Pinion Gearbox Production Version - Eurobike 2012

Aug 29, 2012 at 21:00

Aug 29, 2012

by Matt Wragg

Pinion's production version of their bicycle gearbox was shown to the media and public during the demo day here at Eurobike. We've been following it's development since we first spotted it at Eurobike last year, and we were impressed when we got to ride one a few months ago. After several years of testing and refinement they are now confident it works they way they want it to and it will prove reliable out in the wild.

While on the outside it may look very similar to the pre-production version we tested, Pinion tell us that the internals have been massively overhauled. One of the things they discovered with the prototypes was that if the the bike was left on its side oil escaped through the cable entry point. To solve this problem they have added an additional layer of shaft sealing to make sure everything stays inside and not all over your garage floor. The freewheel ratchet has been re-designed to offer more accurate shifting and make the issues we noticed about shifting under load less noticeable. Shaft bearings have also replaced the sealed bearings. Up until now the gearboxes only used CNC'ed cranks, but a forged option is now available.

On the outside there isn't anything to separate this bike from the pre-production version we tried on an Alutech Fanes earlier this year.

Alutech with Pinion gearbox non-driveside.

At the shifter you can notice a few refinements, but these are only a small tidying up of the graphics.

Mi tech with belt drive and Pinion gearbox driveside.

Mi tech with belt drive and Pinion gearbox non-driveside

We genuinely don't know what to make of this Mi:tech bike. A Pinion gearbox mated to a carbon belt drive is something we've seen discussed a few times as the next progression of drivetrain technology. We aren't so sure though - to make the system work there must be zero chain growth as the belt needs to be under constant tension. To achieve this, Mi:tech have resurrected something that we thought had died out along with the Hammerdance and Global Hypercolour t-shirts: the unified rear triangle. For anyone too young to remember these bikes in the 90s, the premise is simple - the bottom bracket is on the swingarm and the whole assembly moves about under the bike. What this means is that the bottom bracket isn't in a fixed position in relation to your hip and they died out (we hoped) some time ago. Having said that, we haven't spent time on the bike so maybe it will be a triumphant return for the URT. Or maybe not...

www.pinion.eu

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129 Comments

Score Time Who Faved

+ 66

cthorpe (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:18)

looks extremely promising. I believe gear boxes will be the future if bike drivetrain. its good to see a company out there going for it, as someone needs to. maybe you'll start to see them often, on your local trails in 3 to 5 years.

+ 18

cikudh (Aug 29, 2012 at 22:14)

yess... i'm sick tuning RD, broken RD etc...

fr3er1d3r (Aug 29, 2012 at 23:05)

Cool! Looks like this company is pushing some of the newer things that you don't see on most bikes. Good luck to you guys Smile

fullyloaded (Aug 29, 2012 at 23:41)

I was seriously thinking about getting a alutech fanes frames but with 3000e only the frame its way to expensive ok you have like 40 000 km waranty on the gearbox but you can only service it where you buy it. also nicolai is experimenting with that pinion gearbox system I think it´s a great idea but it needs some time to establish in the bike world or a bigger company like specialized to improve the developement speed of that kind of transmissions.

cikudh (Aug 30, 2012 at 0:39)

more importantly... serviceable at home, like cars just change engine oil

bigbluebike (Aug 30, 2012 at 4:44)

if you can put it together, you can tear it apart and fix it. I think with a bit of technical know-how you could change the oil/adjust the gearbox with no real issues.

mazze (Aug 30, 2012 at 11:22)

@fullyloaded:
At first I was thinking the same thing about the price... but you need to realize, that the production cost of this extra-pinion-frame are not to be sneezed at... and the quantity of frames to be sold are significantly lower, since it's still a niche product.
In respect to that, it's obvious that the price has to be considerably higher in order to get the costs in... especially since the pinion gearbox alone retails at what.. 600€ ?!

mackdaddy55 (Aug 30, 2012 at 19:10)

I am with bigbluebike on this one. The only part that I find "unattractive" about gearboxes is the mystery of what lies within. Having information on how these gearboxes work and how to service them would make them more user friendly, especially for all those DIY riders/mechanics out there. That and I feel that grip shifters should be illegal. All in all a very clean looking set up, I like it.

fullyloaded (Aug 31, 2012 at 0:17)

I understand that a little quantity of frames makes the production costs not competitive.
To the service i didn´t mean a litle oil change, what youre doing when a gear jumps or if you can´t switch the gears anymore? you have to send the whole pinion gear box to germany to fix it.
otherwise the fannes frame is damm sexy for a gearbox frame especialy with the carbon rear triangle!

[Reply]

+ 16

groghunter (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:12)

throw an inverted X-fusion on front and Thompson dropper on it and we'll be set. Seriously, so much cool stuff coming out.

