Santa Cruz Bronson - 650B Enduro Racer in Carbon and Aluminum

Apr 1, 2013 at 3:50
Apr 1, 2013
by Richard Cunningham  
 
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Black Bronson C with orange decal kit Enve XXI build

Natural carbon Bronsons will be offered in a number of color graphic options and if you pop for the Enve carbon wheel option, you can get them matched to your bike.



Santa Cruz has been busy this season and secretive about its plans - the first of which is the Bronson 650B line. The six-inch-travel VPP design will be offered in both carbon and aluminum in a wide number of build kits (Shimano and SRAM) that range in price from $4150 to $10,419, so there is a Bronson suitable for both thousandaire and millionaire Enduro pilots alike. Most of the release is about the top-line Enve/SRAM XXI build, which is quite stunning. The new carbon frame is updated with all of the bits that were developed for the Tallboy LTC - co-molded aluminum pivot bosses, and the simplified swingarm design. The rockers are still sturdy aluminum and all the main suspension bearings are adjustable.

Bronson C Action Santa Cruz Photo

Billed as an enduro racing bike, the Bronson should put the mid-size wheels to the ultimate test.


Bronson Details:
• 27.5" (650b) wheels
• 142 mm rear axle spacing.
• New molded rubber swingarm and downtube protectors.
• 2 x bottle cage mounts.
• Forged upper link.
• Forged aluminum lower link with angled grease ports: offset for chainguide clearance.
• Collet axle pivots: lock in place without pinch bolts.
• Angular contact bearings: all pivots.
• Direct mount rear derailleur hanger option: standard hanger comes as stock.
• Full carbon dropouts and disk mounts.
• Co-molded aluminum hardware on frame pivots: no bonding.
• Carbon ISCG-05 tabs.
• Routing for Reverb Stealth dropper post.
• 73mm threaded BB.

Bronsons will reportedly be the spearhead for the Syndicate's push into the European enduro racing scene, where the Santa Cruz sponsored team plans to do some damage. Rumors have it that Santa Cruz, which has been cautious to enter new markets, has been testing the Bronson for an extended period, lending credibility to the notion that the mid size wheel is much more than a fad. If you remember, SC was reluctant to offer up a 29er, but when they did, it was an instant hit. We expect the Bronson to follow suit. Is there a 650B V-10 hiding in the new Santa Cruz factory? Syndicate riders say nay, but I am thinking, yeah.

Santa Cruz Bronson aluminum and geometry chart

The aluminum-frame version is pretty sweet looking too. Geometry is adjusted for 27.5 inch wheels, so the 67-degree head angle is going to feel closer to 66 on the trail.



Bronson frames follow much of the new design improvements ushered in by the Tallboy LTC - a simplified swingarm design, sturdy aluminum rocker links, and adjustable angular contact bearings in the suspension pivots, but there are some new tricks, like internal dropper post routing and a direct-mount front derailleur (SC originally espoused that a clamp-type was best for those who ran and single chainring). Santa Cruz hinted that the Bronson was only the first of two big releases this spring. Sea Otter may hold another gem. we'll keep you posted.

Yellow Bronson C with Enve XXI build

Check out those tires. A lot of 650B riders have been waiting for those babies.




For more info on the Bronson, check out the page on the SC website. The text of the official press release follows below:


20 YEARS IN THE MAKING

Two decades of evolution at Santa Cruz brought us here. An entirely new frame, new wheel size and new perspective on what a 6" travel bike can conquer.

Bronson is not some rehashed 27.5" tribute act to anything else in our range. It stands alone as testament to the years of designing and refining at our old Bronson Street facility.

Locked up for months of secret testing, Bronson breaks straight onto the scene as the Syndicate's race bike for their Enduro World Series campaign.

From Tazmon to Bronson... Santa Cruz continues to lead each new era in mountain bike design.

Santa Cruz Bikes
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394 Comments

  • + 59
 Still can't get over this pricing. They have a "special" on the Aluminum version for $3400 with STX, but for a mostly XT bike, $5315. Which I would prefer. However if you look at a comparable motorcycle, a newly redesigned, aluminum framed 2013 Kawasaki 250f, with a Kashima coated fork and shock (coils), sells for $7595. Even if they claim it's for R&D, the moto has a new ECU, fuel injection and fork. A complete motor and transmission, radiators, fenders and plastic pieces, would price it well over the $2300 in the difference.

People will pay for the Bronson, but with it being manufactured overseas for pennies on the dollar. Knowing what raw materials cost, I think it could sell for less and still come out ahead. And they would sell more of them. The Bronson looks great, probably has a stellar ride and would bring a big smile, but my 2013 KTM Duke is looking like a huge bargain. That's just my opinion.
  • + 11
 I agree. You park a $7k mtb next to a $7k motorcycle and think how the hell do they cost the same? Then if you ask that question at your LBS they'll tell you that it's because of the all the R&D that they do. Then I ask don't you think motorcycle companies do R&D as well? Fact of the matter is there are a lot less motorcycle companies than mtb companies and motorcycles are more popular than mountain bikes and if you go on bikepedia you'll see what I'm talking about. So with all the competition from other companies and the attitude that bicycle companies have (Ours is lighter, better, and we have all this cool new tech, ect, ect.) and if you want one like this you'll just have to pay for it.

A company that has got my attention is Airborne Bicycles. They are an internet only Co. ( no middleman) and most of the lbs's frown on them but when you can get a DH bike equipped with rock shox, marzocchi, avid and the like for $1400 brand new, what the hell, I cant afford $3500+ for a new one from my local shop. To bad the model I want is sold out, but I bought one of their trail bikes for my wife that uses the old Iron Horse warrior frame and for an entry level bike with disc brakes, rock shox forks, marzocchi rear shock and sram drive train I only paid $400 for it.The new top of the line 29er they offer is completely Sram XO equipped and and only cost $2999.95.

Another thing that I have noticed is that you never see a bicycle Co advertising on TV. Is this some kind of unwritten law or what? Or at least that's been my experience.
  • + 0
 Where are you guys looking? On the bike builder you can spec a Bronson Carbon non-kashima SPX AM 27 2x10 for $3400, which is XT build, no dropper. That's pretty bloody good by any standards.
  • + 4
 And the price difference between the low end build and highest is outrageous! You mean to tell me its twice the bike!? Definitely separates the haves from the have nots!
  • + 23
 Welcome to life. If you want good value go buy a giant.
  • + 11
 Check my profile pana & the bikes I have/had, I buy quality stuff and don't mind paying! But it has got way out of hand! The industry has us by the ballz...
  • - 7
 A 9k moto has single wall aliminum rims, aluminum bar, aluminum frame, single pivot suspension, wire beed tires, and forks with steel stanchions.You could buy that level of MTB for under 2k. A race ready moto with all the goodies is 50-150k.
  • + 3
 @Hwulex, where is the carbon SPX model for 3400? I see it at $5000.
  • + 4
 Santa Cruz have IMO reasonably good value frames, however their build kits aren't great value. I guess they need to push their suppliers harder or something. Given the size of Santa Cruz (not exactly a boutique brand anymore), you would think they could be a little better value for money. I think they make brilliant bikes and they're always on the list, but they could be a tad more competitive in the pricing dept and I believe, sell more units for it.
  • + 11
 Furthermore, I'm not quite sold on the whole Alu and Carbon frame marketing ploy. Why not just embrace the future, do it just in carbon and sell it at a slightly cheaper price? More units, lower unit cost, less R&D developing the Alu version. Santa Cruz has more than enough Carbon experience for everyone to see, no need to really offer Alu on any of their new bikes.
  • + 3
 @solcalmx. My bad. Sorry my comments were not ment directly for you. Just sharing my feelings about expensive bikes in general. But a bike that costs twice as much will never be twice as light/fast/strong will it? On my bikes I'm happy with slx or x9 and some hope/flow wheels. But I must confess that I do prefer to run the top level suspension.
  • + 2
 I'm starting to wonder if buying a frame and building it up yourself is destined to become the cheaper option for smaller brands bikes. Apart from maybe the fork which can be very expensive when bought alone particularly if its a new model. transition bikes do frame and fork only deal that I think pretty great.
  • - 1
 it may look great, ride great, and be generally great, but its called 'THE BRONSON'. just let that sink in... BRONSON!! WHAT THE f*ck WERE YOU THINKING SANTA CRUZ!?!
  • + 8
 I guess you haven't heard of Charles Bronson.
  • - 3
 No... I suppose that would explain it then...
  • + 1
 @vondur Definitely must've been a new-web-site fart this morning as the price isn't there any more, as have a lot of other options changed. Cheapest now seems to be the R build at $4200. Shame, should've ordered one there and then.
  • + 2
 Willie1:
Are you a idiot? A 9k Moto bike gets you kashima coated forks and shock, not steel. Fuel injection my 2012 KX450f comes with three different couplers so I can change fuel injection mapping in 2 minutes. The wheels are tough as hell, I've never beent a frame, single pivot suspension is amazing, and my wire bead tires never blow out. Not to mention a fuel pump, ecu, hole shot device to tame the power and put it to the ground. My bikes had got just as much electrical as a car, and it only cost 8,400. Then I deck it out with a pipe, wheels, levers, suspension, and different graphics, non of which needed changed, I just wanted to do it. And I still come in cheaper then my Santa Cruz V-10 Carbon with Enve wheels, Fox Suspension and a whole saint group????

That just doesn't add up to me!
  • - 4
 It does not add up to you because that you do not realize that manufacturing light parts is much more expensive.

Can you pedal you moto bike uphill? No, you can not. It is much easier and cheaper to make something driven by a motor (and sold in large quantities)

At least here you do get quite a bit of moving parts. Road bikes are at this price point all the time, and they do not even have things like suspension or hydraulic brakes.

Why? Because it is even harder to make a machine that is that light, that stiff and holds up to motorcycle like speeds on descends without breaking apart.
  • + 0
 Haha I bought a nice used 2008 Kawi zx6r for 4500. Came with a GPr stableizer and pine box screamer exhaust. I also bought a ninja 250 for the wife which was 4000 new. I'm sorry I cannot justify buying one bicycle for the price of two motorcycles the industry is ridiculous.
  • + 1
 @willie1 your shitting me right lol a race ready moto for 50k - 150k go slap yourself. Like I stated above 8500 for two motorcycles I can buy a season pass to Laguna SECA track and still have 1500 to play with.
  • - 9
 Can you pedal you bike up a hill? No? Then what's the use? I have bough a bundle of firewood for a few bucks - about as much use for cycling as your moto.

It is stupid to compare unrelated products. If you can design and make a better bicycle for cheaper - go start a bike company. Maybe you will earn something and stop counting other people's money.

But the thing is - you can't.
  • + 9
 This whole moto vs mtb is really stupid! There is no way in hell a bike you have to pedal should be compared to a motorized cycle! People who believe the mountain bike prices are justified are as bad as tho companies selling them! It has become out of hand!!! Now im off to enjoy some trails on my $5000.00 Yeti!!!
  • + 3
 No but I can defenetly ride my kx250 up a hill if you wants to bring that up. My point is where does the outrages pricing stop? When a bicycle gets that expensive we as consumers need to take a step back and say enough is enough. I'm not comparing what I can do on a bike vs moto sorry for any confusion.
  • + 2
 Oh and @axxe how am I counting other people's money? Everything I buy I pay for. I'm a full time college student at UCSD and I work full time. So yes when people in my situation see an 11k price tag it's outrageous. I have no problem paying for a bike I feel is worth the money fact of the matter is I and many others aren't seeing that and hopefully the bike company does too
  • - 4
 If you do not understand why an expensive bike is worth it, we can't help you. No, you do not ride up a hill on your bike - motor does it for you. The fact is, if somebody could make it better and cheaper, they would. But they can't, so it is stupid to argue what the price should be.
  • + 3
 Your hopeless. Plenty of carbon bikes are well under 11k for a complete build. But why would they make it cheaper when people like you try and justify the cost?
  • + 7
 prices are not derived from the R&D (which is this case is about 0) or how much it is to manufacture them (which is way less than 1000$ in this case) - it only derived from this -
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_curve
most people are willing to pay more than 100$ for a per of snickers with the right brand name while it only 5$ to make and market them.
BTW the amount of R&D put into MX bike clutch is more than all the R&D Santa Cruz putting for all their bikes combined but again this would not be reflected in the price anyway
  • - 8
 Bollocks. Straight up bullshit. You do not know how it is made and how much it cost.
  • + 4
 Man you are dumb as a pile of bricks lol. I bet you I could sell you a nice stack of horse shit for 10k . The prices are not high cuz it costs that much lol its cuz idiots like you would pay that much. . So how come you can find left over bikes selling for 2500-3k when the original price was like 5-6k ?.
  • + 3
 i hope he's just trolling. he keeps replying with pedaling up hill vs an engine doing it for you which translates into the motor beige cheaper... i mean yeah they are bred for different things but what it boils down to is n too is the fact that bicycling is becoming more expensive then buying a vehicle.
  • + 5
 @Mx427: kashima is a coating. The stanchions are steel on all MX forks excepting the 50mm WP aftermarket fork. The 10k mtb is the equivalent level of equipment to what James Stewart, Ryan Villipoto, and Ryan Dungey are using. Their bikes are rumoured to cost 125-150k. A fully prepped national level engine is 25k at the low end and 60k at the high end. What FACTS are you basing your info on? You don't even know what your fork is made of. Call the service department and ask them if you don't believe me. Also call up one of the race shops like Pro Circuit and ask the for a duplicate of their National race bikes. You will drop the phone. A Ti race pipe is $1500.00. I raced for years, and know what that equipment costs, and what my equipment was at the local level compared to a national level bike.

