Random Products Part Two - Interbike 2012

 *world, the nukeproof pulse frame is looking rather menacing and i do like it, but for me the new boxxer decals have taken a step backwards rather than a step forward.

 Is it me or are you struggling with spelling ;P

 I agree. Seems like they tried to start the 29er DH and now they are going into the 650. Never tried either in a DH bike but seems like instead of making new parts they decided to lure us to buying $3000 frames for bigger wheels.

 Yes, where are all the gear boxes?

 Maybe i was just rushing and made a mistake its easy done . But you understood what i was saying so its no big deal is it really . I can find lots and lots of spelling mistakes in post on any site i just dont care ive got better things to do than pic out each spelling mistake. Im instreasted in bike im not on here to be a teacher

 agreed but those cranks are f*cking sexy

 Things have plateaued.... you will not continue to see such rapid innovation as was seen in the last decade or so. My DH bike in 2002 looked worlds apart from bikes of today. I dont think you will see the same drastic difference in another ten years. It's quite normal, just look at dirtbikes from the 70's and then look at bikes in the 80's. Twenty years later and even though they have gotten lighter and faster they still use one rear shock and have aluminum frames. (They all look quite the same too)... but as we know thats different discussion all together.

 No superbikes you should put some effort in. It's hard to read your comment when you spell "wourld" like this. Or is misspelling werds one of those kewl things to do now?

 No I don't do cool things anymore as my kids keep telling me I'm not cool :-)

 morbiking - question mark - ?
Spooner009 - comma - ,
SuperSlowDH - Maybe he should,but seriously you could not read "wourld" as world ?
superbikes - i understand you perfectly and also agree totally.

 Thanks

 I think that now we've kind of reached all we need to in bikes, and all there really is to do is make parts lighter and stronger. When it comes to downhill it's turning into being all about racing so companies will focus on what makes you go faster than inventing something new. And to add onto this, most articles involving a new idea such as new wheel sizes or headtube sizes, the majority of people will complain about it.

 How much more wicked can they get right?

 Here is a new idea...make stuff affordable

 Inter bike has only just started guys. We may yet see something great. I think 650b is pretty cool looking, but admittedly it isn't exciting. Gearbox is cooler, but how much pedal power is lost in the box? I want the numbers before that gets me excited.
Who knows something great could be revealed tonight! Or maybe marzocchi will just announce anodized purple and green forks and I will roll my eyes and go for a ride.

 Heeyyyy protour is that your bike at the top!? I'm shure Thers a pic on your profile of you falling off this!! Love what you've done with it!!! Lol

 but where is the zerode!!? now that is a brilliant revolutionary bike no?

 I agree but have to recognize that this last one is totally true!!!

 I mean protour last comment

 @superbikes... It's how they can keep making money year by year. The general population of the world is just getting the good stuff now that put man on the moon years ago.

 Dear prospecting companies...a market I see huge potential is in the neck brace market. If an effective neck brace was produced AND costs less than 110 dollars, NEARLY EVERYONE would invest in one. A 300 dollar piece of equipment that might save your ass, or in this case neck, once every 25 or so spills doesn't rank any higher in the "need" category for the general public as a pocket sized robotic fish fillet-er...imo.

1+ this comment if you would purchase a high quality leatt style neck brace IF it was LESS than $110

If this comment goes negative, I'd recommended making the robotic fish fillet-er instead

 Bahaa a "robotic fish fillet-er??" dude lay off Mary Jane she's blocking your imagination!! Lol
I agree to the neck brace thing though they need to bring a cheaper alternative out!!

 Why do you think they need to be cheaper? Is your neck not worth that much? The amount of research and development that goes into these things is ridiculous and paying 300 for a piece of equipment that could save your life isn't that much.

 Because They have reached the generic point. You know, that point when any company with an assembly line could make one for way less. The same thong happens with pharmaceuticals. I bet the price will be down by next year.
And yeah my neck is worth $300, but I don't have it, so I don't get that protection.

 @Bolmaing....you missed my point, and Mary Jane opens up your imagination, I don't know what you've been smoking

 Isn't what your asking a little ridiculous? It's like going to Ferrari, "Hey Ferrari, we really like your cars. They go super fast and you spend many millions of dollars making these but not many people can afford them. We would really like it if you made us a supercar for less than 30k with all the same technology and features as the 458 italia because then your cars would become popular and people would buy them." You pay for the quality and features in the product. If you would like shit neck protection buy yourself a neck roll for $30. Designed to do the same thing as a neck brace, just affordable.

