Interbike Preview: Two Carbon Bikes from Ellsworth

Sep 16, 2013 at 12:15
Sep 16, 2013
by Richard Cunningham  
 
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Ellsworth has been dancing on the edge of a full-carbon production bike for years, first, with the development of its half-carbon Truth, dual-suspension XC design and later, the Evolve 29er, with an aluminum swingarm. For 2014, the Southern California bike brand will have a pair of full-carbon bikes - both sporting 27.5-inch wheels - the 120-millimeter-travel Absolute Truth and the 140-millimeter-travel Epiphany Carbon XC.

Ellsworth joins a growing list of small and mid-sized bike brands that once specialized in building premium aluminum frames and are now under intense pressure from big-box bike makers to make the leap to carbon production - and to make the inevitable journey to Pacific Rim composite shops. The experience gained by Ellsworth in its previous carbon products is evident in the design and quality of construction of its first complete frame efforts, and the quality is more than skin deep. The new frames are crafted using Japanese-made Toray carbon material, which is highly regarded by the cycling industry as the best available.

With a devoted following of XC/trail riders, it should come as no surprise that Ellsworth's carbon Truth and Epiphany share geometry and component selections that mirror those purposes. For PB members, the Epiphany Carbon XC seems most appropriate, with its 69.5 degree head angle and 140-millimeter-travel chassis. Ellsworth's brand of four-bar suspension has proven to deliver excellent climbing and pedaling performance, and the new, slightly slacker geometry should boost the bike's technical skills to provide a nice balance for technical trail riding.


The following photos and information were extracted from the Ellsworth Press release:



Epiphany Carbon XC

Ellsworth Epiphany Carbon XC

Epiphany Carbon XC 275 frame features Ellsworth's 'Anisotropic Force Vector Carbon' layup design — this high modulus carbon fiber is provided by Toray, the world’s leading producer of aerospace carbon. The Epiphany Carbon features a laden head angle of 69.5 degrees, and 140mm of rear travel coupled with 150mm Fox Racing 34mm Kashima CTD front fork. This geometry with the new 27.5 wheels size translates to the same legendary handling as the Epiphany namesake with 26” wheels, 30.9mm seat tube for dropper posts, and internal cable routing for stealth style remote dropper or normal, 12 x 142 rear axle, available in three component groups, with wheel and component options. A new chainstay design providing optimum tire clearance and increased stiffness without additional weight. “The Epiphany Carbon, with its stiffer, lighter, more aggressive trail geometry, is an ideal machine for riders seeking that nimble climbing long travel trail bike experience,” Ellsworth said. “Just like the original Epiphany, the new Carbon XC 275 utilizes the time tested evolved, refined, and proven ICT suspension to provide zero energy loss, fully active travel. The result is a benchmark in maximized efficiency, Increased traction and control for more speed, and reduced rider fatigue for more distance.”

Ellsworth Epiphany Carbon XC details

The 2014 Epiphany XC Carbon is available in a beautiful, Nude 3K carbon with an elegant and artistic gold tribal detailing, available in S, M, and L. Its Aerospace Aluminum cousin, the Epiphany Enduro 275, also debuts for 2014, in Ellsworth’s timeless shot peened, anodized and laser etched finish, with 27.5” wheels — and is available in five sizes (XS to XL).

Epiphany Carbon XC 275 Specs:

SRAM X9 — $5,995 MSRP
Shimano XT — $6,995 MSRP
Shimano XTR —$8,995 MSRP
Frameset — $3,495 MSRP

Find all the specs and geometry for the 2014 Epiphany Carbon XC here.



Absolute Truth - 2014

Absolute Truth

The new Absolute Truth features the 27.5” wheels, with the same wheelbase and geometry of the legendary Truth frame. With the lower optimized stand over of the ZS style headset and the unique shaping of the front triangle, Ellsworth has captured the aggressive geometry and bio-kinetically optimized rider position ideal for XC and Endurance racing, complete with 120 mm of travel. Coupled with the updated ICT suspension for today's gearing, 300 percent higher compaction pressure of the Toray Aerospace Carbon Fiber, and 120mm of XC efficient travel — the Absolute Truth is a new benchmark for XC racing and endurance riding.

Ellsworth Absolute Truth details

The 2014 Absolute Truth is available in a beautiful, multi-toned Candy Apple Red with pin striping and detail worthy of an art show. Its aerospace-aluminum cousin, the Truth, also with 27.5” wheels — are both available in five sizes (XS to XL).

Absolute Truth Specs:

SRAM X9 — $5,995 MSRP
Shimano XT — $6,995 MSRP
Shimano XTR —$8,995 MSRP
Frameset — $3,495 MSRP

Click here for complete specs and geometry for the Absolute Truth
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310 Comments

  • + 254
 $3500 for the frame. Go home Ellsworth, you're drunk.
  • + 133
 That is so ridiculous...who is buying these bikes? How are they still in business?

"aggressive geometry" = way too steep for the travel, so the bike aggressively tries to make you eat sh!t on anything technical.
  • + 27
 I can understand if it's made in house, but we all know where it's imported from.
  • - 319
 people with jobs buy these bikes... perhaps you should find one.
  • + 89
 jobs, really? completely overpriced and behind the times geometry wise. looks wise, the 90s are calling and want their designs back
  • + 44
 Oh no you didn't...
  • - 15
 Aggressive i>climbing/i> geometry...
  • + 112
 lol, how did this guy get to be a mod....
  • + 18
 I find the armchair engineer comments funny. Slack HTA is a gimmick, resulting in frankenbike geometry. The increased wheelsize allows the manufacturers to actually make bikes that ride well as the old marketing numbers can be revamped. This is a trail bike, not a gravity bike, much like the Ibis Mojo was. It had a 69deg HTA and handles amazingly. If you are a gravity rider, this isn't your bike.
  • + 40
 Nice try Willie, but we're all going to wait for what Waki and Protour have to say!
  • + 4
 mnorris122, looks like your account will be suspended quite soon Big Grin
  • + 2
 I read that they are very popular over in asia, don't ask me why because they are such an eyesore
  • + 1
 Oh no he wouldn't dare...
  • - 2
 C'mon give deeeight a break every mod entitled to a little trolling.
  • - 78
 And yet the users here wonder why manufacturers don't actually pay attention to their complaints... gee I wonder why....

A bigger wheel trail bike... geometry is actually spot on for the category, but nope, armchair engineers on pinkbike KNOW more and complain. Its not a 26er so again, they'll complain. It doesn't have a 20mm hub, complain. Its a Fox 34.... complain. As to the price complaint which comes up everytime such a bike is reviewed and I have to say everytime I post that pinkbike, mba, and others TEST what is given to be tested. Radek isn't going out and ordering these bikes on his visa card so his writers/editors can ride them. If you want "value" bikes to be tested, step up and pay for one to be sent in for testing. If you cannot afford one of those, let alone of these higher end ones, don't bitch about it because there are people here who CAN afford these bikes. And manufacturers listen to us because we do buy them.
  • + 54
 I understand that it could be a good bike and as of myself i have not commented at the price point. The main point is your attitude to the situation. Saying that people dont have jobs and that they are bitching about a bike that they cant afford. TBH i think you should handle yourself more professionally, especially as your a MOD.
  • + 9
 Jhou - I have nothing to say. I think I'll try to take some sabbatical again. I watched the world cup yesterday in wet and cold and thought that offline can be cool, This year my buddy stood by XC race with "29ers are gay" transparent, next year I we are taking this to the DH finals: "Sixers are for hipsters!"

As to Ellsworth, those bikes look really original and designed with lots of attentionto detail. Nice
  • + 0
 LOL, l prolly will be suspended by him, that's the funny part xD
  • + 0
 Na, your cool dude, If he where to suspend you, he will be proving everything you mentioned to everyone is wright.
  • - 35
 Disagreeing with someone doesn't get you suspended , nor does negative propping, though the irony is there it DOES get more people reading your comments if you hit some high number of negatives. Advertising yourself as a male prostitute in the buy-sell however....yeah that gets you suspended.
  • + 21
 yea, but being an insulting twat should get you removed as mod...
  • - 27
 Actually I think its what got me noticed to be one. But I probably should have added in my previous message that disagreeing with someone (without swearing AT them) won't get you suspended.
  • + 3
 You know what. I have to agree with Deeeight. He has a point, even if i dont like it and you should not swearing at him for that.Respect the Pinkbike rules. Saying that i know a lot of admins who use their power to abuse people... I think Deeeight it a cool admin TBH.
  • + 4
 Proof you don't always get what you pay for...
  • + 4
 idk, if l was radek, l wouldn't want someone like deeeight representing my business...
  • + 6
 Although I agree with Deeeight's comment on what manufacturers pay attention to, I do feel like Ellsworth has lost a tremendous amount of reputation over the past several years, more so that Kona even (until Kona's recent rebound) which is somewhat shocking. I can't think of the last time I saw a new Ellsworth on the trail or heard someone highly recommend one of their bikes. I'd be very surprised if their sales haven't declined substantially over the last few years. Seems they are relying more and more on a few sales on their past rep.
  • + 2
 Yeah i agree with katmai unfortunatly cuz manufacturers only listen to wealthy people who buy thier bikes. But just because this "moderater" deeight thinks he makes more money than people doesnt mean he needs to tlk people down. If ellsworth wants to bounce back like kona is make a bike for everyone not just the snobs
  • + 43
 Ellsworth has been irrelevant for years. Their geometry and philosophy belongs in the 90s. For sure, they resonate with bike snobs like dee eight who feels that you must have a "job" to own one. Actually, to own one you have to be more concerned that it says Ellsworth on it than how it rides because they are catering to elitist bike snobs. The geometry is actually spot on for their target market. That headtube angle is perfect for slaying the crushed stone path on the way to Starbucks. It doesn't matter that its steep, because 90 percent of them will never see a real trail. They are a "status" bike. Look at my $3500 frame hanging off the back of my 4wheel drive Audi that's never been off the pavement. Those that ride real trails know, Ellsworth's are for posers
  • + 1
 Skilled riders don't need bandaids like excessively slack HTAs to make the riding too easy. If you have skill, 69deg is fine LOL!!!
  • + 5
 I still don't like that ridicoulously huge rear triangle.
  • + 13
 "That headtube angle is perfect for slaying the crushed stone path on the way to Starbucks."

hilarious. you just made my day.
  • + 4
 Seriously? As the OP stated? Who buys these fugly bikes?
  • + 4
 Check the Pinkbike polls sometimes. They know their demographic. They know who is on this site. Most everyone here is a gravity junky. They already know we won't like these bikes. But they post them to try and expand the demo to less gravity oriented people.
  • + 3
 so if I'm getting this straight, deeeight is complaining that others are complaining but doesn't actually say anything in support of Ellsworth. Thanks for the judgment, pops. What else can be said about Ellsworth? These are the bikes you get when the designer is not an engineer, doesn't ride and maintains blissful unawareness of the direction of the industry. Great stuff.
  • + 9
 Well damn, I guess I'm a poser. But the bike sure does make me happy on the trails!
  • + 13
 What an absolutely unprofessional response from a moderator... I own two business, yet I'm not throwing around money willy nilly for no reason. Insinuating that people who don't buy these bikes don't have jobs is childish. It actually turns me off to reading articles on this site when moderators act like that.
  • + 3
 Obviously if they can afford the forms for 5 sizes of carbon frames (10 if you count both) than they aren't doing too bad. I don't understand what everyone has against Ellsworth. They seem to be quality built and hold up well. Don't knock em just because you can't afford them.
  • + 3
 deeight, I actually am gainfully employed. Thanks for your concern.
I am also just smart enough to know that for that price, I can get a complete Giant Trance 1 bike, or a Santa Cruz Solo frame and have $800 left over; in either case, you'll have a better designed and engineered bike.
At this point, most HT 29ers have 69° head angles...
  • - 18
 Ok look... facts... i know the average PBer doesn't like them but the site is trying to encourage a membership that DOES.