I love MTB because I can afford the same equipment the top pros can run. I could never do that when racing moto.
  • + 2
 If you can afford an 11k bike your doi better then 99% of us average joes here
  • + 0
 But can u put a motorbike in ur little apartment 2 sets of stairs up after every ride? It is a funny fact though the a bike n motorbike are the same price, lol.
  • + 2
 You guys realize SC sold their last years V10 frame for ~ 1800$ on their website and are still making money!?
  • + 3
 wow, neg props for actually knowing what competition motorcycles cost. Maintain your ignorance and block anyone who doesn't agree with your religion.
  • + 4
 @robin281 It is called the Bronson because it was developed at their old location. 104 BRONSON St.
  • + 3
 i think what axxe was trying to say was that not much r&d goes into making a 7k moto as light as possible. amd i can think of three reasons for the cost, peaty minnaar and gracia.
  • + 0
 the Chinese or whichever asian country that's building the frames must be getting german wage packets
  • - 1
 A lot of butthurt idiots over here with no clue. None whatsoever. Willie, do not waste your actual knowledge on kids.
  • + 0
 Seth, my wife and I make 160k/year, I have been at the same job for over 20 years, top of the pay scale. I bought my first new car on 2008, and paid outright for it. I EARNED the right to buy nice equipment from the years of sacrificing it took to get here. I want to piss on the people who complain about the prices of things when they haven't sacrificed enough to earn them. I made different life decisions than many, and did without for many years. I am not lucky, spoiled, a rich kid or any other BS label the entitled kids place on those who can afford. When jobs were tight, I worked at the local arena for some spending money, even though I am university educated. It wasn't below me, it was an opportunity. I did what others felt was degrading.
  • + 1
 That's nice buddy. I never once said you're a rich spoiled kid or anything of the kind all i said was if you can afford an 11k bike your doing better then 99% of pinkbikers.i too work for my stuff 40 hours a week a long with being in a grad program UCSD. So Im notbitch ling Im making a statement biking is expensive. I don't have my parents who makewell over 160k a year buy me stuff Im an adult i work i pay my rent insurance etc.

The only Thing i have my parents pay for is school tuitio. I learned the value of a dollar saved bought a motorcycle and a used but nice tacoma no bitching here buddy i work hard for mytoys too
  • + 1
 Its not too expensive. YOU can't afford it. I don't have a Porsche. I can't affort one. Its not that it is too expensive. Big difference.
  • + 1
 What you just said makes no sense. I KNOW I can't afford it because its TOO expensive. You shouldn't have to take out a freakin loan to buy a BICYCLE. I'm done replying arguing with you is pointless.
  • + 2
 10K is not too much for your primary hobby. Tons, and tons of hobbies that are more expensive and less beneficial for you. Now, I do not believe it is a good value, I would rather buy several different bikes - and I did do that, for more than 10K. Over the last twenty years I probably spent an equivalent of a couple good cars. Worth every penny for me. Its fun. Not that I take any loans for toys, given how my stock options paid out..
  • + 0
 I don't have to take out a loan to buy one. You don't make enough money to buy one. I do. This isn't good, bad or indifferent. I can't afford a Porsche. They aren't too expensive, I don't make enough money to buy one. What doesn't make sense with that?

Try racing Moto if you want to see expensive. In a weekend: $300.00 tires, $400.00 clutch, $120.00 fork rebuild, $200.00 entry fees plus truck to haul bike, fuel, oil changes. Ober a season: 3 sets of wheel bearings, three chains and sperockets, 1-2 engine rebuilds. Plan on 15-20k to race each weekend for a year. Its nuts. This is why I ride MTB. Its CHEAP in comparison.
  • + 1
 104 bronson is santa cruz's new address... is the nomad going to get the short stays too? please.
[Reply]
  • + 29
 Prices on bikes are really starting to get silly .. I know people have to make a profit but there is a line when things get out of control and i hope these companies wake up and see this cuz they sure as hell would sell more $10k bikes if they actually only cost like 5-6K .
  • + 22
 The price is rediculous. It kinda makes me ill. A small percentage of the market will be able to afford this while the rest of us will stare and drool while we wait 3 years to buy a used one on Pb.
  • + 6
 but then they wouldn't be $10k bikes
  • + 13
 YT and Canyon will take care of that. These companies are overhyped brands for dentists a comparable bike can be sold profitable for half the price.
  • + 0
 The prices are a reflection of the component spec of the bikes. When buying boutique brands, you won't find deore or alivio hung off of a boutique frame. A mid range bike will be over $3000.00 from any company. Look at any brand and see the components on $2500 and below FS 150mm bikes. The direct sellers such as airborn and canyon cut out a few middle men, but you don't support the LBS Wink
  • + 16
 I completely agree it's getting out of hand. Seems like it was not too long ago that a super high end bike was $5k, now it's $10k... will bikes cost $20k eventually? Bikers are notoriously obsessed with having the latest and greatest (myself included) and the way I see it bike companies are capitalizing on this. Hopefully people come to their senses and don't buy the $10k+ build options so companies decided to pull it back a bit. Enve wheels are probably one of the single most excessive things I have ever seen in my life. You can build a pretty damn nice wheelset with stans rims and hubs of your choice for a tiny fraction of the cost...
  • + 3
 And some of this high end stuff breaks way to easy. I have seen so many sheared Saint deraileurs at this point.
  • + 2
 I dropped $800 on my first bike since then I've dropped another $1200 on my next bike and am about to pull the trigger on a stinky frame for my 3rd build including parts I'll have spent $2500 or $3000 TOPS on 3 bikes, thats over $1000 less than one of these new, yes 2 of the bikes/frams were used but dear lord i can hardly afford these...
  • + 6
 Do banks give out loans for mountain bikes?
  • + 11
 Sorry SC, I just don't see 10,000 $ worth of tech here. I understand you guys want to support the syndicate, but this is out of hand!
  • + 10
 I see you point Willie1 but as my dad says. "£10000!!!!!!!!??????????? Its not even got an engine!!!!!!!"
The price is unreal. I'll still to a nomad c. My riding buddy nearly brought a nomad C for £5000 from one of our local shops for half of that top spec bike and it was full custom spec and probaly a better buy!!!! I'm sorry but how ever good'a bike this maybe if you buy it your either stupid, have to much money or are sponsored in which case you've been given it!!!!
Just my opinion.
  • + 3
 @rclugnut, mathematically speaking your next bike will cost roughly $6,250. Look out! That's how they get you. Smile
  • + 1
 I've just built up a pristine 2010 slayer frame and van rc2 fork with new parts for just under £1800 ($2740) i don't see how i could improve it a noticeable way. 30lb so it could go on a diet if i didn't mind replacing parts every five minutes.
x9 shifting(type 2), xt brakes with floating rotors, hope hubs, flow ex rims, maxxis tyres (tubeless), slx crank with chromag chainring, kmc chain, atlas bars, pro grips,

so my point is i just can't see how they justify the prices they put on these bikes.
  • + 1
 Sorry SC, but I don't think my bank will let me take out a $10,500 loan for a bike that I will possibly beat to pieces if I crash really bad Frown looks like a nice bike though, love the chartreuse!
  • + 1
 No one is forcing you guys to buy the XX1 kit w/ ENVE wheels.....you don't have to pay $10k for this bike...
  • + 5
 Your not getting the point , it has nothing to do about buying it . There are people on here with just as expensive bikes including myself .

So i just went to Universal Cycles to build up the specs of this bike , and for a grand total of $5500 thats with a coupon code added in i was able to build out this whole exact build minus the frame & fox shock . These companies are still making money off the parts too , so now im left with $5000 . so is that how much they are charging for the frame with a shock ?
  • + 1
 you aren't supporting the LBS either though. Add 30+% for supporting the LBS.
[Reply]
  • + 18
 Most people here are ranting too much about the price...guess what! This bike is their enduro race bike...top of the line enduro race bike. SC does offer cheaper bikes. And if you feel that XX1 and full on carbon is too expensive, chances are you don't realize how much fun you could have with the alu version and slx/xt setup, but you still want the XX1 and carbon and ranting about the people that can afford it makes you feel better.
Is 10k for a bike a lot of money? Yes. Is the demand there? Yes. Do you have to give your 10k to SC? No..that one is optional.
For the guys comparing motorbikes to bikes...be fair and compare top of the line with top of the line, things will look very different then.
Ride on!
  • + 5
 10k for a bike is ridiculous lol I dont care what it comes with .. companies are just pumping those prices to catch suckers and no they are not selling the top of the line bikes like hot cakes . The demand isnt there , thete is a demand for certain things but not a demand to get ripped off. I mean I paid all said and done 8k for my Knolly but never again lol .
  • + 2
 agreed!!! : A 9k moto has single wall aliminum rims, aluminum bar, aluminum frame, single pivot suspension, wire beed tires, and forks with steel stanchions.You could buy that level of MTB for under 2k. A race ready moto with all the goodies is 50-150k.
  • + 2
 Guys, it is a free market. Supply vs. demand. Santa Cruz creates the supply, we create the demand. Buy what you want and quit complaining about pricing (which is not just SC but also all those sweet components everyone seems to want).
[Reply]
  • + 11
 from the look of Scott, Rocky Mountain and now this, 650b in enduro bikes is the way to go... and Specialized comes out with a 29inch version.. good one.
  • + 1
 yes, good point me.
  • + 3
 Apparently Spec made the best 29er ever (based on the PB review). We are going to be looking at an odd situation as this all comes together. Maybe spec doesn't think it needs a 650b option, but how will the market feel about that? I bet that most of the spec riders who wanted a 29er already are looking at the stumpjumper anyway. The enduros are ridden by some hard riding guys who might not be keen on switching to 29ers, but might like 650b all right. Time will tell.
  • + 19
 first of all, well done SC, those bikes look amazing.
i think taletotell has it about right. but an interesting point is that Knolly in BC thinks that 650b may be too much for the chilcotin (160mm) but sees 650b as an optimal solution for their new carbon endorphin (140mm) out this year. Specialised put alot of research $ into 29 so it will obviously pursue a 29 solution for every bike at 160mm and below.

I think time will tell it like this..
170 and above = 26
160 = 26 or 650b
150 to 130 = 650b
120 and below = 29

there will always be people who will want to deviate from this list and thats where specialised with there different take on things will fit in. 650b is here to stay, real shame this years norco killer b's are 'snapping' though...ask the UK distributor.
  • + 2
 Its the product development cycles that led to that 155mm 29er from Specialized... they had been working on that for at least two years, and they basically got caught with their pants around their ankles again when 650B went from the fringe to the mainstream (just as they did with 29ers in the first place). They either had to drop it and throw all the money they'd spent down a toilet, or actually release it and hope to convince people that they're right and everyone else is wrong.
  • + 9
 Spec do make everyone look stupid with the 29 Enduro. They took all the ridiculous excuses "why you can't make a long travel 29er" and threw them out of the window. The lamest of those was, that there is no room for the front mech. I thought that getting of a need for one in the first place is a sign of progression in the sport.