 So I shouldn't drive unless I can buy a ferrari. Or I can buy a honda civic which does the same thing but isn't as fancy. economics 101. A low budget hockey equipment company could put a cheap one out the door pretty quick. It wouldn't be as good but I could afford it! Kind of like my cheap fullface. If I follow your logic to its end my head is too valuable for my to ride bikes unless I can buy the latest gear. Also my constantly growing kids would need hundreds of dollars in gear every year.

 No not at all. People complain about quality components costing too much. You pay for what you get is what i'm trying to say. Yes a honda civic can do some things the same as a ferrari, but it doesn't come with the performance and special features of the ferrari. Where did I say that you need the latest gear or product to ride a bike? Also protection for your kids generally lasts longer than one year so I think you are exaggerating slightly.

 My kids grow too fast to wear the same shoes for 3 months.
I don't need high quality, just basic function. It is not a question of quality, but availablity. I can find them for $60 which isn't terrible except that is what I paid for my helmet and I only would use it three times a year. I want one for $30.
I guess I'm just cheap.

 I just heard people bitching about nothing new coming out and figured if there was a company who could make neck braces cheaper, everyone would be able to afford one and therefor, they'd buy one. I put down 300 bucks for mine so I know that they are worth it. I'd like to see more people buying them but at the price they are now, not many can afford them...thats all

 I don't care how carbon it is, it's still not Ellsworth my money

 ^ shocker

 its still not quite there for me.

 agreed, but certainly an improvement

 Hey, they are only moderately ugly now!

 That Nukeproof just looks fast.

 I have a 2012 and that is fast lol got to love Nukeproof

 Scalp is way sicker... Pulse looks like a TR450 wannabe.

 I'm really psyched to hear that Nukeproof's gonna hav a bigger dealer network here in the US/Canada now... I REALLY like thier bikes, but like so many UK/Euro companies (YT Industries, MDE etc.) we just don't see them enough. And yeah, Elsworth has yet to make a good looking bike in my eyes and I don't care for the company so it's a big "PASS" from me but I'm sure SOMEONE will pay them what they're asking for them, people always do...

 NOTHING will ever, ever, ever come close to the sexiness of the beauuuuutiful TR450....especially in that lemon lime color

 Yeah, the TR450 IS dead sexy aye...

 depends what they mean by strength, flexural resistance or impact resistance because carbon fibre really cant take any abuse, and it dont like oil either it suffers from what we call BVID barely visible impact damage, impact creates a christmas tree effect of damage and delamination thru the laminations then it falls to bits.

 Actually properly done, carbon fiber frames and components can take WAAAAAAYYYY more abuse than any other material ones can. And in the case of frames, they're way more easily repaired. Way cheaper also.

 bighiggy. Carbon is stronger in nearly every way than other materials. Sharp direct impacts are a little of concern but it's not something a chain guide would really get (I'm thinking more rock to down tube). If you were worried you'd use a carbon/kevlar type lay up. If kevlar can stop a bullet, it can stop a rock. However, carbon is stronger, lighter, stiffer, no fatigue life etc etc. It's actually the perfect material for a bike IF it is manufactured and layed up correctly. As for the oil creeping between the layers and delaminating it? Well, for £100000 that this guide would cost, I hope to hell they seal the edges once it's cut!

 Your chain guide never takes sharp direct hits? I bottom out on hard crap about once a week. Also, how good does a guide have to be? None of them are heavy. Most do a good job. E13 charges a ton and weighs an amount less I can match with a haircut from a place that has almost no effect on performance.

 Ive ridden carbon cranks and aluminum cranks, the carbons being lighter, stiffer, and definitely stronger. Same with frames.

 protour, didnt you hate shimano???? make up your mind dude

 Haha do you get neg proped for everything you say??

 @tanner-greiner

there is a VERY good reason Shimano continue to make all of their cranksets, including their premium Dura Ace, XTR and Saint crankset from cold forged aluminium alloy



they see no overall advantage in carbon fibre for cranksets and there are genuine issues about impact damage (whether from rock strikes on MTB or clipless pedal shoe cleat scratches on road bikes)

Shimano is undoubtedly the master of bicycle component manufacturing technology - their product has a quality that SRAM and others simply don't have...and I have a lot of SRAM on my mountain bike!

 lol Protour, i'm pretty sure people just see your name then neg prop you! i say keep the free speech coming, i love diverse opinions...so, so many haters

 Haha so true!!