Fact #1 Ellsworth has ALWAYS been a boutique brand. Their bikes have always been selected for the discriminating buyer with the discriminating bank account.

Fact #2 I am not a Ellsworth fan in principal (due to Tony's past business practices) but I do understand the market segment they aim for, and cater to, and its not for cyclists in the cheap seats.

Fact #3 They sponsor Josh Bender, whom probably knows more about bikes and does development testing for them than most of the membership here.

Fact #4 They also have an annual weekend gathering for Ellsworth owners which has in times past been at Tony Ellsworth own Ranch where regular owners can come and stay and spend the weekend riding with Josh and others and get tips/feedback on how to setup their bikes better.

Fact #5 The Ellsworth 4-bar layout has looked the same with the huge rear links since frame #1 nearly 20 years ago. Its part and parcel with the ICT patented design layout. Kona which sometimes is compared to them ISN'T the same sort of linkage at all (the dropout pivot location is what matters) and has never been the same sort of boutique brand. If you compare Ellsworth to someone, you do it to Ibis, or Ventena.

Fact #6 The near 70 degree head angle, works just fine as a compromise for bikes which are actually expected to be PEDALED up a hill. Slack angles make for wandering steering, something you don't want when fighting against gravity.

Should I go on?
  • + 16
 Nobody has sold a car by telling the customer that they suck at driving cars.
  • + 22
 look deeight, your just digging yourself into a deeper hole.
  • + 22
 #1 Polish a turd, still a turd.

#2 No good bikes are cheap, especially carbon but there are definitely bikes from almost EVERY manufacturer that presents better value for the same type of kit.

#3 Almost every good bike maker hires smart people. I'm not an engineer.

#4 Fairly cool... I guess.

#5 Still a 4 bar/horst. Not that special.

#6 Any fit person without noodle arms can pedal a 68-67 degree HA up a hill. And it'll be more fun going down. No one can tell me that a 70 isn't more skittish than a 67 on the downs. Why make a bike with some much travel for climbing anyhow?
  • + 3
 It's just that a more neutral handling bike won't have a 67deg hta. I have two similar bikes, an ibis mojo sl with 69 hta, and a Titus el guapo with a 67 hta. The ibis is way funner over most terrain. The Titus gives up a lot in climbing, steering, and playfulness. It is a bit better on high speed descents, but the ibis isn't bad there. Even with 650b on the ibis, it's way more maneuverable and playful. Isn't that what everyone says they want? It's the slack frames that reduce playfulness (see review of the Scott) rather than the wheel size that everyone complains about.
  • + 9
 I live in Ramona CA, where the company was founded and where they still make the bikes to this day. Tony ellsworth is a big supporter of our local high school mtb team and he also rides himself. They also have awesome gravity and XC trails built all around their building. No bike company can build the right bike for everyone. Ellsworth is a quality company, I just dont understand the amount of criticism they are getting!
  • - 4
 Go SmEllsworth its your birthday, we gunna pardy with $80000 bikes cuz its my birfday.
  • + 0
 Willie, it really depends on your terrain. You are also talking about very different rear suspension designs in those two bikes which from my experience makes a much bigger difference in feel compared to a 1 or 2 degree HA difference. Undoubtedly a steeper HA is better for climbing. And as far as I have read, won't a 69 degree HA feel much more slack on 650b wheels than 26?
  • + 1
 I am fully aware of the different suspension designs. The Titus is one of the best climbing 6" travel bikes out there, but you can feel the front wander and flop more than the ibis. I also rode the I is for a couple years as a 26er before converting it. Didn't give up much if anything in playfulness, but much better rolling. The bike I had before the ibis was a 5.5" Horst link bike with a 69 hta. It handled very much like the ibis. Very little difference, other than the ibis doesn't require pro pedal.
  • + 0
 I'm not saying you don't, I was just bringing it up as a talking point. As I was saying it really depends on the terrain and I'm more confused about who this particular bike is for. If its aimed at the XC/Trail crown then almost everything about it is appropriate for that market. If its aimed at the AM crowd then I'd say its a bit behind quite a few new bikes in that segment. Purely numberwise though because without riding it I have no reference other than other bikes that I have ridden with similar numbers. Also I'll admit I haven't had a chance to ride 650b wheels yet so I probably am not qualified to judge these things but I definitely believe they have a place in the market.
  • - 1
 drunk and stoned. death to the walking beam assgrabber
  • - 2
 FACT 6 THEY BREAK ALOT
  • + 1
 facts 3 and 4 are hardly facts. Bender is a cool dude and a wonderful advocate of mountain biking, but doesn't do R&D testing for EHB. also, he's probably not the best test rider anyways since it's quite clear that these bikes are more of the XC/ light trail variety than all mountain/freeride/dh. the owners event is a great place for old guys riding original truths and isis' to show just who the biggest sycophant is. Fact 5, however, is very true. regardless of how it looks, it has little in common with a Kona. Specialized FSR is the most similar. as a former ellsworth owner, i had a very frustrating experience, especially considering tony's claim that he designs bikes to minimized rider fatigue (bearings wearing out after 6 months, plastic gasket in the seat collar wearing out after a couple weeks, unable to reach anyone by phone). at this price point with the "made in america" stamp, these annoyances are unacceptable. Having said all of that, it was the single best climbing bike I ever had, likely in part due to the steep HA and ICT.
  • + 4
 @Ellsworth, you clearly have the sexiest head tubes on the market!
  • + 0
 Talk about rough first day on the job. And I thought RC got a bunch of crap!
  • + 4
 It`s a shame... Ellsworth frames really are pieces of artwork in terms of workmanship, but they seriously need to do a redesign. Their bikes were amazing in the 90`s, but now its a decade later and they`re still using the exact same frame design and geometry.
  • + 0
 Using BENDER to support your case?! Hahaha! I have met him, and he is a nice guy, but his specialty was riding about 20ft in a straight line, and falling off of a cliff. Maybe landing sometimes. So having him as a "sponsored" rider somehow ups Ellsworth's gravity-crowd credibility? That's hilarious.
  • + 1
 deeeight you shoulda gave up a looooong time ago!
  • - 11
 @rumblefish255... Why should I give up? Because the people who give this place the bad reputation it has keep complaining whenever the magazine reviews something ? Its a good thing people like me DON'T give up, otherwise manufacturers might also and stop submitting things for testing, and the place can't survive on videos and race coverage alone.

@lalena... same basic frame design yes, as far as the suspension layout but then, its patented, and it still actually works as intended, even the long travel application like the Momentums, pedal really damn well. I can fault Ellsworth over their construction durability and warranty and advertising deceptions of years past, but they at least got themselves a good design that really doesn't need to be changed just because some people are tired of looking at it. If the bike doesn't appeal to you, move on to something that does. Its really that simple. Or at least it should be. As to the geometry, actually no, they're definitely not using the same geometry as twenty years ago.

@Jhou... and this is a great example as to why the editors/writers simply don't bother replying to comments on their articles, it just generates more peanut gallery criticisms.

@scottrallye... people need to stop thinking of Josh as JUST that guy who hucked off ridiculously high things.
  • - 1
 There's still market for these antiques. People from John Tomac era. Like a 67 Mustang and brand new 13 mustang.
  • + 0
 oooo looks like deeeight is becoming the new protour! and this time the new protour is a mod! yay pb drama!
  • + 7
 Because when you say "people with jobs buy these bikes... perhaps you should find one." you are making fun of every single person that reads your comment weather they have a job or not. you have made some good points i will give you that but when you start out saying something stupid and insulting everyone like that right of the bat you just sound like a total DICK. And then putting even more comments to try and make yourself look better just makes you look more stupid. Ya people are going to spend that kind of money on it but it is hard to grasp why someone would spend 3500 for just a frame that has very basic tech. But what someone who really wants to have a good experience on the trail weather they have a fat wallet or not needs to ask is "why would i buy this frame when i can get another bike that has a comparable or even better carbon frame with a full xt or x9 drivechain for only a thousand or so dollars more". Not to many people are going to choose the Elsworth. Oh and its people like you who give this site a bad name since you mentioned it.
  • - 14
 Yes well perhaps the people who are taking offense, should look in the mirror then before they post the drivel they often do in these reviews, when they're attacking whatever it is being reviewed, for FREE, for their benefit. That this is a FREE site to be on seems to often get forgotten by the users who come on and they never seem to remember.... if they don't like what gets reviewed, they can go elsewhere.

But when the first comment is...

"$3500 for the frame, go home ellsworth, you're drunk"

And it was already at a couple dozen positive prop level (its at +182 as I write this), well gee... that's not what manufacturers want to be reading. PB users are damned lucky that they're allowed to comment on reviews at all from the quick and easy safety of their computers. Print magazines you actually have to write a letter and hope the magazine editor deems it worthy of publication.

As to spending $3500 on this frame... the suspension design itself is basic tech, hell most every suspension design for bicycles is basic tech. But actually then BUILDING that technology into a bicycle frame... that's not so basic. You think its cheap to build these bikes?! Do you even the slightest idea how much it costs in tooling alone (nevermind the materials) to build a full suspension frame? Just the up front costs. I'm sure these new all-carbon models are running the company 100k in production start up costs. I don't begrudge them in wanting to make that capital outlay back in as short a time as possible.

