Morzine DH courses. I am 105kg/231 lbs so you can say these wheels have seen some action and have stood up really well.
The rims are still straight and true and as expected not a single squeak out of the hubs. Free hub pick up is great but does have a very loud click whilst freewheeling, which you’ll either love or hate. I love it and frequently use a quick back pedal to warn walkers on the trail that I’m coming….(Yes it’s that loud!)
So full marks for the factory set? Well no, I have had a few issues with the rim choice that Hope has elected to use in these wheels. To say that some tire changes are tight is an understatement. I spent 45 minutes of sweating and swearing trying to get some dual ply High Rollers on to these rims. Getting them off again was worse still. I was praying not to puncture during the Passeportes event! The thought of removing and refitting tires at altitude filled me with dread. Also, whilst my rims stayed die straight and dent free, I have riding buddies who seemed to dent their DT Hoops very quickly and easily and have had theirs re-laced with Mavic rims. It seems that the DT alloy is just softer and deforms easier than Mavic. Not really good enough then, close but no cigar.
So now let’s look at the custom option. One of the reasons people opt for the factory option is that the quality of a wheel set is so much more than a sum of the parts. Any tin pot outfit can post “custom builds” on the internet for seemingly competitive prices but (and it’s a big but) the impact of the quality of the build cannot be underestimated. The process of taking relatively flexible and delicate parts and forming them in to a wheel set that will stand the test of time is a complex and studied art. Factory options take a good proportion of this gamble away. However, if you opt for a custom build then you need to find a good old fashioned trusted wheel builder. You can do this by using custom options from internet sellers (there are some excellent ones out there) but I personally like to look the guy who builds my wheels in the eye. Never has there been a better case for using your quality local bike shop.
The build pictured consists of a pair of Hope Pro 2’s in gold with 10mm bolt in option rear hub laced to Mavic 721’s with silver DT spokes. This set in question was expertly built by Tom at my local branch of Leisure lakes in Wolverhampton. Ordered on Monday morning and ready by Wednesday afternoon the turnaround considering the hubs were not in stock was very impressive and the advice and service offered was excellent. Big shout to Sandy and his team. Pricing is also competitive with the factory option and in this case a post shakedown tune up was included in the price. Unlike the factory option you do not get the adapters and spare spokes so make sure you specify clearly which hub options you want. (Adapters are available as an after market options).
First impressions of the wheel set are that they look really trick. One of the advantages of custom is that I was able to go for the gold hubs to match the link on my 08 SX trail. It would be nice if the 20mm adapters on the front hub had matched rather than plain old black but I guess you can’t have everything. Going custom also made the 10mm bolt in option a possibility. The Factory set is QR only. Stainless silver spokes may not be to everyone’s taste but I have broken enough black spokes to put me off them for life if given the choice. The 721 rims were a no brainer. Mavic have had a rim this shape in their range for years and it just plain works. It may not look the greatest thanks to the V brake ready rim shape but they are lighter and stronger than the disc only equivalent. I personally think the new decals add something to the mix but I guess it’s a matter of taste.
At just £4.99 the masher is well worth buying and don't forget to take out an additional 3 years warranty on it at just £49.99 per year.
I think the biggest advantage of the custom route is choice. You are not at the mercy of some brand managers idea of what your perfect set up should be. Want pink Camo Sun rims, you got it. Want gun smoke grey hubs, you got it.
The only thing left for these wheels is to be abused by my hefty frame; they will spend the next few months being swapped between the Heckler and the SX to see how they stand up. I can’t wait to see how they go. Watch this space for an update and if you see Paton on the trails before me, make sure you knock him off.
Chris Oakley.
Stay Unclipped.
Si Paton..
www.Descent-Gear.com
Royal Racing 2009 Gear Instock!
Chris is almost the typical All Mountain rider here in the U.K. We first met at Birmingham Wheels skate park in the late 80's up on the vert ramp where he would carve a mean frontside Smith grind. Mid 90's and we meet again on the start line at a Hawkstone Park for a Midlands XC race. He's raced DH and even threw in some MIC commentary.
Today he is now the proud father of two and has a beautiful wife, nice house, new van (for the bikes of course) and a top job in the automotive industry looking at quality control, Demming, Ishikawa Diagrams and so on.. (See I do listen).
He's got a disposable income, is now too old to Ollie a fire hydrant Natas Kaupas style yet not too old to be playing golf just yet. He's now got a new fire burning in his big belly and he's off out on the XC trails enjoying his life.
Therefore all of the above qualifies him nicely to write this article and a few more in the near future as he symboliZes what a All Mountain (AM) Rider is all about. Plus he knows 100 times more about the technical detail stuff than me.
Hope Pro 2 with DT EX5.1D Hoops Vs Hope Custom Wheel build.
The average punter is faced with two choices when lining up new hoops for their ride.
Firstly, you can buy a nice off the peg factory set with zero effort or you can look a little deeper and spec yourself a custom ride tailored directly to your needs and get them built by a wheel builder. (There is a 3rd option of building your own wheels but you will first need to grow a beard, get an obsessive memory for spoke lengths and be able to do quadratic equations in your sleep).
