To The Point - Sag

Nov 12, 2013
by Matt Wragg  
Brandon Sloan is Director of High End Mountain Bike for Specialized. Having done a degree in finance, he realised it wasn't for him and headed straight for the mountain bike industry, in his own words he has "never had a real job, all bike companies." He joined Specialized for the 2001 model year and has worked his way up to his position today, where he is responsible for the mountain bikes Specialized make that we're interested in here at Pinkbike.

On its most basic level, what is sag?

Sag is where the bike settles into its travel based on the riders weight, with no input from the trail and no input from the rider.

photo

The sag for your suspension is the distance it moves under the weight of the rider in a neutral, static position.


How do you change the sag on your bike?

Sag is a function of your spring-rate on your shock and fork. For a coil-over bike you can change the spring and the preload on the spring, to change the ride height. For air shocks, you adjust your air pressure.

Compressed bike

As a general rule, the sag at the front and rear of the bike should be a similar percentage of the suspension travel, to keep the ride balanced.


Why is it so important?

Sag is super-important as it controls the ride-height of the bike. If your rear shock has too little sag it is going to be too extended and your weight is going to transfer forwards onto the fork. You're going to be off your balance and you're going to feel some harshness from the rear of the bike. If the bike has too much rear sag then it's going to settle too far into its travel, your weight is going to transfer to the back of the bike and your fork might feel light because there is so little weight over the front. You're going to be in a different part of the stroke, the experience may not be correct so you might have bottom out problems, depending on if you're using too much or too little sag.

How do people know if they have got their sag set correctly?

It takes good, old-fashioned measuring and you have to know how much it should be, which is almost impossible on modern shocks. You might have an exposed body of, say, 60 or 70mm, where the stroke is actually 50-55mm. To a consumer it looks like you're supposed to be using up all of your body under full compression, but that's not always the case. It depends on the shock, it depends on the bike. Hopefully the manufacturer gave them a good indication of how millimetres of sag they need so they can check the rubber O-ring. Average sag settings depend on your bike, for our Epic cross-country bike it could 20% of the travel, for an Enduro it could upwards of 30% of the travel. It depends on the experience and the total travel of the bicycle. Longer travel gets a little more sag than shorter travel does.

photo

Many of Specialized mountain bikes feature the Autosag feature to help riders dial in their sag to standard point with a minimum of fuss. You can spot the system, it's the little red valve on the body of the shock.


Specialized bikes now come with an "Autosag" system, what is this and how does it work?

Autosag came about because if you go to trails you see people with bikes either totally extended, or almost collapsed because people don't have their sag dialled in. It's confusing on the bikes because although it may look the same from the outside, the leverage ratio on the shock can change where you need to be, so the amount of sag a rider needs can be really hard to figure out. Or people just don't take the time to figure it out and dial it in, which is too bad because their bike probably won’t ride as well as it should... Jan Talavasek (one of our crazy smart German engineers, good rider too) created Autosag so that it is supereasy to set up your sag. The idea is that it's quick, correct and repeatable. We tuned Autosag with Rock Shox and Fox, depending on was making the shock at the time, so that the shock settled into its travel where we though you would want the experience on each bike to be. Most shocks have (what we call) a pisser, or transfer, port that balances the positive and negative air chambers inside the shock. The Autosag system works on that balance. You over-inflate the positive air chamber so the bike is totally extended, the riders sits on the bike in their riding gear with the shock fully open, the press the Autosag button and it bleeds out the excess air. It automatically balances the positive and negative chambers to whatever sag-level we set. So 20% or so for an Epic, 25% or so for a Stumpjumper.

www.specialized.com

Author Info:
mattwragg avatar

Member since Oct 29, 2006
753 articles

231 Comments
  • 588 24
 Started as an interesting article. Ended with a Specialized commercial. Is this becoming the norm, Pinkbike?
  • 84 4
 Yeah...I felt like I was taking in some useful knowledge that would benefit my brain and my riding....does me no good since I don't own a Specialized bike.
  • 60 2
 Yep... I was hoping for a bit more insight than this !
  • 15 61
flag mikebike69 (Nov 12, 2013 at 0:26) (Below Threshold)
 ya you fucking binkies
  • 49 5
 it is a sweet advert for the Specialized autosag
  • 13 5
 glassguy
especially a specialized bike that costs about 8k Smile
  • 208 11
 Autosag is dumb, how hard is it to set your sag at 25-30% ?, whats next Autoride? pay me 8k and you don't have to ride anymore, I will send you a vid of me riding your bike 3 times a week.
  • 136 3
 0% sag for life. #Hucking
  • 140 108
 You people... what is wrong with you, EVERY of "To the point articles" is an article taken with a company, it does not have to be sponsored, and even if it was, how is this "bias" making it any less good? How bloody naive are you?! Who else, not a bike designer/engineer currently working in ONE of the companies could tell you something better about SAG? Who qualifies better - answer me that question you cry babies? - Dave Weagle? - how is that guy not biased?! Maybe you believe that there is some bloke who knows it all and does not work in any company? Or maybe Pinkbike should make interviews with mr.X? How would you find that as a relevant point of reference? These are busy people, having jobs, families waiting for them at home and they want to ride as well - It takes time to answer those questions, it probably took him 4 hours or so to formulate those answers - how would any of you try to donate 4 hours of your time?

Think for freaking sake - think! think! think! figure out what are you actually expecting from the world - because you obviously don't know. You have some blurry vision of objective righteousness and even blurrier how can it be applied to the real world. And what else would you like to know about the SAG? RC can tell you enough, but yet he went to extents to start a series of articles including people who work in the business. I tell you too: set it between 15-25% on XC bike, 20-30% on AM bike and 30%-35% on DH sled and you'll be fine! - Why? Because people smarter than you decided so, after spending more time testing than you will ever spend on your bike! Like Brandon Sloan - he knows more than you, and he doesn't want to tell you everything, because he knows it would not give you anything - does that hurt so much?