Perhaps I should have gone with a more childish first response and said "can't afford one? sell a kidney". That's the usual sort of stupid statement that gets positive results on here.
  • + 3
 I dont get the hate, this is one of the nicest bike frames i have ever seen. of course its going to be expensive.
  • - 16
 Becoming? You new here or something? I was this way forever. Anyway protour isn't presently suspended so I'm not sure why he hasn't chimed in on this thread yet.
  • + 6
 You should find a new website to mod for as it sounds like you have so many problems with this one and the people who use it and you have proven to be the worst pb mod to date, I really hope Radek is reading this.
  • + 6
 # PB users are damned lucky that they're allowed to comment #
WTF ! deeeight.. wtf..

there is still something as free speech.. and if we werent allowed to comment someone will eventually open a forum topic about it,.. for discussion .. positive or negative !
these insinuations >> we are Lucky to.. is the same damm reason things are going so very well in the states.. (pittsburgh)

un -friggin believable Eek
  • - 20
 Users on web forums that are privately run often forget, there's no such thing as a right to free speech, and even the courts have said so. Look thru the FAQ and User agreement below, there's a host of restrictions on what can be said here. And btw... the plus membership doesn't give you an exemption from the rules on profanity. So would you like to edit that comment or shall I enforce the rules ?
  • + 5
 Wow thank god you arent a mod for vital, i want to support them more now for not using miserable moderators
  • + 7
 Mr Mod, do pinkbike a favour and stop commenting on this subject. You are alienating the very people who keep this website going, the users.
  • + 2
 i can start my own USA state and say that murder and torture is legal.. still doenst make it so ..

seconds why do i need to edit my comment for ? no profanity.. no cursing.. so what rules are you about to enforce..?
(also you make it a threat.,. either you do so..and explain why.. or you dont.. you dont posh with mod power..)

thirds.. this is not a private site.,. everyone can see it contents.. you only need an account to post.. private means completely shielded from the rest of the community,.. likie the bilderderg group...

i am saying this.. if this misuse and comunist rules are enforced by the people.. we are truly lost..

i have a bottle of olive oil and a can of lighter gas.. c'mon .. invade me...
  • - 19
 @cyberhawk... the un f believeable for one. actually using the F word, or trying to vanilla coat around the word with a different spelling that means the same thing, is treated the same way.
  • + 5
 are you a god fearing man ?
seconds.. the site automatically uses a * in every F-word..
if you would act upon every F... it would be a 2 man day job...
  • - 16
 Nope I'm depending on my mood, an agnostic, a frisbetarian, or a pastafarian.

And yes, we get an auto-alert when the filter robot replaces the vowel with the * so to know when to go in and see what was posted, the context, and decide whether to suspend the user or not.
  • + 1
 well at least there is some common sense there..
but for the rest of religious peeps.. damned also is a curse. .

but funny... the cops do that too lately.. i think you have guide lines.. that explicit tell you not to act in a personal way .. but by the rules.. you have to enforce..
you are a mod.. and should Always give the example.. otherwise . .you are no different from the rest..
also you can not tell people how to react on news ..or what to post..
its not like.. you may post !
> but only positive things i agree on..
  • - 15
 I already told mnoriss122 twelve hours ago that I wasn't gonna suspend him for disagreeing with me (I make no promises another mod doesn't ding him for calling me a twat).
  • + 5
 well for a positive turn here some advice.. dont mix in as a mod in discussions.. you should Always remain at a distance.,. and Swiss.. so therefor people can not act on you personal.. cause they dont know you.. or where you stand on a personal note. only act when needed.. this prevents these situations..
  • + 15
 I would love to see a list of words that send alerts to mods... I'm sure it would make my day. Muslim Hitler! Nazi fluffer! Catholic molestor! Gay Syrians! 15mm waldo lubricating 650boobs! That isn't hard to put into the MTB context as such expressions are often found in the wheel-size debate.
  • - 13
 nope no alerts from that waki.
  • - 2
 be carefull waki.. the syrians might act or the usa might use this for a false flag operation.. .. and they could invade poland.... again,.. we are walking on a silk string..
  • + 0
 @deeeight - just checking if you have an advanced algorithm allowing you to spot off-topic discussions.
@Cyberhawk - Soon in Europe, if you draw a picture of Mohammed, or write something having notions of racial or sexual discrimination, you will be more likely to get mugged by online-activists between 20-40 rather than by one of affected people... the Death Camp of Tolerance is in the making
  • + 1
 I'm interested to know what else Josh Bender is, other than that guy that smashed into the floor alot. Seriously what does he do now?
  • + 1
 hexhamstu , he's doing okay. as far as i know, he's into light freeride and downhill, as he physically can't do things he was doing 10 years ago
  • + 1
 3500 For a frame just so it will do this
www.pinkbike.com/photo/10102999
  • + 3
 yeah, that's what typical 3500 dollars frames should do nothing wrong here, mate
  • - 3
 Bender is also a course design for the redbull freeride world tour, and sometimes judge for their events. There was a profile on him in MBA a few months ago.
  • + 3
 this may be a free site but its revenue is based on number of hits by users not by the manufacturers or mods. this site survives because people come here and look at it and post driving numders that pinkbike can then take to advertisers and use to negotiate ad revenue.

deeeight, your attitude is ridiculous and the "facts' you spout are hardly that. bender isn't an engineer and as far as being a judge on the freeride tour, i'd think you'd find that most modern riders are perplexed at his inclusion as one. he may have went big, but he did it with little style or skill. he rode the longest travel frame and fork he could find and dead sailored everything. his skillset as a rider is somewhat limited. big balls, yes. grace and style? no. so making him out like a positive at this point for ellsworth is a little hard to take.

you want to see drop huge natural stunts with grace check out doerfling, now there's a rider with skill and balls. bender doesnt compare
  • + 1
 qbert2000 - while what you write about Bender might be true to larger extent, you cannot deny the role that hucking took in the development of gravity disciplines of mountain biking. And bender will always be the king of hucks, whether you like it or not. Hucking was what Redbull Rampage started with and only later people got comfortable with it so they started throwing bigger tricks. But something has to start somewhere. I cannot imagine MTB without Bender although I always despised huck-to-flat. I have no problem with him being a judge. Yes we need to move on - but denying history is bollocks. People having trouble with Bender - your humility levels are low, turn them up a bit please - might save your life - thank you
  • + 1
 People, don't mistake free speech as the same as freedom to be an ass. Promoting hate is bad no matter which venue or topic.
  • + 3
 I don't get the mod's rage. If you are that worried about criticism and ridicule over products and perceptions, why bother even having a comments section to begin with? I mean, you've got to expect the critics to show up along with the fanboys when you open things up for commentary. Slandering your user base instead of debating the OP is an odd move.
  • + 1
 i think ellsworth should stick to aluminium frames the price cant justify the benefits especially judging by the photos
  • + 0
 @ willie1
just because you're offended , doesn't mean you're right !
#Ricky gervais.
  • + 1
 "Just because I'm in a minority of one doesn't mean I'm wrong" - Clive Woodward, 2004.

I agree with everything everyone said. Bikes with 63 degree head angles are shit for most people. 69 is fine when you're used to it. I can ride my STP fast as shit downhill, that's got a 69 degree head angle and no back suspension.

What I do find mazing though is how this company is still in business. They make the shittest looking bikes and I've never seen one in real life. Someone said they're popular is Asia? Well I've never seen one. Having said that I feel the same about a lot of the smaller brands, such as Pivot, Last and Nicolai. They all look shit and dated.

I guess most people who actually buy bikes rather than just talking about them disagree with me, because they must sell in order to stay in business.

Me? I want a carbon Wilson even though I'd be a lot richer and faster on a Trance... I just want the best looking bike money can buy even though it doesn't really suit my riding. How the f*ck have Honda sold so many CBR1000s when they are shit scary, totally uncomfortable and unusable on the road? People buy what they want, not what they need, that's why.

In conclusion, somebody somewhere likes what Ellsworth are doing.
  • - 4
 I have been saying the following for months (i have been a mod a week)...

Contrary to what the people always complaining in news articles on the front page about whatever new thing is being reviewed would like to believe, the majority of site members are not dh/dj/other gravity disciipline riders any longer, nor do the majority really bother with the polls. The site has six hundred THOUSAND plus registered user accounts, yet never breaks past four digits combined poll results, and never gets more than triple digits of comments on any of the news articles. The majority of pb users don't post at all. I know probably a hundred local riders who have accounts here and i have only ever seen TWO of them actually post comments to a news item. There are a couple dozen i can think of that i have seen post in the forums, and some using the buy sell listings, but overall the majority of local riders on here would identify as the type of riders on the exact sorts of bikes being reviewed here, on terrain/trails these ellsworths would do exceptionally well on. There are even a bunch on ellsworths (and a whole lot on Ibis mojos of one version or another) and this is the level of bike they dream of owning.
  • + 2
 a lot of people i met @ the megavalanche had never heard of pinkbike.. esp english peeps..
seconds.. FB is winning from the forums.. (so i have heard.. i have no FB Smile )
they have their own groups..
  • + 4
 I have worked in mental health with children and adolescents for over 20 years. We have seen the impact of permissive parenting and the trend to "don't do anything to damage your child's self esteem." and it is being documented very well. People under 20 have 40% less empathy than the previous generations, and they have been mislead to believe that everything they say is important. It really isn't. The pendulum is slowly swinging back, but we will have to deal with a few generations of narcissists in the interim.
  • - 4
 @Jaame.... ever heard the expression "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" ?