Hope Hoops Factory Wheelset
With this in mind here’s the low-down on the pros and cons of both approaches using 2 mid price “All mountain” wheel sets built around Hopes excellent Hope Pro 2 hubs…
Why Hope Pro 2’s?? In case you didn’t know Hope manufactures some of the finest mountain bike hubs on the planet. I have a friend who has a set of Hope XC hubs that are over 15yrs old, took a complete battering off road and still giving great service on the daily commute bike. If you’re a big guy like me then you’ll be hard on wheel components and I have lost count of the number of Shimano free hubs I have destroyed. I have never had any problems with Hope hubs. Add to that the fact that they are entirely home serviceable with sealed cartridge bearings and the excellent Hope after sales service and you’re on to a winner with these at the heart of your wheel set. The Hope Pro 2’s are light enough for XC and tough enough for what most people need. Add on to the fact that the front hub can be switched from QR to either 15mm or 20mm bolt through in minutes by means of adapters and circlips and you have a pretty future proof set up.
Two Hundred and Eighty Five Pounds a Pair
First up let’s take a look at “Hope Hoops” factory wheel set. These are available in two versions The XC (Using DT Swiss 4.1D rims) and the All Mountain using the DT Swiss 5.1D rims. They come ready built with DT black spokes and are built onto black Hope pro 2 hubs as standard. Included in the price are 20mm bolt thru adaptors, spare spokes and some green decals. The All Mountain version tested here have been bolted to my trusty Heckler for the last year and have been battered round the rocky trails of the Peak District, the mountains of Wales, midweek bashes at my local DH course and an extended weekend in the Alps. This included the 100km Passportes du Soleil event and sessions on Les Gets and Morzine DH courses. I am 105kg/231 lbs so you can say these wheels have seen some action and have stood up really well.
Cheese or Concrete, seems the jury is still out on the DT Swiss Case.
The rims are still straight and true and as expected not a single squeak out of the hubs. Free hub pick up is great but does have a very loud click whilst freewheeling, which you’ll either love or hate. I love it and frequently use a quick back pedal to warn walkers on the trail that I’m coming….(Yes it’s that loud!)
So full marks for the factory set? Well no, I have had a few issues with the rim choice that Hope has elected to use in these wheels. To say that some tire changes are tight is an understatement. I spent 45 minutes of sweating and swearing trying to get some dual ply High Rollers on to these rims. Getting them off again was worse still. I was praying not to puncture during the Passeportes event! The thought of removing and refitting tires at altitude filled me with dread. Also, whilst my rims stayed die straight and dent free, I have riding buddies who seemed to dent their DT Hoops very quickly and easily and have had theirs re-laced with Mavic rims. It seems that the DT alloy is just softer and deforms easier than Mavic. Not really good enough then, close but no cigar.
British is Best?
So now let’s look at the custom option. One of the reasons people opt for the factory option is that the quality of a wheel set is so much more than a sum of the parts. Any tin pot outfit can post “custom builds” on the internet for seemingly competitive prices but (and it’s a big but) the impact of the quality of the build cannot be underestimated. The process of taking relatively flexible and delicate parts and forming them in to a wheel set that will stand the test of time is a complex and studied art. Factory options take a good proportion of this gamble away. However, if you opt for a custom build then you need to find a good old fashioned trusted wheel builder. You can do this by using custom options from internet sellers (there are some excellent ones out there) but I personally like to look the guy who builds my wheels in the eye. Never has there been a better case for using your quality local bike shop.
The build pictured consists of a pair of Hope Pro 2’s in gold with 10mm bolt in option rear hub laced to Mavic 721’s with silver DT spokes. This set in question was expertly built by Tom at my local branch of Leisure lakes in Wolverhampton. Ordered on Monday morning and ready by Wednesday afternoon the turnaround considering the hubs were not in stock was very impressive and the advice and service offered was excellent. Big shout to Sandy and his team. Pricing is also competitive with the factory option and in this case a post shakedown tune up was included in the price. Unlike the factory option you do not get the adapters and spare spokes so make sure you specify clearly which hub options you want. (Adapters are available as an after market options).
Hope Pro II Front Hub
First impressions of the wheel set are that they look really trick. One of the advantages of custom is that I was able to go for the gold hubs to match the link on my 08 SX trail. It would be nice if the 20mm adapters on the front hub had matched rather than plain old black but I guess you can’t have everything. Going custom also made the 10mm bolt in option a possibility. The Factory set is QR only. Stainless silver spokes may not be to everyone’s taste but I have broken enough black spokes to put me off them for life if given the choice. The 721 rims were a no brainer. Mavic have had a rim this shape in their range for years and it just plain works. It may not look the greatest thanks to the V brake ready rim shape but they are lighter and stronger than the disc only equivalent. I personally think the new decals add something to the mix but I guess it’s a matter of taste.
Potato Masher Optional Extra
At just £4.99 the masher is well worth buying and don't forget to take out an additional 3 years warranty on it at just £49.99 per year.