I love Spec for that and many other things, I am putting my money on them with pride
  • + 1
 deeeight has this right. This was discussed ad nauseum in the review of the spesh 29er. On the other hand, at 6'3", I could see myself on the spesh. It will be hard to get me to give up my 650b wheels after spending a season on them. (The snow is finally melting in my yard!!!!)
  • + 5
 The reviews on the enduro 29 are actually pretty accurate. I rode one for a couple hours coming off my 26 and felt right at home. The thing rallied corners and took jumps really well. Didn't give you the normal 29r feel.
  • + 2
 I cant believe that a 29er could have the same agility while jumping that a 26 or even a 650 has. But I would fully expect that all the Syndicate team will be on 650b V10s by the beginning of the race season, they probably aren't talking about it because it would hurt the sales of the new all carbon 26 V10.
  • + 0
 You can shorten the stays and slacken the geometry all you want, but you cannot overcome the physics that RUBBER is the heaviest part of the wheels and as far as getting the bike airborne, the wheel sizes do play a role. Without monkeying around with thinner casings and manipulating air pressures and gluing tires to rims or something, you're going to reach a hard limit where simply having the "biggest" wheels isn't going to give you anymore advantages unless they push start you off the top of a mountain (so the endure 29er should be great for megavalanche) or we start putting electric-assist motors on our bikes.

As to teams, the SC intense team has already announced they're riding 650B M9s this year. No doubt Santa Cruz didn't want their VPP licensing partners to have the only VPP bikes with 650B compatibility.
  • + 1
 To go back to otiotori's point..."from the look of Scott, Rocky Mountain and now this, 650b in enduro bikes is the way to go..."

The thing that is missing right now is the 150mm travel 650b BOS Deville Fork. When that hits the market in the next 12months, the game will change...it will be applicable to the HUGE number of quality trail bikes out there (140 to 150mm whippets) like the lapierre zesty, commencal am, knolly endorphin....i think these might turn out to be the go-to Mega-avalanche bikes of the future.
  • + 2
 And oddly RockShox still hasn't made the minor adjustments to the crown to make the lyrik, domain and boxxer all 650b friendly. It is one set of lowers and a cm or change and they would have three forks that could do it. Common guys. Get on the ball.
  • + 3
 Too bad for big wheel marketing cuz Athy will kick asses on a 26" bike... The man has it dialed, at least for this year. He's got the skills, the strength and he knows all the tracks. Sorry guys.

I still want Curtis Keene to kill it for USA!
  • + 0
 Athy ? Which of the Athertons do you mean ? Its already known to GT Dealers AND the media that their new 650B bikes will be launched early summer, and that Dan will be racing enduro on 650Bs.

As to Curtis Keene...you assume he's not going to be using the new 29er S-works enduro...
  • + 3
 'Athy' is what the other two Athertons call Dan....he's the oldest.
  • + 1
 @WCartman
Athy is running a 650b GT "enduro" bike at the moment??
not 26 as you say...
dirt.mpora.com/video-clips/wideopenmag-2013-uk-gravity-enduro-series-round-1-at-afan.html
  • + 1
 That video shows the top 5 riders... this video is the interview with riders which includes comments from Neil Donoghue in 2nd on a 29er which he ONLY rode for the first time that weekend, NEVER had ridden any 29ers before he said, and Dan riding on the 650B GT Force...

dirt.mpora.com/news/dirttv-uk-gravity-enduro-rd1-chit-chatafan.html

The 26er riders in 3rd to 5th were separated in times by a third of a second total. Then its 41 seconds to 2nd place for the guy on his new 29er, and then 34 seconds to Dan on his 650B which they clearly didn't want to let the beans spill on yet during the interview so instead of video of a cleaned off bike, they edited in a still photo of the bike covered in mud.

This year its going to be all about the bigger wheels in enduro. Adapt or else.
  • + 1
 I dunno deeeight. The two top guys would be 1st and second regardless of wheel size. I think they would be first and second by a similar distance even if they were on their 26 inch bikes. Neil Donoghue said he only used the 29er because Afan is an extremely pedally track. Not a standard euro enduro track.

I think all bikes will be 650b soon enough but to be honest i think this "adapt or else" spiel is rubbish. The wheel is only marginally bigger, they are 26.8inches as opposed to 26. The difference in performance will not be huge as quite frankly the difference in the wheels rollover ability isnt very substantial. I guarantee the fast guys on 26 inch wheels wont suddenly be beaten by the slower guys on 26.8 inch wheels.
  • + 0
 Ok enough's enough... the wheel is NOT 26.8 inches as opposed to 26... when they call them 27.5s... that's the actual average size for the tires made today. The only tire for mountain biking in a 650B rim size, that's even close to 27 inches, is the Pacenti Quasi-Moto 2.0 at 27.2". I know. I own several and use them on one of my bikes. I have physically stood next to them with a tape measure and a level to measure the diameters.
  • + 3
 Well there you go. Proof that you dont actually have a clue what you are talking about. You dont measure wheel size by measuring the outside of your tyre. If that was the case then 26ers are also nowhere near 26inches in diameter. The most accurate way of measuring wheel size is by diameter of the rim

MBR did a special on 650b bikes last month. The bead seat diameter of a 26inch wheel is 559mm. The diameter of a 650b is 584mm. The diameter of a 29er is 622mm. Clearly the 650b is not right in between the two of them and is in fact much closer in size to the 26 inch. Its plain as day even looking at the three different tyres side by side. The 650b is only a little bit bigger than a 26 inch to look at but noticeably smaller than the 29er. The 650b may be a slight improvement over a 26 inch wheel in terms of rollover but it will also be heavier, fractionally less stiff and accellerate a little slower. Saying it makes 26ers obsolete makes you sound ridiculous. It may very well be a better size tyre but the difference will be very small/not noticeable for most riders. Saying it makes 26ers obsolete straight away is hysterical. I bet plenty of races all around the world this year will still be won by 26 inch wheels.

And by the way i quite like the idea of 650b.
  • + 0
 If you can't see the problem with the MBA article's method of measuring, you have the problem. Anyone who passed grade 6 science can tell they had an agenda to push with the numbers they came up with.
  • + 0
 It was also the April issue... they built a test rig to measure roll out, and then measured the tire diameters with the tape measure sitting on the 2x4s with the wheels sitting inside the channels. All the diameters were off by the exact thickness of a 2x4. That they were giving diameters that contradicted what they themselves have given in previous issues should have been clue enough but for a lot of folks it apparently isn't.
[Reply]
  • + 7
 Here's the thing. 1st off, i think thats the first great looking 27.5 bike. Congratulation SantaCruz. And its wearing decent tyres by the looks of things. But here's the thing i dont quite get and makes me think we are being sold this by the advertising men, telling the engineers to design a bike to fill a hole in the market made by the advertising men in the first place. With an decent amount of rear wheel travel it gives the designers of the frame the freedom to design a bike with more rearwards axel path, and with more rearwards axel travel the square edge bump performance advantage of a bigger wheel is reduced. Of course this has to be balanced with pedal feedback, but in theory this leaves the only advantage of the bigger wheel being a longer tyre contact patch over a 26 with the negative of having a heavier and more flexie wheel and tyre. The more travel a bike has the advantage of a bigger wheel can be reduced through design, thats why perhaps we are not seeing many 27.5 DH bike at the moment. Design is all about compromise to get the desired attributes you wanted in the first place, maybe there are multipul ways of achieving these attributes. A few years ago K9 industries made a prototype all mountain bike that had a very rewards axel path that never made it into production and everyone who rode it said its performance was absolutely unreal compared to what was available on the market at the time. So dear Santa Cruz, please make a 26in version of this frame so i dont have to have to upgrade my forks and wheels, maybe a 170mm modern day VPP version of a bullet, that would be nice.
  • + 2
 Don't kid yourself, the DH teams are all testing 650b. The 2 seconds commonly reported on DH runs is the difference between 3-4 places in rankings. Logan Binghelli (sp?) has been killing it on what many here consider a crap bike: catalog frame, flexy Dorado, and weak poor mobility 650b wheels ;( Whle the US isn't a powerhouse in the DH world, this "compromise" design has been winning at the American national level. I never heard of Logan before Rampage last year. How much of his success is because of the 2 seconds per run this bike gives him over a comparable 26" bike?

Also don't forget rearward axle paths work great on bumps, but dramatically affect pedal feedback. Everything is a compromize.
  • + 0
 Yep... I don't follow the freeride scene anymore so before the rampage coverage began and KHS was pointing out that Logan was going to be using a 650B DH prototype, really had know knowledge of the guy. Ok he was on the invite list because of his top 10 or something the previous rampage, fine. Then he places third. Ok, 650Bs can work at a big mountain freeride event, but people are still whining its not the same as DH... US National Pro DH tour has begun this season already and so far... Logan is winning over Aaron... and with Danny Aiello from KHS getting a 5th at the first race...so far, 40% of the top-5 placed DHers are on 650Bs.

The 26er camp will of course say its a fluke, just as the 29er XC camp was saying so after the first world cup XC race last year when Nino beat all the 29er riders. Except as the season progressed, he beat them 4 more times, and at the worlds, and a silver at the Olympics...
  • + 2
 Willie1, I dont know what you are trying to say? For teams not to test 650b wheels would be very foolish. If there happens to be faster they should use them, but i doubt they for all designs. And whats his faces may just have come on form just like Aaron Gwin did when he changed to Trek, its not enough empirical evidence that the wheels perform better. I dont really follow racing, i doubt i could name the top ten ranked XC or DH racers. I only really care for my riding. But one things for sure, pro racers are fast on what ever they get given to ride. And i mentioned pedal feedback, so no need to remind me. The US might not be the powerhouse for DH riders, but it is for bike brands, the vast majority of frames used are design in the US, so this 650 thing shockwaves through the rest of the world via US manufacturers.

Deeeight, you probably sleep with 650b wheels you are so obsessed with them, so you opinion is not objective enough to be valid.

From smirgski comment www.bikemag.com/gear/exclusive-video-bronson-santa-cruzs-new-650b-trail-bike

So it was driven from not wanting to be left out of market share, not on any performance benefit. So i presume that SantaCruz is intending to sell more whole bikes? Rather than frames. Makes business sense i guess.

The thing is what Joe Graney say at the end about wheel size "who cares", well im in the market for a new frame, and i care about wheel size. I dont want to upgrade my perfectly good rims, selection of tyres for all condition and forks as they are perfectly good. To do that i may as well just buy a whole new bike as it will cost the same. Maybe the days of selling frames does not make enough money any more. Looks like Intense will end up having my money.
  • + 2
 @mozz: your comment: "you probably sleep with 650b wheels you are so obsessed with them, so you opinion is not objective enough to be valid" suggests that if I find something to work best and advocate it my opinion can't be valid. Maybe he loves them because they rock? Also his evidence that they are taking off and winning also suggests that it in empirical. I hope 650b takes off. I like the options. It makes sense for people who are more into stability than into twitchiness, but not into the limits imposed by 29ers. Also, your axle path argument makes sense except these axle paths are going to be the same as a lot of high performing 26er bikes. It's chain stays are shorter than the Nomad's.
The amount of added rubber is an issue. The only one, but a big one. I am hoping to see lighter tyres coming out. In the mean time, I run a DH minion on the front for traction this time of year anyway so I don't think the added tire weight of a 650b would bother me much.
  • + 2
 @taletotell. Deeeight has a habit of bringing up 650b wheels even out of direct context context in articles on the home page. To the point where i have question if he as a vested intrest in promoting the size (he says he hasn't). He really really likes them. Hence not being objective.
  • - 1
 @Mozz; I'll say it again. In race conditions, same rider, same bike, same day excepting 650b /26" back to back comparisons. 650b averages 1.5 to 2.5 seconds faster than 26". Doesn't sound like a lot, but that is the difference between 3rd and 1st oir more. Top 5 is usually within 2-3 seconds of each other.
  • + 1
 Willie1: What about for the non-racer? Strictly, which one is more fun on the trail? A great 26 (Yeti SB 66C would be my choice) vs a similar 650B?
  • + 1
 I have both 26" and 650b. I think the 650b is funner. Flow on the trail is greatly improved. Climbing, descending, all improved. Traction is improved. The only noticeable downfall is in a REALLY tight switchback, but the Mojo SL is pretty good there to start with.
  • + 1
 @jon123rjk... difference becomes then, the first to clear the climb without spinning out... the first to make it down the technical line without the dabbing... and the one to set the fastest speed thru the rock garden. If you want to be the slower rider, keep on the 26" bike then.
  • + 0
 I looked up the results of that DH race at Bootleg Canyon. The difference between Logan and Gwin was .16 of a second. That's much smaller than 1-2 seconds.
  • + 1
 Yes, but Logan wasn't as fast a DH racer as Aaron before he switched wheel sizes...that's the point... the racers who make the swap are seeing much faster times than they were on 26ers. The racers (or teams more precisely) who are resisting the swap, are suddenly finding the several second margins they routinely had over other riders, evaporating.
  • + 0
 exactly! Gwinn was beating everyone last year by 2+ seconds, and logan comes out of no where and starts beating the champ. If Gwin was on 650b, he would be 2s ahead of logan.
  • + 2
 Now you are straight making crap up. Sometimes people get better and it has nothing to do with the equipment. Experiance makes a big difference. Maybe Gwin had a bad day. Maybe Logan had a good day. A tenth of a second is the difference between winning and losing. To assume that the bigger wheel size is the only reason is very Ad Hoc.
  • + 1
 Its consistent with the DATA that is coming in. Last year, no one could touch Gwinn. Minnar, Smith, and many others, then some unknown guy comes and beats Gwinn several times on what is considered "inferior" equipment. There are many more variables, but the teams doing the testing are all reporting about a 2s advantage. Maybe EVERYONE ELSE has it wrong, and you are the only one who knows the truth about the inferiority of speed with 650b. I see... That makes much more sense.