 Someone has to take the place of Waki... :'(

 I'm trying it on the front of my trail bike and am very impressed so far. Bike is more stable and a little slacker, with no disadvantages.

 Yes.... because twenty different tire models from a dozen brands is such a lack of choice....

 I just feel like it would be a hassel to convert over to 650b, and i like the idea of 26 inch being the main tire size...just saying

 Is somebody holding a gun to your head forcing you to ride 650B ? If you ride DH, chances are you're already riding on tires that are 27.5 inches in diameter. The only "twenty six" inch tires that are actually that diameter, are skinny little things around 1.9 to 2.0 inches wide. My fat bike has 559mm bead seat tires, that are nearly 4 inches wide (and wider ones exist approaching five inches) and inflated the diameter is so close to 29 inches, that the brands that sell fat bikes, try and market them as all-season bikes because you can build a second 29er wheelset to use them in the summer time with skinnier tires (nevermind the fact that except for Surly, most fat bikes require special - READ EXPENSIVE - hubs).



In any case, the only thing special about the pedals show is that they're a limited edition colour combination only available at Interbike. Its like the companies that give away / sell cool bottle openers or wallets or keychains. They're nothing most mountain bikers couldn't make themselves using broken parts or defective samples or something, but they're ëxclusive" because you got them at Interbike, so that makes them better....

I myself have made elaborate wind chimes using chainrings, cogs, and titanium seatpost shafts, bottle openers from pieces of cogs and spare chain links, drink holders from pieces of inner tube, etc.

 deeeight your a tool!
How long do you think the industry will keep on with three different wheelsizes?? Next year you get 650b tires because they push them sooo much and thats it!!
I think all of that is a step in the wrong direction!

 The "INDUSTRY" isn't some secret cabal like the freemasons or the illuminati, no matter how you and others try and make them out to be. How is MORE options for the riders a step in the wrong direction ? How is supporting a wheel size that mountain bikes WOULD have started with had there been easier sourcing of the tires THIRTY FIVE years ago, somehow ruining the sport now that its happening to the extent it is ?! You can be some close minded fool if you want, but don't get in the way of the rest of us who embrace change. Ya know life is all about making choices... I and others have made the choice to ride 650B and we did it without being told by some magazine or some sales rep from a brand we like to buy.

As to how long... the industry will keep supporting EVERY tire / wheel format as long as there is demand for them from the consumers. Right now Schwalbe alone makes tires for about a DOZEN different sizes of bead seat diameters. You seem to think bicycles start and end at 26"(iso 559) and 29" (iso 622), but there are a host of others not including just 650B (iso 584) and even 24" (iso 507).

 mega wank? never heard that before haha

 I loved the look of the BOX(XER) on the stanchions and lowers. These new decals are awful. I think it might just be bad enough to coin that new term.

 They must have giving the trainee a little too much say in the design of that boxxer.

 Yes... they really develop their bikes on their own. Astro is merely the manufacturer of the production frames. A manufacturer that offers generic copies for other brands. That's quite common in the bike world, or any manufacturing world for that matter. Apple suing samsung over smartphone technology was hilarious to me, given the amount of design styling Apple has stolen from others over the years, and that they DEPEND on samsung to manufacture components for their products.

 100% correct!!

 it looks loooooooooong.

 Yes but CB pedals long-term, suck... just like all their other products. Colours are nice, but some of us ride our artwork, not just look at it in the basement...

 Already bringing the hate? I was simply trying to figure out what was new about them. Candies have been out for a year or so if I recall right.

 That generation of candies have been out for over a year, the model itself has been re-designed once already though (along with the rest of their pedals) to try and make them last longer than a few months. And people can neg-prop me all they want but its true that CB products do not last. Every product they offer, except for the tire levers (which was their first product, and even it didn't do a very good job of things) and their platform pedals has had to undergo a major redesign to try and improve the durability(the platform pedals only needed cosmetic changes). Their seatposts (dropper or otherwise) still aren't up to snuff. Terrible clamp design that, when it works, makes for terribly slow/difficult saddle removal or installation and when it doesn't work, forces you to wish you'd just bought another brand.