I think the biggest advantage of the custom route is choice. You are not at the mercy of some brand managers idea of what your perfect set up should be. Want pink Camo Sun rims, you got it. Want gun smoke grey hubs, you got it.
The only thing left for these wheels is to be abused by my hefty frame; they will spend the next few months being swapped between the Heckler and the SX to see how they stand up. I can’t wait to see how they go. Watch this space for an update and if you see Paton on the trails before me, make sure you knock him off.
Chris Oakley.
Stay Unclipped.
Si Paton..
www.Descent-Gear.com
Royal Racing 2009 Gear Instock!
Must Read This Week
- 1. STUND Episode 5 - Watch Now! 26157 reads
- 2. Andrew Taylor - Bike Check 18224 reads
- 3. Chase Life #9 - Get yo 3's dumped! 14742 reads
- 4. X Fusion Side flight Championships 14375 reads
- 5. Sam Blenkinsop joins Lapierre! 13869 reads
- 6. Team Ok - First Short Film 13016 reads
- 7. Loeka Tech Jacket & Pants Review 12397 reads
- 8. Brendan Fairclough Training Session 12258 reads
67 Comments
- + 23
jamesgoslingphotography
(Nov 18, 2008 at 0:15)
nice article (Y) Hope pro 2s are amazing hubs.
i have had my pro2's for 5-6 years now , they went from my HT to my full bounce, still kicking ass , the clicking in the hub don't get any quieter tho 
Hope pro two hubs are amazing. They just keep clicking away forever, at a decent price too. Make sure you mix some double cream into your mash potato, it'll get you that professional consistancy 
And probably make you shit.
And probably make you shit.
had my ss one for only a year but rode hard everyday almost all summer and only problem was the bolts slipped easy atfer just tightening them pretty hard
But i recommend these hubs for sure for any type of riding
But i recommend these hubs for sure for any type of riding
[Reply]
i am sorry but ive snapped two of them their good but they dont last long
http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/1988155/
http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/1988155/
I would take burgtec,hadleys hubs over hopes. If your going with hubs made in england then the 48 point engagement burgtecs blow the hopes away.
yes fair enough burgtecs and hadleys are more expensive but seeing the quality of the burgtec compared to the pro2 its noticeable, plus you get a lighter hub with burgtec and with both hadley and burgtec a much better pickup than hopes poor 24t to the ratchet
Not a big enough difference for me personally to justify the massive price difference. A 150x10 rear Burgtec cost the same as a set of F+R Hopes!
i no this doesnt relate to the hope hubs that allow gears. but the single speed one is 48 point engagement. and for 220 bux. id say thats a great deal
I've been XC and all mountain riding for just over a year on off the shelf, CRAPPY RIMS. I was dying for rim knowledge last night- thanks for the insight!
Are you put off black spokes because fewer shops usually have the right lengths on hand? The article sounds like you think that black spokes break more than silver spokes? I can't see there being any truth to this. Maybe I'm missing something? I'm just curious.
it seems true
i've built hundreds of wheels as a pro mechanic in one of the busiest shops in the world. it's proven itself over and over again. Black spokes break more often. As long as you're using quality spokes( because low quality spokes that most oem wheels are built with, are crap no matter what colour) then silvers the way to go. Plus they look bling. Any spoke will break if the chain is shifted into the wheel enough times so avoid that.
There's a way to lace the wheel that makes a chain into the wheel less damaging. But thats a secret so never mind.
It would seem that in order for the spokes to hold the colour the metal mixture or heat treatment or something important would have to be different.
I'd love it if a spoke company would come out and clear this up.
I know from experience in the manufacture of other bike parts that things like this can make a difference. For example painted aluminum cranks are weaker because the heat used to cure the paint (if powder coated) affects the heat treatment of the metal.
i've built hundreds of wheels as a pro mechanic in one of the busiest shops in the world. it's proven itself over and over again. Black spokes break more often. As long as you're using quality spokes( because low quality spokes that most oem wheels are built with, are crap no matter what colour) then silvers the way to go. Plus they look bling. Any spoke will break if the chain is shifted into the wheel enough times so avoid that.
There's a way to lace the wheel that makes a chain into the wheel less damaging. But thats a secret so never mind.
It would seem that in order for the spokes to hold the colour the metal mixture or heat treatment or something important would have to be different.
I'd love it if a spoke company would come out and clear this up.
I know from experience in the manufacture of other bike parts that things like this can make a difference. For example painted aluminum cranks are weaker because the heat used to cure the paint (if powder coated) affects the heat treatment of the metal.
Uh oh... duz this mean my hollowbited r gna spontaneously combust when I'm riding??? I KNEW I shuda gone w/ silver HollowBites or Profiles! >:/
I don't know about Black spokes being weaker. But i have snapped more black then silver. Including Rims I laced mutli-coloured. You could paint the silver ones any colour you want.
?
I can't see there being any difference other then a tiny (very) weight difference , besides black spokes look alomst silver in no time with stone chips and spoke rubbing
Black spokes ARE weaker. Fact.
The process they go through to be made black weakens the metal, therefore making them weaker then the silver ones.