The world is flat!! The world is flat!!! The world is flat!!!! Iknow its true, stop showingme science and numbers!! They are all marketing BS!!!! Smile
  • + 2
 Links to the data or it didn't happen. All iv seen so far is a paragraph on the new fox 40 which is far from definitive.
  • + 4
 Wasn't Gwin riding for a different company last year? That seems to be a pretty big variable to change.
  • + 0
 2nd gravity tour has run, 2nd place for Aaron, 3rd for Logan, 4th for Danny. Logan still leads the points series. Next race is at Sea Otter in 3 weeks.
  • + 1
 Mozz- do some more reading. There's a lot of info out there on this topic.
  • - 1
 Well the usual places I check for information are not showing any signs of this data. Checked factory jackson, wide open, nsbm, pink bike, ride monkey, vital, bike radar. Only signs of this data are then results that are on roots and rain. And that doesn't tell me who's was running what. If you could point me in the direction it would be greatly appreciated.
  • + 0
 Its appeared on the home page...that ain't no dh track! It was just the right bike for the trail. Be interesting to so what people run at sea otter. Specialized could run either the enduro evo, enduro, enduro 29, status, or a light build demo c.
  • + 2
 Keep trying. If you don't just look at the pictures, and read the articles, its there.
  • - 1
 Well I'm not going to try and hunt down obscure 650 fanboi websites, I'm calling bs on this supposed data that you claim is out there.
  • + 2
 mtbr is an obscure website now ? There are numerous brand managers on there you could actually ask, quite a few actual bike designers and brand owners also for that matter. Course what do they know that some hack from the UK on pinkbike doesn't know better.
  • + 0
 Mtbr is very xc centric and does not represent the typical type of riding found in the UK. For most people on this side of the pond it is an obscure website, just like I'm sure some of the big euro website are to you. It used to be you had to sign up to the website to even view their forums, and from what I've seen its full of people that solely wear Lycra, converted roadies and people that jam 650 wheels into forks that are not designed for them and think 2mm clearance to the fork brace is acceptable. Now I'm not sure if your trying to call me a hack, but your rebuttals to my original premises that the advantages of a bigger wheel reduce with increased travel have been very poor with little logic, and with no base in science or math. All you've and your mate have pointed to so far is a sham dh race with a long uphill section half way through the track, and some mysterious data thats online somewhere you are not willing divulge...
  • + 2
 I love how the two lads are so insistent that it was all to do with the bigger wheels on the bike and nothing to do with the bike being 10lbs lighter than Gwins DH bike or that it was a trail bike. Two pretty important variables if you ask me.
  • + 2
 Any bike that pedals well is going to make up a ton of time on a long flat.
  • + 1
 See- you haven't read the parts where everyone who tests the sizes back to back come up with the same conclusion. Its not just this race. This is just one of three recent races/events where larger wheel size riders are beating people they historically didn't.

The actual "fanboys" are the guys claiming 26" is good enough when thay haven't tried 650b yet.

Mozz- again, if you read the past 6 months of articles on bike releases and product development, the info is there repeatedly. It is consistent with what those of us who actually own 650b bikes feel and experience. Regarding travel- sure if you want to set up your suspension so active you lose all of your pedaling efficiency. I personally don't want to do that, but you might be OK with it. The inverse is also true, with slacker and lower geometry, you are mimicking the ride of a larger wheel bike with a 26" wheel. If you actually understand what changes in geometry do, then this is obvious.
  • + 3
 Last year a local super D was billed as DH. There happend to be a xc race too and 4 lycra dudes decided to race the DH just for kicks. On the descent section the xc guys were slow enough to be a joke, but at the end the last quarter mile was a sprint slightly up hill. Those four guys won the top four spots. Number 5 was a local on a 6". I was number 6 on a 6". Behind me were a bunch of DH bikes. Any track with a pedally section will make DH bikes a bad choice.
I think 650b is going to be the new enduro standard. It will be faster on most tracks with a few exceptions. They are just faster most of the time, but it didn't make the difference here.
Races like that annoy me. I was disappointed because if the features had been too gnarly to just roll through the average xc guys would have backed out. 2 of them still would have won it (they did the jumps and one of them was just awesome and the other was pretty good on his big 29er) and I would have been in the top 5, the ones who actually got cash.
  • + 0
 Were they OLDER riders? Remember its only twenty years since DH was ridden on bikes just like XC racers used, at speeds up to 60mph down gravel and dirt fire roads coming off the tops of REAL mountains.
  • + 3
 The older two were the slower two and they were typical xc. There was a 5th xc biker who endoed on some sticks and threatened to sue. He was with the old guys. The top 2 were young. The fastest was on a 5" ibis, and I think he might have won it either way. He had a second bike in the xterra if he wanted it and his camp was outfitted like he was a hardcore racer. I think the other bike was a 29er stumpjumper. The rest of us were novices compared to him.
  • + 0
 @Willie1

Woow, just woow. Now this show us you know absolutely nothing about suspension set up, and you expect me to hear your arguments for a bigger wheel? " Regarding travel- sure if you want to set up your suspension so active you lose all of your pedaling efficiency" The amount of suspension travel has absolutely nothing to do with the efficiency of the drive train. It just means that your bike it not sitting at its designed optimal ride height. Setting you suspension at the rear too hard will just make the bike jack up when pedalled hard on the majority of suspension designs and at that point you might as well buy a hard tail because you rear wheel will be tracking the ground with the same efficiency. When was the last time you bottomed the thing out? Because if your not doing it occasionally then your set up is really poor.

If you really want to improve you drive train efficiency in most cases drop a few teeth on the chainring size, this will increase the moment arm of the chain line against the main pivot location (be it actual or virtual), this is exactly what i do with my Trek, i run a 34T for most of England, and bolt a 38T or Scotalnd, Wales and the Alps. Running the 34T really means you can mash the shit out of the pedals in the first 3 gears without any noticeable bob and buy the time you're up to speed and further down the cassette the pedal feedback in the gnar is minimal. Its a trade off. Pedal feedback and drive train efficiency are inversely proportional gear for gear.
  • + 0
 cont

All high performance suspension should be set up at starting point of 0.8* the natural frequency (if you dont understand the maths of natural frequency wiki is actually pretty good) of the system front and rear (Yes slightly under damped), this put the minimum amount of energy into the damper even though it oscillates about the sag point a very small amount. This means all your damping systems are less likely to over heat when really pushed and your damping stays consistan for longer and also helps cancel out other parasitic losses. From there its tune to course and have the rebound as fast as you dare.

Slacker and lower geometry does not mimic that of 29ers at all. Just look at Sam Hills Sunday from back in the day, that was the bike that started the the low and slack ball rolling, not trying to emulate a 29ers. Slackening head angles is something i have been playing around with since 2006 with the first prototype ARC cups from K9 on a Sunday to try and recreate Hills geo. Waaaay before canecreek even thought of its version. The main common feel between the 2 is a function of a longer wheel base making the bike stable and slowing the steering through a greater turning radius (ackerman). A modern bike has lots more mechanical trail then they used to. On a 29er the fork offset is designed to reduce mechanical trail to overcome the gyroscopic effect of a larger wheel, the polar opposite of modern 26in geometry which has been increasing.
  • + 0
 cont

So what are you reading for these reviews then? Bike magazine? that garbage publication full of lycra, articles splits across different pages of the magazine, which actually has more adverts than articles? I'm pretty sure they stopped importing that into the UK many years ago. Last time i saw that magazine in the UK Brett Tippy was riding a Specalized BigHit with a 24" rear wheel. The only publication which has done back to back test that i know of is Dirt, where they pitted a tracer29 Vs, a carbine26. And a Trek Slash Vs. Rumblefish. The Tracer29 beat the Carbine, but the Slash beat the Rumblefish. Over all the Slash had the fastest time, but not in every sector of the Enduro they set up. SOOO for the third time, if you could kindly point me in the direction of these reviews i will gladly read them and then form my own opinion. If not i'll presume you cant or wont or you just being an arse.

Im still yet to see any 650 in shops over here, i'll take one on a test ride day asap just from curiosity. AND YOU ARE STILL IGNORING MY ORIGINAL POINT, do you just like reading you own word online?
  • + 0
 I should add that for a living Im a vechicle dynamics and design engineer, i spend all my day in Adams, Catia and cars. If you have real question about dynamics, natural frequencies, critical damping ect id happily answer them, but do it on my profile. Im sure people are fed up of these rants.
  • + 3
 it was pretty long and I'll admit I didn't understand enough to explain it to someone else. It proves you are opperating above my head.
I, like most people, have more a head for narrative. That is why article reviews are so effective. I haven't seen a ton of articles that claimed science or were particularly balanced in their approach, sacrificing validity in most cases of any comparison. There are exceptions though.
I did read a review of three jamis hardtails in three wheel sizes. They liked the 650b best, but it seemed to be about preference. Then there is that PB article in which they took the three sizes between three guys and rode the same trail 3 times. The author was unimpressed with the 650b, though the other two liked it with one of them preferring it over 29 or 26. They all got the fastest time on their trail with the 29er (but slowest descent) and the writer had the most fun on a 26. The 26 took the techy descent fastest (for all of them) and the 650b averaged between. In the end one guy preferred the 29, one preferred the 650b, and the last liked 26. Seems like it comes down to taste for enjoyment of the ride.
Whether you can crank out win after win will depend on where your strengths lay. If you are super fit, but need help on the tech maybe 26 is your thing. If you are not super fit, but can throw around big wheels then a 29er might make up the difference. If you are neither nor than maybe 650b is for you. If you are both than use a 29er and go even faster while whipping around those huge wheels like a bmx. Congrats you are liam neeson.
I have no math to back this up, only what the reviewers say.
  • + 1
 Mozz, since you hit on some of the relevant points, I will ask you to consider the fact that most suspension bikes either use propedal type damping, or mechanical manipulation (DW link) to "influence" the feedback to and from the drivetrain. Since this is the case, the wheel size has a bigger difference on the chassis unless you remove the hydraulic or mechanical manipulation. What you say is partially true, excepting the efects of leverage ratios, torque transfer, and momentum and inertial influences. Mechanically, and mathematically, a pedal stroke at a certain torque will effect a certain amount of force on a wheel, that force is calcualted ovet the leverage of the suspension, which is different at various travel lenghts. The end result of these variables results in different spring rates for coil, and different air pressures and chamber volumes depending on the leverage and travel. Considering leverage is manipulated by shock placement and linkage design, there are so many more variables than what you are talking about.
  • + 1
 Continued:

In addition, suspension manipulates the "angle of attac' of the wheel over a bump, depending on all the variables listed above. Tire volume and casing repsonsiveness have an inflience as well. You can mathematically make a 26" and 29" bike have near identical feel over the same bump by manipulating tire variables, leverage variables, geometry variables, suspension variables, and wheel diameter variables. To KISS, imagine an angle of attack based on tire diameter, the add two teeter totters on the ramp that represent spring rate and damping (leave out the other variables to prevent you from losing the concept). By manipulating the variables and responsiveness of each one, you can end up with the exact same effective angle of attack. This is separare from the feel generated by momentum, which influences out theoretical ramps and teeter totters, but this is where the engineers look at balancing amount of rubber/vs/aluminum., spoke count, etc. to minimize the differecne in feel.