You're just a bunch of naive children who read about marketing too early in their lives and don't get anything out of that. And you complain every time there is an article form this series, can't you learn?!
  • 138 14
 You've got way too much time on your hands bro....
  • 56 91
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 12, 2013 at 2:17) (Below Threshold)
 I gladly take that over too little time spent thinking. How the hell can people write same thing on and on... a thing that is so bloody naive - and it's always written it in that tone of "I found out something and I will expose it! Enough of it! People will think I'm smart and brave, after they read my statement!
  • 78 16
 One day, just one, I'd like to read an article, without WAKI in the comment section. Sometimes WAKI, just need to keep your opinions to yourself, and stop tarring everyone with the same brush...
  • 26 102
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 12, 2013 at 2:33) (Below Threshold)
 I am just happy to take hate on myself, hate which would be instead directed at people who don't deserve it - I'm a martyr now... negprops are like idles pressed into my eyeball - DON'T FEED TROLLS!
  • 41 10
 Wow Pinkbike, this was a particularly transparent plug for a product. Started off interesting, but quickly descended into the realms of an infomercial. Boils down to this: "this is what you need to do...it's impossible...we have a product that can do it for you". Hmm, people have been successfully setting sag for years without this product so how about helping everyone out with it for real Pinkibike?
  • 21 6
 WAKI is anxious that someone on the internets is wrong or "doesn't get it".
  • 35 23
 Couldn't agree more WAKIdesigns. The majority of people on this site are just a bunch of whingers!!! I usually just have a good laugh reading there whiney little comments.
  • 15 78
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 12, 2013 at 3:03) (Below Threshold)
 Cherovum - no, I'm just anxious about people btch on Brandon Sloan... He's a dad of many of my best friends! And they are so awesome that their parents must be awesome. And the article is also coming from Matt Wragg who is the "voice of Enduro@ - you mess with them, you mess with me!
  • 7 1
 Haha that is a good one
  • 19 6
 It was an informative article for me and advertisements like these keeps pinkbike free; do you think these kinds of websites run on fairy dust?
  • 7 5
 it's impossible to set your own sag, give ma a break!! Pink Bike brought to you by Specialized. once again
  • 33 3
 WAKI: The self-proclaimed martyr of Pinkbike. How noble sir.
  • 27 0
 I was really expecting something more useful, such as how I should measure sag on my enduro fork (seated or in attack position?), or if I should drop my seat to measure sag on my shock. No luck this time
  • 6 0
 was quite interested in this article, then I saw that yet again, it was based around specialized!
  • 2 1
 @elias15 you are meant to get on the bike, trying to not violently push the shock down and just sit in a relaxed position and see how much sag you have after that. making sure you have all of your gear on. Then you want to get back on, making sure the o ring is pushed back up to the air can, and stand in an attack position slowly and then check again and make the sag around 20-25%
  • 7 0
 @Pichy
THIS! This is more informative and to the point than what we can read above... and hey, it's still marketing (for Devinci), but it's done right.

Sponsored articles/infomercials are not a problem for me, and (I guess and hope) less people would complain about them, if they were well executed (like the Devinci/Weagle video). This one isn't, and that's the problem.
  • 3 2
 Ihaztheautosag!
  • 7 0
 It's not the problem of them having specialized go into details of there product.. To me it's that the title of it makes you think it's going to be a more in depth article on sag and benefactors from correct sag and so on.. Not a review or opportunity for a company's product to reach the spot light. If they wanna show that bikes auto sag technology then have that be the title so people aren't thinking it's gonna be something else...
  • 11 0
 Tech Tuesday was so much better than this, no adverts just a basic how-to. All those wanting to find out how to set your sag rather than being told its hard and to buy a bike with autosag, have a look here: www.pinkbike.com/news/technical-tuesday-setting-sag-2010.html
  • 3 0
 And for your bike with Autosag®, order it for the cheap price of $6789.99!
  • 12 40
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 12, 2013 at 6:53) (Below Threshold)
 So now we combined that with bikes being too expensive. Demo has too short stays, Gee should smile more and 26ers for life!
  • 8 0
 You guys know you don't have to spend 6000+ to get auto sag right? It's on a lot of there cheaper bikes. Personally I like auto sag makes setup fast. I don't think it sets it up perfect for everyone but it does a pretty good job.
  • 4 3
 No atou sag on my 8inches lol
  • 16 8
 WAKI, just stop...
  • 9 0
 I agree qman11, these "informative" articles aren't all that informative (unless you're a total newb who doesn't know what sag is).

It turned into a supercheesy plug right about here... "Jan Talavasek (one of our crazy smart German engineers, good rider too) created Autosag so that it is SUPEREASY to set up your sag".

Supereasy is not a real word.
  • 4 1
 Call me Cindy, but I would think manually checking the pressure with a gauge and pump is much more accurate and reliable than Autosag™ in the long run. If you can pump up a tire, you can check your own shock pressure.
  • 5 1
 waki- i don't know if you actually are literally getting as emotional as your responses or merely excercising editorial skills sometimes(which would be genius in this format). it does trip me out at times. judging from some responses to the article in general, we could all use to set our own internal sag meter to 20-25%. too much pressure is bad for responding to any condition, yes? then again, it wouldn't be PB w/o a little bit of this. tuesday mrng WAKIness? ...i don't mind as long as my sag is right.
  • 7 40
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 12, 2013 at 8:09) (Below Threshold)
 ManuelMTB: I wasn't insulting everybody, just few people... and stop writing like a sissie - bullying? Get some real life problem, like pierce your Johnson. Vote?- don't be silly - write to admins... encourage everyone to write to admins - Jesus Pedro con Juarez - how hard is that? Let me get this to tutorial for you:

1.Click "inbox()" in left top corner of your screen, next to the name of your profile
2.Under your avatar you will find Compose message button - Send mail window will appear
3.In the field "to" write one of names of admins like: deeeight, comacruz,
4.Report abuse by writing your story

As simple as that, Simplier than setting SAG. I mean, you will do me a great favor by doing it because I am obviously addicted to that stuff. It makes me procastrinate at work as hell, and takes my mind off my family quite often. If you are unable to do that I can swear a lot, which will send alerts to mods immediately.
  • 5 4
 gotta agree with calling him out on the "bullying", waki.
  • 6 34
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 12, 2013 at 8:30) (Below Threshold)
 fullbug - I thinkg I'm going to send a PM to Protour and we'll gang up on him, we'll do some pantsing, titty twisters, wedgies finished up with a spread leg Koncho
  • 12 4
 WAKI, I disagree. I opened this article hoping for a thoughfull insightfull look into the harder to understand aspects of sag. What I got was a VEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYY long winded article about how i should throw my brain out the window and replace it with an autosag button. I learned nothing usefull from this apart from my bike would have more buttons if it was a Spesh.