The process they go through to be made black weakens the metal, therefore making them weaker then the silver ones.
[Reply]
The wheel builder at my local bike shop, (big Al at wheelcraft if anyone knows him), tells me that black spokes are weaker than normal silver ones and thats why he tends not to use them. Think its the anodizing process that weakens them, the heat makes them brittle. If anyone knows for sure please post!
but yeh in my experience I've snapped loads of black spokes and only bent a few silver ones, yes both straight gauge as well. I know its not scientific but hey.
I also enjoyed the article, although i'll admit I'm not a huge Hope fan, i liek those hubs, good quality reasonable price
but yeh in my experience I've snapped loads of black spokes and only bent a few silver ones, yes both straight gauge as well. I know its not scientific but hey.
I also enjoyed the article, although i'll admit I'm not a huge Hope fan, i liek those hubs, good quality reasonable price
That makes sense if the anodizing process changes the grain structure. Since spokes are cold drawn the heat could possibly affect the spoke negatively. That's probably the best explanation I've heard so far. I'm just about to build up a set of 823's on Pro II's and I was going to use black spokes. I think I'll go with silver now based on the insight gained here. I'm all about reliability and if you can get a little more performance out of something I'll take it over vanity.
what? the process of dipping them in paint? the only spokes that are anodized, are aluminum. the DT's and wheel smith spokes are both steel and are merely dipped or sprayed with paint since you can't anodize steel....
the absolute stupidity of some people, especially the ones others hold in high regard, will never cease to amaze me.
http://www.finishing.com/374/71.shtml
the absolute stupidity of some people, especially the ones others hold in high regard, will never cease to amaze me.
http://www.finishing.com/374/71.shtml
What's with the negative props? Like you've never made a mistake or not thought something through entirely. The holier than thou additude of some people never ceases to amaze me.
Whilst in Morzine this year I got 2 punctures in the same day, and spent more time removing and replacing a dual ply high roller to my DT5.1 rim than I did riding.
My mates thought watching me wrestle with it was hilarious, glad to see that it wasnt just my poor technique that was to blame!
My mates thought watching me wrestle with it was hilarious, glad to see that it wasnt just my poor technique that was to blame!
Great article! I have had wheelset build of hope pro2 hubs,mavic ex721,dt 1.8/2.0 spokes on my dh bike about 8 months, and they really can take serious beating and abuse.they didint even care about 5m roadgaps i rode last summer.rims are pretty soft,but with reasonable tyre pressure you can avoid dents..i rode almost whole summer with stupid 1.2 bar tyre pressure,and there is now few small dents on the rims.but the grip was amazing
How funny, I just built the exact wheelset for my sx trail last summer!! I opted for the mavic 721's while everyone was sweating the 5.1D's. So glad too cause these wheels are perfect.
Guys, Many thanks for your kind words about the article. It's nice to know the stuff is getting read and that people appreciate it....
As for price of the custom set featured, I paid £275 of my own hard earned with a 10% discount on the components cos I am a regular customer. This includes a re-tune after the first few rides. Pricing really is in line with the factory set but if you consider the extras you get maybe the factory set shade it on value.
Reference black spokes. I have heard two versions of the reasoning behind the difference in strength between silver and black. First up is the anodising theory alluded to in the thread above. Secondly, I have heard that initial batches of black spokes had a quality issue and people snapped them left right and indeed centre and it is now sorted but their rep is shattered.
All I know is that I have seen my way through more black spokes than I care to remember usually breaking at the bend in the hub on the driveside rear.I never seem to have the problem with silver. That said, the black spokes on the factory set have held up.....
As for price of the custom set featured, I paid £275 of my own hard earned with a 10% discount on the components cos I am a regular customer. This includes a re-tune after the first few rides. Pricing really is in line with the factory set but if you consider the extras you get maybe the factory set shade it on value.
Reference black spokes. I have heard two versions of the reasoning behind the difference in strength between silver and black. First up is the anodising theory alluded to in the thread above. Secondly, I have heard that initial batches of black spokes had a quality issue and people snapped them left right and indeed centre and it is now sorted but their rep is shattered.
All I know is that I have seen my way through more black spokes than I care to remember usually breaking at the bend in the hub on the driveside rear.I never seem to have the problem with silver. That said, the black spokes on the factory set have held up.....
dt rims are crap for sure.
santa cruz syndicate went through 75 of them at the mont saint anne world cup a few years back.
I'd go mavic all the way, But if your running 721's. make sure you change them before they get too dented. They don't like to hold tires on as well once beat up. whereas a 729 seems to much better.
Its pretty funny blowing a tire off in a high G corner. unless it hurts. then its not funny.
santa cruz syndicate went through 75 of them at the mont saint anne world cup a few years back.
I'd go mavic all the way, But if your running 721's. make sure you change them before they get too dented. They don't like to hold tires on as well once beat up. whereas a 729 seems to much better.
Its pretty funny blowing a tire off in a high G corner. unless it hurts. then its not funny.
