2012 Devinci bikes using Dave Weagle Split Pivot suspension design With insight and inspiration from World Cup dominator Steve Smith and the Devinci Global Racing (DGR) team, our full suspension lineup is constantly evolving, exchanging fat for prime cuts on the design chopping block. Last year, we teamed up with Dave Weagle - one of the top engineers in the mountain biking game - fully revamping our Wilson, Dixon, and Dexter bikes. And for 2012, we’ve added the industry's shortest 428mm chainstay Atlas 29er to the Split Pivot mix for all you big-wheel lovers. Weagle’s patented Split Pivot design is the central nervous system of this full suspension lineup. Split Pivot engineering equates to a transparent feel where suspension, braking, and acceleration work in harmony for more efficiency, more traction, and a faster ride. Our full suspension bikes combine a buttery smooth feel with enough explosive pedal power to conquer podiums across the globe.
| Devinci has always been a technology driven company. Their in-house testing and documentation is at a level you would expect in government R&D, not bikes. - Dave Weagle, Split Pivot designer |
The newest version of the Wilson SL with a carbon fiber seat stayThe 2012 Dixon SL now with an ISCG mountThe all new Atlas RC. Our Split Pivot 29er with a chainstay length of 428 mm.Our impressive short travel bike: the Dexter SLFor more information please visit our website at
www.devinci.com.
SPLIT PIVOT - (US PATENT 7,717,212, WORLDWIDE PENDING)
For what it's worth, I like what Devinci are about, but I breifly rode a Dixon yesterday (it was set up really badly), and I though it felt remarkably like a normal single pivot. Maybe more time on the design would allow it's benefits to show more?
The Full Floater part of Trek's system isn't covered by the same patent, as that refers only to the rear-most pivot. But you're right, that is a difference between Trek and Devinci's designs.
TREK
Bicycle rear wheel suspension system
Abstract
A bicycle frame assembly having a number of rotatable members configured to absorb shocks and impacts associated with operation of the bicycle. The assembly includes a frame constructed to support a rider and a chain stay having a rearward end that extends toward a wheel hub and a forward end that is pivotably connected to the frame. An absorber is pivotably connected to the forward end of the chain stay and extends to a rocker arm that is pivotably connected to the frame. A seat stay is pivotably connected to a rearward end of the rocker arm and extends to the rearward end of the chain stay. The rearward ends of the seat stay and the chain stay are pivotably connected to rotate about a common axis.
Inventors: Colegrove; James (Lake Mills, WI), Howes; Dylan (Monona, WI), Gonzalez; Jose (Santa Clarita, CA)
Assignee: Trek Bicycle Corporation (Waterloo, WI)
Appl. No.: 11/735,816
Filed: April 16, 2007
Split Pivot
Vehicle suspension systems for seperated acceleration responses
Abstract
The invention relates to suspension systems comprising, in certain embodiments, a pivoting means concentric to a wheel rotation axis so that braking forces can be controlled by placement of an instant force center, and so that acceleration forces can be controlled by a swinging wheel link.
Inventors: Weagle; David (Edgartown, MA)
Assignee: Split Pivot, Inc. (Edgartown, MA)
Appl. No.: 11/510,522
Filed: August 25, 2006
don't know what the hell had gone wrong with your demo Dixon SP on your test ride??
I have owned a Dixon SP since February this year, and have abused the hell out of it, including serious DH runs on uplift accessed tracks, no issues with braking (especially compared to single-pivots and rocker-activated single pivots i.e. Banshee Wildcard, I have owned which exhibited noticeable brake squatting)
I also personally sold dozens of Dixon SP to customer, and all raved about the Split-Pivot suspension, not one customer mentioned any braking squatting or brake jacking (two very different traits)
its a fantastic suspension design, with fully active braking and great pedalling performance, but also great control at different speeds and bump sizes
BTW, Split-Pivot and Trek's ABP only share the concentric dropout pivot in terms of design, their bikes ride completely differently as the systems are very tuneable in terms of geometry, chainstay length, leverage ratios, brake sensitivity and physical packaging
Weagle spent a huge amount of time working with Devinci and Fox on getting the Dixon, Dexter and Wilson 100% bang-on, especially the shock tune where Devinci have the lowest LSC circuit of any RP23 or DHX5 shock on the market
the frame axle hardware is very dialled, huge bearings on each pivot (same size on each pivot for Dixon and Dexter) and simple hardware with steel bolts to reduce wear issues
Smell that guys?