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+ 12

paulwatt (Aug 29, 2012 at 22:27)

On the second photo does it not look like the crank will smash into the cable entry assembly? It's gotta be an illusion, but I can't see how the non-driveside crank can rotate.

bigburd (Aug 30, 2012 at 1:23)

Well spotted dude , it may be due to the perspective but to me it looks like it won't be able to rotate either , can't be though surely?

TurboPune (Aug 30, 2012 at 2:57)

I think... whatever that piece is called that the cables routes into has been pulled out of the frame (so you can more easily see it I think). I'm sure it pushes back in so that it is flush with the bottom bracket cups if that makes sense. Either that or the cranks are angled! The cranks MUST turn somehow!

NoSkidMarks (Aug 30, 2012 at 4:57)

The cranks have a cut out to clear it.

TurboPune (Aug 30, 2012 at 8:32)

I see, makes sense!

[Reply]

b-mack (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:34)

Half the reason for going to a gear box design is to eliminate the damage prone derailleur. I don't see how that huge, dangling, tensioner in the front is much better. The old Honda RN01 had it right with a idler pulley system. Integrate that, and put it on a bike with a proper suspension design, and we might have a winner.

jaame (Aug 29, 2012 at 22:08)

I agree with you. They need to get the gearbox output shaft and the rear suspension pivot on the same axis so they can get rid of the tensioner. That, and make it work with Shimano or SRAM shifters so consumers have a choice of what to use. These in house twisters look shit to me. Gearbox is the way forward though. I'm all about this technology developing.

Ollie-J (Aug 29, 2012 at 22:59)

I'd love to be able to ride DH without having to worry about smacking my derailer on a rock, but I've heard gearboxes tend to be much heavier?

FunRunner12 (Aug 30, 2012 at 2:36)

Ollie-J : Yes, I think that's true. But the plus side is it reduces unsprung weight, so the suspension will be more supple. I would consider to have a gearbox on my bike if I have a fully :p

NoSkidMarks (Aug 30, 2012 at 5:01)

With the weight centered, and not out on a long leverage beam(swing arm), gear box bikes actually ride a lot lighter than their dead weight lift might suggest. Just weighing a gearbox bike isn't a fair judgement. Riding one is.

yetitribe6779 (Aug 30, 2012 at 8:57)

A chain tensioner might be easier to replace than a standard derailleur though.... the chain tensioner doesn't really have any moving parts...

hampsteadbandit (Aug 30, 2012 at 9:55)

if you look at the location of the front chain tensioner relative to the rear tire, its almost level with the tire, you would have to do something pretty weird to smash the chain tensioner as you would be hitting your tire,. but its a legitimate concern you guys raise?

they could look into a crank mounted bash guard (Lexan like E13) to add additional protection to the crank area so the bash takes the smash of a rock or log (especially on full suspension bottom out) rather than any risk to the chain tensioner

have to say though, this is EASILY the neatest gearbox design I have seen in years...best of luck to the team behind this development

jaame (Aug 30, 2012 at 22:16)

The reason I don't like tensioners is more to do with looks than worries about hitting them. Having a single constant length chain run looks clean, and if BMW-Husqvarna can do that on their trail bikes and motards, I don't see why it can't be done on a pushbike without any problems. It would make the bike so much cleaner looking, lower maintenance, and quieter. Chain life would be at least doubled and you wouldn't need to spend two days' pay on a rear mech to make your bike quiet.

Looking at the sifter, it looks like you currently need a pull-pull twin cable system to make it work reliably. That means Shimano and Sram shitters wouldn't work. That could give them a bigger headache than the tensioner thing. How do you get people to buy it when they hate twist shifters? I've been a die hard gripshift user for about 20 years and even I'm fully into triggers now as of about three months ago. I wouldn't consider getting a bike with some twisters on again now, especially unproven ones with loads of friction caused by having two cables.

NoSkidMarks (Aug 31, 2012 at 3:53)

Don't Motorbike tensioners have the chain runing over a nylon bush, and they're pretty much a concentric pivot so there's little chain growth. And create friction that isn't a consern when you have a motor?
An idler could be used, but again would create a touch more friction. I'd like to see a higher virtual pivot point with an idler there to negate chain growth and tensioners. Definitely not because of looks though, that's just crazy. Function before fashion. Chains on gearbox bikes last over 3 times as long than with a mech anyway, because they're not being rammed into other sprockets, or bent sideways constantly.
Grip shift has more benefits with a gearbox than a derailleur, as you can shift as many gears as you like cleanly, and quickly.
I like more friction on the grip shifter to make it more obvious. On my Nuvinci shifter, you can adjust the friction, and I run a more than less. Not sure how you put up with twit shifters with mechs for so long.
Opinions based on experience should be reserved until at least 1 hour has been spent ridding a gearbox bike IMO, otherwise your just selling yourself short, and spreading misinformation/ideals/truths. This isn't a criticism on Jaame, but more a comment to all with doubts on gearboxs. My only minor concerns with the Pinion is the closely spaced gears, great for XC, and All MTN, but might be a pest for descending or hammering. All depends on how obvious the clicks are for shifting two gears at a time. I suppose even if you shifted 3 when you only wanted 2, it's still going to be closer to perfect cadence than with a 9 speed mech set up. I should add that I'm used to and like the wide spacing on my Zerodes Alfine shifter. Might influence my concern some what. Most people will probably like the close ratios if coming from 9, or ten speed set ups.