I am a professional bike mechanic that works for a high-end shop in S-East England doing a lot of expensive custom build work
my hub of choice for customers wanting awesome hand-built wheels are hope pro II without a doubt, value for money, weight to strength ratio, build quality, service / warranty backup is second to none
when producing hubs in the quantities that Hope now do, you will get the odd hub go wrong, sometimes from new - whenever this has rarely happened, Hope have stood behind their product 100% and remedied it at no cost to our shop
I personally have never found any issue with freehub "engagement" on Pro IIs having ridden them on some of the harshest and most technical trails in the world like Vancouver's North Shore and Whistler's Garbanzo expansion, and filthy muddy wet trails in North Wales, England, or for dirt jumping and skatepark which puts alot of stress into the freehub mechanism
regarding black spokes - spokes are not anodised - you cannot anodise steel - only aluminium, the process used to colour steel spokes is very different to anodising (anodising is a chemical surface etch process using salts and electricity, not heat)
DT Swiss claim their black spoke production does not weaken their spokes as compared to their silver spokes, and on the 100's of wheels I have hand built, and my own wheels over the years, I have not found any difference in strength between silver or black spokes from a quality supplier like DT Swiss
what you MAY find is that shops do not always have the correct length of black spokes, and will sometimes use spokes that are 1mm or 2mm the incorrect length and "fudge" the wheelbuild, which can lead to a weaker wheel placing more stress on the spoking - and a higher failure rate
good article though
my hub of choice for customers wanting awesome hand-built wheels are hope pro II without a doubt, value for money, weight to strength ratio, build quality, service / warranty backup is second to none
when producing hubs in the quantities that Hope now do, you will get the odd hub go wrong, sometimes from new - whenever this has rarely happened, Hope have stood behind their product 100% and remedied it at no cost to our shop
I personally have never found any issue with freehub "engagement" on Pro IIs having ridden them on some of the harshest and most technical trails in the world like Vancouver's North Shore and Whistler's Garbanzo expansion, and filthy muddy wet trails in North Wales, England, or for dirt jumping and skatepark which puts alot of stress into the freehub mechanism
regarding black spokes - spokes are not anodised - you cannot anodise steel - only aluminium, the process used to colour steel spokes is very different to anodising (anodising is a chemical surface etch process using salts and electricity, not heat)
DT Swiss claim their black spoke production does not weaken their spokes as compared to their silver spokes, and on the 100's of wheels I have hand built, and my own wheels over the years, I have not found any difference in strength between silver or black spokes from a quality supplier like DT Swiss
what you MAY find is that shops do not always have the correct length of black spokes, and will sometimes use spokes that are 1mm or 2mm the incorrect length and "fudge" the wheelbuild, which can lead to a weaker wheel placing more stress on the spoking - and a higher failure rate
good article though
Should probably have noticed the "anodised only for Aliminium" pitfall!
I wounder how they make them black...Electrocote/Electrophoretic? I'll have to do some digging and find out.....
I wounder how they make them black...Electrocote/Electrophoretic? I'll have to do some digging and find out.....
-bandit, didn't see your post before I got outraged and made a mockery of dipshits a couple of posts up, thank you for being one of the few smart people around here.
after 10 years of working in a bike shop, i would say that I have replaced the same number of silver and black spokes, if not more silver ones(for the simple fact that more people have them).
after 10 years of working in a bike shop, i would say that I have replaced the same number of silver and black spokes, if not more silver ones(for the simple fact that more people have them).
True, Steel can't be anodized but you can produce a black steel spoke by a hot black oxide process. The result of the process is an very thin and slightly corrosion resistant dark black iron oxide finish. The process does not affect the steels grain structure or other properties because of the relitively low temperature it is performed at and therefore doesn't affect the metals performance. I'm not sure that this is the process used on spokes but I'm pretty sure that when I looked at the black spokes I had lying around that it didn't look like paint.
Gsnickets the only mockery here it the bad name you give people that are real bike mechanics.
Gsnickets the only mockery here it the bad name you give people that are real bike mechanics.
Im running hope pro II on all my bikes, and have loved them untill resently...
first problem: the alloy shell that hope use is cnc'd out a single piece of billet. Not a problem untill I snapped 3 spoked out of the hub flange. Freak accident? maybe.
second problem: my new front hub on my XC bike has devolped play after just 2 rides... Unlucky? possibly
Third problem: The springs in the free hub body on my Jump bike were destroyed after a few months and I was running on one pawl. I couldent believe my luck... am I that unlucky? must be.
I still realy love hope (just look at my profile, I have hope everywhere), and they are a steel next to king prices, but... I think Im gona change to DT hubs on my bikes... better alloy, better internals and lighter wieght.
And as for DT alloy being to soft... I ride 729's on my jump bike... ther like poridge next to my DT's. and same as been said across the baord, roady friends have changed from mavic wheel sets to zipp, and cant believe how stiff they are in comparison. I think some 6.1s are in order...
first problem: the alloy shell that hope use is cnc'd out a single piece of billet. Not a problem untill I snapped 3 spoked out of the hub flange. Freak accident? maybe.
second problem: my new front hub on my XC bike has devolped play after just 2 rides... Unlucky? possibly
Third problem: The springs in the free hub body on my Jump bike were destroyed after a few months and I was running on one pawl. I couldent believe my luck... am I that unlucky? must be.