That's the smell of delicious marketing!
Don't indulge too much, or you might end up like hampsteadbandit!
Who gives a f*ck about 'marketing' when you are riding a trail...this is not the X-factor or you-tube. Does the Dixon sp bike work? Yes; damn well! That is all I could give a sh*t about... I paid for my Dixon from my own hard earned money, not because someone paid me to talk about it. I started riding in 1981, I know what makes a great bike...
Wow so 70% is based on looks, rather than how it rides. I bet you wear chick pants, flip your hair constantly to one side, paint your nails, and have a murse. Your comment has to be just about the gayest femwad comment I have EVER seen on pinkbike... bar none. (now if you reply... or others reply with flamer type femwad comments, you just prove my point). There is no defending yourself against my comment what so ever. Plain as day.
Btw, if how the bike rides means nothing, then why don't you just own a walmart bike, throw some streamers, a basket on the front and back for the murse, tampons, and other feminine products and call it a day, while at the same time saving you money? O, parts specs... throw some Atlas color matched cranks, some totems, maybe a matched stem, and some matched titanium spokes and alloy nipples on and it will be good to go. So now instead of say 6k$ your at about a grand, and also have a place to put the tampons and murse while your riding? Sound good? Don't forget the place to put the number for the wambulance in the back, and also holding the concert tickets to whatver hipster or emo band is currently popular. That way, you can just impress your friends about being "real". =]
LOL. I'm just f*cking with you so don't get bent. All in good fun and for the lulz.
And el-oh-el @ cooter
It's by making small changes that you end up with something great: Porsche have been building the same type of cars since the 60's, they kept their concept (rear engined cars vs mid engine) and made it better over the years. Have you seen any changes in moto-x suspension design in the last 10-15 years?
I personnaly own a Wilson. it's simple, and it works. Why bother building something radically new every year then start over the year after? Dave Weagle started off with a simple, proven concept and tweaked it to make it work better. If it wern't good, people wouldn't build bikes around the concept.
How many 2stage bikes have you seen in the trails? Mabye companies don't like the idea of two shocks, mabye the idea is just plain stupid or mabye people are just sceptical. All i'm saying is that if something was so revolutionary and so good, companies would build it. So far, Split pivot / ABP (cocentric axle pivot) has been proven effective.
Yes, 4 bar linkages permeate our existence. They are everywhere. How many people reading this realized that when you analyze how a bicycle (or motorcycle) accelerates, you actually need to analyze a 6-bar system?
You can bolt a wheel and chain onto all kinds of common 4-bars, making it the needed 6-bar, but will they make an effective suspension design? If you bolt a wheel onto a pair of vise-grips, will that be the best thing ever? How about the hinge that operates the lifting motion on the hood of your car? How about the 4-bar linkage on the shroud of a common chop saw? Are these the new revolutions? Really, it's the wrong way to look at it in my opinion.
If you read any suspension patents, you will very quickly realize that the method that I used to develop dw-link was completely different and novel compared to anything in the past 120 years. It is what it is, and I don't want that to come off as anything other than a fact. dw-link was devised to hit a specific range of performance that was not being met by other designs. I understood the physics problem first, then designed a solution, then synthesized linkages to meet that solution. Notice that the linkage design part came last, not first.
(continued below)
The suggestion that "the dw link is extremely similar to many other patents that have existed far before, just with minor alterations in order for him to gain the rights" is comical. Using your expert advise, why don't you give me just one or two patent numbers or older designs and tell me how the design is so similar. How is the anti-squat profile similar? How is the braking squat profile similar? How does the design translate into building widely varying leverage ratio curves useful for driving spring-damper units at varying velocities that are suited for bicycle suspension use? What about manufacturing related requirements? I think that once you really delve into the problem, your perspective just might change.