jaame (Sep 1, 2012 at 6:11)

I am totally sold on gearboxes even having never ridden one on a pushbike. I took a trip to Hong Kong this year specifically to look at a Zerode frame. I love that bike, but I feel you can tell it's a MK1 because the width between the knees is too wide and the gearbox and main pivot axes are not aligned. I feel like they could achieve that if they wanted. I was also put off by the Alfine hub's wide range. I run an 11-23 9 speed setup and I wouldn't want to go for 11-34 or whatever the Alfine hub has. I await with great interest to see what Zerode come out with on the MK2. I kind of believe gearboxes will not gain any steam until Shimano or Sram get fully on board. Sram probably never will, they like selling you a new one of everything every year and that wouldn't happen with a gearbox. Most MX bikes have the gearbox output sprocket a few inches forward of the swingarm pivot, but BMW have recently started using a system which puts them on the same axis so there is no change in chain length. Check out the Husqvarna SM511 motard if you're interested. Also, VPP wouldn't work with an idler because there is no single pivot to run the idler over. However, I'm not sure if you could improve a VPP design in that respect anyway.

hampsteadbandit (Sep 1, 2012 at 11:23)

@jaame

here's the interesting thing about hub gears (which are sometimes used in gearbox frame designs), they definitely have a finite service life

recently, my commuting customer with 18 month old Shimano Nexus hub brought his bike in for service, was "slipping in every gear", was not the chain, chainring or rear cog as we quickly discovered.

Shimano received the wheel for service, and cannot service as the hub is completely worn out (I think their tech said something about clutch plates..) 18 months of life for a sealed hub and its toast?

I have customers with 4 year old bikes using derailleur gears that have started slipping....

customer is not too happy, as the Nexus is discontinued and he is looking at major $$ to upgrade to Alfine with wheel rebuild and new gear shifter, etc.

NoSkidMarks (Sep 1, 2012 at 16:55)

Jamie. Nobody seems to complain on the Zerodes with for DH use with 83mm BB, perhaps and All mTN bike might get some criticism. But you really don't notice it on the Zerode. The chain stays get touched more than gearbox. Not sure what you mean about the pivots not alined etc. But if you're talking about the gearbox output in relation to the main pivot. The it's meant to be like that, so there's a tiny amount of pedaling induced anti squat, to help make it a super efficient pedaler. Something that high pivot bikes already are as they have very little BOB. The range of gearing can be moved higher or lower with different sized sprockets, but the spacing between gears stays the same. For DH I'd rather not shift as often at the expense of slightly less perfect cadence, as I don't think it's that important for DH, I think more time is saved by not having to double shift, and I like a definite change in gears, not something that's much the same. But to each their own. An idler doesn't have to be mounted to a pivot. It can be place where a virtual pivot is. With a tensioner it doesn't matter if the virtual pivot point is not fixed but moving. It's really no different to normal drivetrain in it's effects on suspension.

NoSkidMarks (Sep 1, 2012 at 22:18)

Hampsteadbandit that's a pretty broad statement without having known the life and service history of your customers commuter. They may have done lots of miles on it, in the rain, jet washed it, and never serviced the hub or the cable tension. Used as a gearbox(frame mounted)an Alfine replacement wouldn't need a wheel built, and the costs would be similar to an XTR rear mech. Shimanno gear hubs done need an annual service(lube/grease oil change), it's pretty quick to do, and overall for a years servicing of a mech would take a lot less time. The chains and sprockets also last several times longer, as the chain is running straight, and not being twisted and rammed into another sprocket under load. I just saw a Zerode that was over a year old on the original chai that was only 50% worn, with a 110kg rider that also did trail rides on it, not just DH.
The 8 speed Alfine has a much stronger clutch system than the 11 speed.
But if you then talk about Rohloffs, that are reputed to last over 40'000kms(maybe miles) with a service(40ml oil change)anually or every 5000kms, or a Nuvinci that doesn't need servicing and is meant to also last as long, then your deraileur becomes a very weak and frail looking piece of dated equipment.I'm guessing the Pinion will have similer durability. And this is only taking durability into consideration, not all the other huge benefits of geared hubs or gearboxs.
My Zerode needed one barrel adjustment shortly after assembly to take up some cable stretch as it settled in, and then another barrel adjustment about a year later, and that and lube the chain, is the only maintenance it has needed on the drivetrain in over a year. I'll do the half hour oil change on the Alfine soon. But the new Zerodes now come with an oil port, so you don't even need to remove it or strip it if you don't want.