I still realy love hope (just look at my profile, I have hope everywhere), and they are a steel next to king prices, but... I think Im gona change to DT hubs on my bikes... better alloy, better internals and lighter wieght.
And as for DT alloy being to soft... I ride 729's on my jump bike... ther like poridge next to my DT's. and same as been said across the baord, roady friends have changed from mavic wheel sets to zipp, and cant believe how stiff they are in comparison. I think some 6.1s are in order...
you have got to be kidding! i rode my 729s for three years and sold them as true, round and un-dented as the day i bought them. now i've been on 5.1d's for one short summer and they look like a sumo rode the bike for 8 years with no tires!
I will NEVER buy a DT rim again! Look at the forums, I am not alone on this one.
I will NEVER buy a DT rim again! Look at the forums, I am not alone on this one.
you do know that ex5.1d's are AM rims and not FR rims????
you should have replaced the 729's with fr6.1's... same as chase uses, and alot of downhillers.
you should have replaced the 729's with fr6.1's... same as chase uses, and alot of downhillers.
right, but you compared 729s to DT rims, although you didn't mention what DT rims you were runningand. whether they're 6.1 or 5.1, however, i think MOST on pinkbike would agree that they are too soft. That being said, I rode less this year, and less aggressively, than I had in previous years...the DT's just suck.
I built them spinners up, bit surprised to see them on the net but hay ho that’s the way of the world wide web.
As far as black and silver spokes go we keep a lot of size in stock of both colours but its a fact that DT do more chose in silver than black as you can only get equal number in black e.g. 258mm, 260mm. but that is never really an issue as you can get way with a 1mm either way.
I would always recommend silver spokes as I feel they look better and age better and for some reason I just prefer to build with silver spokes.
I have got the exact build on my bike but I have also tied and soldered them.
If you want Chris drop them into the shop and I will tie and solder them for free as they have got a bit of exposure. Its something I have been doing a lot trying to bring it back a bit. Here is a link to mine http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/2709037/
As far as black and silver spokes go we keep a lot of size in stock of both colours but its a fact that DT do more chose in silver than black as you can only get equal number in black e.g. 258mm, 260mm. but that is never really an issue as you can get way with a 1mm either way.
I would always recommend silver spokes as I feel they look better and age better and for some reason I just prefer to build with silver spokes.
I have got the exact build on my bike but I have also tied and soldered them.
If you want Chris drop them into the shop and I will tie and solder them for free as they have got a bit of exposure. Its something I have been doing a lot trying to bring it back a bit. Here is a link to mine http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/2709037/
thats wounder full if u don't have to true a rim.......other wise is take a pair of side cutters and cut your spokes out........but dam those hubs are mint, i think I'm gonna get a set of those instead of powder coating the ones i have now
Tom, Didn't mean to be so secret squirrel but Si asked me to do this after they'd been built. Might very well take you up on the tie and solder offer.
that's retarded...i started breaking down a set of hope/dt wheels same as the article a couple of hours ago to replace new alex rims. I'm just taking a break before the final true of the second wheel. so weird this article would pop up while working on the same wheelset!
hopes rock man. great quality, and good price point. super easy to pull apart and rebuild - maybe 10 minute job. i love mine. dt's were a bit soft though i found - hense the alex rims!
hopes rock man. great quality, and good price point. super easy to pull apart and rebuild - maybe 10 minute job. i love mine. dt's were a bit soft though i found - hense the alex rims!
Guys,
Seems you all like Chris Oakleys (Justice35) wise words, therefore i've just sent him over a Shimano SLX groupset along with one of those new fancy RaceFace Chainguides. Therefore keep em peeled.
On another note Chris and myself are over Cannock Chase tonight (Weds) for a XC spin, 17:45 Marquis Drive. If anyone fancys Clent Hills next Tuesday 19:30 were off again, just mail me!
Cheers.
Si Paton..
Seems you all like Chris Oakleys (Justice35) wise words, therefore i've just sent him over a Shimano SLX groupset along with one of those new fancy RaceFace Chainguides. Therefore keep em peeled.
On another note Chris and myself are over Cannock Chase tonight (Weds) for a XC spin, 17:45 Marquis Drive. If anyone fancys Clent Hills next Tuesday 19:30 were off again, just mail me!
Cheers.
Si Paton..