 CB = shite

nice packaging though....

 I have some pink quattro road pedals for sale as it happens, new in the box... my gf loves pink parts but I wouldn't let her use them... I also have pink/white smarties and they'll be going up for sale soon too, all new take-offs, just don't want them, and neither do of other consumers given that I know of at least one local dealer that had to discount bin them, at $20/pair, just to get rid of the ones they had.

 Add to the list of good products they make - my multi tool. Solid, long lasting and compact.

 They are probably x0 dh cranks? I know someone who's been running them all year and he's had no problems.

 You obviously haven't heard about the X0 DH cranks! Here you go www.pinkbike.com/news/SRAM-X0-DH-First-Look.html

 Yes, I heard - the crank arms are identical do the XC model, it's only the spindle that is sturdier - but It's not the stiffness I am concern about.
Going back to my point - where is the common sense? I would reluctantly put carbon cranks even on my XC bike knowing how often I hit the stones and roots with them.

I like carbon as a material, I think it makes perfect sense to use it to produce frames, handlebars, spacers etc.
In my opinion, when comes to cranks, it is an expensive and fragile cosmetic treatment. Note that all those cranks have the aluminium core.

I guess if you are pro you do not care what the mechanic/sponsor puts on your bike, and if you have money and want to look like pro then you simply go for it, it's your choice, but not very wise, practical or economical in my opinion.

 Carbon has moved on since the early days when a rock strike would ruin a frame or component. Go towards the end of the video here www.pinkbike.com/news/santa-cruz-bicycles-test-lab.html and see what it can take impact wise if you didn't see it before....

 Once again (read above) I'm not concerned about the strength of carbon but the need of use such material in DH cranks.

 "I would reluctantly put carbon cranks even on my XC bike knowing how often I hit the stones and roots with them. "

not worried bout the strength of carbon? what are you on about then?

 Kovaldesign, we have a thing out here called raceface and we run them carbons cuz they sick bro sick sick sick

 @kovaldesign

one of the guys I know here in the UK is a carbon composite engineer for Williams Formula 1 racing, this guy is at the top of his game working on destruction testing and development of carbon fibre

he is also a keen mountain biker, and has openly stated (on UK bike forums) that carbon fibre is the future for frame manufacturing, but NEVER for handlebars, seatpost and cranksets - he would rather continue to use aluminium alloy bars, posts and cranks, with very good reasons..

 @ hampsteadbandit Very interesting. You make me wonder now what's that 'good reason'? Most of us would assume 'go carbon everywhere', so it would be cool to hear what this engineer has in mind.

@ Railgunner, guess what? I know the RaceFace very well and it's one of my favourite brand.

 @hampsteadbandit, so this guy supports the use of carbon fiber in basically every aspect of a vehicle from the chassis to the gearbox that is designed to go 240 mph and create 4000 lbs of downforce, but doesn't think it should be used in handlebars, cranks or seatposts on a mountain bike?

okay then. Let's hear these good reasons.

 I would guess because when an F1 car crashes the entire thing is tossed - no worrying about invisible damage. I'm sure if that engineer was to replace his bars, seatpost and cranks every three rides (similar to the cars he works on) then he'd ride them for sure.

I use carbon frames and wheels, but never again for bars, and wouldn't for seatpost. Not thought about cranks.

 this is his reasoning:

"Why carbon?

Well let me be of some assistance. I have an MSc in the subject and work with it and test it every day at the top level (Formula 1). Are you sitting comfortably?...
Here's a brief guide:

For a start do not buy carbon bars for downhill or any kind of harsh riding!

Carbon composites are materials made by using a resin (usually epoxy) reinforced with carbon fibres, these can be continuous, as in woven cloths or unidirectional ribbons for example, or discontinuous short fibres or even nano tubes!

Pros:
It is light and strong and can be made into almost any shape.
Its strength can be designed into it in the desired locations depending on fibre placement and number of plies (layers).
It can be very stiff, or very compliant (depending on how it is designed and made etc).
It has excellent fatigue life (verging on the infinite).
It can absorb huge amounts of energy when it fails (hence great for making helmets).
It can be tough (depending on the resin).
It has excellent damping and shock absorption properties.