BTW, I weld my own frames.
  • + 0
 13 Feb 2013
@Willie1 Are you liking reading you own words again???

1st Propedal is shit! Lock outs thats a different game, But cranking up the low speed compression only serves to mask shit suspension designs. As soon as you get hauling all this low speed compression becomes a hinderance and only really ends up heating the oil in the damper, making its performance inconsistent.
The mechanical manipulation you talk is the drivetrain efficiency i was talking about, its effect is on every single full suspension bike, bar a very few with odd drivetrains. All twin link and vpp designs do is make the chains torque relationship away from linear relationship which most single pivots have to a non linear, usually with the effect of the pedal feedback getting less and less as the suspension moves away from its sag point. Wheel size has absolutely minimal to no influence on this contrary to what you say its just the vertical height of the pivot Vs. the vertical hight of the chain torque line the fraction increase in unsprung weight is negligible in relationship to the moment arm.

The sentace you wrote "Since this is the case, the wheel size has a bigger difference on the chassis unless you remove the hydraulic or mechanical manipulation" and all below its incoherent. Im not sure what you are trying to say? Leverage ratio is not even slightly complicated, even if you go for a rising rate or falling or a bit of both. The tricks come in critically damping the the wheel rate at any give wheel travel throughout a range of wheel velocities the bike sees in operation....
  • + 0
 Cont.
The "angle of attac" thing you describe(poorly) is bollocks. Wheels are round some are bigger that others that gives them more time to react to square edge hits at the same speed in comparison to smaller wheels.
Tyres are springs that suffer hysteresis, lets move on from there as that get very complicated very fast and this is Pinkbike.
Im not sure what a teeter totter is, i think Joey in Friends was eating them once, is it some sort of cake? And to be honest it all reads like dribble from then on, i think you are trying to describe a rewards axel path with a smaller wheel feeling like a more normal wheel path with a bigger wheel? And throwing inertia in there for good luck? Who's know. And im far beyond caring at this time in the evening.

You weld your own frames, cool. Lets see them! I did a 4 year advanced apprenticeship in fabrication making parts and exhausts for various race teams team before i went to University. Coolest thing i've made is qualifying exhausts for a 3 litre V10 F1 engine out of 0.3mm Inconel 625 and TIG welded it together (you know you doing crazy thin shit when you are only taking you tig set only up to 12 amps and you base is 5). 20 grand a pop per car back in 2001 and binned due to thermal cycling as soon as F1 qualifying had finished, absolutely criminal.

Still no links to all this data you are on about? Thought as much.
  • + 1
 Mozz, I think you are making most of this up. Anyone who doesn't understand the basics of the physics as described here (confusing wheel size with suspension leverage, not getting the variable forces the suspension absorbs and exerts as the trail irregularities are encountered, not seeing how the majority of bicycles use some sort of manipulation to minimize pedal bob, just because you think you know all of the variables.) I agreed with what you said, but is is WAY too simplistic. A bicycle rolling is nothing more than a sequence of mathematical calculations of various forced acting on a mass with a certain center of gravity. If you cannot see the relationship between the forces that are exerted on the mass as influenced between wheel size, suspension movement, leverage through frame geometry variables, and how the simple final force to overcome a bump (or a corner or whatever force you want to measure) in front of a wheel can be EXACTLY the same when the variables are manipulated. Sorry about the teeter totter- it was what my high school teacher used to represent the variable forces that are being measured. Example: as the spring rate goes up, the force to roll the wheel over the ledge goes up, as the mass has to overcome gravity, meaning the effective angle of attack (changing the amount of force required) increases. A stiffer fork has the same effect on overcoming a bump that a smaller wheel does. This is VERY SIMPLISTICALLY why a 29er can get away with shorter, stiffer suspension. Smaller wheel, more compliant suspension, or larger wheel with less compliant suspension (either can, with controlling all other variables, result in the same forces.)
  • + 1
 The larger wheel rolls easier over the resistance, needing less movement in the suspension to have the same net force at the end. You seem to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of the forces involved, but the net here is calculated through many forces acting simultaneously. Do up the equations and prove me wrong, but you cant. You are omitting some very important variables and oversimplifying it. I break it down for you. Hopefully that works so you can see what you are missing. You actually are way beyond what almost anyone else at PB has tried to show scientifically or mathematically with this whole debate. I just hate it when the math or science is incorrect.
  • - 1
 Mate your talking utter crap now. You comprehension of some quite basic physics is wrong, and your terms are even mixed up within your own paragraphs. You are talking without saying anything comprehendible. If you went to a university to study engineering you should ask for a refund. You seem to be getting all confused about springs reacting forces, and the slower energy transfer rate afforded by a larger wheel.

This is not a place to teach you physics. I tell you what read a book and educate yourself. Tony Foale has made some great motorcycle chassis engineering books and many of the theories described can be directly transfered to pedal powered bicycles. Once you've read them, maybe move on to Milliken and Milliken's Race Car Vehicle Dynamics to get a Jedi level of understanding springs, dampers, and the physics underlying any chassis dynamics of any vehicle.

Still like any good troll, you are going to have to get the last word/rant in at this point. Dont waste your time writing a long reply, im not going to bother reading it. I bid you fare well.
  • + 0
 I just figured it out, Mozz is protour's new account name.
  • + 1
 too funny. Another self proclaimed engineer. The last one got banned from PB because he was INSISTING heavy objects fall faster than light ones. He trolled these threads spewing his crap. I am not an engineer, but I read a lot, and borrow my brother's engineering texts on a regular basis. He is a p eng. I keep the principles in mind when designing my frames, and do the math to make sure the tubing choice is adequate for the rider. The forces on the frame are all mathematically verifiable, and can be compared to the tube and joints properties. If anyone wants to, look up the points I made. They are all valid.
  • + 1
 @Willie and @Deeeight - I guess you two really need to explain yourselves to all the people here why you are such zealots of 650B. You are likely to be the world's biggest troll food suppliers for those endless f*cking wheel size debates.

Your action is as stupid and pointless as of people who say that "29ers are gay" or shout "26 for life". It does not matter on which side of the barrier you stand, it is the fact how much you fight over nothing
  • + 1
 wcartman- except there is actual experience with the different sizes that most posting do not have, and there is physics that actually verifies what is happening. Trolling is staring arguments for the sake of an argument. I fully understand I cannot change a simpleton's mind any more than one can reason with a religious fundamentalist. However, the FACTUAL information has to be presented, or all that shows up is the propoganda.
  • + 2
 Whatever suits you mate, you know... just sayin' and stuff, endless arguing is pointless no matter the case and parties involved. There is absolutely nothing to win here. More than half of the hype power is generated by forumers, regardless of their knowledge of the subject. Just toss a penny between them and watch them fight to death.

And this recent "Troll" nomenclature heh - no offence man, but since when being a geek became more noble? You two sound like damn science geeks doing experiments and shit. I've ridden bikes with all wheel sizes from 20" to 29" - it's different bikes for different people in different terrains - there is nothing more to say. To hell with the guy saying that this and that is the best weapon for this kind of riding. What the f*ck is "the kind of riding?!" It's a bullshit invented by DH wannabies who's bikes cannot be used effectively on anything else than a f*cking DH course.

Back in 2004, I bought a Spec Enduro and went for my first trip to Whistler. People in the park were telling me to watch out on that bike, it's sketchy and they've seen ones breaking on XC comps! Look where we are now - just compare it's geo to current "NU school trail bikes". Don't be so "this and that will be the best" cuz - we'll see.

Peace!
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  • + 8
 how the fack do mountain bikes cost more than a brand new 450 dirt bike?!?
  • + 1
 theyre carbon bra
  • - 3
 A 9k moto has single wall aliminum rims, aluminum bar, aluminum frame, single pivot suspension, wire beed tires, and forks with steel stanchions.You could buy that level of MTB for under 2k. A race ready moto with all the goodies is 50-150k.
  • - 2
 Try to pedal that dirt bike.

It is much more expensive to make light parts that are still strong enough to handle speed to approach that of a motobike. It really is, especially when you make just a few of them.

You can make and sell a functional bike for $100. They are in every Walmart. It is twice as heavy and it will fall apart if ridden in anger. It is not like it is a global conspiracy.

That said, with a bit of shopping you can get pretty much 95% of performance for around $3K. Which is in line with many sporting toys.

Tell me what, why does a golf putter cost $300?
  • + 7
 I'm sure this has been re hashed to death but i've got to speak up-

1 Pro MX bikes are $30,000-70,000. Stock top of the line MTB's are just a pair of unobtainable tires and next year's suspension away from what the Big Boys ride.- 90% Pro race ready.

2 $3000 gets you more bike then ever before. It may not be titanium/carbon/XTR but its still better than the very best money could buy 10 years ago. Should the bike industry stop innovating so that no one will ever feel bad about not having XX1/Enve?
  • - 1
 There is zero truth to anything said here. You should really look into moto a little more before comparing the two. Stock dirtbikes are incredible pieces of engineering and are virtually race ready at the highest level right off the showroom floor. As for those single ply tires, the 2013 CRF450R comes stock with Dunlop MX51's that tires MSRP is anywhere from $90 to $100 and is the same stuff the pro's run. Your arguments are irrelevant.
  • - 2
 You should really look into bicycles before comparing them to those porky chunks of metal that need gasoline to move around.

How stupid is to compare two completely unrelated pieces of equipment with drastically different purposes and requirements. The only thing in common is that they got two wheels. Why do not you compare bike to a washing machine - you know you can get a very good one for just around one thousand $..
  • + 2
 @sburack. Look up dungeys or villipotos bike before you compare a national level bicycle to a national level moto. Krispy is referring to privateer bikes, the full factory bikes exceed 100k.
  • + 7
 IMHO the main reason MTB's are relatively expensive is because of low production rates. There is only one size for a dirt bike (sadly i'm 6'4" so I look like a giant on mine) and only 5 brands. With so many brands/sizes/types of MTB's production rates are much much lower and therfore more expensive. Sadly its a tradeoff MTBers have, tons of options but pricey. If you need more evidince of this look at cars, they are ridiculous cheap for being huge and packed with tech. But hey i just answered my own question, I guess i am a little frustrated I can't afford a new carbon MTB!
  • + 3
 Also, I think its a great comparison. Pro MTB's and Pro Moto'ers use PRODUCTION Frames! But both use factory unattainable suspsension, brakes, transmision/shifters ect. Also dirt bikes have to use the factory motor cases, although not much else is stock. Small stuff like bars, grips, ect is stock or at least avaible for purchase.
  • + 1
 And the fact that there are dozens of bikes companies offering hundreds of finely tuned and customized options is the proof that pricing is efficient. You can get a $100 frame, or you can get $5000 custom frame, or anything in between. Frame I ride - Nicolai - welded in small batches, in multitude of options by a small shop in Germany. I doubt they are stupidly profitable.

It is a highly specific product and way of production. You got to be severely silly not to see the difference.
  • + 5
 Finally someone gets it. Economies of scale. There are far more dirt bikes sold by the few big manufacturers than there are mountain bikes by the hundreds of small bike companies. Dirt bikes are sold all around the world, they are used for everything from racing to farming and a lot of the parts are interchangable. Mountain bikes are sold in tiny numbers by comparison.
  • + 1
 I have been following moto since 1982. In 1985, the AMA passed the "production rule" which was intended to level the playing field between the factory sponsored racers and the non sponsored racers. It increased the pressure to produce a race worthy package every year as it was now the basis for what the teams got to use. The frame engine cases, number of gears, and cylinder must be production run items. The suspension components must be available for sale to the general public. The rest is often hand machined, custom built etc. Yamaha used a plastic 4th gear with a block off to meet the rules when saving weight in the late 90s with the early 4 strokes. Pistons, cranks, transmission gears, seats, handlebars, wheelsm clutches, exhaust are all often replaced with handmade items or custom machined items. Showa, a suspension manufacturer noted the only sold 1set of factory forks in their history, even though they are listed in the catalog. Comparing a showroom bike to the MTB equivalent of a factory bike with top of the line handbuilt wheels, high end transmission, and cockpit items isn't in any way accurate.
  • + 1
 1982 is an important number here. Somewhat modern FS bikes showed up some 15 years later. It takes time to engineer low cost. Current production techniques on low volume carbon parts are very, very inefficient. They will improve. For more established technologies, like aluminum frames - you get quite a bit more for you money.
  • + 1
 Perfectly put @hodakaracer96 . I'm by no means saying the pricing of mountain bikes isn't justifiable because I know very few people in this industry are getting rich. I just find it funny that someone could think there isn't incredible amounts of engineering that goes into stock motos. It all has to do with the amount of units of a particular model sold. If all of our bikes(XC,AM,DH, etc.) all used the same engine block and frame our pricing would be much different. @willie1, the Ryans bikes are hardly a fair comparison to the privateer bikes who make up a majority of the field. Did Andrew Short not get his best finish of the year at A3 on a very near stock 450 just after loosing his factory bike? Ok, sorry Pinkbike. Rant over. No one on gives a damn about moto. Apples to Oranges.
  • + 2
 Honda has been running the same engine design since 2002 or so? 10 years. Yamaha ran their last design for 10 years approx also. The suspension designs have been stagnant since the early 90s. In the early 80s, there was a lot of R&D- single shocks with many linkage designs, powervalves, fork cartridges, liquid cooling. In the late 90s. the 4 strokes came in, but they were single cylinder versions of the F1 engines. It was borrowed technology.

