Brandon Sloan is Director of High End Mountain Bike for Specialized. Having done a degree in finance, he realised it wasn't for him and headed straight for the mountain bike industry, in his own words he has "never had a real job, all bike companies." He joined Specialized for the 2001 model year and has worked his way up to his position today, where he is responsible for the mountain bikes Specialized make that we're interested in here at Pinkbike.
On its most basic level, what is sag?Sag is where the bike settles into its travel based on the riders weight, with no input from the trail and no input from the rider.
The sag for your suspension is the distance it moves under the weight of the rider in a neutral, static position.
How do you change the sag on your bike?Sag is a function of your spring-rate on your shock and fork. For a coil-over bike you can change the spring and the preload on the spring, to change the ride height. For air shocks, you adjust your air pressure.
As a general rule, the sag at the front and rear of the bike should be a similar percentage of the suspension travel, to keep the ride balanced.
Why is it so important?Sag is super-important as it controls the ride-height of the bike. If your rear shock has too little sag it is going to be too extended and your weight is going to transfer forwards onto the fork. You're going to be off your balance and you're going to feel some harshness from the rear of the bike. If the bike has too much rear sag then it's going to settle too far into its travel, your weight is going to transfer to the back of the bike and your fork might feel light because there is so little weight over the front. You're going to be in a different part of the stroke, the experience may not be correct so you might have bottom out problems, depending on if you're using too much or too little sag.
How do people know if they have got their sag set correctly?It takes good, old-fashioned measuring and you have to know how much it should be, which is almost impossible on modern shocks. You might have an exposed body of, say, 60 or 70mm, where the stroke is actually 50-55mm. To a consumer it looks like you're supposed to be using up all of your body under full compression, but that's not always the case. It depends on the shock, it depends on the bike. Hopefully the manufacturer gave them a good indication of how millimetres of sag they need so they can check the rubber O-ring. Average sag settings depend on your bike, for our Epic cross-country bike it could 20% of the travel, for an Enduro it could upwards of 30% of the travel. It depends on the experience and the total travel of the bicycle. Longer travel gets a little more sag than shorter travel does.
Many of Specialized mountain bikes feature the Autosag feature to help riders dial in their sag to standard point with a minimum of fuss. You can spot the system, it's the little red valve on the body of the shock.
Specialized bikes now come with an "Autosag" system, what is this and how does it work?Autosag came about because if you go to trails you see people with bikes either totally extended, or almost collapsed because people don't have their sag dialled in. It's confusing on the bikes because although it may look the same from the outside, the leverage ratio on the shock can change where you need to be, so the amount of sag a rider needs can be really hard to figure out. Or people just don't take the time to figure it out and dial it in, which is too bad because their bike probably won’t ride as well as it should... Jan Talavasek (one of our crazy smart German engineers, good rider too) created Autosag so that it is supereasy to set up your sag. The idea is that it's quick, correct and repeatable. We tuned Autosag with Rock Shox and Fox, depending on was making the shock at the time, so that the shock settled into its travel where we though you would want the experience on each bike to be. Most shocks have (what we call) a pisser, or transfer, port that balances the positive and negative air chambers inside the shock. The Autosag system works on that balance. You over-inflate the positive air chamber so the bike is totally extended, the riders sits on the bike in their riding gear with the shock fully open, the press the Autosag button and it bleeds out the excess air. It automatically balances the positive and negative chambers to whatever sag-level we set. So 20% or so for an Epic, 25% or so for a Stumpjumper.
www.specialized.com
especially a specialized bike that costs about 8k
Think for freaking sake - think! think! think! figure out what are you actually expecting from the world - because you obviously don't know. You have some blurry vision of objective righteousness and even blurrier how can it be applied to the real world. And what else would you like to know about the SAG? RC can tell you enough, but yet he went to extents to start a series of articles including people who work in the business. I tell you too: set it between 15-25% on XC bike, 20-30% on AM bike and 30%-35% on DH sled and you'll be fine! - Why? Because people smarter than you decided so, after spending more time testing than you will ever spend on your bike! Like Brandon Sloan - he knows more than you, and he doesn't want to tell you everything, because he knows it would not give you anything - does that hurt so much?
You're just a bunch of naive children who read about marketing too early in their lives and don't get anything out of that. And you complain every time there is an article form this series, can't you learn?!
THIS! This is more informative and to the point than what we can read above... and hey, it's still marketing (for Devinci), but it's done right.
Sponsored articles/infomercials are not a problem for me, and (I guess and hope) less people would complain about them, if they were well executed (like the Devinci/Weagle video). This one isn't, and that's the problem.