There are plenty of great bikes out there. I am really happy to be a part of some of them. I am even more happy when I get to ride them. That's what it's all about. Riding and having fun. All of the rest is just noise.
Have a great weekend guys and girls!
Dave
DW link made a hit cause its cheap and does a decent job. but is it better then VPP? who knows they just obtained other data and solved such problems creating their own link....
I ask you simply why is your product so innovative? cause in my mind the only thing that's innovative is the data that was collected to create such a solution... its like a textbook problem... its just math...
Make Bikes more affordable! more bikers = more money, consider it ;-)
How to properly use an apostrophe.
With DW-link, Dave started with a RESULT he wanted, and worked backwards from that desired result (which is in fact a number of characteristic curves, which you may or may not understand) until he got the LINKAGE that generated it. The linkage layout in terms of pivot position isn't actually patented, but the ways it generates its output curves are. Yeah the pivots are in VAGUELY similar locations to every other bike out there, but small changes make big differences. Putting in a rail or some novel linkage layout or whatever doesn't necessarily make something perform better!
Pretty well every other system out there prior to his work was doing more or less the opposite - designing a linkage that happened to demonstrate a certain characteristic. What nobody else was doing before DW came along, was accurately considering ALL the acceleration-related forces acting on the suspension (ie the system inputs) and tuning a "simple" linkage to give exactly the responses he wanted (ie the system outputs).
Remember this, because as an engineer it's something you'll need to know: Novelty offers no benefit over accurate tuning.
In my field, I felt pretty clever seeing a link between a certain depression profile that didn't respond well to medications or therapy, and high co morbidity with ADHD. I thought I was on to something new, but over the past 6 months, I have seen numerous studies published highlighting this link. The shift 4 or 5 years ago to look at disorders based on brain chemistry rather than symptoms shifted a lot of people's thinking, and many other, more clever, more resourced people have published their work before me.
What the eff do you think drives business? THIS. Having a GOOD working DESIGN made with LOW COST.
What do you think Lawwill did. I guarantee 90% of designs patented today (currently used) wouldn't be here without lawwill. Or FSR. OR any of the others. People said the same thing when FSR came out. When Lawwill came out. Each progresses ideas. Each progresses technology. While I ride a linkage driven single pivot on one bike, and a single ultra high rearward travel bike on the other bike, I still understand what new tech does. Sure it doesn't replace older tech, but, like canfield did with the Lahar, they improved and made it a multi-pivot rearward travel bike. Tech is good, and in the case of Canfield improving upon Lahar's ideas suspension wise it was night and day in feeling.
People are brain dead with all this gimmick crap. I think shit is gimmicky more than many others, BUT, technology is NOT. I just think fanboys who go to a suspension because a pro rides it, rather than how it actually rides is lame. After all, how many posery lamers did you see with Iron Horses when Sam Hill was winning? How many people did you see riding V10's suddenly when Pete changed from Orange to SC, how many more people did you see riding demos when Hill went to SP? That shit makes me sick.
IMO, a perfect design is one where you can't take anything away from it, yet it does everything you want it to. Simplicity... I seem to return to my more shock dependent, more pedal neutral, single pivot FS bike, just because it jets and I really value that feel in a bike. I am still working on clearing a number of technical climbs and I don't plow through chunky rock gardens on it, but I love it nonetheless. I guess the SoCal terrain I ride is just too smooth for DW Link to show much of its good side--a Mojo SL felt like a pig and a Flux felt a bit like a land shark and bottomed out too easily (my main ride was a Ti 29er HT at the time; now a Superfly 100 and AS-R7).
One more thing, don't call the ProPedal lever adjustment low speed compression.
This means that if your pedalling forces aren't trying to make the suspension compress or extend, you don't have to compromise any aspect of your damper setup to try to reduce bobbing (though you obviously still have to make other compromises, like using LSC to adjust stability vs harshness - another discussion altogether). It just removes one more variable from what your suspension setup needs to cope with.
There are a couple of REALLY detailed discussions of anti-squat on Ridemonkey, see www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?244131-Pedal-Feedback&highlight=anti+squat and www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?244241-Anti-bob-chainrings&highlight=anti+squat if you're interested.