I'm not saying bicycles are more engineered, but they are going through rapid evolution, which prevents using one design for 10 years- unless you are Kona, and read the comments on them when reviews are presented.
  • + 1
 You can read all you want about Kona but the new process is the best enduro bike I've ever ridden. Couldn't care less what others have to say, especially if I can out ride them.
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  • + 3
 My initial reaction was purely to the price and how crazily expensive bikes are becoming. Then I see the comments dominated by this very topic, including the comparison to the cost of a dirt bike which has FAR more to it, particularly an ENGINE!! Enough is enough already, I love mountain biking but I can only spend so much of my annual income on it. A $10k pushie is insanity, no matter how fancy the frame and components. I like that the mountain biking community isn't made up of and dominated by wealthy snobs with endless budgets, but if the market keeps going up and up, will it slowly cut out those in a lower economic demographic from being able to enjoy a great bike on the trail?
  • + 1
 lawmowers have engines. so do chainsaws. Engines are not cutting edge technology and are probably one of the cheapest parts of a moto bike. Its all to do with economies of scale . If they sell more bikes then they will become cheaper. When mtb becomes as big as moto then we can complain.
  • + 1
 The total material in a moto engine is worth less than $100.00 in its raw form. You can buy more basic but LC 200cc 5 speed 4 valve engines on ebay for $300.00. It really is a mute point regarding the engine.
  • + 1
 Ok maybe the engine was a bad point to use. I still think it could be said that many companies are seeing great profits and are capitalizing (that's why they exist right, to make money) on the growing popularity of the sport and the rapid advancement in technology to continue to bring up prices of bikes that are predominantly being manufactured en masse in Asia. Naturally they offer a number of models with different spec levels, but at some point it has to top-out somewhere. You can see it in parts as well, the way you can buy umpteen different levels of drivetrain or brake components, from cheap to bastardly expensive, how much difference is there really? perhaps noticeable from one end to the other from the user perspective, but what about cost to produce? I always loved that a fork would sell for a grand new in the store, but I could buy a new bike thats well spec'd with the same fork for under $3k. Of course no one is forcing anyone to spend the money, and there are tonnes of great bikes out there that are more affordable for those of us with less disposable cash, I just can't help but laugh at how the top of the range seems to grow and grow and grow...
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  • + 2
 I don't understand all the excitement about this bike, intense its already offering the tracer or carbine 275, which its a VPP 650b enduro bike in carbon and Alu with great performance and handling and the top of the line it's around the 5k, ohh and this Bronson looks like a cheaper carbon copy of the intense
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  • + 7
 Looks like a vagina
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  • + 2
 lots of whiners complaining about the price of bikes AGAIN. you don't HAVE to buy the TOP of the range build. you don't NEED ENVE rims. buy USED. buy a cheaper bike. work harder, get a job (or two), save some money, drink/party less, etc

go and whine to Ferrari about their pricing....nobody from Ferrari will care about your whining. there's a top end in every market (designer, boutique, limited edition, niche) just happens to be one in MTB too. people will still buy this high end stuff and buy their ENVE wheel sets. whatever, good luck to those that can afford. personally this useless whining and snivelling about prices pisses me off

too many broke teenybopper kids whining on PB about bikes and MTB in general. also no, this is not MX/Moto - the volumes are way less, the market is smaller, and has less commercial and sponsorship dollars flowing around. stop comparing oil and water. zzzz

/rant
  • + 1
 Your comparison is about as dumb as you . 10k for a bike better come with 10k blowjobs. Im complaining about the price cuz companies are just trying rape people .. there is no reason a fully hi end bike should cost more then 5k .
  • + 0
 you won't get it til you understand business, marketing, and consumer behaviour. til then, keep on failing and ranting about prices
  • + 5
 No I do get it , but these companies are getting greedy ... But then again I just spent around 8k to build my Knolly and the frame wasn't made in the USA or Canada , so you catch my drift ? A lot of parts are manufactured very cheap but the marketing bs and hype is what makes people pay .
  • + 2
 Buying a frame (especially when they blow out last year model) and shopping for top end components on the web is significantly cheaper - and you get to pick the exact kit you want, not which supplier offered a better deal. If you an enthusiast and spending 5K plus on a bike it is the way to go.

Two of my nicer bikes did cost less to me together than a single complete in a store. All the good parts one can find.
  • + 4
 Bahahaha 10k bjs coming with a bicycle. You, Sir, win quote of the day.
  • + 0
 When Giant released the first generation carbon Anthem, due to the cost of the molds and despite the hefty price tag, they lost money on every one (but it was proof of concept an gaining a reputation as a high-end manufacturer that made the loss bearable). I would say that ten grand is about right, and not a rip off.
  • + 0
 "Raping" customers is a good way to keep a company in business. Satying in business requires establishing margins that pay the bills, pay the employees, and doesn't lose out to competition who has better pricing. That is the basis for pricing. There is too much competition in cycling for a company to survive by "raping" its customers.

I custom built a Mojo SL a few years back, and the retail prices of everything would have come in at about 10k. I boulght last years moder every component I could. I have full XX, Formula brakes, and carbon wheels with Hope hubs. I don't see the pricing as out of line for the market segment the top line bikes are in. Stop bitching and buy the SLX version.
  • + 1
 Most companies that get greedy fail within time , meaning this 10.5k bike package will fail. They might sell a few a year but thats about it . Do you suck dick for SC ? Or just swing on their nuts ? Im not bitching , its called freedom of speech here in the USA buddy . I already got my own build but thanks for the offer.
  • + 1
 Aedabber - freedom of speech indeed. You just showed up your ignorance to the whole world to see. Had you been born that dumb, or was it the upbringing?
  • + 0
 aedubber- you must have only looked at the pictures where they listed the price range. I don't think they plan to sell ONLY the 10k version. Wink I suspect they only plan to sell a few at that component spec. They will sell mostly slx and XT, and SRAM XO.
  • + 0
 Ignorance to whom ? Cuz I speak what I feel like saying ? I could careless what you think cuz I can say what I want and voice my opinion the same way you do.
  • + 2
 Who pays 10K for a 10K bike away? You need a buddy in a bike shop.
10K bikes do sell. S-works Epic case in point. or about 20K road bikes!
Nwe what would a MX motobike with carbon frame and wheels and titanium gearbox cost?
  • + 1
 Most parents teach their kids that they should think before they speak by the time you go to grade 1. People can say what they want, but they should also listen when they run into someone who has actually studied a subject and has real world experience with it. You CAN say whatever you want, but don't be upset when someone calls you out on it and shows you how ignorant you are.
  • + 0
 Its only ignorant cuz you think it is .. Its my own opinion to say that a bike of that caliber being sold for 10.5k is not right cuz they are just jacking up the prices and being greedy . I never once said i cant afford it , i can buy it if i wanted to but i think its not right that companies seem to think its okay to keep pushing the prices up and up since only a select few of people would be able to purchase a bike for 10k and up. If they sold at a more reasonable price it would be a win win for everyone as more production means bigger orders and cheaper costs ... Demands would be so much higher , companies would be selling them like hot cakes and making money... You know how it is , if you need to make 5000 frames it will cost you X amount rather then 50 frames and costing you Z amount and you can sell at a cheaper rate . But most the parts are made overseas on cheap labor , thats my point ..I can careless who buys it and who dont .
  • + 1
 jeez....the point is that the bike IS available at a crazy high end price but you don't NEED to pay that much...lots of variations on price available. load of nothing comments being dragged out right here
  • + 1
 Last comment- trying to help you look less silly. Ignorance is lack of knowledge. You have no idea of the actual cost of the bicycle and components, the corporate expenses, advertising, race team expenses etc. Since you do not know what all of those variables are, your statement is simply ignorant. The laws of the free market sugegst companies can only stay in business if they have a desirable product, and it is priced competitively with other similar products. If Specialized could make a similar product $500- $1000 cheaper they will sell a lot more. Wait they do and they do!!!! Id SC wants to steal some market share, but not go out of business, do you not think they would sell this bike for 6k? They can't because they will lose money. Not understanding these simple principles is what defines your ignorance.
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  • + 6
 27.5'' ? 10 000$? no, thx.
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  • + 1
 I'm not against 650B, I'd like to try one, however having ridden 29ers and motorcycles with a wheel about an inch bigger I know that the difference is pretty minimal. Although I'm sure that 650B will be a great bike for enduro DH etc.

The problem is when you add a new standard you complicate things by 100%. Look at forks, can I have a 140mm travel, 20mm axle, 650B 1.5mm taper? So you go to a shop and ask, there's almost a certainty that they won't have what you want. So you have to ask them to order it, thing is you can order it too, get it quicker and pay less. Thing is it's getting so complicated that online retailers often don't have what you want either.
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  • + 1
 I can see you guys looking at top of the line bikes and saying that you can't afford it, in that case compare them to top of the line motorcycles and cars and see if you end up with a different result Smile On the other hand it also makes me kinda feel bad about the fact I can't afford one my self, but the way to solve that is to make more money not to cry about it.( For the record I do not support buying overpriced stuff in any case)
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  • + 1
 To 650B or not to 650B, that is the question,
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks...
etcetera..etcetera
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  • + 1
 Yesterday I did a Santa Cruz demo and no Blur TL's so this could be real, comparing the geometry to the Intense Carbine SL they are very close the headtube is a little longer on Intense, and wheel base is a little longer on Santa Cruz very similar.
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  • + 1
 Ok, firstly Wille1 you are such a retard, if you are getting your mx bike rebuilt 2 times a season and doing a clutch every weekend maybe you need to learn how to ride. $150k for a factory bike? Jeez they must get pretty disappointed when a privateer pulls a holeshot on a $20k build. I would like see an mx engine that had 25k spent on it, i reckon it would be about 1% better than getting pro circuit to build you one with all the trimmings for just under $3k. Try $70k for they very top factory teams with one caveat that half the stuff hanging off them is custom not available and therefore can't have a price put on it.