Ellsworths keep looking the way they do (not talking the suspension layout they use but the colours/finish/annodizing) because that's what their buyers have kept wanting. You and others may find them ugly, but why go around telling people that they're ugly, instead of just saying nothing at all ? See that's what the majority of PB users who read the articles do. They read the story, form opinions in their head, and then move on. They don't stop to post a comment.
  • - 1
 Willie1 - but I have little self esteem and I'm not narcisstic by any means, my parents were very restrictive, yet I comment a lot - I just can't stop thinking and sending this shit out through my mouth and fingers, because I can't keep so much inside... help meeeee, deeeight kill meeee
  • - 7
 Nah WAKI, as long as you don't turn into protour I'm fine with you.
  • + 1
 "They read the story, form opinions in their head, and then move on. They don't stop to post a comment." @ deeeight Then why even bother having a comments section? It's there for people to use. Not every comment will be some insightful critique or some well written praise. (How many comments for products/videos/images/etc are just "sick!"?) Like I said, I don't get your rage. Hate it? Don't be a mod.
  • - 2
 I haven't any rage. And its been often discussed as to whether to keep the comment feature or not. But the way the site is coded, news stories on the front page are essentially blog posts by their writers, and I imagine it would be difficult to close the comments just for specific blog posts. Right now you can restrict it to your followers, or everybody. That's it. The irony to this blog in particular is that Ellsworth's sales will double this month, due to all the attention this thread has gotten, and people who didn't previously know of them, or particularly follow the brand, will now be considering them. Its pretty much a guarantee anytime ANYTHING gets posted product/bike review wise and a controversy erupts.
  • + 2
 deeeight, i think like a lot of people who become mods, you have over-inflated your importance here. i read earlier you've only been a mod a short time, yet you are making statements like " And its been often discussed as to whether to keep the comment feature or not". how would you be privy to these conversations before you became a mod a month ago? And what say would have in it?? most likely zero

double ellsworths sales because of these comments here? lol, i think not. where does your data come from? pinkbike isn't that important or influential.
  • - 3
 My data on the sales comes from a reputable source. As to what's been discussed before... mods have access to the mod forum... and well.. I can't speak for other mods but I like to read past discussions, especially since its in the new mod intro that pretty much everything you could possible ask about doing the job, has been discussed before. As to your claim PB ISN'T that important or influential... they're important enough that brands provide them stuff for review.
  • + 4
 the important thing is they are important enough to get stuff to test because of the site users. not the mods or the site owners. the users.

the people you feel should be muzzled, are the reason this site is relevant. not you. not richard cunningham. the 600000+ users of this site. try not to forget that part when you attempt to ridicule a poster about having a job or not and whether they think a $3500 frame is overpriced or not.
  • + 9
 @deeeight You seriously have done a disservice to my impression of this site. I don't think you fully understand how important it is to maintain respect for PinkBike readers. Not to mention you could have brought people over to your line of thinking if you had just framed it in a more respectful way. I moderate reddit.com/r/nootropics, so I understand the frustration that can arise from comments at times. However, it takes showing respect to receive it back. Sure I get upset and start typing snarky responses to people sometimes. I don't ever actually post them, though. Being a moderator means being the face of the site. Putting your own frustrations and ego over the best interests of the site is exactly the opposite of what you should be doing.

Even your good points are now shrouded by your lack of tact. The fact that your are still arguing Ellsworth's benefits, or PinkBike's demographics, proves you really don't understand what this disagreement is about. Arguing the legalities of free speech on an internet forum? Saying that readers should just shut up and look in the mirror before posting, because this is a FREE site? Pardon my honesty, but you have no business being a moderator of this or any site.
  • + 5
 FYI deeeight/PB etc. - Pinkbike earns money selling advertising - that's what you do. And you only get that advertising dough because people read your posts. To my mind, you therefore have a responsibility to be objective, and not to bend to any specific point of view. Unfortunately the below comments have made it clear the PB is nothing but an apologist for corporate interests:



"Do you even the slightest idea how much it costs in tooling alone (nevermind the materials) to build a full suspension frame? Just the up front costs. I'm sure these new all-carbon models are running the company 100k in production start up costs. I don't begrudge them in wanting to make that capital outlay back in as short a time as possible.

Perhaps I should have gone with a more childish first response and said "can't afford one? sell a kidney". That's the usual sort of stupid statement that gets positive results on here."



You clearly do not have any interest in the larger ecosystem of consumers or distributors in the MTB universe, and you are not open to intelligently discussing issues with people who CARE about this sport, people who take time out of their day to voice their opinion about recent developments, PEOPLE WHO HAVE INVESTED DECADES OF THEIR LIVES INTO MAKING THIS SPORT WHAT IT IS. Instead, you'd rather alientate us, tell us we're poor, or that we don't know any better.

Shame on you.

In any case, I'm sure you'll be happy to know that you won't see my posts on this site, nor will you count my 'hits' to your posts. Good luck!
  • - 3
 Why does everyone think their opinion is so important, and that they have a right to express it in whatever form they want to? qbert, you seem to riled up about this. If you can't afford this bike, why is it important to let everyone know you think its too expensive? Why is your single opinion on pricing so important that you MUST tell the world what you think? Contrary to what your teachers and mother told you, your opinion is NOT important. This applies to all of the people posting their uninformed opinions. YOU AREN"T THAT IMPORTANT!!! Its a pain in the rear to sift through all the drivel to find the comments that are helpful. What a waste of time.
  • + 2
 If no one cares what we think and we aren't "special" and "gifted" enough to even discuss a new bike. Either don't waste your own time reading the comments or get rid of them.

Otherwise, agree to disagree.
  • + 0
 This thread is drunk, time to go home. Think of all of the time we've wasted over some fugly Ellsworths. Wow.
  • + 2
 The problem is that this isn't a discussion. There are a umber of people posting irrelevant information about the bike. Such as their opinion on geo and price. The geo is appropriate for the intended purpose, and the price is consistent with Ellsworth's market. Don't like it? Don't buy it!!!!! It is a great fit for the intended market, so it doesn't matter what you want or are willing to spend!!!!
  • + 2
 lol @willie1. why don't you spout your opinion that the geometry is "fine". i guess your opinion is the only important one. who says the geometry is ok for its intended purpose? you? why is your opinion on its price and geometry correct? actually the market will decide and since i haven't seen an ellsworth on the trails in years, i believe the market is speaking pretty clearly
  • + 3
 @all

cannot speak about Ellsworth since 2011 but I used to work for their UK distributor and can say in the 5 years previous to leaving their employment in 2011, we did sell ALOT of Ellsworth into the UK market - mainly the Epiphany and Moment

they were always very well received in the UK magazine reviews, even when put up against "big brands". Customers seemed very happy with their bikes, and we are not talking about wealthy coffee-shop cruisers, but proper trail riders out there in the rain, mud and snow, who bought their frames or custom builds with their hard earned money!

admittedly the ICT design did look dated, and some customers have had genuine gripes with Ellsworth warranty in the past, but the bikes always rode well (even if the geometry was not as advertised) and were seen as very desirable in the UK
  • + 3
 I hate to que in on such a long rant, but i have to agree pinkbike comments have gotten worse and worse. One unfunny joke can echo for literally months if not years on these comments...
  • + 1
 My opinion comes from knowledge gleaned from designing and building my own frames, as well as owning over 20 different bikes over the years. For trail riding, slacker than 68 hta ( with other complimentary geo) presents too many compromises in neutral handling. My opinion is not correct, but the science and testing behind it confirms that for general trail riding, 69 HTA with 650b and 130-150mm travel is the sweet spot. It's a very versatile set of parameters. I have ridden several bikes back to back many times. Unless you live in the mountains, 67 hta is too slack.
  • + 6
 lol. it's "your" opinion and you have already argued people's opinions don't matter. so who cares what you think?

"This applies to all of the people posting their uninformed opinions. YOU AREN"T THAT IMPORTANT!!! "" lol, your own words
  • + 1
 Btw, I suspect elseworth actually has engineers, testers, and market analysys people. You think you know more than they do?
  • + 3
 So you're better and smarter than me. Have a cookie. I still like slack bikes. You don't. Agree to disagree.
  • - 3
 Uninformed opinions such as your regurgitation of marketing geometry is the problem.
  • - 1
 I like slack bikes in the mountains. For trail riding, I like neutral handling. I want an even balance of up and down for the terrain i ride.
  • - 2
 Firefox- what is the geo on your rockhopper comp disc?
  • + 2
 HA geometry on my Specialized Stumpjumper Expert Carbon 29'er hardtail is 71 degrees with my Fox 32 fork seems to work just damn fine for what I like to do, which is fast trail riding going up hills, along and then down hills in comparison, I spent a lot of time riding very slack freeride and downhill bikes very fast over rough terrain on several continents no complaints here about the geometry of my Stumpy
  • + 2
 71 degree HA. And you leave her out of this. She never hurt anyone. My Trek Scratch had a 66 and I pedaled that bike everywhere with a 180 mm fork and it never gave me problems. I can deal with a little wandering for the fun later.
  • + 2
 But I thought my opinions on what geo I like weren't important so I'm flattered you asked.
  • + 2
 Willie, you should have abandoned this argument a long time ago, if you do think people value their opinion too high, way too often, because you became what you ditch Slack head angle can be compensated by wider bars and slightly longer stem, then more importantly by standing pedaling... stats fetishists and lab rats - move along to fire-road-racing please
  • + 1
 @halijohnson et all.. Ok I will say now to everyone who will read it (before it gets negatived out of sight, which still gets read because then people open it again to see it - honestly as an aside, i think the prop system would be better if it didn't auto-hide comments) I would like to apologize to you and anyone else I offended on this thread. And in the future I'll try and post differently (ie more moderately/less condescending asshat). According to your profile you've been here 4 years thereabouts, and it'd be a shame to see someone who's not afraid to step up to someone like me and state their case go. I call out others BS and always have (for years here, and years on mtbr, regulars of both sites will know this) but I am not afraid to be called out on mine either. Thank you for calling me out. I hope you'll do so in the future if the situation warrants it. Also @crazyoldcoot... points taken and you're right I go overboard.

But trying to get back to topic of the discussion of the points of these bikes themselves I would like to respond to a comment you made earlier before things went off the rails.

"That headtube angle is perfect for slaying the crushed stone path on the way to Starbucks." hilarious. you just made my day. "

I think you could have written that another way, but to answer it, the head angle is appropriate to the sort of bikes they are and the riding they're intended to be used for, and the terrain for which they were developed on. Mountain bike geometry that works great one place though won't always work well someplace else. Also individual preferences vary to their own local trails and bike setup. I think most PB'ers do customize their rides to their own tastes.
  • + 1
 Sorry I screwed it up, what I was meant to say was: Lack of stability of steep head angle can be compensated by wider bars and slightly longer stem, then bad steering of slack head angles can be compensated by standing pedaling... if you want best of both worlds, big mountain stability and home trails snappy handling - there is nothing better than travel adjustable fork
  • - 5
 To address other poster topic comments....

@willie1 Tony Ellsworth himself was caught on mtbr's forums nearly ten years ago setting up dummy accounts to slag competitors and prop up his own products/service. At the time everyone could see the IP# of posters in the html source code for posts though which is how he was caught. Its would be naive to think that he was the only one to ever do that in the bike world though. I'm sure some of the trolls we get here are actually company staffers/designers.

@Firefox2551 et qbert2000... good point but more constructive less channeling of me maybe?

@all... the look of the bikes relates to the ICT design, they will always have long nearly parallel links. They're trying to line up the chain force line with a virtual point in space several METERS ahead of the front tire. Most designs pivot around some point in space that actually is occupied by part of the bicycle itself. Draw a line between the pivots of the upper and lower links of your 4-bar bikes (ie, not Kona's which are single pivot linkages) and you'll see this for yourself.
  • + 1
 Willie1 (6 hours ago)
My opinion comes from knowledge gleaned from designing and building my own frames, as well as owning over 20 different bikes over the years. For trail riding, slacker than 68 hta ( with other complimentary geo) presents too many compromises in neutral handling. My opinion is not correct, but the science and testing behind it confirms that for general trail riding, 69 HTA with 650b and 130-150mm travel is the sweet spot. It's a very versatile set of parameters. I have ridden several bikes back to back many times. Unless you live in the mountains, 67 hta is too slack."