Also, the Propedal adjustment does in fact adjust low speed compression, but it does also generate force at zero speed.
DW Link has over 100% anti-squat in the first half of its stroke (120-140%, if I recall correctly). Check the anti-squat curves on some of his AM bikes. This is somewhat balanced by running a lower pressure in your shock, in order to minimize bob. Tuning sag is critical on a DW Link, as it is very position sensitive. DW designs his bikes to not be shock dependant, not requiring ProPedal (or Boost Valve). I'm not a believer in that, but I won't argue that his designs strike a good balance in what riders want in a bike, with a bob-free ride with excellent traction and rear end stiffness for good wheel tracking. I just weigh one of the downsides to the DW Link quite heavily.
I care about pedaling efficiency. Many don't, caring more about the adrenaline rush on the downs. This Split Pivot design sort of is skewed for that, from what I can tell without riding one. I kind of want to see the Zerode with a similar concentric pivot and isolated brake design.
Anyways, this is all abstract generalized nerd talk. Feel free to try and counter my points when you manage to compare DW designed bikes to other bikes of similar design intent and go climb them uphill, which I consider the true test of efficiency. The truth is in the ride.
ProPedal sounds like what LSC damping can do, but they're different. Darren of PUSH explains: forums.mtbr.com/2927421-post31.html
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2KRlsBwa9Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=70s
A DH bike with its rear brake mounted on its main pivot arm. Look at that thing move. Now imagine it if the brake were mounted on the "chainstay". Not perfectly isolated, but compared it's original design... that should do a great difference relieving the brake jack (or brake squat... looks like it stiffens up to me under braking). If the pivot was at the axle, the "chainstay" would be even more neutral.
This DH bike has neutral pedaling, does away with derailleurs, and centralizes all its weight, leaving less weight unsprung. I wonder if this could be the future if they meet up with DW. They also have a carbon XC version too.
(cont'd below)
ProPedal is LSC that can generate a non-zero force at zero speed, unlike constant bleed LSC circuits that you usually find in DH shocks. To quote from your link "Is Propedal compression damping? Yes. Propedal is part of a complete compression circuit.".
BTW - I wrote my thesis on MTB suspension, I work with a suspension tuner here in Australia, and I own a shock dyno. I do have some idea what I'm on about
Observing the suspension profile in Linkage (www.bikechecker.com), the Wilson seems to have an anti-squat curve that starts at 130.9% and steadily drops to 98.2% anti-squat at full travel (not sure what gearing is used in the sim), with a total chain growth of 42.3mm, producing 22.86 degrees of pedal kickback. The brake forces start out at 96.9% anti-squat, very close to neutral (100%; over 100% is brake jack and under 100% is brake squat), but ends up at 15.4% anti-squat (heavy squat).
It's arguing semantics now, more or less. ProPedal does attempt to damp out low speed compressions, but does so in a way different from normal LSC found on Fox forks and the RC4, as you say. What you describe is what many call platform.
Have a copy of your thesis online? Read one that praised Giant's Maestro (Glory) and I'm curious how yours reads.
And actually, yes I can tell anybody that a FS bike with no bobbing is no less efficient (save for perhaps slightly more flex and almost certainly more weight) to pedal than a hardtail. I don't know how you're coming up with this stuff but it's not based on any physics! You can generate whatever force you want in as many places as you want (theoretically up to infinity but in reality stuff breaks instead) by increasing the leverage on whatever, but if those forces are opposed in such a manner that there is no displacement, NO ENERGY IS CONSUMED. If you want to disagree with this, there's a guy by the name of Newton whose theories you want to publicly dispute. It's really not up for debate in the slightest - please read a statics & dynamics textbook.
1. Most of the files input in its existing library are inaccurate to some degree. With some bikes/designs this matters quite a bit, with others not so much. The current generation of DW-link bikes have links that are much too short to be accurately modeled by clicking on photos, and so chances are the data you're looking at is substantially inaccurate. As a general rule, the longer the links, the less inaccurate Linkage is. The acceleration profile for the Wilson would probably be reasonably representative, but the braking characteristics are reliant on a very short link with a lot of rotation, and small errors in the coordinates of those points will give large errors in braking profiles.