Secondly, the only reason that MTB's are so exy is because of economies of scale. Yamaha etc are all way way way bigger than SantaCruz Yetti etc, have manufacturing lines that cost big $$$ but save time and $$$ consequently and sell heaps more units that these MTB manufactures. You can't even compare. I would charge you $15k for me to build you a box trailer for your mx bike but if you bought a commercial one maybe you'd pay $7k. Mine will have better welds and be much nicer and customized to your every need but it won't be twice as good. Oh and just like I don't need RV2's race bike why do you need a bike same as the top MTB pros? If your like me that level of gear is wasted on even above average skills.
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  • + 1
 This is completly stupid. What the hell is up with those prices? Are you kidding me? Every brand rises it's prices every year. i've seen a lot of the working process on many parts for bikes, cars and even sportships and the whole process of constuction on a pc. Since the beginning of todays marketing, everything you bought was only worth half the price because the people need to make money. Now i see a bike "10 000 dollars" of price... The parts are never worth that much. All those "big names" with their "big prices"... I don't get it.
  • + 6
 why are they hailing the prices up??

because there are still people out there dumb enough to pay it thats why
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  • + 1
 Bronson for every budget from what I can see if you really are interested in one, otherwise go dig and do something constructive whinny bitches! SC looks good, well done covered all bases imo. I dont care about wheel sizes as long as a bike is well designed, video of Rat, Peaty, Ced, Gregg has me stoked to ride after breaking some ribs 5 weeks ago, keen to dig n ride again!
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  • + 1
 If you can get over having a bike that is already 3-4 years old, just think at what a sick ride you will have in 2017! and don't dispair about what is out there on the used market now either. trying to buy a few seconds with money? be my guest
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  • + 2
 I hope they come out with 28" wheels soon. It's all the advantages of the 650b but also some advantages of the 29". I'd pay 12K for a 28" bike. I hear they shave 3.1 seconds off every DH track, too.
  • + 1
 You really have a comprehension problem as to where wheel sizes come from, don't you?
  • + 2
 (that post was entirely sarcastic, just so you know)
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  • + 5
 Thanks for pointing out that article. Very, very insightful. It was clear Santa Cruz didn't necessarily see the benefits of the 650B over 26.
"this is arguably one of the first occasions when a manufacturer didn’t simply choose 650b wheels because they were new and therefore had to be rad – the Bronson’s wheel choice came from the demands of a consumer and not the whims of a product manager. Personally, I wish that so many people hadn’t taken time out of their day to call Santa Cruz and ask them to build a bike with a wheel size that I am willing to bet 90 percent of them had never even ridden.."
  • - 2
 Another low intelligence Knuckledragging Retrogrouch dismissing all of the things the designer said except one line from a full day conversation. Just because he agrees with you doesn't mean he is right Wink
  • + 4
 @ jon123rjk.

Maybe if SantaCruz stuck to their engineering guns seeing as there was no real performance advantage in 27.5 we'd have one of the best 26in enduro bikes ever made.
  • - 6
 Except there IS a real performance advantage... that's been known for decades. Its only close minded people who refuse to accept it.
  • + 6
 Don't confuse advantage with difference. Once you introduce full suspension to the wheel size debate, it becomes minor trade offs really. Rolls better vs weighs more vs turns wider versus less responsive...etc.
  • + 2
 Santa Cruz wouldn't create a bike that competes with Nomad. This bike is a great compliment to the Nomad and the TallBoy. I wouldn't buy it, but if I was looking for a 27.5 bike, it would be on my demo list for sure.
  • + 1
 Yeah this bike in a 26 would be nothing new. Whether there is a performance advantage will show up in the number of 650bs on podiums (the top races in the world are so close that a change as big as wheel size will make the difference) and big wheels are already making a good showing. It may be a small enough difference that it comes down to racer preference, or a big enough one that it depends on the run. Making some blanket statement at this point seems pretty silly. I know I look forward to trying out some 650b wheels.
  • + 1
 As I read it, the SC team spent all day explaining the benefits of the bike as a whole package. The author misunderstood this to mean the wheels rere irrelevant. I suspect the SC team got sick of the author's "yeah, but" responses to everything and used the last ditch: "we sell bikes and people are asking for it even if YOU don't agree." I would love to hear SC and the author's discussion today LOL!! I suspect he won't be getting any test mules to ride anymore.
  • + 2
 Yeah the guy for this article sounds like a douche. You can tell the SC guys are annoyed with him.

I think what the engineers are getting at here is that you and me won't really notice a difference in 650b vs 26. I think what the author didn't ask or SC didn't tell him is which size is faster. I am willing to bet that SC had these guys on the 26 proto, 650b proto, and tallboy LT and were doing timed runs on enduro race type trails and 650b is the fastest. Is it the most fun bike SC makes? Maybe not, but for enduro racing I am willing to bet this the fastest bike they make. SC pays Greg, Ratboy, and Peaty a lot of money and if they are racing enduro SC wants them on the fastest enduro bike they make to give these guys the best chance at the podium.
  • - 1
 Same way a lot of us are annoyed with all the 650B haters on sites like pinkbike... you guys wanna lose races and be at the back of group rides... fine with me.
  • + 3
 If the average rider can't tell the difference i bet he still is a touch faster and can ride longer. If that is the case, perfect. No difference except fun for longer.
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  • + 5
 $10,500...FOR...A...BIKE

although nice ride
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  • + 1
 1 more 650b to try before I wipe them off my list of potential buys. I already have a long travel 26r and have been in the market for a more forgiving bike for the long hauls, 25+ mi. I have tried the intense, the Rocky Mountain, the turner and the ventana. None of which offer enough improvement in climbing to justify the sacrifice made on one of these bikes on the descent. I have almost come to the conclusion what I really want is a 29r to accompany my 26r. But in my head I really want this dream of "the best of both worlds" to be true. The Santa Cruz demo for my area is in a month, so at least I will know soon, can a bike company really produce the correct geometry and suspension to make a best of both worlds bike.
  • + 2
 The Norco has good descending cred, but apparently doesn't pedal as well as you might like. Try it out and post up a review. I'd read it.
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  • + 2
 Just buy what u can afford. I think that $100,000 on a Porsche is way to expensive so I drive a dodge for $25,000
Same thing with bikes I can't afford $10,000 but $5000 was good for me
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  • + 1
 I can certainly guarantee you that if SC market is about the size of Giant and Specialized then they are for sure will have more buying leverage over suppliers, but they can still prize their products based on where they see it fits and what summary of conclusion comes out in regards to sales, profitability, future plans and management revenue target. A lot of things comes into play and it's as good as saying a liter of oil is only priced based on anyone assumptions and not the actual demands.
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  • + 2
 That spinning web page, now whenever I look anywhere stuff is spinning, I am looking at my keyboard and it is spinning. I am looking at my mouse, it is spinning, make it stop, make it stop!!!
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  • + 1
 The whole pricing value is completely irrelevant. Any of these companies can put a price range between models and none of them puts a gone on your head. If you wanna pay 10k then go for it, there's way too many options and you are free to decide where you opt to swipe your card at the end of day.

It's a plain simple economics and it applies to all things for trade and sale such as purse, shoes, cars etc etc.... So if you feel that price is too high then deal with it because you have no power over it but you can choose to look around elsewhere...

We have been given the liberty to choose where we throw our cash and who to do business with and that same rights apply to companies... Did you really think green product is green and it cost more?????

Whew! The beauty of capitalism ha!!
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  • + 1
 Don't buy it?

I've got a brand new 2012 carbon tallboy with all new xt components that I spent 3k on.. It weights about 25.5 lbs and it gets the job done.. You keeping wanting and they keep providing.. You all sound like crack heads bitching about the price of crack.. Leave the 10k bikes to the professionals and get a bike based on your skills... and comparing a dirt bike to a bicycle is the dumbest thing I've ever heard? You can't compare them!! And anyone that says I can buy a motorcycle for the price of your bike, just nod at the dip shit and buy the fat ass a burger. They have no clue... The enve/xtr builds are for douche bags and die hard racers.. If your not making a living off racing then don't be a douche bag.. Buy a reasonably priced bike that Santa Cruz does offer..
  • + 0
 ^ all of THIS
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  • + 3
 cool looking bike - to bad that the pricing is not related to 1st of april

10k for a bike - wtf?!?!?
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  • + 4
 I wants one!! Everything I'm lookin for in my next bike!! Stunning
  • + 14
 you'l want one even more after watching this vimeo.com/63027254
  • + 1
 thanks. the vid was awesome
  • + 1
 best. test group. ever. haha
  • + 1
 i dont understand why pb didnt post it in the article
  • + 1
 After watching that vid, I want (not that I didn't want one before, but I just realllly want one now). If I can suddenly come across $10G, then I will get one...
  • + 1
 POD material! SICK bikes and SICK vid!
[Reply]
  • + 0
 To all of you hating the price i have these three words: differentiate the market.

In many other industries, companies spend vast amounts of effort to align themselves with a particular section of the market. BMW do not make entry level cheap-as-chips cars for a first time buyer, neither do Merc or any of the names you associate with more expensive cars. Toyota do. Before you all scream they also make Lexus, that is the point: the market is different for Lexus and Toyota so that is the reason why they have two completely different companies. And we let them because we perceive the two to be vastly different. They are separating the two in the minds of us, the consumers. As a result, Lexus buyers do not complain about the price, they know they are buying something they believe to be better. Toyota buyers do not complain about the price of Lexae. Or is that Lexii, or Lexuses. We believe the two to be mutually exclusive, whether or not that be the case.

Now apply that to the world of MTB and you can see, or should be able to, a huge difference. There are industry standards and you can hang any number of different quality and spec parts on one frame, and across different companies' frames. that is pretty unique. you can't take a drivetrain from a Ferrari and put in in a Ford in your garage in an evening: but want to put XX1 or whatever else costs an arm and a leg on your 100$ frame and you can. And that leads us as consumers to believe all bikes are essentially the same. This makes it difficult to believe that price differentials are valid. Companies have a much more difficult time making us accept the same price differentials we are happy to accept in other industries.
  • + 1
 Continues...
Will we ever see a day when a bike company splits its product line like Toyota and Lexus? Maybe not, and i hope not, however please remember that price differentials exist and are justified mainly in the mind of the consumer. As many have said here, if you think it's too expensive don't buy it. I have chosen to build all my bikes from hubs up these days, believe I have got some great riding bikes for not crazy money and am glad that we can choose to hang whatever parts we like off our frames. I love the bike
  • + 1
 ...industry as it allows us to build up frames how we like. SC are suggesting builds, that's up to them. If you don't like their build because it's too expensive, well, sorry but that's life in all industries. I can't afford top if the range stuff, and don't think it will make me enjoy my riding any more than I do, so why not get into building up your own bikes with cheaper parts. Deore rules, just ask Ed at Dirt magazine.
  • + 1
 VW stopped exporting the phaeton to the US and canada as VW is considered the "poor man's german car." Meaning, 30-60k, rather than 70-120k. That is where audi comes in. If boutique brands were available at Wal Mart prices, the companies would be accused of selling out, just like the Cam Zink model reported a couple weeks back.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Margins are built in so that dealers can afford to stock 10 of these bikes, sell 7 and not lose money. You realize how expensive it is to carry 50 bikes in sizes and colors and builds so you can choose one?
[Reply]
  • + 3
 Great looking bike but I think I like it due it looking exactly like my Blur LTc, but with slightly larger wheels
[Reply]
  • + 2
 has to be the nicest looking bike in a DECADE. I am buying one and eating crow as I claim to be a 26 4 lifer.....now to find money.........
  • + 1
 Eye of the Beholder. I will take any Nicolai bike over it any time of the day and twice after breakfast.
[Reply]
  • + 3
 Nice looking bike,that I can see without the page spinning android phone :-)
  • + 4
 Until our programmer wakes up, right click on the page, 'inspect element,' 'body' on the bottom menu, then find 'animations' at the upper left corner and unclick the box there. RC
  • + 7
 When he does wake up, please give him a smack from me.
  • + 1
 just refresh a couple of times
[Reply]
  • + 0
 Don't buy it?