jaame (Sep 2, 2012 at 8:09)

I don't know much about it, but I thought the virtual pivot systems don't have a stable unmoving pivot location. You can't put an idler on a virtual pivot if it is controlled by two links and if it moves throughout the suspension travel. I have ridden a lot of friends' vpp bikes and I think they are better than anything else I have ridden in terms of suspension action. The V10 carbon, for example, is like sitting on a sofa going down over bumps. I wish they made a V6 or V7 and it was cheap.

Regarding the Zerode, they are just my observations from someone who has been interested in bikes, but not ever super immersed in the industry, for many years. It is definitely on my shortlist of next bikes to get. I love the looks, the gearbox idea and the high pivot idea. I don't like the bespoke nature of it. Everyone likes to changes bits here and there, it's a good way for me to hide money wastage from my wife, and I think that is more difficult with such a system. Also I don't like the gear range and certainly would never choose it over an 11-23 or 11-26. I always bang my knees on the top linkage whenever I ride my friends' Giant bikes (the main reason I didn't get one last year) and I think the same would happen with the Zerode. Still, I'd take it over anything else with the exception of the Devnci Wilson Carbon, which incidentally has the same design minus gearbox.

Gearbox is definitely the way forward. I would love to see Shimano get heavily on board with a DH targetted offering sooner rather than later.

hampsteadbandit (Sep 2, 2012 at 9:00)

@NoSkidMarks

thanks for your input, its good to open these discussions. The customer assured me they had simply commuted to work and back during this time period, and from the state of their bike it was obvious it had not really been cleaned, let alone jetwashed.

We get a lot of uneducated customers in London shops who literally commute and have no other interest in servicing or maintaining their bike. I agree about the annual service on the Alfine system, its basically an oil soak bath for the hub guts, in a bathing drum from what I understand?

your comments about derailleur systems are valid, but perhaps from a commuters point of view, a simple 8 speed derailleur system is going to be much cheaper to replace when it goes wrong?

We commonly do transmission replacements on these bikes (Trek, Giant, Specialized hybrids) its only £30 for Shimano triple 171 crankset with trouser guard, £25 for Alivio rear mech, £20 for 8 speed cassette and £10 for Shimano chain.

agree with your gearbox comments though for MTB riding, makes so much sense...

[Reply]

+ 11

SimonBros (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:07)

First one is sweet. Second one is Messed up!

xstrongyx (Aug 31, 2012 at 14:03)

agreed.. something is wrong about that second one... :/

[Reply]

troysks (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:04)

Starting to look promising! nice work looks less like a transformer and more like a regular bike

[Reply]

WAKIdesigns (Aug 30, 2012 at 0:16)

OZOM! Great that hey've made it! Finaly! First bike is really sweet looks convincing, convenient even though it seems that Spec patent dogs are waiting on US border I guess... fk them, fk patents! The second bike though is fugly

NoSkidMarks (Aug 30, 2012 at 5:03)

Isn't that Horst link patent over yet?

WAKIdesigns (Aug 30, 2012 at 5:59)

I don't know, all of such patents deserve to go to sht, it's not patenting - it's piracy of laws of physics. People brag about fkn Apps for SAG setting as being development and progression while big companies hinder people from design freedom, saying you can't connect the rear wheel to the front triangle like that! We paid to make it our own "intelectual" property! You pay us or we sue you! We don't give a f*ck if you need to make a 8 bar linkage to go around it!

That is fkn brake in progression to me. And there are very few convenient ways to make that connection

NoSkidMarks (Aug 30, 2012 at 6:05)

Talking gearboxs and patents. Honda came in, Patented the sh!t out of gearboxs, and left. I think Hayes bought the interesting Petespeed gearbox idea/Patent.

[Reply]

leelau (Aug 29, 2012 at 22:32)

Nice concept but good callout on the URT. I rode a RMB Pipeline a long time ago in the frorider days and rode an ancient restored Pipeline a few years ago and all I can say to that is that I thought URT's were good and buried. Props to Pinion for trying this though

LemonadeMoney (Aug 30, 2012 at 4:31)

Surely a pivot concentric to the bb would be a better option for short travel bikes?