HOWEVER, I do humbly ask that you keep up commenting on anything you think worthy of a comment, as your comments are by a long way some of the most thoughtfull and thought provoking comments on PB. Especially on those occasions where I have entirely the opposite point of view. It is nice to read someone elses points of view, that cut a bit deeper than "I love how in fashion so and so is right now! I like it so you must think I'm cool and really fast."
  • 5 3
 Yeah, 'cept Protour's actually been both on hiatus and actually kinda cool for what little he does post. You on the other hand...
  • 2 1
 wow! i need to get more coffee or make popcorn. manuel/waki - safety break - asap!
  • 4 1
 Does Auto-sag work with a 29er?
  • 5 0
 this article went from setting sag is important, it can be difficult to find the exact sag setting for your shock and bike, to now you can have it 100% acurate everytime with AUTOSAG. learned a lot about Autosag, but not much else.
  • 7 23
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 12, 2013 at 9:37) (Below Threshold)
 Ok ok, I'm off you guys. You, who are actually truly disturbed by those "to-the-point" articles being too commercial, I do hope I made you feel a bit stupid about yourselves. Because you should feel at least a tiny bit stupid. No, no - I'm not condemning you, I know that life is a process, you well may change for the better. Now if you excuse I'll go to my Profile > change password > something like dfbsd4hkbf8sdh45klbshld" > Log off. That will keep me away for some time. I wish you all the best! Maybe even Merry X-mas, I hope the Coca-Cola gnome brings you presents! I'll be back though to send my New Year wishes. Cheers!
  • 4 0
 I know what my new years wish will be
  • 2 1
 hey.... only one sram ad this time with the fork... progress!
  • 3 1
 Manuel, ni te enojes hermano, este pendejo está loco de verdad, ignorarlo es mejor.

saludos y a seguir cleteando
  • 5 2
 I can't believe it - I'm on Waki's side today. Usually he makes me cringe - but today there seems to be a lot of pussies that whine about his rants... I think these have been some of his smartest remarks in ages! I too, expected a more in-depth article, but really, can anyone be suprised after reading any previous To The Point articles???
  • 3 2
 People will get even autosag wrong
  • 4 3
 I envy Waki cause he must have sooooo much spare time to expend on Pinkbike. And on Vital, NSMB, Bikemag, Bikeradar... I'm so jealous!!. If I had such a big amount of time....I will be riding my bike instead!!!
  • 9 3
 Waki is one dude I look forward to hearing from.... He is at least ..creative...I do not need to read a copy of my own ideas to appreciate what someone is saying.... If yous guys need agreement on everything just join a club
  • 3 0
 That is exactly correct !
  • 5 0
 bigbossman has pod. post of the day. asclappin muy rapido. had to laugh my coffee on my keyboard.
  • 2 0
 well i for one like hearing about new engineering technologies, i would never have known that autosag was possible.
  • 3 0
 Bring back Tech Tuesdays! Still lots of repairs to cover.
  • 1 2
 I just set it exactly what it's suppose to be then memorize where the seal sits on the shock stroke. If i'm riding somewhere rocky or smooth-ish, I'll adjust air pressure in my shock for more or less sag.
  • 5 2
 didnt realize this was a highschool hate forum. lol cmon guys.
  • 3 2
 Is there an enduro specific sag setting? I don't know if autosag is enduro specific enough for us pinkbike users.
  • 4 5
 Waki: the new protour
  • 1 4
 Measure Sag while in a standing, neutral to slightly attack position, with weight evenly distributed front and rear.
  • 2 4
 I've ridden quite a few specialized bikes over the years and I think it's worth mentioning that most of their shocks have an ever so slightly different length and stroke than what would be considered standard. Also with the leverage ratio which appears to me as though a Lot of the work the shock does happens in the last 5 to 10 mm of the stroke. This means as I've found often if you sag isn't just right it's easy to blow through your travel . On speak bikes I reckon auto sag is an excellent idea
  • 4 4
 If you're British don't say bro, please.
  • 3 3
 Naive is so right.