2. Anti-squat percentages under acceleration are heavily dependent on gearing choice. The percentage anti-squat varies according to what gear you're in, what point in the travel you are at and the gradient of the ground you're on. Looking at numbers like that without even checking what the gearing is, is more than likely going to give you entirely useless numbers.
3. The braking force percentages you're reading are actually anti-RISE not anti-squat. 100% anti-rise is not considered "neutral" braking, in fact it is a reasonably high level of pro-squat. Again, please read up on this.
We may be arguing semantics, but that was exactly the point of the debate you brought up regarding whether Propedal was LSC. It is a compression adjuster that affects motion of the damper at low speed, therefore it is a form of low speed compression adjuster. Yes it also has a platform effect, doesn't mean it doesn't affect low speed compression.
Jump on RM and search "thesis" in the DH forum and my thesis will pop up. The topic was the interaction of the rider with the suspension, not an analysis of linkages however.
by the way, most bike engineers don't like dave, its because they're nobody's for constantly inventing run of the mill shit.
check out norco's "revolutionary" art suspension. or better yet knolly's way around the no longer needed full length seat tube. yeah. revolutionary. what about mongoose? you like them? morewoods? pretty sure delfs and rennie were breaking those weekly
you want to call lapierre revolutionary? they have four extra pivots that might as well not even be there!
give your head a shake
and give the man the respect he deserves
he is the man driving the industry forward
He also knows as much as a 5 year old which was born from a crackhead, and kicked in the face, beat with a rake, and thrown in the dumbster. (no not dumpster, this is more derogotory. Only trolls deserve these descriptions.).
Glad to see you back trolling again tardo. Did you ban expire finally??? .... Loser.
Btw, bigtard, I just put some more dogfood in your families dish. Enjoy much? Wait, it wasn't troll food... o well, trolls eat dog food as well.
And you were never banned, but, "well maybe for a few days". Hmm, seems a bit contradicting doesn't it? You got banned and you will be banned again. You are one of the most infamous trolls on pb, and, by your words not mine, an open queer who likes "f*cking with other guys".
Have fun with that one buddy. Glad you got a laugh out of my comment. But no, I don't swing your way, so that laugh only goes so far.
Btw, you mention having a life, but yet, you have more hours racked up trolling on PB than any actual moderator on here has. Hmmm. Considering I spend about 1-3 min every few days on pinkbike, you must have much less life than me in order to spam and troll worthless comments on almost each and every post on pb. Like said, It's not just me who knows you. We all think of you as the "PB TROLL". And not in a good way. Your trolling is more on a stalkative disturbing manner than anything. A+ stalkers. Wonder if you are on the S/P listings online?
It was literally the best DH bike Ive rode yet, everything about it was DIALED !.... (and I'm a very picky SOB that only complains about everything...I also did one run from the top on the new Trek, what a terd, sorry Trek fans, just my opinion, yes I know Gwin can go VERY fast on one, good for him :-)
I'm still on a high from riding that bike and it was a few weeks ago!!
i appreciate dave's enrgy and research. i don't agree with the assertions that there is anything new under the sun, only application, so he gets props from me for application and careful use of existing ideas and right thinking in terms of research. In any case I still ride the Sunday even though it has pedal kick back and grinds those pedals if I don't get them up on rocks and corners. It still makes me smile even if the carbon FSR is getting all the love on trail rides right now. I am reminded of the line from Tombstone "It's true, you are a good woman. Then again, you may be the antichrist."
Story minus random BS and product talk: "Split pivot works"
My take: Another advertisement pretending to be a story. Don't get me wrong, I love product reviews, I like seeing new product, I like tech talk, I even like Devinci. But this was hardly even a glorified advertisement, it seemed like some article I should read on the Devinci website. Kinda bummed after reading the title!
Secondly I feel the need to apologize for my first comment. Somehow when I reviewed this short article I missed the video, whether it was not presented on my screen, or I just missed it, I don't know. So now that I have seen the video, I actually thought it was very informative.