Maybe you should post your data in the new Marin news release. Those guys aren't following the science and testing you quote. They're crazy. Running 27.5 wheels with unridable 67.5 degree headtube angle. Lol. Evidently you're not the next expert you think you are :0
  • + 0
 The kids think they need these numbers. Its just marketing. 67 isn't unrideable, it just gives up a lot of playfulness for a small gain in stability at speed. The Marin is marketed towards "enduro" which is for racing, rather than trail. Race bikes are meant to have more compromise in design for an advantage at speed. I don't remember the Marin article being a test, but an introduction. See how marketing works? You think it will ride better just because of the numbers. I rode the bikes, noted which ones worked well, then looked up the numbers. If you want to see a marketing bike, look no further than the Demo. All the numbers the kids want, but its a crap race bike. In a similar vein, MX bikes are super fast on a track, but they are lousy on trails. Too stiff, power is too abrupt so the manufacturers make detuned versions for trail. MTB will do the same over the next few years. Racing, and trail riding are too different purposes.
  • + 2
 But I think you hit it on the head Willie. Look at your and D8 age. There's a good gap between your gen and the newer gen( I'm between). I prefer a 67HA too on a long top tube with a short stem. It just feels right for my riding style. While you prefer the 69HA and says it's the best for your riding style. Different strokes for different folks?
  • + 0
 I like all of the geometry to work together, not contradict each other. I prefer longer top tubes and shorter stems, but I like the balance and maneuverability of neutral handling bikes. Who has ever complained about the handling of the mojo? That geo works well. I tried the marketing designs, and they are ok going down, but they suck going up. If you live where down is the priority, by all means go slacker. If you have to climb a lot, there are better options. I agree we should ride what works for each of us, but I do see a lot of posts on geometry that are just incorrect, such as claiming slack = better cornering.
  • + 4
 Lot of 'experts' in this thread. Weeeeeeeeeeee.

My enduro feels plenty fine with it's 'unridable' 'slow' 'marketing' 66.5 deg head angle. I must have not gotten the memo telling me to ride slower and to stop passing clowns on bikes with dated, slow geometry. For shame, I must really be ruining the faulty concept that head angles and geometry hasn't evolved since the 90s and that 69deg isn't steep and sketchy on FS trail bikes for people who actually haul ass. Maybe I should jack up my BB past 14" and trim my bars just over 12" to fit in because that's what worked once upon a time (yea, I'm old enough to remember). My CX bike has a steep head angle so maybe I should ride that to fit in.

Hell, my bike in the 90s had a 69deg head angle..... I still bombed down hills on it, but you know what, it was sketchy and not as dialed as bikes today. Using the Mojo as a comparison is erroneous. The 27.5" version that's actually comparable with 130mm of rear travel has a 67.1 deg head angle. www.ibiscycles.com/bikes/mojo_hdr650b#size
Every company has moved in this direction based on real work feedback from fast riders, realizing that it not only handles better, but offers better stability at speed. Rambling on about facts on 'geometry' without ever performed force vector calculations is a fools errand. Enjoy what works for you, but don't tell the world what works based on faulty information and opinion.
  • + 2
 Slack head angle inspires confidence and makes better use of forks suspension. For gravity oriented newbies (and any-gravity-one else) it is the best thing to get, period. If you give some rookie a bike with 68ha, or steeper, for a trip to proper mountains, you better give him extra rotors and brake pads with it - he's gonna be shtting himself!

Setting the HA under 67deg and raising the cockpit like it happens with 140+ forks, virtually turns the bike into a fireroad uphiller, it is damn ineffective to ride up a technical single track on such drunk flip floping donkey. I mean I get the dh factor of it, but people better stop pretending that it takes nothing from uphills alright? At the same time people who sit on their asses while manouvering through rocks and roots will find it hard to handle a head angle lower than 69.
  • + 3
 It takes a little from climbing, but these aren't XC race bikes. If they were, we'd be racing on XC race bikes Wink

The point of the trail bike is to make everything fun. You're right, a slacker (in comparison) HA makes the fork work better (think about where forces are applied in both scenarios), at a slight trade off. I will (as most people will) take a minor loss for climbing to gain a whole lot of stability for everything else, which is exactly what trail bikes were ment to be. Pump, jump, rail... then bobble your way back up to do it all over again with a smile on your face.

Again, XC bikes, and race bikes are an entirely different type of bike. THEN, and only then does the race to the top count more than the enjoyment blasting to the bottom.
  • + 0
 my beef is for 3500 you dont use a DMD . its 2013 get with the times
  • + 4
 atrokz - it depends where you ride. I am an advocate for bike tests and reviews to involve a lot of info on which kind of terrain the bike was used on. Location location location. On my trails I was lowering the Uturn lyrik to 130-140mm, because I live in NS Vancouver style rocky rooty terrain but stretched on max 300ft hills so I climb way too often in way too difficult terrain to live with such compromise. I prefer to compromise downhills a bit, even steepest and gnarliest stuff, for the sake of having a good fun ride all along the trail. If I was living in proper mountains I would probably always use fireroads for climbing to be able to bomb down on 6" bike with 180mm fork. Travel Adjustable forks is one of the best ideas ever, that can transform your bike in a matter of seconds from XC/Trail bike to mini-DHiller. But people prefer to talk sht about such forks... it is more masculine to ride with no travel adjust I guess...
  • + 2
 @atrokz, I like your thinking. I don't have an fs bike that's steeper than 66 degrees. I ride wide bars and a short stem with my chilcotin in the slack setting. I can't imagine riding my old 90s rocky element anymore. Times have changed. Geometry has changed. All for the better. If I raced xc I'd look at something lighter and maybe steeper as xc race courses aren't designed to be technically challenging. My old bikes us to be 71/73 head tube seat tube angles and they were hard tails. Bike geometry has changed to lower and slacker for a reason. Sure there are some extremes out there but the consensus sure hasn't hit on 68 degree plus as the full suspension standard. Maybe 5 years ago.
  • + 1
 We are talking about two different markets here. Like I said, gravity and race bikes need different geometry than trail bikes. The whole point here is the discussion over these bikes which are trail/XC and people are thinking they need 67HTA, which would make them ride worse for their intended use. I don't know how much simpler this concept could be. They even make a 67HTA version for those who want it LOL!!!

I ride in the foothills area between Rob and Cadomin Alberta. Look it up if you need to. I have ridden 67HTA and 69HTA (and in the past 71HTA.) I can tell you the middle ground is the most versatile. It isn't the best at descending, but I have to go up an equal amount for each descent. I don't shuttle. If I did, the Titus would be my first choice, not the Ibis.

The link above is the Mojo HDR- same category as the El Guapo and Rune. The SLR, which is the trail bike uses 69HTA. You are comparing apples to oranges. AM bikes work with 67HTA, trail bikes work with 69 HTA. 68 works with 26", 69HTA is better with 650b.

Waki hit the nail on the head here.
  • + 0
 My current Blur TR sports 67,5-68 with 140 fork, and I can uphill really steep and rock infested stuff on it, but as I mentioned, uphills are shorter. I uphill that on single ring, which in theory further compromises climbing, especially in wet. I could imagine coping with twice the elevation in same terrain on same setup but not more. It's because I stand a lot on uphills and bringing your CoM forward destibilizes the system and allows you to regain balance and some steering precision. When I put Lyrik on, with 160 and 1cm higher crown, which sends the HA to 66, I get uncomfortable even on downhill sections, speeds are simply too low to provided stability, and when I need steering precision on some wooden bridge, rock edge or off camber, it just does not work. But then when I took that to Hafjell, the Blur TR handled and went through rough shit better than my previous, shorter and steeper Nomad with more travel.
  • + 2
 The whole point of the comments bit is to get people returning to the same thread and therefore the website repeatedly. More hits, more advertising money.

Pinkbike will never bin the comments section because it needs hits.

Ellsworth will double their sales this month? So they'll sell eight instead of the usual four units? So they should be thanking me for commenting at all!
  • + 1
 Looks more of a clusterf#$k than anything. Mega Avalanche have the same issues too when things get tight. That pictures prove nothing.
  • + 2
 Hell no ! That one does... Same for trail bikes ! Frigging waste of space ! They blast ahead.. yeah they are fast on flat.. and when this stuff appears they walk or go snail mode.. rode it 3 times now.. and even as a non racer.. they give you lag in your flow and enjoyement ? Of the ride...
  • + 1
 Sorry Jhou, but if you're coming to PB comment threads for *proof* you might want to get checked out..... We come here to banter. This isn't law school.

That picture is a common occurrence if you have actually been either involved (I have) or watched (I have) UCI XC races. About half the field walk down steeps or anything technically challenging or, if you've been paying attention to the last UCI WC round, complain about berms..........
  • + 1
 warning...........the mods are drinking the orange cool aid
  • + 3
 Haha I own a Ellsworth and hate Starbucks. I would love to ride with half of you guy that sit back and bash bikes you've never been on before, showing your ignorance. My point is you don't have to like the way a bike looks but to publicly criticize and bash a company you know nothing about shows your level.
  • + 2
 hell, i know my ellsworth complete and i even have an ellsworth in the garage that my 13 year old daughter rides. tony ellsworth is hardly a role model for anyone looking at how to run a business. i personally miss his 110% efficient quote about ict suspension. i also miss rare earth carbon, it was made at the cleanest carbon plant in taiwan. i also miss the monks that used to hand build the ellsworth wheelsets
[Reply]
  • + 56
 I've always had great respect for ellsworth, they've produced some great bikes which I know first hand can stand the test of time... But they really do need to update the looks
  • + 2
 Ellsworth has stuck with a design that works. But I think that they could make the rocker a bit shorter though.
  • + 4
 I agree, that's the first thing I'd change
  • + 3
 He can't change the rocker length because that is a main component of ICT (Instant Centre Tracking) design.
  • + 0
 Sticking with a design that works is a bit of a silly statement, if I must say so. Bikes are fairly simple machines, which is to say, they all work and are all great for smiles, old design or not. aesthetics and old fashioned geometry aside, those things have a nasty reputation for breaking (carbon and alloy chain stays, freehub bodies) and the company has legendarily poor customer service. Their "American craftsmanship" claim to fame is meaningless if the product fails and customer service can't support it. It's been decades since American consumers cared more about "made in america" than quality. Ellsworth wheels ($900, only 24 POE and external rigs that fall off) might be the most overpriced item in the bike industry, and they certainly aren't made in the US.
  • + 3
 My buddy has a 2002 ellsworth isis, and he was talking to to company and they offered him $1000 trade in value to a new frame. That's customer service.
  • + 5
 I had a Dare on which the chainstay snapped (I couldnt get over how light the frame material appeared to be) but they replaced it free of charge and asked for no proof of purchase or anything. I did have to return it to them for inspection first but after that they just mailed one directly to me.