Cons:
It is expensive.
Its purely elastic nature means that it does not locally yield at points of high stress, unlike metals which relieve stress concentrations by deforming plasticly around the point.
It is not indestructable.
When it breaks in tension it goes with a BANG and without warning.
When it breaks in compression it crumbles (with a not so big bang).
When it breaks it splinters (health hazard, in more ways than one).
It is weak in any direction other than the fibre direction.
It can be brittle (depending on the resin).

 to continue:

"So you can see why they are not good for handle bars, where there are many stress concentrations with everything that is bolted to it. These can induce failure. Carbon composites are best joined by adhesive bonding, not with mechanical fasteners like nuts and bolts (see cons).

Now, Carbon Nano Tubes (CNTs) Not to be confused with Carbon Ultra Nano Tubes are minute (on the nano scale) tubes of carbon. Imagine a sheet of carbon atoms, one atom thick rolled into a tube. These are some of the stiffest and strongest (to weight ratio) fibres known to man. Hence if used correctly as a reinforcement can make some very strong stuff indeed. However CNT's are very expensive to make. Recent developments in technology have reduced the costs though and we can now see such technology in things like bicycle handle bars. However, still at a price of a couple of hundred pounds a gram of CNTs (or something ridiculous) I wonder how the likes of Easton make a bar entirely from CNT reinforced composite for the price of £70. I imagine they use a tiny amount of CNTs in their bars. Meaning the rest of the bar would likely be made up from woven carbon (as some of those photos suggest).

Carbon can be woven, with many different weave patterns, including plain weave, 2x2 Twill and 5 harness satin weave. The latter two are often used in structural parts and have good drape properties for forming complex shapes. Some woven fabrics however are used for cosmetic reasons, like plain weave for example. You can also have layers of woven plies.

The Easton bars use woven carbon for structural reasons too. They cannot be purely CNT composite - it would cost way too much! But CNT composites, if made properly with even distribution of the CNTs (which is the tricky part as they often 'clump' together being so small) will potentially be stronger than woven."

 and finally:

"Basically Alloy bars will be much more durable and much safer. Don't be a fool - don't put carbon bars on your bike!

I might add that carbon can be used to make ideal frames (Lahar for example) and some components. It just takes good design. Metal inserts bonded into the carbon structure are a good way to provide locations to thread / bolt to etc. However there can be problems with bonding Alu to carbon (thermal expansion and stiffness differences, galvanic corrosion etc). Titanium is really the best option here as it has none of the problems that Alu does...

Anyway if you've read this far - well done, I hope this has been interesting.

In summary: Don't buy carbon bars, waste of money."

 Ta. Though I don't understand the second con. It sounds counterintuitive.

 Your pros and cons are making an awful lot of assumptions. It can be this or that. Well, considering the destructive testing these bars go through, I feel safe on them.

 You have to think, alloy bars can just fail too, my bars snapped without any warning rolling in to a jump, fortunately not on the landing! I suppose just run what you're comfortable with, I'd run cranks but probably not bars, just my thoughts.

 @JScott: these are not my assumptions but copied from posts on another forum, of a UK contact who is a professional composites engineer for Williams Formula 1 racing team (and a keen mountain biker)

yes, aluminium alloy bars can fail (anything will fail given enough load), however the modern, quality brand (Easton, Race Face, etc.) aluminium handlebar is very well manufactured and tends to bend rather than suddenly shear as myself and my riding buddies have experienced first hand.

in the "real world" the aluminium bar tends to be a lot tougher from everyday wear and tear like scratches / gouges, fitment of equipment (brake lever, shifter, stem, locking grips) and crashes where the end of the bar digs into the ground, compared to carbon fibre bars which are very "notch sensitive" and do not have the localised elastic deformation that an aluminium bar exhibits if the brake lever is pushed into the ground in a crash

I am thinking particularly of one customer at my old shop using an Easton CNT DH bar which suddenly sheared next to the RF Diablous stem on his next ride (causing a crash), following the previous crash where he put his left grip into the dirt.

We had fitted the bar in our shop, using torque wrench and checking his lever, stem and shifter edges for any sharpness before mounting the bar.

This customer was 12 years old and slightly built, the bar was approx. 1 week old and was actually a replacement for a 2 year old Easton EA-70 aluminium bar which was heavily scratched and gouged, having survived 2 years of abuse and crashes without any issues - let's just say his next bar was aluminium alloy.