As an engineering student myself, I would be interested in more detail about how a bike with a single pivot wheel path is able to pedal so well on multiple chain rings (1:10 in the video). To my knowledge it is largely up to the loaded chain path in relation to the main pivot.
Another question I've had is at 4:55 in the video. Many different designs claim to separate braking forces by floating the brake. I would like to know how exactly it separates them without a "brake therapy" styled link rather than just continue to take it for granted. It seems to me like much of the braking force would still be transmitted to the shock.
Thanks for reading my little book.
DW/Devinci.....you made a superb design for the riding that I do here in northern Scotland, I couldn't care less about patents and science, it just works, well done!
www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?35572-quot-Brake-jack-quot-an-explanation./page8
"Ff the seatstay link was concentric to the axle (ie the pivot was at the axle) then you could run the brake caliper on that and it'd be like one big floating brake... "
"....I've also been wondering if it was possible to design a rear chainstay/seatstay pivot that centred around the axle.Now that you've explained that it would effectively be a floating brake, I'm interested to try it (not that I have the engineering talents or resources)..."
"Basically if you did that, it would be like using a singlepivot + floating brake (since one of their pivots is always axle-centric too), with the floating brake also used to drive the shock in some way. Draw from that what you will."
One of the biggest problems now facing the bike industry is the glut of questionable patents like Split Pivot...How many designers and / or companies have ideas that they cannot pursue for fear of being hit with a patent infringement suit? How much extra are consumers paying for their bikes because of all of these patents???
It appears Orbea has had some of the same thoughts, as their new Occam utilizes a concentric dropout pivot. Their product engineer Xabier Narbaiza was recently quoted on bikeradar.com as saying, “the general patent for DW and Trek have been around since 1890, and should be available to consumers without any royalty fees tacked on.”
www.bikeradar.com/news/article/orbea-overhauls-occam-for-2012-first-look-31783
It's risky business for any company making suggestions that suggest people or companies should not respect IP. I would not suggest that.
To answer your question directly, bike consumers pay about the 1/5 the cost of a low end rear shock, or less than the cost of a single butted aluminum top tube to use my designs. I personally believe strongly that the performance of the bike is improved significantly more by my suspension work than an fancy top tube. You may disagree, and that's OK.
Have a great weekend Bradflyn,
Dave
(scroll down the 4th picture, read the caption, and wonder aloud how these a*sholes are still in business; let alone how they graduated the 5th grade)
mbaction.com/Main/News/Mountain_Bike_Action_Report_Interbike_Day_3_4704.aspx
its the modern incarnaton of the original "mountain bike" - my first MTB in 1986 had cromoly steel frame and fork, Shimano drivetrain with thumbshifters and big balloon tires - I used that bike for everything!
today I went riding with my buddy Jesus John, he was riding a 2011 Specialized Enduro with the very capable FSR suspension
we rode for 5 hours flat out on steep fireroad climbs, steep woods decents, rolling singletracks, big tabletops, rough off-camber rooty trails and super fast downhills with big berms and braking bumps
he knows the trails, so I rode on his back wheel to get a sense of direction
I had no problems keeping up on my Dixon, and no issues of "brake squat / brake jack" as some have commented..
Weagle has done an awesome job on the Split-Pivot, and Devinci have done an awesome job on building the Dixon, no complaints from me!
1) Don't show it to ANYONE, don't talk about it, don't describe it, and certainly don't offer it for sale, license, or anything that could be constituted as such until you have an actual patent AWARDED.
2) Nobody is going to pay anything to any unknown person without patent protection, and at the same time, some success in the market to back it up. There are plenty of known people shopping designs around as it is. Personally I don't shop my work around ever.
3) Working in bikes can be very rewarding, but at times it can also be a thankless job. Many companies would rather steal your design straight up. I have learned the hard way. If you can't handle that kind of stress and not lose your mind, you may want to try a different career path.
4) If you don't have a patent, then anyone can use your design. If you have a patent, you need to have the $$ to protect it. A patent is not a right to build or sell your idea. It is a right to stop others from building or selling it. Read that twice and remember it.