DirtBag81611 (Aug 30, 2012 at 8:34)

URT died with the Y-frames of old...just remember, URT doesn't work when the seat is not weighted. Who wants their suspension not to work when you need it the most... bury that tech please!

minotro (Aug 30, 2012 at 10:25)

I disagree, I ride a Haro Sonix with a URT and I love it cause I can roll ss and full suspension. Check my profile for a pic. I ride mine all mountain, xc, flow track, on a pump track etc. I'ts super efficient and light weight simple. I get good traction out of the saddle too.

[Reply]

Insainee (Aug 29, 2012 at 22:38)

I think gearboxes are definitely the way forward, especially in downhill. I have a mate who rides a Zerode and its top shit

[Reply]

cfriesen (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:08)

I would like to see one in a demo frame.

[Reply]

kno0003 (Aug 30, 2012 at 1:24)

love the idea of the gear box, makes totally sense for downhill bikes or freeride styled bikes but for cross country I really think its not necessary just ads weight, more maintenance and they're really wasn't anything wrong with running derailleurs on cross country bikes not like its gonna get smashed up on single trails really

NoSkidMarks (Aug 30, 2012 at 5:09)

Lot less maintenance with a gearbox. Some more friction, but you can be in the right gear more often, so not sure of the balance/imbalance in energy output. The gearbox still no doubt looses out, but not as bad as you'd think I'd imagine.

dfiler (Aug 30, 2012 at 8:38)

Not mashing derailers on XC rides? You must not be getting your money's worth out of those rides.;-)

Around here people constantly get derailers ripped off by trees, sticks, stumps and logs.

[Reply]

Terryotomy (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:29)

The first bike looks pretty promising, but I can't get over the way the leverage is done on the rear suspension. It just seems like a lower-leverage design would be less abusive on the bearings and rocker. It must be expensive to use a normal Horst link or something...

NoSkidMarks (Aug 30, 2012 at 5:06)

Check out the Nicolais with Pinion also.
I was once told that Specialized charge$25 a bike for other brands to use the Horst link. That was a long time ago.

[Reply]

aaronr (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:20)

Even if some of the ideas and designs they are putting out now may not be the best or the future but it sure is a good start and i love seeing all this progress! Nothing wrong with trial and error

[Reply]

wakaba (Aug 29, 2012 at 22:03)

Nice.Way to go. Belt drives are a bit of hassle. They need perfect alignment or they selfdestruct. Not a given on a flexy bike frame or within the scope of your average bikeshop. Otherwise the xxo chain and front wheel might open up a venue for a simple tensionercog/spring assembly - this way all suspension designs can be used.

[Reply]

BDKR (Aug 30, 2012 at 5:28)

Based on the description of URT it sounds like what Mongoose has been doing for the past 5 years with the floating BB. They may have hoped and thought that kind of thing went away, but I seem to remember Pinbike giving the Boot'r a glowing report.

thedeathstar (Aug 30, 2012 at 6:51)

Sort of, but Mongoose doesn't use the floating bb as a way of getting rid of chain growth, so they won't have as much movement with the BB. This thing looks like it will have a wide arc to travel through, and seems weird.

BDKR (Aug 30, 2012 at 10:15)

Exactly! The system is supposed to help pedaling efficiency. Eliminating chain growth was a pleasant side effect.

[Reply]

dugglesthemuddled (Aug 30, 2012 at 2:57)

Right this pinion looks great but there are two problems.

1. Gripshift (why o why o why) there goes half your market.

2. Concentric crank and output sprocket means this bike is constrained in terms of suspension in exactly the same way as a derailleur bike. I.E. in order to have no chain growth you must have a crappy URT or at least a low pivot centre to minimize growth (and this still requires a chain tensioner and eliminates belt drives).

Pinion, redesing your gearbox with a trigger and a sprocket that is above the crank (like a G-boxx or the same configuration as the zerode) and you can have my money, but I would never buy this.

[Reply]

mblakely (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:44)

American Apparel still sells Hypercolour t-shirts under the name Thermochromatic

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freeride-forever (Sep 4, 2012 at 18:17)

Props to any company trying to make this long long long overdue step a reality. I think both of these bikes suck, but I still gotta give them huge cred' for doing something with an internally geared drivetrain. I really don't see why so many companies do it wrong, but they do. You put the suspension pivot around the BB, so you have a fully active system with no chain growth. It's not that hard. Rotec did it. Jamis did it. I know there are others too. URT's are so lame & you remove one of the greatest advantages of using a gearbox when you still have to have those stupid tensioners on there.

As far as the gearbox goes, disassemble a Rohloff Speedhub & examine it if you can't figure it out.