The consumers moaning that money makes the world go round is hilarious Smile

Most of them would eat dog turd and try to ride square wheels if the industry guys said it'd make them faster!!
  • 4 3
 I want to go out drinking with WAKI, what a lad Big Grin
  • 3 2
 Yes, I would like to go drinking with WAKI,
The thing is I have started reading about the SAG with my serious face as I was interested on it and ended up reading comments with smiley face Smile
Sometimes its so fun reading the comments
  • 5 1
 I just wanna go drinking.........
But yeh im sure WAKI would make for much more interesting pub conversation than 90% of PB commenteers
  • 2 1
 Is it nut sag or nut sack? (=
  • 1 0
 I'm actually impressed, WAKI, I thought you couldn't get anymore belittling. Dude, not everyone is an expert on bikes, lay off them, maybe offer some advice instead of coming in and calling them idiots, people smarter than you have said this and that, etc.etc. Seriously, while I don't agree with the guy who was saying you should be banned, I do think that you should take a break. And if you were just trolling, well that's just as bad.
  • 4 1
 alright MaunuelMTB calm your fucking ham, its likely that you wouldn't have the balls to do that shit anyway
  • 3 8
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 17, 2013 at 12:34) (Below Threshold)
 El oso hambriento comió mi hermano. El oso no tiene hambre
  • 3 6
 A bo wasze kurczaki by tylko fasole i chilli wpierdalaly
  • 1 3
 This has become the dumbest thing I have participated in all week.
  • 3 1
 I like turtles
  • 1 0
 Pisser
  • 75 6
 Now Specialized needs to read some other company's article on internal cable routing so they don't have housing hanging down past the chainrings.
  • 6 3
 I was thinking that too. It's just asking to be snagged on a rock with a crappy system like that.
  • 11 4
 I've never seen a bike from them come with the cables like that. Perhaps, just maybe the company had nothing to do with it. Just food for thought. Sorry to interrupt the circle jerk. As you were gentlemen.
  • 22 1
 had an enduro for almost 2 years , NEVER caught a hose/cable on anything
  • 4 0
 @savmeister has a point - its something the cycling community (including me!) regularly flags up about Specialized bikes but Ive never actually heard of anyone doing it.... perhaps the internal argument is just another fad to make servicing our bikes that little bit more awkward? That said I fully sign up to the logic of keeping cables out of the gloop let alone out of the way of potential hazards!
  • 3 0
 most of the time the bike is compressed anyway so the cable/hose loop isnt as big as when the bike is static
  • 3 1
 I own a SX Trail 1, the rear der cable routes between the frame and the chain output on the crank. A new cable won't last a month without being cut open...
  • 6 0
 Over the last 6-7 years, I've owned and ridden 3 Specialized Enduro's and 3 Stumpjumper's with the same cable routing and have never had an issue riding on some of the rockiest terrain on the east coast. I know it looks kind of awkward and exposed...but it seems to work just fine. Watching guys with bikes that have everything internally routed, struggle to change a cable at a race while I'm back out in minutes is an added bonus.
  • 1 0
 I run a 2013 stumpy and I've never had a problem with them getting snagged. I does cause a bit of a problem if you shuttle bikes on tailgates tho my brake line is getting a bit squished.
  • 1 1
 I have never owned a Specialized and one reason is those stupid cable loops. With all the money they spend on R&D they can't figure out a better system?
  • 4 0
 That routing rules. Lowest friction under suspension movement. You guys won't get that because you're probably running DU's in your shocks.
  • 3 0
 I have had an Enduro with the same routing for over 5 years, NEVER HAD A PROBLEM, and no customer at the bike shop I work at has ever had a problem ever.
  • 4 0
 I agree with those of you who actually ride or service these bikes. My 2010 Enduro has never had an issue with having both cables and the rear brake hose running under the BB. In fact, it might actually protect the downtube from impact damage. Rather break a cable than dent my frame. That said, neither has ever happened. BTW, the cables in the picture above are WAAAAAY too long. Mine are well above my chainring.
  • 5 0
 MBUK magazine here in the UK always comment on the cable routing when they test Specialized bikes, they will say things like "vulnerable to damage" or "easy to split on a rock".

well guess what? I've been selling the bikes (Camber, Stumpy, Enduro, Big Hit, Epic, Status, Demo) for years, sold 100s of them to many different customers, and also owned a bunch of them myself, and never had any issues with the cabling, nor have my customers!

if you are really smart, you can even take a plastic mudguard like a crudcatcher:-

-cut it narrower using snips, so it mimics the size of the downtube
-drill 2 holes to match the cable guide mount locations
-using two slightly longer bolts and spacers, bolt the mudguard to the downtube cable guide mounts (use the mount next to the BB and the mount 1/2 way up downtube)
-then you have a neat frame protector to ward off any of those nasty rock strikes! you might even protect your cables at the same time, which will keep MBUK magazine very very happy Wink
  • 3 0
 ^ this - from the best mechanic I've ever had the pleasure to come across
  • 1 0
 The only problem Ive seen with this routing is dumb ass techs setting it up with no loop. I have the same bike in the pic and I think they left the loop to big. when I set mine up I removed the shock and made the cable fairly straight when the suspension is compressed. When done like that the loop isn't very big. I hate internal routing this system is easy to change the housing and it I also think it provides a little protection to your BB shell and downtube.
  • 7 0
 I've never had a single cable issue caused by them being routed on the underside of the downtube or around the BB. Two spesh bikes, one of them is 7 years old this year (an old hardrock, that frame is a TANK), and not once in seven years has the cable routing been a problem and it has been put through it's paces and ridden far beyond what it was intended for. I don't think I'll ever get rid of that bike.

It's just the kids on pinkbike acting like they know better than everyone else. It happens in every single article. If it doesn't happen I get a little scared. I think the day there is nothing but civilized comments an entire day on pinkbike, you better pucker your butt because the apocalypse is coming.
  • 1 0
 Gee should smile more
  • 3 0
 Believe it or not specialized has some of the most thought through cable routing in the bicycle industry
  • 41 1
 Rockshox's sag indicator is much more useful than the auto sag system.
  • 3 0
 Agree'd. I suppose they have a patent on it or something, but i've always wondered why other manufacturers don't print the percentages on their forks/shocks.
  • 2 0
 Is it seriously possible to patent a print on a tube with numbers on it?
  • 2 0
 www.sram.com/rockshox/technologies/sag-gradients

Acctording to this page, it was registered by RS as Sag Gradients. Damn, I want it on my Fox.
  • 4 10
flag faul (Nov 12, 2013 at 3:52) (Below Threshold)
 If you put your shock on an other frame, the sag indicator would be wrong.
  • 5 1
 Absolutely not. This is a clear percentage of how much the fork/shock traveled. It is not bike proprietary (and could not be for a fork anyway). It's a clear indication of the percentage of how much shaft got into the air sleeve. It's 100% (no pun here) independent of the leverage ratio of the bike

As for the Patent, it's not one. It's just a trade mark that is registered.
  • 3 0
 FOX could still put UN-numbered lines on the shaft. That would at least give us some indication from where we are on the sag. Because "Genuine Kashima Coat" printed on the my shock does absolutely nothing for me.
  • 2 0
 @Enduromaniac: For the same sag at the rear wheel, the more your bike is progressive, the less sag you have on your shock. So if you put the same sag on your shock, you'd have different sag on your wheel.
  • 1 0
 Yes but I don't know anyone who'd be crazy enough to measure the sag at the rear wheel. But if you have time for that, be my guest!
Just one question though: you wanna measure the sag at the rear wheel vertically or taking into account the actual curve formed by the wheel path? Just curious
  • 1 0
 I just measure my sag by the gouges in my kashima... Oops, too far? Dial it back past that scratch.
  • 1 0
 Grab a sharpie and make your own lines, they won't last, but you really only ever need the lines once. Or get a zip-tie, and it'll show you how close you came to bottoming out as well.
  • 37 0
 Saggy breasts can affect my ride height
  • 27 0
 So let's not discuss where your weight should be when measuring! Should I be sat down, in my aggressive riding position, generally stood on the pedals? Thanks Obama
  • 13 1
 Don't think. Just buy a Specialized. Obey.
  • 7 0
 Pack? No pack? Morning poo? No morning poo? Etc. What if you want your Enduro to have a more DH friendly 33% sag? The horror!
  • 1 0
 @wallheater

true that!