"first problem: the alloy shell that hope use is cnc'd out a single piece of billet. Not a problem untill I snapped 3 spoked out of the hub flange. Freak accident? maybe.
second problem: my new front hub on my XC bike has devolped play after just 2 rides... Unlucky? possibly
Third problem: The springs in the free hub body on my Jump bike were destroyed after a few months and I was running on one pawl. I couldent believe my luck... am I that unlucky? must be."
if you speak to Hope when any problem like these occur, they will take care of it very quickly under warranty
I developed play in my Pro II 20mm after a few weeks and they sent me new bearings free to fit, and said if that did not work. to send them my wheel and they would rebuild it free with a new hub
we had a kid crack the hub shell on his Pro II 150 x 12 after 2 months, again this was taken care of within 4 days by Hope
I broken 2 of the pawls in my rear Pro II doing lots of tiretaps on my MTB, and called up Hope, within 48 hours I had new pawls and springs, the freehub can be pulled apart by hand and the pawls replaced in 5 minutes, no problems since..
second problem: my new front hub on my XC bike has devolped play after just 2 rides... Unlucky? possibly
Third problem: The springs in the free hub body on my Jump bike were destroyed after a few months and I was running on one pawl. I couldent believe my luck... am I that unlucky? must be."
if you speak to Hope when any problem like these occur, they will take care of it very quickly under warranty
I developed play in my Pro II 20mm after a few weeks and they sent me new bearings free to fit, and said if that did not work. to send them my wheel and they would rebuild it free with a new hub
we had a kid crack the hub shell on his Pro II 150 x 12 after 2 months, again this was taken care of within 4 days by Hope
I broken 2 of the pawls in my rear Pro II doing lots of tiretaps on my MTB, and called up Hope, within 48 hours I had new pawls and springs, the freehub can be pulled apart by hand and the pawls replaced in 5 minutes, no problems since..
Hello all,
After reading through the posts, I need to chime in to correct some mis-statements and offer some product updates.
Firstly, regarding spokes. We hear this debate regarding the strength of black or silver spokes a lot. DT Swiss spokes are blackened by a chemical process which does not use a significant amount of heat. I think someone pointed out that you can't anodize steel and that is correct (check out this link to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anodizing) . The blackening process can affect the breaking point of a spoke but is only noticeable when using low quality of stainless steel. You wouldn't see this on a DT spoke because we use only a very high quality of stainless steel. Generally you see this issue on machine built wheels, (most likely with low quality spokes) that haven't been built to the correct tension. In this case, the low quality material has been weakened by the blacking process and when the improperly tensioned spoke is loaded and unloaded during riding you get a broken spoke. Basically, if you use a spoke manufactured from a high grade of stainless steel and then tensioned correctly you shouldn't have any problem. Here's a hint--if their cheap they are probably made from heap material!
Secondly, regarding rims. The EX5.1d rim was designed as an All Mtn rim, which is stated on our website and in our catalog Many of the DH pros run it because it is very light (500 grams) and gets them to the podium--DT wheels saw somewhere around 31 out of 40 WC podiums in 2008 with many of those on EX5.1d's--I think that says a lot for the rim. The comment that Santa Cruz went through 75 rims at Mont Saint Anne a few years ago is pure BS. I was there and I was working to support the team. More realistically they probably went through about 15-20 rims for the week and believe it or not this is pretty typical for the pro DH guys because they like to use perfectly clean rims for their race runs. For 2009 the FR6.1d will change to the FR600 which has a newly designed profile which allows for more material where it's needed at the sidewalls, and also gets a harder alloy. The EX5.1d will also get this harder alloy going into 2009.
While it's no secret that the FR6.1d rims are softer than optimum for some riders, there was an initial design reason for that. We don't anodize any of our welded rims because we found during testing that anodized rim were more susceptible to cracking and catastrophic failures than non anodized rims (which obviously dent easier.) A positive aspect of a softer rim is that you get less pinch flats--last year I counted 15 flats at the DH Final at Mont Saint Anne--none on DT rims. We do make some harder anodized rims such as the mid-range E540 which is also used on the E2200 wheelset (28mm wide and 540g) and the upcoming E530 rim (28mm wide and 530g). We will also have a new 32mm anodized FR/DH rim coming in the future.
That's it--thanks to everyone for their comments and feedback--we appreciate it.
Best regards
Kenny Roberts
North (and South) American Sales and Mktg Mngr
After reading through the posts, I need to chime in to correct some mis-statements and offer some product updates.
Firstly, regarding spokes. We hear this debate regarding the strength of black or silver spokes a lot. DT Swiss spokes are blackened by a chemical process which does not use a significant amount of heat. I think someone pointed out that you can't anodize steel and that is correct (check out this link to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anodizing) . The blackening process can affect the breaking point of a spoke but is only noticeable when using low quality of stainless steel. You wouldn't see this on a DT spoke because we use only a very high quality of stainless steel. Generally you see this issue on machine built wheels, (most likely with low quality spokes) that haven't been built to the correct tension. In this case, the low quality material has been weakened by the blacking process and when the improperly tensioned spoke is loaded and unloaded during riding you get a broken spoke. Basically, if you use a spoke manufactured from a high grade of stainless steel and then tensioned correctly you shouldn't have any problem. Here's a hint--if their cheap they are probably made from heap material!