[Reply]

mozz (Aug 30, 2012 at 7:03)

I think a URT for a shortish travel 29er is an excellent compromise in terms of suspension and geometry performance. With the URT swing arm you get as short a rear end as posible to make the bike handel well in the twisty's. As long as the pivots not to high ala Klein mantra and a few of the old skool Ibis's, the suspension wont stiffen much when you stand and the BB movement wont be to bad, infact it could resut in less total pedal movement than some current designs which use lots of anti squat (the banshee legend II comes to mind as a bike that pedal kicked like a mule if in the wrong gear). Only the Germans could think of such logical anti fashion solution.

sam264 (Aug 30, 2012 at 8:23)

it's a terrible idea, the suspension only works when you're sat down...

mozz (Aug 30, 2012 at 9:04)

A; you clearly did not read what a wrote, and B; the suspension will likely only stiffen a small negligible amount its only bikes like the old Kleins Mantra's and Schwinn S series were the worse offenders for stiffening and entirely dependent on how far forwards and upwards the pivot is. At the end of the day its the only logical way the could do it with no chain growth. Taring all URT with the same brush is the same as taring all single pivots. There are some good example and some bad.

Tell me you wouldnt want to rip round the woods on this

www.wired.com/playbook/wp-content/gallery/handmade-bike-show/img_9719.jpg

Shock horror its a URT.

sam264 (Aug 30, 2012 at 9:16)

I did read what you wrote, and no, I wouldn't want to ride that, it's a URT. URT is ALWAYS going to detract from the suspension performance, no matter how you do it. And no, it's not the only logical way to combat chain growth, how about a concentric BB pivot? That's a far better idea. Or how about just not using belt drive and sticking to a chain and tensioner like the bike in the first photo? Now that's a bike I'd like to ride.

mozz (Aug 30, 2012 at 9:51)

Well you clearly just showed up your lack of suspension and kinematic knowledge. Concentric BB are awful, the worse of both worlds, and only really suitable to short travel DJ bikes like the le Pink, Bass and the new Spech to cushion big landings, not follow the contours of the trail. They are the worst bikes for bobbing because the pivot is always below the chain line creating a small leaver arm the size of the chainring, so when you pedal the torque from the chain want to make the rear end rotate upwards compressing the shock. With a slightly higher pivot on a URT the has a higher % geometric (non chain torque based) antisquat so does not suffer so bad. And chain tensioner suck, at that point you may as well give up and bolt some gears on. oh wait there we have bolted a gearbox on already.

Im definitely not saying that i want to see URT dh bikes. But for a 100mm travel 29er trail bike i think that what they have done is create a good engineering compromise.

sam264 (Aug 30, 2012 at 10:00)

What's wrong with chain tensioners? They do exactly what they say on the tin. A decent suspension design with a chain tensioner would be infinitely better than a belt drive URT.

mozz (Aug 30, 2012 at 10:13)

Well coming from experience they are even worse than derailleurs, the slightest knock and they go out of alignment causing the chain to rub against retaining guides at the side, or worse causing the chain to drop. The only half decent one iv tried had a big wide roller at the bottom that worked ok for a bit but as as a groove wore in it, it became equally knock sensitive. Now please go and troll on someone else, im not interested in educating you in suspension design and the merits and downfalls of each. All i wanted to state is that i think a URT was a good engineering compromise for a XC 29er with a gearbox. Im not interested in your opinions.

minotro (Aug 30, 2012 at 10:28)

I ride a haro sonix with a URT I love it, I ride it on everything. Personal experience, no conjecture here, it's great. check the pic in my profile.

sam264 (Aug 30, 2012 at 10:49)

I'm not trolling. Did you not look at the photos above? That akutech doesn't use a conventional tensioner, so it's less likely to get knocked. Wouldn't be much point designing a gearbox bike with all the same downfalls as derailleur gears...

aelazenby (Aug 30, 2012 at 17:58)

Mozz, you are correct in that the rear suspension will not stiffen much at all when you stand on the pedals. Your weight is almost right under the pivot point. The problem is that the bike will not be efficient to pedal. Picture hanging a weight from the forward pedal while preventing the rear wheel from spinning. The weight on the pedal will cause the rear suspension to compress a bit, which is why the old Trek Y bikes were bobbed like crazy. However, I would still really like to try riding the bike. Perhaps they really did their math and found the perfect pivot point that cancels out all of the forces and gives it an amazing ride. On a side note, the Haro Sonix is not quite a real URT. Depending on its travel it functions like URT or a single pivot. It is a brilliant design in my opinion and it is unfortunate it was cut.

minotro (Sep 1, 2012 at 14:43)

just curious, why do you say it's not a URT? I think if Haro had put a slacker head angle and an interchangeable rear drop out, it'd be the perfect bike.

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taletotell (Aug 30, 2012 at 11:06)

I wonder how long before I can buy slx cranks for this beast. I want one. I can't afford one but I want one. I still would rather have something besides a grip shift. Some people like them but not me.
I think this as the future. No heavy crap weighing down the back wheel, nothing being torn off by a stick, nothing being messed up by a single random rock.
My only question is how much energy is being lost in the gearbox? The derailleur system is very efficient. I don't want to put more power into the pedals and get less out than I already do.