3 litres of water, full riding kit including clothing, full face helmet, body armour, 5-10s, etc. can add a surprising amount of bulk to the rider weight when measuring sag
  • 3 0
 The Autosag feature even accounts for your morning poo. incredible.
  • 1 0
 totally. And if you want it to work well going DH, setting sag on a flat surface while sitting on the saddle isn't gonna work
  • 22 0
 To the point- Sag Where was the POINT. Bring back Tech Tuesday and let us get som reel TO THE POINT
  • 12 0
 They should re-name the article "Sag, almost to the point" - bought to you by Specialized!
  • 4 0
 Autosag to the autopoint! (read with transformers voice)
  • 14 2
 Have you thought about maybe taking some form of subscription from your users Pinkbike? Maybe a few dollars a year?

This could then possible assist you in avoiding having to post these infoadverts to prop up your income?

HTH
  • 7 0
 Infoadverts. Thats a nice word to discribe this advertarticle
  • 1 1
 Pinkbike has the Plus option for membership.
  • 1 0
 Does a 'Pro' or 'plus' membership include the articles with the same names, but less advertising and more relevant info?
  • 7 0
 Autosag, because everyone need to replicate the exact same sag regardless of riding style, and everyone needs to pay for extra manufacturing steps for something you do once.
All it gives you is a starting point to adjust to your riding style, is that because we can't weigh ourselves and look at a pressure chart? Is that not a good enough starting point?
  • 4 0
 To sprinkle salt in the wound your paying for something you don't need and can't swap out as it's a proprietary shock. No standard shock option for you!!!
  • 6 0
 You can get a few different fox shocks from spec for the stumpjumper evo. they all have autosag though. Ive got an inexpensive backup for mine. I also haven't changed a DU bushing in a couple years which is so awesome.

I work at a spec dealer and one huge benefit Ive noticed is that when youre a sales person and you have to set sag for customers test riding, demoing and renting bikes all the live long day it gets really annoying and sales people can often "forget" to set it up. The autosag eliminates asking a customer how much they weigh and they only have to sit on the bike once (not 2 or 3 times). This means more of your potential customers who don't have a freaking clue about sag have a bike that is set up right and rides nice.
  • 6 1
 I really like the geometry on my '13 SJ EVO but that shock blows through the travel if you flat from 1ft. Should use at most 5% sag if any. It lacks high speed compression in the trail position and the air spring is not progressive enough. Forget the descent position cause is useless. You'll have to invest in volume reducers (50€ / pack) or you can throw that spesh frame away cause no other shock will fit it. Days are gone where FOX was a benchmark.
  • 2 0
 I know, it's a joke. I love how this is an EVO model, wow 2013 evo, oh wait hang on, the geometry (EVO 26) is the same as the Specialized Pitch they stopped making after 2011.
67 degree HA
420mm Chainstay
150mm Suspension front and rear (140mm front 2010 and before)
Similar standover
The reach is the same as a one size smaller Pitch.
The pivot points are pretty darn close as well.

I want a Pitch with a 142 rear axle and a Tapered Headtube, but to do that I have to buy one of these, which doesn't give me any shock options.

I suppose you could spend around 100 euros to have the shock tuned to your preferance.
  • 4 0
 Khm, good start and nothing at the end. No info on how sag affects riding (and it DOES!), no info on how default sag specified by manufacturer can be too soft or too hard and how to find out that, well, no usefull info at all!

I bought my first full suspension bike a month ago and had a lot of trouble finding the perfect sag for me. Was hoping this article would be helpful. Thank PB for NOTHING!
  • 8 0
 BRING BACK "TECH TUESDAY"!!!!
  • 3 0
 So Pinkbike asks an industry insider to simply explain what sag is, why it is important, and how to adjust it but when the company talks about their innovative solution to adjusting sag on an air shock the internet shits itself... For a basic explanation of the concept, it seems to be ok. Why is everyone pissing themselves over someone from Specialized showing their unique solution for setting sag? I don't own a bike with an air shock any more, but it seems to be a pretty cool idea.
  • 3 0
 More complaining. Does anyone notice the quality of grammar and spelling has steadily declined with these articles? It is almost to the point that (hehe pun) certain sentences must be read over a few times to fully grasp the subject of said sentence.

I demand spell checking!
  • 2 0
 the occasional paragraph indentation would be nice also.
  • 5 0
 Punctuation. Proper punctuation saves lives.

"Let's eat Grandma."

OR

"Let's eat, Grandma."
  • 1 0
 What really twists my melon is the use of "then" instead of "than". Are people scared of this little word when they should be scared of sounding like an illiterate.
  • 1 0
 an illiterate what?
  • 2 0
 Exactly.
  • 2 0
 If your gonna write an article about sag, please tell us something interesting. Not "your sag must be in this range or your ride is too rough or fork is too light". Pretty sure there are lots of guys out their that run much less or more sag with huge amounts of success (normally less). Plus there really is no real info on the use of sag.
  • 6 4
 "Brandon Sloan is Director of High End Mountain Bike for Specialized"

First line of the article, some of you thought he was going to talk about trek? Really? You actually thought he would not use his employers bikes as a point of reference? Jesus-titty-christ.
  • 5 5
 No, my first instinct was actually - hey there will be some useful information on how to dial in sag. instead, it was a lazy product plug. i don't mind if good, useful information is brought to me by trek or spec, but don't waste my time.
  • 6 3
 The article is a very very basic article about sag for people with literally no knowledge.