So yeah, I wouldnt trust the build quality of the alliminium frames but my experience with their customer service is not that bad. What I didnt like was when I put a complaint on their facebook page they blocked me along with a number of others. They are very self righteous. Ive met guys who work there at trade shows and they straight up admit that they are bhind the times on geometry and it's coming from the top that they have to persevere with the designs they use.
  • + 2
 I do think a change in leadership, or at least leadership thinking would work wonders for the country. My buddies isis from 11 years ago has the same geometry as the frame he could have traded for. I like the company, but I'll wait for a new owner
[Reply]
  • + 34
 2003 design now available in plastic.
[Reply]
  • + 32
 "Anisotropic Force Vector Carbon." I thought they'd never top "Rare Earth Carbon." Hilarious.
  • + 18
 "Anisotropic Force Vector Carbon." nah, I think it's Directionally Dependant Structural Composite, or Single Vector Resin Supported Fibre. Or maybe, just maybe, It's Toray T600 3k weave like everything else.
  • + 3
 ...the russian carbon copy of...

TORAYCA® carbon fibers, produced in a wide range of material properties, are specifically designed to meet your diverse and challenging applications.

...like one size fits all...pr-sh..t.

That Ellsworth is going straight to the landfill.
  • + 7
 It was a new word to me, so I looked up 'anisotropic'. It is more easily explained as being the opposite of 'isotropic', which describes a material whose strength is the same in all directions. Therefore anisotropic is a material that is stronger in a certain direction - like timber/wood, which has a grain.

So... therefore Ellsworth are doing the same thing that every other carbon manufacturer has been doing - laying carbon weave in certain direction (or multiple layers in different directions) to get more strength for less weight.

I concur with the above comments... it is all marketing B.S.
  • + 1
 Heh, they aren't winning any eco, fair trade folks either by using words "rare earth". Does Ellsworth get their carbon cloth from materials dug up Congo?
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  • + 33
 Jesus, ditch that rocker
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  • + 22
 ahem....deeeight.
people with jobs? I work my ass off and make about 200k a year and wouldn't dream of spending that kind of money on a frame. $3500 for a frame is STUPID. Things have truly gotten out of hand. And too be clear, I am not an "enthusiast", I am a fanatic. I ride everyday. hard. I read this site. everyday. My cash is better spent going to whistler or colorado for good riding than trying to impress my friends because my riding sucks. I live in Los Angeles and half the guys on the trails are finance sector d-bags who show up in Porsche Cayannes etc. with the latest carbon Ibis/Santa Cruz/Specialized S-works dream bikes and can't ride to save there lives. I used to work with one of these guys - he brought his $10k Ibis. To be a dick I brought my Redline Monocog fully rigid single speed. $500 complete. wore flip flops. schooled him up. schooled him down. he didn't know enough to be humiliated.
Anyway - you touched a nerve. All I'm saying is, if you spend that kind of stupid money on a bike, you had better be able to beat a fat old guy like me that works 60 hrs a week.
I feel better now.
  • + 4
 I get your overall point, but you're not proving much by schooling those guys. It's like a senior picking on a freshman.
  • + 4
 yeah. you're right. but a $10,000 Ibis with full xtr and carbon rims and the guy was acting like he was soooo cool. he couldn't even bunnyhop a curb.
  • + 2
 No substitute for earning the hours on your pedals.
  • + 4
 love it, Lmackall6. deeeight doesn't understand the concept of diminishing marginal returns. He might have a job, but not an education.
  • + 1
 although deeeights statement was ridiculous, i do have to say if i was earning enough money i would be all over an S-works "dream bike". it shouldn't matter what level you ride at as long as you're having fun, and some people just like to have fun on really nice bikes.
  • + 1
 Lmackall6 - I like your style. If people 'got it', they would spend their money on skills clinics rather than equipment. Or as you mentioned, spend the $$ to go ride somewhere different, outside their comfort zone.
  • + 2
 Seriously, who cares! No matter how much someone makes or what their job is (or if they don't have one) why should we care what they ride or how well they ride it?! If I made huge coin I would certainly spend some on a very gucci bike or tow or ten and there will always be people out there that are faster AND slower than me.
  • + 2
 Its not really that. Nobody begrudges someone else having a nice bike. We just don't like them being dicks about it.
  • - 2
 Oh but its perfectly fine for you all to be dicks to the bike companies that offer these bikes, simply for offering them ?

Pot...meet kettle.
  • + 0
 Companies aren't individuals. You need to give up feelings when you start selling things. And customers are always right, so obviously this bike is what his customers like. More power to them.

Besides, how is that the same? Giving your opinion on a product (Negative or Positive) Is not the same as showing up to a trail with your $8000 wonderbike and acting like a doucher.
  • + 1
 Look, it doesn't matter to me if someone shows up at a trailhead on an $8000 bike or an $800 bike... but here on PB, apparently any bike gets dissed if it isn't equipped with a 20mm axle, has slack as a cow geometry, and isn't intended to be ridden where there are chair lifts... or isn't a YT or Canyon. A month ago they reviewed the new GT Carbon Sensor and Fury models and even though the prices started at like $3500 people bitched/moaned/whined. And apparently on those bikes, the 67.5 HA still wasn't slack enough. Did anyone who's complained about the geometry of the ells above pay attention to when RC only talked about the Epiphany's 69.5 HA ? The Absolute Truth has an even steeper 70 degree HA. The other day we had several people slagging dirt on Sam Hill's riding/bike and then get suspended for their efforts. That's not the sort of image this site wants to keep having, yet day in/day out, mods have to police the members.

Nevermind the work we put in keeping the scammers out. I caught an account last week that linked to six other accounts, all scam for-sale ads and fortunetly it was before they took anyone's money. People can whine and hate me for being shall we say BLUNT, but that's because I don't fear calling out people on their kindergarden league bs in the news story comments, but i've also got the experience needed to catch the big league stuff that goes on elsewhere on the site.
  • + 1
 Isn't a Mod supposed to be almost unseen - and only step in when things get rowdy. D8 seems to want to foment violence and then step in and calm the waters. PB what have you done????
  • + 1
 Being a mod doesn't mean you have to turn off your brain and stop posting. If it did, they'd never get anyone to do the job.
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  • + 23
 Even the members from Zeppelin would say "Wow, that's an old rocker!"
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  • + 16
 HA HA HA HA HA SRAM X9 — $5,995 MSRP
Shimano XT — $6,995 MSRP
Shimano XTR —$8,995 MSRP
Frameset — $3,495 MSRP

HA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHA
  • + 10
 2000$ difference between XT and XTR? you get 2 full XTR sets for that.
  • + 4
 $9k for an Ellsworth or spend the extra grand and get a Bronson? I'm thinking Bronson!
  • + 3
 I just noticed the nut on the lower shock mount...priceless!
  • + 1
 The XTR bike gets other upgrades than just the drivetrain group.
  • - 1
 If I was spending $9,000 on a new bike, it sure as shit won't be on a super-flexy 4-bar, Horst-link bike. Looks like a pretty, carbon 2005 Kona Stinky.
  • + 1
 Its not a horst its an ict. Also what is your evidence its super flexy?
  • + 0
 And if you read the Path Analysis article you'll know that TE and co's patent is based on a poor understanding of physics and a lot of BS marketing.
  • + 1
 Of course it is but then so is EVERY US patented bicycle suspension design. Anti-Squat this, ICT that, its all just recycled decades old automobile race car suspension designs. But if you pay the fees and write a cute description the US patent office will pretty much rubberstamp any application. At one time, patent examiners were actual inventors also and knew sciences and engineering and so forth. Nowadays.... well...I used to know a guy who paid the several thousand dollars JUST to prove the stupidity of the agency and managed to get US patents for what essentially, after you read thru all the lawyer BS was "the wheel" and "fire". There's also a US patent for a fart powered missile launcher....

boingboing.net/2006/04/10/patent-for-fartpower.html
  • + 0
 evidence that it's super flexy? I owned two of them. new ones with the carbon stay and 142x12. Even with the "new" technology, Laying them hard into a turn would cause enough flex that the rear tire would rub against the shock stay. deeeight, you throw around "facts" like you're the arbiter of bike knowledge. ICT is a type of horst link. horst links are four bars with a pivot in front of the rear axle where the axle is attached to the shock stay. ICT certainly fits the bill. Have you ever seen it up close? The ICT patent has more to do with the way the virtual pivot point follows the chain force line. also, what other upgrades come with the XTR kit?
  • + 0
 A lot of bikes can lever a rear tire into the shock stay (or the chainstay) with these long link designs and others. My Salsa Spearfish does that. I hear it occassionally but I just ignore it. It doesn't affect my ride if I don't let it. And yes I know all about the ICT patent and what it refers to. See above about cute descriptions to the US patent office. That it was never granted international protection says a lot about how common sense other countries are with patent applications. There is supposed to be a basic test applied to all patents, world wide that an idea isn't patentable if any person of reasonable intelligence and knowledge of the subject matter being patented, could have easily thought of it also. And where to put a pivot in the rear suspension linkages, is pretty basic stuff, yet the US patent office has long since ignored that rule because they're dependant on fees for a good chunk of their budget. More fees = more budget.
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  • + 7
 You know, Tony graduated from my Alma Mater, and I've tried to cut the company some slack (tried to think of a HTA joke, but couldn't) but their marketing BS is getting old. "Zero Energy Loss"? Really? All it is is a horst-link FSR design.

Also, the front triangle doesn't look half bad until you see that home depot 35 cent nut holding the lower shock bolt in place.
  • + 0
 I seen that also. You think for 3500, he would get some hardware that looks more streamline.
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  • + 11
 ugly as hell
  • + 3
 I love that awful lower damper's mount in carbon frame for ca. $3,5k. Honestly - looks ugly, cost way too much and head angle is just stupid.
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  • + 10
 My Dad would love this........
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  • + 6
 They may look a little dated but I rode an evolve this past weekend an it blew away Santa Cruz tall boy, specialized epic, and giant trance. Those are just the bikes I've ridden extensively. For whatever reason they are quite incredible. Ride one before you comment so you re not an ignorant idiot.
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  • + 4
 I'm so old, I lusted after Ellsworths back in late the very early noughties. Looks are subjective, and I think they both look sweet, especially the Epiphany. Totally overpriced, well out of my reach, but since its a Mormon run company maybe it comes with two wives and entry to heaven?
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  • + 4
 $9000 carbon XTR bike and they couldn't find a better way to mount the shock than with a 20 cent Nylock nut??? Mabye sometimes the best solution is the most simple one, but if I'm shelling out that kinda cash for a "Boutique Bike" it better be exotic in every way.