I've got a brand new 2012 carbon tallboy with all new xt components that I spent 3k on.. It weights about 25.5 lbs and it gets the job done.. You keeping wanting and they keep providing.. You all sound like crack heads complaining about the price of crack.. Leave the 10k bikes to the professionals and get a bike based on your skills... and comparing a dirt bike to a bicycle is the dumbest thing I've ever heard? You can't compare them!! And anyone that says I can buy a motorcycle for the price of your bike, just nod at the moron and and buy the fat chump a burger. They have no clue... The enve/xtr builds are for douche bags and die hard racers.. If your not making a living off racing then don't be a douche bag.. Buy a reasonably priced bike that Santa Cruz offers
[Reply]
  • + 2
 Good looking bike. Can't wait to read the reviews on this bike. It would be better if SCB have BLUR TR / TRC in 27.5/650b.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Old school43....couln't have said it better. We pay this much for mnt. "stuff" and bikes that's way they can KEEP selling it at these ridiculous prices !!!!!
[Reply]
  • + 0
 long chainstay, steep head angle, high bottom bracket

is the industry going back to hardcore xc geometry or something? does not sound fun at all. this coming from someone who has owned almost every SC bike ever made.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 That bike is purty lookin!!! Too bad i would have to sell everything i own to buy it Frown
[Reply]
  • + 1
 I've seen people convert the TRc to 650b, though I am not sure how its done. Also, people, If you don't know how to spell something, look it up. Jesus.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 up to 10k for a pushbike? hope this is a fecking april fools for a bit of carbon fibre and some metal
[Reply]
  • + 1
 wow! sc is joining the current above ground living world...bravo...or should i say bronson?!

price? sc has aLways been priced as hd (harley davidson)...dont complain now.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 I'm just going to buy a set of decent carbon 650b wheels and tires then put them on my 2011 Stumpy Carbon Pro FSR. No need for this high priced nonsense.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 BTW I'd love to see a Nomad that was the flagship enduro of SC with and 650 upgrade instead of this blur (trail bike) upgrade
  • + 1
 If you look at and compare the geo of this to the nomad it is almost the same bike. Just a 650B specific version.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Hate the comments on the price. Think you can do better and cheaper? Open a company and do it ! AHAHAHAH would like to see it ! Ordered 1 today
[Reply]
  • + 2
 Quite surprised only 2 posters have woken up knowing what day it is today...
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Long live On-One bikes.... they seem to be the only bike manufacturers selling great bikes for a reasonable price these days!
[Reply]
  • + 2
 10k+ lol! the world of mtb is becoming more and more the one of haves and have nots.
[Reply]
  • + 3
 Looks like a nickel, heckler, tall boy, Bullitt, and any other SC around.
  • + 7
 That's true, it does. But I guess when you use the same suspension design on most of your bikes you'll have a similar looking bike every time. Most porsche cars look very similar.
  • + 2
 My thoughts exactly. Butcher meets Heckler via VPP linkage. If it rides as well as a Heckler does it would not be unwelcome here!
  • + 2
 Arg, and I just got my Nomad C. I just wish I had stealth routing for my post. I love SC!
  • + 4
 its a Santa Cruz
  • - 4
 its vpp so this is false.."Santa Cruz continues to lead each new era in mountain bike design"
  • + 2
 holy crap! That SC looks like an SC! Duh
  • + 0
 Richie, if you have a dig about a guy has managed to retro fit a stealth. And it doesn't took like every other sc as the front of the rear shock is mounted in a completely different place to accommodate the American love of water bottle cages...
  • + 2
 What!?!? I don't get what you are trying to say. Could you please explain?
  • + 1
 If you have a look on the internet you will find it is possible to retro fit a stealth reverb to a nomad, 1 person has done it, even went to the trouble of having the frame x ray'd so he could route the cable round the bb. His method does void the warranty though
[Reply]
  • + 2
 looks good but i think it will b smart to wait one more year before we get the 650b bike
[Reply]
  • + 2
 I'm just waiting for Canyon Strive 650b with the same specs at the half of Bronson's price...
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Is the Bike an April Fool's joke? is Santa Cruz joking about the Bronson? Will Charles Bronson turn in his grave for such an act? only tomorrow will tell.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 nice bike though, although looks very similar to my nukeproof mega, and at 638 quid frame only, i would say mine is WAAAAY cheaper, and probably as good! i LOVE my bike!!
  • + 1
 you got your mega in a sale then, nowhere is selling megas for £638 RRP, nowhere even has them anywhere near that cheap on sale any more either.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Just called 3 different SC dealers to make sure this is legit and not some april 1 faux. And the word is... the Bronson lives.
[Reply]
  • + 3
 Before you dream of the bike watch the price
  • + 2
 3-8 grand for the alum depending on the build
  • + 2
 thats in 'a nice second hand BMW' territory
  • + 2
 I'd rather have the santa cruz on the back of my grocery getter than have a Beemer.
  • + 1
 Is there such a thing as a nice BMW?
[Reply]
  • + 1
 They run 4-10 grand on the website. And that is fully spec'd either way. Good luck finding anything with a top of the line spec in carbon for any less than 9 g's.
  • + 2
 the sad truth Frown
  • + 1
 It won't always be. It'll get cheaper to make and new mixes will come out that trade a little weight for even better strength (like titanium weave and stuff) making old carbon look like last week's trend. Then it will be $400 more than alu and it will stay there. Question is, when will the component price come down?
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Oh my! Whaat a thing of beauty! I WANT ONE, MUST HAVE ONE! Be good when fox puts out a 36 for the 650 wheel...
[Reply]
  • + 2
 too expensive. MTB is getting too expensive
[Reply]
  • + 1
 No word on travel in the entire article and on their site?
Someone enlighten me please.
  • - 1
 5". It's. right there.....
  • + 2
 6 inches in the rear!
[Reply]
  • + 2
 Sooo much want! They're actually stunning
[Reply]
  • + 2
 soooooooooooo cooooooooooooooooool~~~~~~~~~~~!!!! ^^
[Reply]
  • + 1
 very good april fools there pinkbike with page fallin all over the place, pissed my sides....nice one!
[Reply]
  • + 1
 i totally agree 10k for a bike is silly money and unjustifiable for anyone other than a team rider.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 Has anyone on here done a 650b conversion on their 26" bike?
[Reply]
  • + 2
 looks soo nice! could be a future bike option
[Reply]
  • + 1
 In the video, they should have had someone on a 29er, perhaps the new Spesh, follow them around those switchbacks...
[Reply]
  • + 2
 oh no my room is spinning :-/ why why Pinkbike???
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Long chainstays, high BB, short top tube... better just squeeze 27,5 wheels to your current Santa Cruz.
  • + 5
 Where do you get that? It's not long for 650s and shorter than a lot of 26" bikes. In fact I think it is the shorter than the Nomad 26, and with a lower BB height.
  • + 2
 I disagree with the high bb and short tt comments, but the chainstays are too long! Rocky Mountain Altitudes with 650b are about half an inch shorter
  • + 1
 Dude, 440mm chain stays isn't long? My 29er is shorter.
Look at Norco, Rocky Mountain or every other 650b models.
Spec Enduro, Enduro 29er, SJ FSR, Lapierre Spicy, Norcos, Turners, Scott.... everyone has lower BB.
  • + 1
 Stays on my mission are 440. A tad long, but still shorter than the nomad. Longer than the enduro sure, but I think you don't have an option on the linkage design.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 I ordered the carbon frame set in yellow today...can't wait.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Now WTB just has to release a 650B sized version of their existing Bronson tire model...
[Reply]
  • + 3
 spinnnning o.O
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Looks sweet but the price is a little out of hand when I just got a trance. Advanced carbon 5wo years old. Full xtr for 2800
[Reply]
  • + 1
 So they stole the Bronson name from WTB and didn't have the decency to spec Bronson tires? Nice bikes by the way...
  • + 4
 Er no. Its named after the street of their old headquarters, which they have just moved from.
  • + 1
 Oh, I hoped they referred to Charles Bronson...
[Reply]
  • + 1
 so a simpler swingarm and two, yes two, bottle cage mounts...i wouldnt pay anything less than 10k.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 Nice ride! To much $
[Reply]
  • + 0
 That looks like a super sick rig! I am glad to see Santa Cruz making a 650b bike!
[Reply]
  • + 0
 Just had news we will be getting these in very soon. Guaranteed best price and international delivery.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 That looks like a "left nut" bike.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Looks awesome, but my $1700 2006 Giant Trance 3 rides just fine.
[Reply]
  • - 1
 If you want to bitch about too expensive bikes, you should go to roadies forums. $10K is quite common, and the product is even simpler.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Needs WTB Bronson or Vigilante tires.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 I see a slightly tweaked Intense Carbine 275...
[Reply]
  • + 1
 It's pinkbikes April fool,when the site is spinning around
[Reply]
  • + 1
 looks good, but who the hell decided on the name 'bronson'?!
[Reply]
  • + 1
 it was spinning for me in safari aswell xD
[Reply]
  • + 1
 No issue with Mozilla Firefox, here a bonus : vimeo.com/63027254
[Reply]
  • + 1
 I think the other news it that they will have a finance department
[Reply]
  • + 2
 Jizzed in my pants.
  • + 4
 no you cant say jizz, i got neg propped into this week last week for it.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 I wanna ride a Charles Bronson!
  • + 4
 You must have a "death wish 1, 2, 3,....."
[Reply]
  • + 0
 10K is a lot? Try getting into top of the line road, trial & TT bikes lol
[Reply]
  • + 2
 So on my wishlist!
[Reply]
  • + 0
 So this completely new bike is a intense carbine 275 rip off with longer chain says and wheel base...
[Reply]
  • + 1
 MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • + 4
 Yes son, you called?
[Reply]
  • + 1
 why is it a 650 if that's only 25.59 inches? 700 is 27.55
  • + 1
 650 is a holdover number from decades ago when the standards were first created. The letter referred to a width, the number was the nominal diameter (in mm). A 650A, 650B and 650C were all basically the same diameter, but the widths were different (A narrow, C wide). Same went with 700A thru C. Now the old terms are used to refer to the rim size (and the tire bead seat diameter that mounts to them) not the actual inflated diameter of the tires anymore.
  • + 1
 Oh got it, thanks
[Reply]
  • + 1
 I'm throwing money at my ipad screen but nothing is happening!
[Reply]
  • + 0
 Not sure if April fools or real thing
  • + 2
 you fool...hahaa
  • + 1
 going for some sarcasm here..
[Reply]
  • + 0
 Too much travel for this old fella...still have a boner though...
[Reply]
  • + 0
 April Fool's strikes again!
[Reply]
  • + 1
 april 1st sucks ass
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Ordered mine today.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 awsome! what a machine!
[Reply]
  • + 1
 It's April 1st...
  • + 1
 I know is this web site going weird for any one else
  • + 2
 Cause its getting on my fu@king nerves
  • + 2
 refresh 3 times.
[Reply]
  • + 0
 can't afford it? don't buy it. simple.
[Reply]
  • - 1
 Santa Cruz Back in the (enduro) game !
  • + 3
 Yeah the nomad c never did make it in the enduro scene did it?
  • + 0
 From a marketing point of view, the Nomad is not really competitive for years...
  • + 2
 What does that mean: competitive "from a marketing point of view"? What about the competivity from a competitive perspective? Is it not still viable as a contender? Just interested Wink
  • + 0
 Who have seen a Nomad in good position in a racing vid' since 5 years ? Here we have a full carbon bike, 27,5" wheels, 150mm of travel, 142 rear axle, routing for ReverbThis, 67° head angle,...

Take a Blur TRC, ad big wheels, more travel, more angle, and you have a fresh "new Bronson" ! I'm not saying this gonna be a bad bike, this one look stunning ! The Nomad is still a good bike in my opinion, but the Bronson is just answering all the codes of the current market... Enduro season is just starting, make the link and you have the new marketing weapon of Santa Cruz Smile
  • + 2
 april 2013 davide sottocornola super enduro pro sestri levante 2nd place
  • + 1
 april 2013 gravity enduro interleithan scotland mark scott 1st place .both him and fella above nomad riders.also what about mark weir before he transfered to canondale
[Reply]
  • - 2
 Lame, buy a blur tr
[Reply]
  • - 3
 If they put the name Specialized, or Santa Cruz on a pile of poop, most people on this web site would want to buy....
  • + 23
 Don't knock my Specialized-branded pile of poop.
  • + 1
 Alright, hipster just you simmer down. There's a reason they sell so many bikes. What a pretentious comment.
  • + 3
 I'd have to agree with cbenderusa007 . There's a lot of hype around riders and whatnot who bike for these companies. Look at the demo, sure, you'd see a fair bit of them at the bike parks, but then they sign Sam Hill and BOOM, the bikes are everywhere. Too many people are brand obsessed, and will buy them even if they're not what they need/looking for.
  • + 2
 "All the popular kids have 'em"
  • + 6
 I just don't get where these guys determine pricing..... the all -carbon V10 frame is $500 less than the carbon demo frame.....????
$2750 for the aluminum demo? Nearly $1000 less than that for the operator frame? Not hating on specialized (I'd love one of the recently discontinued 4" SX's), but with their volume i'm thinking they must offer a hell of a retirement package for the employees!!!
  • + 1
 They set prices based on what customers paid the year before... if you want prices to drop, you need to get people to stop buying things at those high prices. They offer an eleven thousand dollar mountain bike BECAUSE enough people bought them last year for 10.5k that they know they can get a few hundred more this year. I watched an auction on ebay last week for FIFTY stickers which closed for $32US which is ridiculous since you get the most of the same stickers for free cut every few months with Mountain Biking UK magazine issues.

Idiots will pay whatever someone is asking for something, if they feel its worth it to them.
  • + 3
 Then why are Canyon and YT able to sell bikes of the same quality for less than half the price? Seriously, $10000 is just ridiculous for any mountainbike, no matter which way you look at it.
[Reply]
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