Now I know how elite everyone here is, and how everyone here thrashes WC tracks and hucks canyon gaps, but surprisingly there ARE people using the site and new comers every single day who don't have the uber elite super gnar pro rider status knowledge that everyone here has.

Yet every single time there is an article covering simple basics the a*sholes come flooding out of the woodwork saying "if you don't know this you shouldn't be on a bike" or some other elitist bullshit like that. There's a reason the communities on other MTB sites are more tight knit and respected, while here, it's a contest to see who can be the biggest a*shole while everyone else tells their friends "stay away from pinkbike if you want a good community."

Did they plug their product? Of course. It's not that big of a deal.

Seriously, if so many of you hate this place so bad, if you think the staff suck so much ass, if you think the articles are such shit, if you think they're paid shills, if you think they're PUSHING bikes and wheel sizes on you, then go right ahead and try to find another MTB site what will put up with HALF of the bullshit you guys fling at the staff here. GOOD f*ckING LUCK.

If it weren't for the articles and content the staff puts out, I wouldn't even bother coming here. Such a huge group of elitist and self entitled a*sholes. Go ahead, bury me, I don't care, it doesn't make any of what I said any less true. The majority of people here have zero respect for anything or anyone.
  • 5 4
 it was a lazy article. ie not much thought went into it. much like your reply cyrix.

formula was - basic definition of sag + product plug. all im asking for is journalism, reaserch, interesting content. I love this site and like to offer constructive criticism, sorry to upset anybody
  • 4 0
 The comments on this page are definitely better than the article/commercial. Funny stuff. Will WAKIdesigns remember his password? Stay tuned till next time kids!
  • 4 0
 I can't take waki seriously half the time. But when I try he has some good points. He is a character though.
  • 2 6
flag ambatt (Nov 12, 2013 at 22:48) (Below Threshold)
 Mmmmmkay. Let's have a little chat, shall we, Cyrix? First of all, I sort of AM slaying shit. However, for the sake of modesty, we'll all pretend I didn't just say that.

Instead, I'm going to point out how even as a pro rider, SAG CONFUSES ME! I'm a rider, not a mechanic. I can change the oil in my car, figure out braking systems but sag? F*ck me, I hate sag... ESPECIALLY on a coil shock. So naturally, as a pro hucker that could really use some help in the sag department, when I saw the title of this little article I was pretty thrilled. However, when I realized it's just a crappy infoadvert for some stupid fancy product instead of good old fashioned know-how, I was a bit disappointed. I like information and I like learning. But when sales pitches are presented as informative articles on bike knowledge, I get a lil' hot around the collar, if you know what I mean.

So cut your crazy ranting and stop assuming that everyone who wants to learn more about their bike is an amateur or a beginner... Or even a girl. Because I'm only one of those things, sugar pie.

And I still wanna learn about g*ddamn sag.
  • 3 6
 Also: most of the above comment was written with a bit more laughter than it reads. I'm a semi-neurotic goofball. Smile
  • 2 4
 Thanks for saying it @ambatt, you being a pro and all. I hate cross country style sag just to make my ride more comfortable. I only need the rear suspension to get my body ready to embrace the hard impacts. Otherwise I'd ride a hard tail. My suspension air pressure is always maxed out with a slow rebound. It's still better that way than a hard tail on ascents too.
  • 4 1
 I never said or assumed that the only people who want to learn more about their bike are amateurs, or beginners, or girls. Don't put words in my mouth please? Thank you.
  • 3 0
 You're absolutely right, you didn't. And I'm sorry.
  • 2 0
 Cyrix- I agree with everything.
  • 1 0
 When I said "thanks for saying it @ambatt". I was agreeing with her for not liking any sag. I was glad to hear someone mention that. Nothing else @cyrix.
  • 2 0
 No worries. I wasn't trying to target anyone specifically. It's just a general attitude I see propagated all the time and it's infuriating to watch. A few years ago it wasn't this bad. There are good people here, but the negativity is just overwhelming sometimes. I don't know how the staff deal with it.
  • 2 0
 @cyrix This is the "everything" I was agreeing with you in my previous comment. It's exhausting to waste so much time reading through complaining and negativity, instead of productive discourse. I don't know why everyone feels the need to tear apart every little nuance in opinion? It's getting really old. Or maybe it's just that I am old? I'm pretty sure the PB guys just ignore the majority of it, because most of it is useless chatter. The last time I hung out with any PB folks, this topic didn't come up because we were too busy having FUN Smile

My comment here is actually starting to sound like a rant in an of itself... oh man. Calling myself out. Time to get back to actual work....
  • 1 0
 i completely agree cyrix. i hate all the negativity too. i wish people would be more positive, stop writing in ALL CAPS, swearing, accusing random pb folk of putting words in my mouth, talking about how much better the site was in the past, and just generally complaining about the quality of the input from fellow riders.
  • 1 0
 Complaining about complainers who complain is sort of like a PB cycle of weird. Wink PS: my comment (that was so aggressively neg propped) was said with complete humor and facetiousness is response to your complaint. If anyone took anything I had to say about how sick of a rider I am (hello?!? Really?) or about anything else, I'm sorry your sense of humor is broken.
  • 2 0
 It's always a good idea to remind folks about setting sag. Though it's nothing really that hard, or magical, and definitely not something requiring a tool to do it for you. Some measuring tape, your gear, your bike, and a friend are generally all that's necessary. Folks who ride motorcycles do it without issue. I don't understand why the bicycle world makes such a fuss over it.
  • 1 0
 But... But... What if? What if we... Don't have FRIENDS!!?
  • 2 0
 Maybe I can use one of these photos to write an article about proper length and positioning of cable house and brake hose. One of the captions would read, "Make sure to leave enough cable housing and brake hose so they are able hang lower than your chainring, optimizing your potential for snagging trail power ups!"
  • 1 0
 Yeah, they need to trim those up a bit.
  • 1 0
 Autosag valve on shock is designed in worst possible way.
It was always catching my shorts.