Secondly, regarding rims. The EX5.1d rim was designed as an All Mtn rim, which is stated on our website and in our catalog Many of the DH pros run it because it is very light (500 grams) and gets them to the podium--DT wheels saw somewhere around 31 out of 40 WC podiums in 2008 with many of those on EX5.1d's--I think that says a lot for the rim. The comment that Santa Cruz went through 75 rims at Mont Saint Anne a few years ago is pure BS. I was there and I was working to support the team. More realistically they probably went through about 15-20 rims for the week and believe it or not this is pretty typical for the pro DH guys because they like to use perfectly clean rims for their race runs. For 2009 the FR6.1d will change to the FR600 which has a newly designed profile which allows for more material where it's needed at the sidewalls, and also gets a harder alloy. The EX5.1d will also get this harder alloy going into 2009.
While it's no secret that the FR6.1d rims are softer than optimum for some riders, there was an initial design reason for that. We don't anodize any of our welded rims because we found during testing that anodized rim were more susceptible to cracking and catastrophic failures than non anodized rims (which obviously dent easier.) A positive aspect of a softer rim is that you get less pinch flats--last year I counted 15 flats at the DH Final at Mont Saint Anne--none on DT rims. We do make some harder anodized rims such as the mid-range E540 which is also used on the E2200 wheelset (28mm wide and 540g) and the upcoming E530 rim (28mm wide and 530g). We will also have a new 32mm anodized FR/DH rim coming in the future.
That's it--thanks to everyone for their comments and feedback--we appreciate it.
Best regards
Kenny Roberts
North (and South) American Sales and Mktg Mngr
Thanks kenny, we needed that clarification!
But since most of us are not pro DH guys who can afford to change rim each race, would you not say a mavic rim like the ex721 or 729 would be more suitable for our purposes? From what i have heard and seen, they may be a bit heavier but they hold out much better in the long run.
But since most of us are not pro DH guys who can afford to change rim each race, would you not say a mavic rim like the ex721 or 729 would be more suitable for our purposes? From what i have heard and seen, they may be a bit heavier but they hold out much better in the long run.
"We do make some harder anodized rims such as the mid-range E540 which is also used on the E2200 wheelset (28mm wide and 540g) and the upcoming E530 rim (28mm wide and 530g)."
that's pretty clear.
that's pretty clear.
That's a valid question. In comparing the FR6.1d and EX5.1d rim with harder rims such as Mavic or Sun, it comes down to some key questions such as:
1. Does the small amount of time you save with a lighter rim get you on the podium and how important is that to you?
2. Does your riding style (lighter on wheels-more finesse--not lots of big air landing in rocks)allow you to ride a softer rim with and not have issues? We have many people that rave about our rims and don't have issues, but I think you hear more online when it's negative.
3. If you spent a $1,000 bucks to get to and attend a race and you flatted in your final run would you be bummed?
Bottom line is, I don't think anything is perfect for everyone, so I guess my answer is that yes for some people and no for others. I spent 10 years as an outside rep for several brands in the Rocky Mtns (Colorado based) and several years racing and I've seen a lot of broken sh#t! Obviously we have heard the complaints and seen the results and are making a change (this is the fourth change on this rim)which will make them harder and more dent resistant. This is why I also pointed out the hard anodized rims that we make. There are a lot of good products on the market and people should choose the one that works the best for them. I hope the new FR6.1d will meet peoples needs and expectations such as yours in the future.
I do realize that a lot of the people on this site are strong riders and many are riding in rocky areas such as Whistler, and generally that's where we have seen the most issues.
Finally, we have been very liberal with our service policy on these rims when contacted by customers up to this point, so I hope we've taken care of the majority of people that weren't happy with the performance.
Thanks-Kenny
1. Does the small amount of time you save with a lighter rim get you on the podium and how important is that to you?
2. Does your riding style (lighter on wheels-more finesse--not lots of big air landing in rocks)allow you to ride a softer rim with and not have issues? We have many people that rave about our rims and don't have issues, but I think you hear more online when it's negative.
3. If you spent a $1,000 bucks to get to and attend a race and you flatted in your final run would you be bummed?
Bottom line is, I don't think anything is perfect for everyone, so I guess my answer is that yes for some people and no for others. I spent 10 years as an outside rep for several brands in the Rocky Mtns (Colorado based) and several years racing and I've seen a lot of broken sh#t! Obviously we have heard the complaints and seen the results and are making a change (this is the fourth change on this rim)which will make them harder and more dent resistant. This is why I also pointed out the hard anodized rims that we make. There are a lot of good products on the market and people should choose the one that works the best for them. I hope the new FR6.1d will meet peoples needs and expectations such as yours in the future.
I do realize that a lot of the people on this site are strong riders and many are riding in rocky areas such as Whistler, and generally that's where we have seen the most issues.
Finally, we have been very liberal with our service policy on these rims when contacted by customers up to this point, so I hope we've taken care of the majority of people that weren't happy with the performance.
Thanks-Kenny
Post A New Comment
Why was a comment deleted?
1. add additional on topic info to the article that other users will find useful
2. add props and support/encouragement for the video/photo/article/product/story
3. add and explain constructive criticism for the video/photo/article/product/story
1. add additional on topic info to the article that other users will find useful
2. add props and support/encouragement for the video/photo/article/product/story
3. add and explain constructive criticism for the video/photo/article/product/story
RSS