My suggestion if is to start a bike company, apply for patents, and 3-5 years down the line when the patents award, build something with it using the experience gained over the years of building bikes and a brand to add to it's value. Suspension designs are a dime a dozen out there. Do a patent search and see what I mean.
It's a tough world out there but those with real heart, dedication, and above all the willingness to work tirelessly sometimes get a small piece. No guarantees though. Plenty of people have spent their whole life working their ass off with no reward. Never going to know unless you try.
Dave
I'm sure that's exactly what you expected chaz dog...
patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,837,213.PN.&OS=PN/7,837,213&RS=PN/7,837,213
yes, you're right it was filed a year ago, but took a patent the same year. Well, it means that Trek sucks, i don't care. Monopivot WTF!
Please give me a minute of your time to read my post and if you can, offer me help.
1) I am not an engineer. I had trouble at school with applied maths and still have nightmares about calculating how far out from the centre of an LP spinning round at 33rpm a coin will overcome the forces acting upon it and fly off. Four bar, er Split Pivot (I'm ignorant yet it looks like a four bar to this non-engineer), DW link, Single Pivot APP, VPP. Need I go on... Oh God, I need a sit down.
2) I live in Japan and trying to find demo days to go out and ride a variety of bikes is, well to keep it simple, hard. Yes, there are some, however not if you want to ride a wide variety before committing your yen.
This leaves me with an apparently insurmountable problem. I do not have the understanding of the engineering to be able to use adequately the information Dave has passed on in the video (Thanks for trying Dave, I am just a bit traumatised by curves). Neither do I have the chance to get on a bike I might want to buy and try it out.
So, with this in mind I have great difficulty in differentiating (oh no, another maths word!) the myriad of suspension and frame designs out there. No, let's be honest, I find it impossible.
And that is a problem because my first generation Blindside is on it's way out and will need replacing over the winter.
I genuinely seem to have very little option other than to appeal to someone, anyone, to take this idea I have and run with it (and hopefully make some money for yourself in the process).
Continues below.
You have one pre-order right here.
To get an idea of the kind of thing I am thinking of, watch any of Dave Garland's (Team Mechanic at CRC Nukeproof) "how to" videos; a great ability to explain to anyone, even someone like me, what is important when trying to maintain your bike. I need something like that about frame and suspension design or my head is going to explode.
Thanks for reading.
gd idea/design
Thread of the day
hahaha
So no you havent offended me dave, its more those who rave on sundays and anything with the magic dw, hating k9's, brooklyns and lawhill designs, whilst lacking even the most basic understanding of the bikes. So sorry if that came of as a personal thing, it isn't, Its more the image that everything you do is gods gift to the biking world almost to the extent of blanking all else. If anything congrats are in order for somehow establishing yourself so well in the industry so easily.
2.) I've known Dave personally for many years. Never once in the confines of our personally conversation has he EVER said anything to the fact that his designs are the be-all-end-all to mountain biking. God's gift? Maybe to women, but Dave's approach to science and suspension have proven themselves over and over again. Get on a DW link bike and pedal the sh!t out of it on a trail (non parking lot tests), there's a reason people love his designs....they perform how they're marketed.
3. Dave has worked his ASS off in this industry and continues to do so 7 days a week. Sh!t like "establishing yourself so well in the industry so easily" is the most asinine thing ive read. Making it in the cycling industry is far from easy, anyone in the industry will tell you that. In an industry so rampant with blatant ripofffs, I'm surprised Dave is still involved with cycling AT ALL, just goes to show how dedicated he is to this sport and his continued drive to improve on our 'toys' that we have the luxury of riding.
let's take a look and see what other engineers are on the forums directly interacting with their customers??
Let me get this straight...........so you're saying Dave has an ego because he:
Takes time out of his ridiculously busy schedule to join forum to give input on his work, chat with the people that actually buy bikes, gains feedback from direct users, still converses intelligently and maturely with people from all over the world even though they try and tear him down.
Sorry Dave...........Chaz has shown me the light. I can't be your friend anymore. You're such a huge jerk with the worst ego in the biz. Go back to waxing your Ferrari and eating Bald Eagle eggs.