When my Stumpjumper went to annual service then mechanic changed chamber for me for non autosag chamber.
I am happy man since that time Smile
  • 2 1
 I think its funny that everybody is ripping Specialized for talking about sag and then plugging their own product. Yes, you don't need a shock that can do it for you, but now their is one so it takes the time and tought process out of it. On their 2011 Stumpjumper FSR they had marks on their linkage so you could sit, look at your linkage to make sure the mark lines up, and boom you sag is set at 25%. This is just an extension of that (granted it does make things cost more - but all bikes are getting more expensive)
  • 1 0
 All I ever see on pinkbike now adays s people it bitching to other people. Sorry pinkbike but I'm done wth you now. Can't be arsed with dickheads moaning about everything. Doesn't surprise me that everyone In the uk hates cyclists when we all have our heads shoved so far up our arses. Bye bye
  • 1 0
 Awww, Don't be so sour @Imartin. What kinda UK are you from when you can't handle the PB commentators. People must really take a "p*ss" out of you their.
  • 1 0
 their=there
  • 1 0
 c'mon man, it's not that difficult to set a 25% or 30% sag..
"super-important"? LOL (don't even think of riding without it???).. auto-sag? LMAO.. it's like the bike can predict the height of the drop i'm gonna hit..
what next? auto-body-weight-transfer? auto-engine-cut-off?
what are we doing? motoGP? then where's the fun in cycling..
  • 1 0
 They forgot to mention the most important reason for sag - sag allows the wheel to drop into holes, so the article is very, very basic. Use of sag just to get correct ride height is not correct. Frame builders use frame geometry to ensure that.
  • 1 0
 Funny not to long ago I got into an argument with my boss on setting sag on a Demo 8. I set it at 25mm based on a 3in stroke. Roughly 30%. Gauged it by measuring the change in the eye to eye measurement. He then tried to tell me the correct set up was 30% of the length of the shock. I reminded him the 30% of a 9.5 x 3.0 shock means that shock is bottomed out. After 9 years working at one of the major suspension companies and several seasons racing dh, I think I figured out how to set sag.

As for this article, the first part gave some good basic info. But how to get there can vary greatly depending on the frame and shock combo used.
  • 5 1
 Proofread your article before you post!
  • 2 0
 Can the auto sag be adjustable? Im all for the idea, i think its brilliant but sometimes i want run 30% or 20% depending on the trail.
  • 1 0
 my clue is: don't inflate the red valve.
  • 1 0
 Yea, you can adjust it manually as well. Autosag is just a atarting point
  • 1 0
 For me Autosag always sets to too much sag. I use it as a starting point and compare against what the math suggests should work and go from there. Typically it's been way off.
  • 3 1
 I think that PB should just say … " This is a paid AD for Specialized " This is how PB makes a living … Then you know what is up ..
  • 1 0
 And does the sag of the fork interfere on the autosagging of the shock? does it make any difference, say, if the sag of the fork is set to 10% or 30% when you press the autosag of the shock?
  • 1 1
 This post needed to be written by an engineer. So many "intuitive conclusions" based on mechanical and dynamical speculation. There are so many factors that determine where your CG is in relation to your bike!

Also, while sag is a function of spring rate, the shock/forks movement is a second order harmonic system governed by:

mx'' + bx' + kx = f(x), where the natural frequency of the system is w = √(k/m).

Not quite as simple as "fix your sag, fix your shock".

I'm disappointed that this post was used as a marketing toolby using ppseudo a technical language to justify a sales pitch. For shame, Pinkbike.
  • 4 4
 So.... sag is not effected by compression damping setting, preload etc.... wow, that is new to me.
Thanks for wiping these thoughts from my little engineering brain...

I did not realize that without the latest specialized button on my shock I could not ride my bike well at all.
Thanks Specialized, I will walk home instead of riding my old school Iron horse Azure, with its 26" wheels, different length rear shock (as the old team used to get, as it is an ex team bike) and a 140mm fork up front (it is designed around 100mm). Shame on me for putting a 50mm stem on it and some Strut R750mm bars, all 23lb of her rode so well to work this this morning on trails and road. Now I have read this article, I guess she is for the bin...
  • 5 1
 Well... technically no, sag shouldn't be affected by your compression damping, unless it's locked out. A damper will affect the time it takes to come to rest, but (assuming low friction) the shock should still come to rest in the same place for a given spring rate. I see pretty much the same sag results for a given pressure whether I'm in the climb setting or the open setting (old Fox RP23). With the compression damping turned up the bike will feel harder (compress slower), but if you sit on it for a couple seconds it should give you the same result, with a small margin of error for friction in the bushings/seals.
  • 1 1
 So this might be ignorant but... why design a frame to use up a full 1/3 of its travel in sag? That means your 150mm bike is only REALLY getting 90mm of travel. Why not move the shock mount point over a tad so you get the same spring rate at 10% or 20%, leaving more of your travel available for riding? Am I missing something, or is this just an evil corporate scam to make us buy bikes with more travel?
  • 2 0
 let me take a go at this, if you have a 150 mm travel bike with 33% sag, when you are actually riding and the shock is moving through it's travel it will not always be 33% sagged down, when you're in the air your weight isn't pushing down on it at all, or when it rebounds it may move past that 33% so it's only at 20% or less sag...just a ballpark guess...and then you can use more than 100mm of the 150 mm travel with 33% sag. That's the way I've always thought of it. Am I wrong? Anyone else?
  • 2 0
 The floor before you is usually uneven. It rises, and IT FALLS. You'll have rocks/bumps in front of you to compress the shock and rivets/potholes that require the shock to extend. If you have no sag the bike will drop into every little hole and crevice, making it a very bumpy ride. Or worse, it may skip over the hole entirely, meaning you are without traction until you reach the other side. In an ideal world, you want to sort of float over everything in front of you, but you still want the tyres on the floor for the majority of the time to maximise grip.