I'll go buy 4 other bikes that I'll actually use. Thanksverymuch.
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  • + 7
 Front triangle is gorgeous. But, I just cannot get past the looks of huge rockers.
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  • + 3
 Not sure how they do it, but Ellsworth definitely takes the cake for being the must fug bike at Interbike once again! I've had a couple buddies ride them over the years, and after a season, they came to their senses. Evidently, their overhead must be pretty damn low, since they only need to sell a few bikes to stay in business. Maybe they should follow Kona's new design direction...
  • + 3
 I don't think their employees are paid.
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  • + 5
 For everyone who thinks the head tube angle is too steep, ellsworth also has an enduro version of the epiphany 275 with a 67 degree HTA. This is the XC version.
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  • + 3
 Well I have one - Epiphany SST.2 - so pile on. But as someone who actually rides an Ells all I can say is that I freakin' love it. And no I don't ride it on gravel to Starbucks but it soaked up the fantastic drops, boulders and stunts in Whistler and Squamish last summer pretty well! The suspension is so damned good. The only downside? When I let my Yeti-riding husband ride it, he won't give it back. Sorry to be so positive.
  • + 1
 I rode an older Epiphany around Bend for a day, liked it and the next year bought a new old stock Moment. Put a 36 and DHX air on it and took it to Whistler. Two weeks in the park. The Moment climbed quite well for a six inch bike and also felt like the suspension worked even when on the brakes. There's gobs of irrational hate toward this company, but ppl can't seem to separate the bike from the guy from the company from the d-bag they saw with one of these on their Porsche roof rack. My only compliant and why I moved on was that I thought other NW-derived bikes would be better in my NW terrain. To which I am as yet unconvinced. The 27.5 thing, whatever, but the couple of Ellsworth's I've ridden were very good...and capable downhill.
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  • + 7
 Nothing like a good Ellsworth post...
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  • + 3
 I might be the only optimist here today, but I was gonna give Ellsworth props for FINALLY making a bike that looked remotely good looking. I like the swoopy lones on the front triangle and the color schemes are great in my opinion. But i guess I'm a glass half full kind of guy.
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  • + 3
 Really deeeight? I do work a job 80 hours a week but theres no way I could pay this much for a bike my car cost one seventh of what my bike cost and its a 98 bmw! Most of us have jobs but bikes getting closer to 10k are crazy
  • + 2
 That's been the case for mountain bikes (road bikes are worse) for decades now though. In 1992 I bought I rocky mountain stratos, with the bar ends I got also the total with sales tax was $1507 CDN. It weighed 28 pounds, had a rigid steel fork on a straight gauge japanese made aluminium frame, and a deore dx component group with a smattering of Ritchey and house-brand Rocky Mountain labeled parts. At the time I could have bought a nice new VW Golf for $11k. As it was, my car was a used 1982 Saab 900 and that was maybe worth $2000. Most every bike in my collection costs more than you can get a decent used car for. But its economics of scale... a bicycle they'll make maybe a thousand examples of in the first year vs a car that was produced in the hundreds of thousands.
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  • + 3
 Haha wow, so much hate. I must be the only one who likes these frames!? Could never see myself riding one because of that price, but I wouldn't turn one down if it was a little cheaper...
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  • + 2
 Ellsworth is a very underrated company... Although these bikes aren't extreme competition for top brands like Specialized or Trek, these guys know what quality means! I would own one of these in a heartbeat if I had the chance.
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  • + 2
 Wow not only have Ellsworth been making the same design bike for the last 20 years the've finally made a carbon bike given the carbon a overly complex name and still kept the same design. Really Ellsworth get with the times.
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  • + 2
 don't knock ellsworth as a company. its just tony ellsworth who's the one full of his own crap. lies upon lies is what you get when you deal with him. i would buy a turner or santa cruz built in himalayan mountains before i would buy anything from him and the shell of a company he's got.
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  • + 6
 I'm surprised they still use a clamp front derailleur.
  • - 2
 Surprised they still are using a clamp derailleur..... I think that is the least of their worries.....come on look at that outdated design....like really?
  • + 0
 I felt like commenting on the price, the outdated suspension and overly steep geometry would be too easy. There was a time when boutique brands were the only source of great specialty bikes, especially around southern BC. But that just isn't the case anymore. If I was going to spend that kind of money on a bike, compare this to an S-Works Enduro. Case closed.
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  • + 6
 69.5* HTA with a 150mm fork?
  • + 41
 Imagine how steep you will be able to get it with an angleset
  • + 7
 Shh, don't tell Tony he's behind the times, in fact, don't talk to him at all, you'll regret it...
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  • + 6
 Best bikes ever. I will smoke all of you little punks on my Ellsworth!
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  • + 1
 Wow!! with all these negative comments - I have to wonder who here has actually ridden an Ellsworth in the past 3 years to actually have some sort of validity to their negativity. It would be like me talking trash about a Santa Cruz - Never rode one so I have no business commenting negatively on their design, build, or handling abilities. I own two Ellsworth Bikes - A truth and a Method and I have to say they are by far the best bikes I have ever ridden. Ive been riding since I was 16 - Im 36 now - so for 20 years of riding and being on a quite a few different manufactures bikes I can say My favorite bike is Ellsworth. They had their issues in the past but the past is the past and it is all about what they are doing now. They have turned that past into a learning experience.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 i dig it. Ellsworths have always run steep head angles, But the ICT isn't BS, its just as efficient at any ride height so you can just sag more in the back to slacken the angle, or run a bigger fork. I have an older ID (predecessor to the epiphany) and i just tossed a 160 on the front and a dropper post and its stellar. super efficient and decently light for a 6" trail bike. I would definitely consider a carbon 650b epiphany, 3500 is only ~$750 more than their AL version. I'd probably still go aluminum though.
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  • + 2
 The bike must have something going for it 268 comments and counting. The peeps that buy this bike will have something original with exquisite attention to detail. The rest of us see an ugly bike................interesting.
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  • + 4
 27.5.......Soon, it will all be over for us 26ers. Stock up now ladies and gentlemen.
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  • + 3
 How are these clowns still in business!! No thanks, why would you even think about this when you can buy a Bronson frame for $700 less...
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  • + 4
 They don't seem to hold up on the trails in BC.
www.pinkbike.com/photo/10105303
  • + 2
 I would love to hear the story behind that. Such a weird place to crack.....
  • + 6
 Well, on the bright side, the Head angle is steeper now.
  • - 1
 Looks like the damage you get from the ....

"I was just riding along..."

and then cased the landing.
  • + 1
 oops, I meant slacker...

deeeight - you insinuated I didn't have a job before. Is Moderator your job? I assume so, since if you were at a real job, it wouldn't go over so well that you spend all of your time replying to comments.

If you got rid of the commenting, no one would look at any of the 29er posts on this site.
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  • + 4
 I know people usually dont like these, but I think it looks great. But i spose its all in the ride.
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  • + 1
 This bike kicks serious butt. All the naysayers obviously never rode one or think it's going to ride like a downhill bike or a featherweight xc bike. It leans towards a trailbike. I've gone through 10 bikes in the past year, all different makers, various travel from short xc to 6" trailbike state of the art 650bs with all the bells and whistles. Was recently at a mtn bike festival and demo-d about 6 different bikes. I thought I loved the Niner Rip 9 RDO, until I rode the Evolve carbon. Incredibly agile, got some air time, suspension disappears underneath you, the thing is like a magic carpet. Don't mock the "look" of the big rocker arms or that it's made overseas like EVERY OTHER CARBON bike out there. I bet no other company can claim that their owner has an apt next door to the overseas factory so he/she can oversee the manufacturing process like a hawk. But that's okay, everyone can say what they want, I'll be owning one shortly and grinning ear to ear out on the trails the whole time and you can all post jabs at Tony Ellsworth and overseas manufacturing and so on because you'd rather do that than ride your bikes that don't feel like this baby. I'd rather ride the small company's bike that has had the same suspension design since day one, BECAUSE IT WORKS, and has extreme quality and an owner who puts his name on his product and makes sure it's primo, than buy a main stream mass produced bike that every 3rd rider on the trail also owns. Nuf said
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  • + 1
 Just food for thoughts. The Tallboy LTc has 69.6 degree head angle and it is one of the most versatile 29er out there. Even if CG can ride a tricycle better than we ride dh, he sure makes the Tallboy LTc looks like a fun bike!!! Ride one first. Doesn't appeal to me but...
  • + 1
 The Tallboy LTc has 29 inch wheels.
The Solo, which has similar travel and 27.5 wheels has 68° HA...1.5° slacker.
  • + 3
 Oups! My bad... Should have read the articles instead of the hilarious comments!
  • + 0
 No worries. This kind of circus is usually reserved for 29er related BS...this was unexpected entertainment. We even have a clown...(you know who you are)
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  • + 1
 Biggest issue is the Geo especially the Epiphany must be at-least 2 deg steeper in HA than anything else on the market, GEO from the 90s.