I get it that a lot of people hear Dave's name and go weak at the knees and wanna buy into that design but there has to be some foundation for such a reputation.
It just sounds like you're butthurt because he's succeeding in an area of the industry which you aspire to be part of. Best of luck to you if you decide to follow it, and let's see if you can be as polite as Dave has been when internet heroes come on and slag off your designs and reputation. Assuming you get that far in the first place.
2000-2001: I embarked on one of the most ambitious data acquisition projects I've ever seen in cycling. This is actually how I met the guys from Devinci, when they started building the Evil Imperial frames that we debut in 2001 at Interbike. I don't flaunt this stuff around the internet, actually I try to never show it. Did you know that we built a prototype Sunday with integrated DAQ components? I still have it here. Did you know that I currently work for Cosworth as an advanced research tester? No, you didn't, I can promise that one.
I designed build and sold the first impact absorbing thermoplastic bashguard chainguide. We started a company called e.thirteen with the technology. Your bike uses that technology today, basically everyone's does. (didn't patent that BTW...)
I designed the first "freeride specific" dual ring specific chainguide. It was the first example of what is now ubiquitous, the stepped roller where the chain rides on the larger diameter in the granny and is held on the middle ring by the edge of that step. (no patents there either, FYI)
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2003-2007: The Iron Horse years. Where do you think 63-64 degree head tube angles and sub 14" BB heights came from on DH bikes? If I had a nickel for everyone who told me that it would never work I'd be a rich dude.
I'm not even going to get into what makes dw-link different than (insert XXXX design name here), but to suggest that its just some vanilla, rehashed college physics book is being pretty naive on your part. I got a good chuckle out of the "whilst basic understanding" part. Clearly.
Hey not all bikes can be everything to everybody. I know that, I think most riders do. You don't like the things I've worked on, that's cool, I'm not going to cry about it. I am going to keep putting in the 10 hour days, 6 days a week, just like I have for the last 12 years. I am still going to keep trying to build the best products that I can, and if they are any good, the they will stand on their own. I am still going to learn. Hopefully that work will translate into even better products that put more smiles on more rider's faces. Maybe even yours someday.
All the best of luck with your design,
Dave
in this day and age, almost no ideas are revolutionary and new.
and his ideas are held in such high esteem because theyre among the best out there. all of the bikes he's designed ride very well. why would you dispute that?
i rave about sundays, i've ridden almost every bike out there. faster than you ever will, faster than most people ever will.
and the sunday rules. nobody who's owned one would ever say different. sure they weren't perfect, but they were better than anything else out there at the time. and the failures were all manufacturing related. same as the evil. and now i have a wilson. it rides awesome. its not perfect either. but for a first year bike its good. you can cop out and call it a single pivot for argument sake just like everyone else. but it doesnt have any brake jack, and thats what matters.
and you want to go out there and call yeti's bikes amazing and revolutionary? maybe just cuz you've never looked at how a screen door works.
that shits not amazing. its amazing if you can keep it running well for a race weekend i'll admit that.
the zerode? is a heavy turd. it is hardly the ultimate in suspension design. its one design, but its not ultimate. once again a bike hampered by manufacturing, they couldnt even weld the head angle where they said it was. and you'd have to spend 10 grand to get it under 40 lbs
check out norco's "revolutionary" art suspension. or better yet knolly's way around the no longer needed full length seat tube. yeah. revolutionary. what about mongoose? you like them? morewoods? pretty sure delfs and rennie were breaking those weekly
you want to call lapierre revolutionary? they have four extra pivots that might as well not even be there!
give your head a shake
and give the man the respect he deserves
he is the man driving the industry forward
Its really nice that Mr Weagle cars about the one negative comment on his article, slightly pessemistic of him as i would be focusing on the many positive comments myself, but its nice that such a big image in the industry still cares to an extent. If he's just trying to crush me, the little man, the underdog in this, then thats sad and egoistic at least. But if he's seeing my view, and trying to get his view across (that i think he is) then i respect that a lot and would love to discuss our views sometime.
I.E low slack geo, 1.5 integrated HT, Lightweight. and stiff rear end.