As to the 30%? Well, it's kind of a cross over from motorbikes. When you buy a new motorbike it's usually set for around 30% sag to accomodate potholes etc. I guess mountainbiking sort of carried it over without really changing it much. Though you wouldn't need to change the mounting point to adjust the sag percentage, only increase the resistance. Fitting a stronger spring or adding more pressure in an air shock will allow you to set your sag to 10 or 20%. I just finished sorting mine out and it's at somewhere between 23-25% which is what i find the best for me.
  • 1 0
 Yeah I guess I could see that, using the extension into that 30% to soften landings or keep a wheel on the ground when the back is unweighted. It just seems like a lot of travel to me. I ride an xc bike more like the epic, and I would never set it to 20-25%, probably closer to 10 or 15%. There's not that much travel there to begin with and I don't wanna eat it all up in sag, but then again I also just like the feel of a firm ride.
  • 1 0
 You are not eating it up, like others have said when the bike becomes unweighted the suspension extends and continues to track the ground, then when you compress that travel is used. Likewise any time the bike leaves the ground all the travel is available. Sag should be set according to riding style and frame/suspension design. This sag setter is a gimmick, but the benefits of setting it correctly are profound. I run a hair over 30% on my XC bike and it pedals fantastic, and climbs rocky terrain better than any bike running 10%. Fast smooth trails where rocky sections are sparse and you will be fine, I have another bike that I run that way but the suspension hardly works at all, its there to take the edge of jumps.
  • 1 0
 You can also think about it this way: if your shock is set up that firm you will never come close to bottoming it out, so in that scenario you are not using all of your travel.
  • 3 0
 I love specialized products, there sure a whole lot of complainers on pink bike these days.
  • 1 0
 Is it weird that I sagged (25%)my front fork, then added a click faster rebound ( infamous 2013, Fox float CTD 34) and now it seems like it needs more sag?
P.s. I run minimum compression( descend setting) all the time.
  • 1 1
 This article lost me when Sloan said "It takes good, old-fashioned measuring and you have to know how much it should be, which is almost impossible on modern shocks". Really?! I've seen my fair share of people riding bikes with wildly incorrect sag but for the most part we seem to get it pretty darn close with some measurements and trial & error.

That's a pretty stupid statement from a bright guy.
  • 5 2
 gator knows a thing or two about sag
  • 8 0
 That woman who works at receptions tits know a thing about sag.
  • 6 3
 Great cable routing around BB, Spec, way to go ;-)
  • 4 0
 The bike is so perfect but those cables on the BB are UGLY
  • 2 0
 Not perfect, just styled. Spec pep boy talks about sag - 20% on 140mm travel and 5% variance of sag is below perceptive level. Airdampers suck. Spec`ed.
  • 2 0
 The cables in the picture above are WAY longer than they should be. When the bike is setup correctly they are shielded by the chainring.
  • 1 0
 Anyone here really uses 30% of sag? It's seems kinda impossible to me, since both rear and front suspension would feel waaay too soft...
  • 1 1
 I use 35% sag on my dh-bike with 215mm travel/2clicks BO, 200lb/140psi DHXRC4 and close to 35%/silverspring on the RC upfront. It feels very comfortable, traction and plowability are amazing. The Boxxer is definitely the weak link in the setup, good but not good enough.
  • 2 0
 Yeah I totally agree. To avoid harsh bottoming-out I have to run more like 15% sag on my 2014 enduro.
  • 1 0
 On the rear, yes, front, nope, not even close. If I drop fork pressure enough to sag 30%, it's unrideable.
  • 1 0
 Your bikes got fox susp. perhaps?
  • 1 0
 i run 30% sag on my dh bike. If you are running 30% on an enduro style setup you may have a bad time. But i would say it's the way to go for DH. It really depends on the terrain, and how much pedaling you are doing in my opinion.
  • 1 0
 For my 36 Float I find that running 20-30% sag yields great results.

For my Rp23 with the medium Volume spacer I run about 10-15% sag and never get bucked.
  • 2 0
 Whats with that socks dude? I cant see anything else then those high pulled black socks.
  • 2 0
 the socks don't come with autosag man.
  • 3 0
 For a second I thought I was reading an issue of Mountain Bike Action.
  • 2 0
 That auto sag thing, is it necessary? Doesn't it introduce complexity and another point of failure?
  • 2 0
 i enjoy these chances to get to know industry guys a little better. It beats a straight up interview.
  • 1 2
 Could someone explain to me.
1. How the sag of your rear shock effects front fork performance/sag (such that full compression of rear shock unloads front shock completely)
2. How the rear sag/rebound is effected by displacing the travel on the front fork (ie almost endoing)
3. How much if any does the frame geometry change with specific sag settings?

4. Tires, my next question will be about tires and ride height and suspension. ie going from a hans damf 2.35 to a rocket ron 2.0.
  • 2 0
 Dang I just got a banshee scythe w/ DHX. Had I known about auto-sag, I still would have got the scythe
  • 3 2
 That was a totally useless article. I think I am now dumber from reading it.
  • 1 0
 Really? the auto-sag is definately not for every single bikes, looked "ADish" after middle of the article.
  • 3 0
 The socks hahahaha
  • 1 0
 Iv never followed the sag guidelines to the dot, I set up correctly, then adjust from there
  • 2 0
 Should Change the articals name to " to the point- Specialized auto sag"
  • 2 0
 I stopped reading at "finance degree".
  • 1 0
 you normally want about 30% sag just something ive become use to from riding dirtbikes
  • 2 0
 I got your sag right here Special ed....
  • 1 0
 It's a multi tool on the bottle cage, part of there new swat set up storage, water, air, and tools
  • 1 0
 Autosag, just another marketing tool like Enduro, we've been riding all mountain the whole time!
  • 3 0
 Enduro is a race format...All mountain is not...
  • 2 0
 useless tech tuesday article sheesh.
  • 2 0
 crap
  • 2 2
 Started replacing the word "sag" with "swag" to make the article funnier for me
  • 1 1
 Sag.. the least complicated component of setting up suspension. I never set to sag haha.
  • 1 0
 everyone knows..... giant>specialized
  • 1 0
 What is that at the bottom of the bottle cage?
  • 2 2
 Maybe y'all should just ride specialized and then you'll get more use out of these articles...
  • 1 0
 what happened to tech tuesdays?
  • 1 2
 It appears women also have an auto-sag feature
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