It turned into a supercheesy plug right about here... "Jan Talavasek (one of our crazy smart German engineers, good rider too) created Autosag so that it is SUPEREASY to set up your sag".
Supereasy is not a real word.
1.Click "inbox()" in left top corner of your screen, next to the name of your profile
2.Under your avatar you will find Compose message button - Send mail window will appear
3.In the field "to" write one of names of admins like: deeeight, comacruz,
4.Report abuse by writing your story
As simple as that, Simplier than setting SAG. I mean, you will do me a great favor by doing it because I am obviously addicted to that stuff. It makes me procastrinate at work as hell, and takes my mind off my family quite often. If you are unable to do that I can swear a lot, which will send alerts to mods immediately.
HOWEVER, I do humbly ask that you keep up commenting on anything you think worthy of a comment, as your comments are by a long way some of the most thoughtfull and thought provoking comments on PB. Especially on those occasions where I have entirely the opposite point of view. It is nice to read someone elses points of view, that cut a bit deeper than "I love how in fashion so and so is right now! I like it so you must think I'm cool and really fast."
saludos y a seguir cleteando
The consumers moaning that money makes the world go round is hilarious
Most of them would eat dog turd and try to ride square wheels if the industry guys said it'd make them faster!!
The thing is I have started reading about the SAG with my serious face as I was interested on it and ended up reading comments with smiley face
Sometimes its so fun reading the comments
But yeh im sure WAKI would make for much more interesting pub conversation than 90% of PB commenteers
well guess what? I've been selling the bikes (Camber, Stumpy, Enduro, Big Hit, Epic, Status, Demo) for years, sold 100s of them to many different customers, and also owned a bunch of them myself, and never had any issues with the cabling, nor have my customers!
if you are really smart, you can even take a plastic mudguard like a crudcatcher:-
-cut it narrower using snips, so it mimics the size of the downtube
-drill 2 holes to match the cable guide mount locations
-using two slightly longer bolts and spacers, bolt the mudguard to the downtube cable guide mounts (use the mount next to the BB and the mount 1/2 way up downtube)
-then you have a neat frame protector to ward off any of those nasty rock strikes! you might even protect your cables at the same time, which will keep MBUK magazine very very happy
It's just the kids on pinkbike acting like they know better than everyone else. It happens in every single article. If it doesn't happen I get a little scared. I think the day there is nothing but civilized comments an entire day on pinkbike, you better pucker your butt because the apocalypse is coming.
Acctording to this page, it was registered by RS as Sag Gradients. Damn, I want it on my Fox.
As for the Patent, it's not one. It's just a trade mark that is registered.
Just one question though: you wanna measure the sag at the rear wheel vertically or taking into account the actual curve formed by the wheel path? Just curious
true that!
3 litres of water, full riding kit including clothing, full face helmet, body armour, 5-10s, etc. can add a surprising amount of bulk to the rider weight when measuring sag
This could then possible assist you in avoiding having to post these infoadverts to prop up your income?
HTH
All it gives you is a starting point to adjust to your riding style, is that because we can't weigh ourselves and look at a pressure chart? Is that not a good enough starting point?
I work at a spec dealer and one huge benefit Ive noticed is that when youre a sales person and you have to set sag for customers test riding, demoing and renting bikes all the live long day it gets really annoying and sales people can often "forget" to set it up. The autosag eliminates asking a customer how much they weigh and they only have to sit on the bike once (not 2 or 3 times). This means more of your potential customers who don't have a freaking clue about sag have a bike that is set up right and rides nice.
67 degree HA
420mm Chainstay
150mm Suspension front and rear (140mm front 2010 and before)
Similar standover
The reach is the same as a one size smaller Pitch.
The pivot points are pretty darn close as well.
I want a Pitch with a 142 rear axle and a Tapered Headtube, but to do that I have to buy one of these, which doesn't give me any shock options.
I suppose you could spend around 100 euros to have the shock tuned to your preferance.
I bought my first full suspension bike a month ago and had a lot of trouble finding the perfect sag for me. Was hoping this article would be helpful. Thank PB for NOTHING!
I demand spell checking!
"Let's eat Grandma."
OR
"Let's eat, Grandma."
First line of the article, some of you thought he was going to talk about trek? Really? You actually thought he would not use his employers bikes as a point of reference? Jesus-titty-christ.
Now I know how elite everyone here is, and how everyone here thrashes WC tracks and hucks canyon gaps, but surprisingly there ARE people using the site and new comers every single day who don't have the uber elite super gnar pro rider status knowledge that everyone here has.