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socommk23 (Aug 30, 2012 at 2:51)

all that tech and rubbish looking bike imo. then they go for gripshits! omg! if you going this far to prove a concept such as the gearbox....then please please please....go the rest of the way. dont forget about the rest of the bike!

NoSkidMarks (Aug 30, 2012 at 5:13)

Grip shift has some benefit for a gearbox, you can change many gears easily in one movement. Also if you did mis-shift, unlike with a mech, you're just in another gear, you don't have to grind it through. But you wouldn't mis-shift with it set up right anyway, well I never did/do with a Rohloff, or Nuvinci.
The main reason they use it though is there's a lot of cable to pull, and no return spring.
Up button one side, down the other is where it's at, trigger shifters suck also.
Grip shift sucks for changing when braking, but you can usually change before once you're used to it.
I'm about to ditch the trigger shifter on my Zerode and try a Nexus grip shifter.

socommk23 (Aug 30, 2012 at 11:37)

how about electronic selection?

NoSkidMarks (Aug 30, 2012 at 16:10)

Yeah, that's what I was referring too with button. Would be cool. Maybe pneumatic, maybe a trigger each side. Whatever ends up lightest I guess.

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mazze (Aug 30, 2012 at 11:13)

First bike is an Alutech Fanes if anybody wants to know...
I don't know why it's not in the article in the first place... but for those who want to check them out: alutech-cycles.com/alutech-rahmen
It seems they are coming in different options; enduro and allmountain which mainly defer in weight and range of travel.

NoSkidMarks (Aug 30, 2012 at 19:32)

There's a Pink bike test on here somewhere of that actual bike.

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OTehNoes (Aug 30, 2012 at 9:24)

Not a fan of grip shifts but I like how it looks! Not at all intrusive on the frame and removing the derailleur means you can't break anything at the back, and probably no chain slap either! Give me a trigger shift option and I'd totally consider it in future.

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aoneal (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:22)

Probably one of the most under estimated products out right now.

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pb213 (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:40)

probably one of the cleanest looking gear box bikes iv seen

xpanco Plus (Aug 30, 2012 at 1:40)

And compact too...

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oldslalomskier (Aug 30, 2012 at 6:11)

Flashbacks of Sturmey Archer... I've ridden belt driven bikes. Great for fixies, commuters and the like. In fact I think some guy won the single speed Breck Epic on a belt driven bike.

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ironxcross (Aug 29, 2012 at 23:17)

Looks kinda cool, but why did they have to put them on such shit bikes? The second one is a complete joke who would ride that? NEWSFLASH, derailleurs are light weight and work awesome these days. Gonna have to do MUCH better than this to take over.

NoSkidMarks (Aug 30, 2012 at 5:15)

Once you've got used to riding a gearbox bike, you wouldn't think derailleurs are so good.

sam264 (Aug 30, 2012 at 8:20)

I dunno, I'd rather ride a bike with a good (ie light and well shifting) gearbox, looks like they're finally headed that way. Can't wait to say goodbye to trying to bend back derailleur cages/hangers trailside...

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Kustomango (Aug 30, 2012 at 5:05)

Still lags behind Zerode in my opinion. but someone has to try new things, all power to their elbow for that!

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bikeytom (Aug 30, 2012 at 0:13)

Most of the gearbox frames I've seen seem to have some form of grip shift. I wonder if SRAM have noticed this trend and are bringing back their grip shift with this in mind?

bigburd (Aug 30, 2012 at 1:25)

They released thier new grip shift range a few months back.

xpanco Plus (Aug 30, 2012 at 1:44)

That's what Bikeytom said,he wonder if SRAM is bringing a gearbox,or a SRAM gearbox frame prototype...that would be amazing

bigburd (Aug 30, 2012 at 1:54)

Ah ok! only just woke up so my head is still fuzzy Razz

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wedh (Aug 30, 2012 at 2:00)

love the mechanism jst not a great fan of the twister lever

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b1k35c13nt15t (Aug 30, 2012 at 6:17)

As great as XX1 runs; this is where it is at. Minus the gripshit.

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brodieman96 (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:12)

ugh grip shift

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lightningskull (Aug 30, 2012 at 5:41)

I actually day dream about this bike

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diogo21 (Aug 30, 2012 at 6:08)

nestas bikes só mudava as manetes de das mudaças nao gosto de punhos rotativos

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bullitxl (Aug 30, 2012 at 9:28)

Neon is back, why not URT's? Oh wait, they both suck,that's why! I was a victim of both at one time. Never again!

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sngltrkmnd (Aug 30, 2012 at 10:11)

That first bike looks sick. The second, URT bike? Not so much.