Ellsworth has updated everything but looks and GEO all still stuck in the 90s and totally agree, 70+ year old Porsche or Ferrari owners will love these bikes!
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  • + 1
 That's not carbon Ellsworth. What you've used there is some sort of pure ugly, woven and coated with some kind of uglyresin. I'm all for function over form, but honestly, who even buys these things?
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  • + 2
 Hilarious debate. Has anyone ridden one? If it rocks, we will all be buying it, if it sucks not so much. Until then, armchair blog debate on.
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  • + 2
 "the new Carbon XC 275 utilizes proven ICT suspension to provide zero energy loss, fully active travel." Hooray for conservation of energy
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  • + 2
 Finally a proper sized seat tube, but what is up with the clamp on derailleur
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  • + 3
 how is this company still going
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  • + 1
 69.5 HA? are these bikes made to just be gently spun uphill, then tentatively pointed downhill whilst grabbing the brakes the whole time..... or to be RIDDEN!?
  • + 2
 ellsworth know that their buyers tend to be at the old, rich and untalented end of the spectrum, you don't need slack head angles for canal paths and riding to the shops.
  • + 0
 Some of us old guys don't need geometry band aids to make the riding too easy. Btw, I don't own an elseworth.
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  • + 1
 I'm sorry but Ellsworth has lost me completely. These bikes aren't meant for me so I don't care. But seriously Ellsworth get with the times and slacken that head angle.
  • + 2
 Btw They need to slacken it on their more trail/AM/Enduro oriented bikes not on these bikes, since their for XC.
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  • + 1
 Worst Carbon bikes I've ever seen! I would say that they are the worst all-time bikes I've ever seen but their Aluminum bikes are even worse!
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  • + 2
 Antiquated. No innovation what so ever. Who the frick is gonna drop $3500 for that ugly a$$ frame?
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  • + 2
 looks like an old kona to me.
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  • + 1
 My left kidney is for sale in the "BuySell" section... then maybe i can get the frame
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  • + 1
 The old saying- There is an ASS for every seat!! Have at it! Smile Ugly is only skin deep.
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  • + 0
 I want to say this bike is unique, but it looks dated and ugly. At that price for a frame, they should at least, make the rocker carbon. Cable routing is also sloppy.
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  • + 0
 I REALLLLY want to go up to the guy behind the bike and who decided on a $3,500 price tag and slap him across the face and tell him not to do it again
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  • + 1
 This was a perfect time to push forward the design, you know lower slacker etc. They look fuuuuuggly
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  • + 1
 What's up with mfg not providing frame weight? Does carbon vary that much?
I even clicked the link provided for more info...
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  • + 1
 Honestly. With all the amazing bikes on the market why the hell would you buy one of these?? Styling from an old Kona!
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  • + 3
 Kill it with Fire!!!
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  • + 2
 the only thing i like is their new stickers
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  • + 1
 oh dear. I don't think this is going very well at all. I think everyone is losing. Especially Pinkbike.
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  • + 1
 $3500? You got to be kidding!
When that colossal P.O.S. snaps in a month you better have "2 JOBS" to buy something else.
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  • + 1
 Lite speeds frames are about the same price but in cdn. I'd hate to see what the cdn comes too with these frames.
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  • + 1
 Maybe PB should run a survey on Ellsworth owners. Let the owners speak. Bury this thread.
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  • + 2
 69.5 HTA????????!!!!!
Hahaha!
WTF?!?!
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  • + 1
 I dont get why people are going nuts over a 3500$ carbon bike.. Treks selling a session park alumnium frame for 4600....
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  • + 2
 moving on something "ellsworth" more than this crap.
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  • + 2
 I feel bad for Ellsworth. Too much hate here.
  • + 1
 People have been saying this stuff for years, Ellsworth just never listens. Thats fine though, its his company and he can run it into the ground if he wants.
  • + 1
 why feel bad for a liar.
  • + 1
 Besides being an Ellsworth dealer in the mid-90s, I was a regular on mtbr when Tony was almost weekly making some goofy statement about how MBA loved his bikes, or how he stood behind the lifetime warranty (which he advertised at the time) so yeah, as I said previously in this thread, I'm no fan of ellsworth due to past business practices. They ride well but I PERSONALLY have got better places to spend my money. Others are entitled to do what they want when it comes to bike shopping. The price and geometry and layout of the bikes above don't bother me at all though. If Cube had released these bikes, I'd happily look at buying one but there's no cube dealers in canada that I'm aware of (and that's what kills me in laughter having to reply to comments from others complaining about the layout of the suspension... CUBE uses the same design, and people never whine when they do it...).
  • + 1
 That's the point. CUBE looks much better and a stacker HTA.
  • + 2
 Hard to compare this bike to say a Cube Stereo...they're not the same travel type of bike and Cube doesn't have a 140 or 120mm travel 650B model using the walking beam design. Ellsworth does have the Epiphany 275 Enduro though which is a 67 HA.
  • + 2
 Ellsworth has never been able to get the geometry right, starting with the ID back in the 90's, which was a 6" travel bike with a 70 degree head. It felt like you were perched on the thing. Their newer bikes that I've tried feel exactly the same. This is how Tony wants the character of his bikes to be, and so be it. Some folks out there must like it. The shop I was associated with dropped Ellsworth because Tony and their customer service were a nightmare to deal with. And their prices are outrageous, but they have always been positioning their bikes as "premium".
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  • + 2
 I didn't know they made carbon bikes back in 2003
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  • + 2
 kona stinky xc version....
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  • + 1
 Just when I thought mountain bikes couldn't get any worse...
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  • + 1
 This thread was brilliant to read.
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  • + 0
 What is up with that ugly back triangle? Or should i say square... something?
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  • + 1
 Ellsworth Truth : truly unworthy... what else??!
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  • + 1
 its time to scrap that long ass link arm
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  • + 0
 Not only are their bikes terrible..But 1995 called, and wants all that Loaded stuff back too..
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  • + 1
 Front ends look ok but that rear looks shit (and always has)
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  • + 1
 Oh my God................
3,500 for the frame ?
Are you CRAZY ??????
  • + 0
 its quite typical for such a limited production volume bike. Also the prices quoted are full MSRP... there's always room for dealers to sell for less to their preferred customers. Its also a first-year version of this particular frame so they're probably seeking to recoup their up front tooling costs as quickly as possible.
  • + 0
 Their costs don't matter. Price is the outcome of supply and demand.
It's a business model that's based on the concept that customers will (eventually) pay the same price as they would've payed for the competition's products but feel like they payed less for a "higher value" product (when in fact it's not).
  • + 0
 Lets dispense with this "tooling cost" nonsense, shall we? The reason why Ellsworth (and everyone else) go to Taiwan with the carbon frames is to minimize this up front cost since all of the carbon frames in the world come from the same 2-3 places there (and 100k isn't that much, and I doubt it was even that much), and the cost of labor is cheap enought to offset any tooling that is needed. Ellsworth has always been expensive. This is their pricing strategy to meet whatever their margin targets are (I'd say high), and based on their volumes. They have a target demographic that is willing to pay also, so why would they ever change their pricing strategy?
  • + 2
 @SlowdownU

something to understand about tooling up for a proprietary design in Taiwan or China, is that you manufacture a mould tool for each frame size or design you intend to manufacture. This is not cheap to produce.

the exception is smaller companies using "open mould" frames which are not proprietary, but a generic product the bike manufacturing company offers to anyone who wants a carbon fibre frame. Small detail changes are possible, but generally limited to bolt-on dropouts, cable guides, head badges and graphics (decals).

Structural change is limited to the specification of the carbon/resin and layup schedule but the outward physical appearance cannot change because of the open mould itself.

A good example is "Vitus", an legendary road brand purchased by behemoth "Chain Reaction Cycles". Their 'Sean Kelly' signature model is using an open-mould frame because its just too expensive to produce their own moulds. They have commented that if this is successful, in several years they will product their own tools.

Currently they have a consumer model made using lower modulus CF(comfort) , and a pro model for their sponsored riders using a higher modulus CF (stiffness), but using the same open mould tool.

the labour in Taiwan and China is not as cheap as you imagine, for example the Class A1 factories in China received a Government approved 19% pay increase in January 2013. An experienced welder in Taiwan working on bike frames can easily earn US $25,000, and their cost of living is considerably more affordable

the reason bike company have their manufacturing done in TW and China is because the skilled workers are there in high-tech factories which have the capabilities to undertake this work. TW and Chinese made (quality, not knock-offs) frames are not actually that cheap to produce.

Domestic manufacturers like Devinci, Santa Cruz and Ellsworth were forced off-shore to TW for carbon fibre because it cannot be done on a commercial scale on-shore.
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 I find it hard to believe that any bike manufacturer in Taiwan is paying someone on the floor $25k. In addition to the labor being cheaper, raw material supply is also cheaper. I understand that unit molds need to be made, but lets be real, this is what they do there. Ellsworth's shapes are also pretty ordinary and not complex. Plus I'm sure they amortize these capital costs into their piece price till they're paid off. They charge too much, period. Even other "boutique" brands, like Turner for example, don't charge this much, and for a more modern design.
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 How do you know this SlodownU ? Why would the raw material supply be cheaper ? How do you know what they pay someone to build bikes? What's your background expertise ?
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 One of the reasons you go to Asia is to also take advantage of the supply chain. Most carbon fiber manufacturers happen to be there as well (some in Germany). Why do you think Boeing makes the wings of their Dreamliner there? The really high-end stuff comes from Japan though. Most carbon bikes from the East are manufactured by a very small group of enterprises there who have acquired the expertise and tooling to make bike frames, among other things as well. I doubt a small-volume company like Ellsworth is going to build a ground-up manufacturing facility to make carbon frames. That probably costs more than their yearly net, and then some.
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 @SlowdownU

thanks for your input into the conversation. the World is changing and many of us with a Western focus find it hard to understand the shift to Asia in terms of high-tech manufacturing skill sets and wage potentials

skilled welders and CF technicians in TW and China make good money, because its a skilled trade with plenty of customers willing to pay for the skill set of these workers.

something to understand about carbon fibre is that there are only 3 factories in the world supplying the raw material, these factories include Toray and Mitsubishi (both Japanese)

the price of the raw CF does not really change depending on the supplier because each spec. is made to the same quality; and the quality TW / Chinese factories all use the same material in their CF layups.

The price of CF changes according to Global demand from aerospace / military with sports equipment coming somewhat down the list...the raw material is in short supply as more industries switch to it, which drives price up. As an example, a bicycle brand I work with used to charge US $600 for a "cost" frame, its now US $1000 within 2 years.


There is not someone "cheaper" to buy this raw material from unless it has been damaged by mis-handling and written off, or sold as off-cuts pieces (then re-sold), which is what happens too many times with the "fake" frames you see cheaper on Ebay and Alibaba Express


the price difference on the good quality (undamaged) raw materials depends on the quality / specification of the material, these 3 factories produce different levels of CF, but none are "cheap" and its a time consuming process to do a good layup

the "rule of thumb" for CF frame production is once you go over approx. 500 units / frame size, it becomes more affordable than welding aluminium alloy tubular frameset
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 That linkage is not pretty -_-
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 That linkage is horrible, no thanks
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 absolutely uglyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
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 ahhh, my eyes are burning!!
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 Dam. Thats ugly.
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 Ellsworth needs to seriously update the look of their frames. Yuck.
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 please dont be 29ers, please dont be 29ers ... oh ... there 27.5's -_-
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 all I can say is these bikes look extremely dated and unless Tony Ellsworth has changed his quality control,i would stay away.i had an ellsworth dare once,the bearing seats in the swing arm were powder coated and when you replaced the bearings the powder coat came out with bearing, the new bearing went in without any press fit extremely loose actually.lots of bearing retainer compound from Loctite fixed that because Tony didn't want to hear about it,a month later the seat tube to BB weld failed catastrophically,meaning 6" of my seattube popped out and lay on the groud next to me.once again tony didn't want to hear about it. $3200 in the toilet.expensive yes,boutique bikes they are not.
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 woooooooooah...ugly
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 Boutique? not anymore .
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 shit....crap...poop....Ellsworth trying to polish an old terd...
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