Yet every single time there is an article covering simple basics the a*sholes come flooding out of the woodwork saying "if you don't know this you shouldn't be on a bike" or some other elitist bullshit like that. There's a reason the communities on other MTB sites are more tight knit and respected, while here, it's a contest to see who can be the biggest a*shole while everyone else tells their friends "stay away from pinkbike if you want a good community."
Did they plug their product? Of course. It's not that big of a deal.
Seriously, if so many of you hate this place so bad, if you think the staff suck so much ass, if you think the articles are such shit, if you think they're paid shills, if you think they're PUSHING bikes and wheel sizes on you, then go right ahead and try to find another MTB site what will put up with HALF of the bullshit you guys fling at the staff here. GOOD f*ckING LUCK.
If it weren't for the articles and content the staff puts out, I wouldn't even bother coming here. Such a huge group of elitist and self entitled a*sholes. Go ahead, bury me, I don't care, it doesn't make any of what I said any less true. The majority of people here have zero respect for anything or anyone.
formula was - basic definition of sag + product plug. all im asking for is journalism, reaserch, interesting content. I love this site and like to offer constructive criticism, sorry to upset anybody
Instead, I'm going to point out how even as a pro rider, SAG CONFUSES ME! I'm a rider, not a mechanic. I can change the oil in my car, figure out braking systems but sag? F*ck me, I hate sag... ESPECIALLY on a coil shock. So naturally, as a pro hucker that could really use some help in the sag department, when I saw the title of this little article I was pretty thrilled. However, when I realized it's just a crappy infoadvert for some stupid fancy product instead of good old fashioned know-how, I was a bit disappointed. I like information and I like learning. But when sales pitches are presented as informative articles on bike knowledge, I get a lil' hot around the collar, if you know what I mean.
So cut your crazy ranting and stop assuming that everyone who wants to learn more about their bike is an amateur or a beginner... Or even a girl. Because I'm only one of those things, sugar pie.
And I still wanna learn about g*ddamn sag.
My comment here is actually starting to sound like a rant in an of itself... oh man. Calling myself out. Time to get back to actual work....
It was always catching my shorts.
When my Stumpjumper went to annual service then mechanic changed chamber for me for non autosag chamber.
I am happy man since that time
"super-important"? LOL (don't even think of riding without it???).. auto-sag? LMAO.. it's like the bike can predict the height of the drop i'm gonna hit..
what next? auto-body-weight-transfer? auto-engine-cut-off?
what are we doing? motoGP? then where's the fun in cycling..
As for this article, the first part gave some good basic info. But how to get there can vary greatly depending on the frame and shock combo used.
Also, while sag is a function of spring rate, the shock/forks movement is a second order harmonic system governed by:
mx'' + bx' + kx = f(x), where the natural frequency of the system is w = √(k/m).
Not quite as simple as "fix your sag, fix your shock".
I'm disappointed that this post was used as a marketing toolby using ppseudo a technical language to justify a sales pitch. For shame, Pinkbike.
Thanks for wiping these thoughts from my little engineering brain...
I did not realize that without the latest specialized button on my shock I could not ride my bike well at all.
Thanks Specialized, I will walk home instead of riding my old school Iron horse Azure, with its 26" wheels, different length rear shock (as the old team used to get, as it is an ex team bike) and a 140mm fork up front (it is designed around 100mm). Shame on me for putting a 50mm stem on it and some Strut R750mm bars, all 23lb of her rode so well to work this this morning on trails and road. Now I have read this article, I guess she is for the bin...
As to the 30%? Well, it's kind of a cross over from motorbikes. When you buy a new motorbike it's usually set for around 30% sag to accomodate potholes etc. I guess mountainbiking sort of carried it over without really changing it much. Though you wouldn't need to change the mounting point to adjust the sag percentage, only increase the resistance. Fitting a stronger spring or adding more pressure in an air shock will allow you to set your sag to 10 or 20%. I just finished sorting mine out and it's at somewhere between 23-25% which is what i find the best for me.
P.s. I run minimum compression( descend setting) all the time.
That's a pretty stupid statement from a bright guy.
For my Rp23 with the medium Volume spacer I run about 10-15% sag and never get bucked.
1. How the sag of your rear shock effects front fork performance/sag (such that full compression of rear shock unloads front shock completely)
2. How the rear sag/rebound is effected by displacing the travel on the front fork (ie almost endoing)
3. How much if any does the frame geometry change with specific sag settings?
4. Tires, my next question will be about tires and ride height and suspension. ie going from a hans damf 2.35 to a rocket ron 2.0.
the epic is 20%, the enduro is 30%, the demo must be what, about 50/60% sag??
Sounds a bit much to me...