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theycallmebrown (Aug 29, 2012 at 23:29)

Am i the only one without a clue how this works?

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UncleCliffy (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:19)

URT? Yay 90's tech making a come back!

SMH

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dancingwhale (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:08)

That belt looks like it'd be a bitch to put on if it ever came off in a race time situation.

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Worm-Burner (Aug 30, 2012 at 1:46)

It looks to me (second bike) like the rear triangle would pivot from the BB area and keep the belt at the same tension throughout travel...Looks brilliant...

sam264 (Aug 30, 2012 at 8:22)

yes but at the same time, the suspension basically doesn't work (unless you're sat down), think about it. You're stool on the pedals, which are attached to the swing arm, you're basically one huge un-sprung weight. Apart from your arms... It was a terrible idea 20 years ago, and it's an even more terrible idea now given that we actually have incredible suspension technology these days.

inked-up-metalhead (Sep 1, 2012 at 3:41)

yeah, dunno why they couldn't have just used a concentric BB pivot. its what all slope bikes that can be true single speed use, cos its the only way to truly singlespeed a full suss.

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MidgetSaw (Aug 30, 2012 at 12:57)

refine the gripshift...

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mike-gillespie (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:03)

want to try one of these, but i can't see me getting one any time soon.

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hubertje-ryu (Aug 30, 2012 at 10:24)

awesum.

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willems (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:44)

doesn't the boot'r utilize URT technology???

swan3609 (Aug 29, 2012 at 22:33)

No.. Its a FreeDrive.. similar to GT's I-Drive.. the bottom Bracket is floating between the main triangle and the swingarm..

thatgeeza (Aug 29, 2012 at 22:55)

No it isn't. Read the review, it's urt

swan3609 (Aug 29, 2012 at 23:27)

Are we both talking about the Mongoose boot'r? If so then it absolutely is not a URT, but a modified single pivot with a floating BB link..

sam264 (Aug 30, 2012 at 8:18)

mongoose bikes are not URT. They actually work.

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gooberx (Aug 30, 2012 at 15:36)

gearbox cool, this bike, gross

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betsie Plus (Aug 30, 2012 at 0:06)

Gear box Front chain device Nice.

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look-out (Aug 30, 2012 at 4:48)

That Alutech bike shold be named ZERO S as for "Zero Stiffness" on the rear...

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dabomb6724 (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:03)

pretty techy

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TotesRidic (Aug 30, 2012 at 14:34)

Too bad it's 'grip shift' like..

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digital-criminal Plus (Aug 30, 2012 at 9:48)

so where can I buy one?

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PigletOrange (Aug 30, 2012 at 2:46)

Shut up and take my money!

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JoeManKnob (Aug 30, 2012 at 1:59)

Stop bringing in crap stick with a chain and finger pushing

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MrDman (Aug 29, 2012 at 22:23)

they should develop a telescoping drive shaft to replace chains and belts

dugglesthemuddled (Aug 30, 2012 at 12:18)

That would almost certainly develop play instantly, or would not slide smoothly under torque

MrDman (Aug 30, 2012 at 20:40)

well that's why you do something with ball bearings or whatever and try to fix it... its called innovation

inked-up-metalhead (Sep 1, 2012 at 3:43)

problem with that is weight. the yamaha V-max uses a drive shaft, instead of a chain, and it weighs a ton. swapping it to chain drive saves about 30kg (the new sprocket and chain and shiz weighed 18kg) so for MTB it would be just too heavy

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column (Aug 29, 2012 at 22:51)

WHY are these photos all such shitty resolution???????

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immacaroni (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:13)

and gripshit for the win

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Below threshold threads are hidden

fritzman21 (Aug 29, 2012 at 21:01)

Swag

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tarenam (Aug 29, 2012 at 22:08)

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LazyCash38.com

si618 (Aug 29, 2012 at 22:14)

f**kin' spambots. reported.

kwilliams420 (Aug 29, 2012 at 22:45)

I don't know, I kinda like its style.

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lesz42 (Aug 29, 2012 at 23:54)

another new technology that forces you to buy a new none standard parts and frame! no better then srams 11 speeder! what a load of crap!

grip shifts, it will be heavy too, lossy and very £££££££

who needs this?

NoSkidMarks (Aug 30, 2012 at 5:22)

Yu hardly need to buy anything once you own it. Te chains on a Zerode last well over a year of regular DH because they're running straight, they then don't eat the sprockets as quick. I did two cable tensions in a year with the Zerode, that's two turns on the barrel adjuster. Everybody needs this, accept for those that make money selling or tuning deraileurs.

baca262 (Aug 30, 2012 at 16:23)

this is a new standard that actually brings many advantages and should be pushed as much as possible unlike the other gimmicks.

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