Stretching Bikes & Winning World Cups
It's unusual these days for a new bike to slip through the net and do so relatively unnoticed. But that's what happened last year when a prominent brand significantly reconfigured one of its mainstay bikes, adding vital millimeters from one end to the other. With little fanfare and pomp surrounding its debut, this revised machine was left to do the talking. On the mountain and between the tape, this longer than average bike didn't just talk, it shouted at the top of its voice, catapulting one rider in particular to two World Cup victories in its inaugural season. While two wins in one year is a significant achievement enough on its own, it was all the more amazing for this particular rider, who had not stood on the top step of a podium for three years.
We are of course talking about Greg Minnaar, who last year became the winningest male World Cup downhill racer in history, with 18-wins to his credit. Having not won a major race since winning the 2013 world championships in Pietermaritzburg, South Africa, 2015 would see Greg miss only two World Cup podiums (Lourdes and Val di Sole) out of seven and score the silver medal at the world championships. So what happened between 2013 and 2015? A lot no doubt, but one thing was drastically different about the 2015 season: Greg’s bike. But was this newly revised V10 really that much of a catalyst to Greg's amazing season? If so, what made it so special? To get to the bottom of this we caught up with a man who knows the story from all angles, and someone who knows the Santa Cruz V10 intimately - Greg's personal mechanic, World Cup stalwart, Kiwi expat, Morzine local and creator of the MarshGuard, Jason Marsh...
Go Big or Go HomeSo why make a bigger bike? After all, Santa Cruz already had four sizes in their range, which is one more than most. The short answer is that the riders on the Syndicate wanted more. Well, Steve Peat and Greg Minnaar, that is. The story starts back in 2009 and with the taste of champagne still fresh in their mouths, the Syndicate team were reflecting on the bikes they'd raced upon at the 2009 World Championships - a race that was of course won by Steve on a custom one-of-a-kind alloy V10. Now, this was back before the carbon V10, and using alloy allowed the team to fine tune geometry specifically for the riders' individual tastes and needs. After all, a frame jig is an easy thing to incrementally adjust compared to a $100k dollar one-hit carbon frame mold. That bike is now in Steve's loft, but it certainly left its mark.
"Steve said for a long time that every V10 that followed never quite felt as good as that one," says Marshy.
Making one-off custom bikes for pro riders used to be commonplace, and something the shift to carbon frames stopped nearly dead in its tracks. With brands investing huge sums of money into carbon frame molds, their focus had to be on the end user first and foremost and not the pros with their unique requirements. Whether or not this transition in materials hampered the advancement in dynamic bike geometry, at least in the short term, is a question we'll leave open for another article, but it was the arrival of 27.5" wheels that really gave the engineers at many bike companies the blank canvas they'd been craving. Incrementally and year-on-year, bikes began to grow in length, especially for Santa Cruz, who added an XL V10 in 2014, but for Greg, things weren't growing fast enough.
A quick fix to this problem came in the shape of reach adjust headsets, which soon became an increasingly common sight on World Cup race bikes, with Greg being one of the earliest to adopt one on his XL V10. Yet an extra 8mm in reach was not going to satisfy either Greg and Steve's desire for a roomier V10. So the scene was set to build the exact bike that a 6'3" Greg and a 6'4" Steve had been asking for. And with the marketplace looking increasingly towards longer bikes, especially within the gravity racing sector, the engineers at Santa Cruz hit the green light on creating their largest DH bike to date: the XXL V10.
"Greg always felt like his bike was too short," confesses Marshy, and after a long drive from Punt Ala to Finale with Peaty back in 2014, the imaginary blueprint of a bike that two of the most successful downhill racers in history wanted began to formulate. It didn't take long for Marshy to make the necessary phone call to Santa Cruz headquarters to explain the situation to engineer, Nick Anderson...
| We'd had quite a lot of success with the 26" V10 and we knew we wanted to go longer with the 27.5" version, but it was hard to know how far to go. You can't necessarily jump on a bike that is 30mm longer and feels at home straight away. We tested a number of prototypes in 2013 and settled on a reach that seemed right. In hindsight, it was only right at that particular moment in time.
After the carbon production bike was tooled in 2014 we did some testing to prepare the team for a switch in wheel size mid-way through the season. Pretty quickly into this we started talking about reach again and it seemed clear that Greg and Steve would benefit from something bigger (Josh prefers a smaller bike). One of the main concerns with this was front wheel traction in loose conditions.
As a result of feedback from the back half of 2014 we tooled up an XXL size but made the chain stay longer to maintain the same front/back weight distribution as the XL. Midway through 2015 we continued this progression of thought and made custom lower links to make the chainstays longer still for certain tracks that were loose where front wheel traction was going to be an issue.
One of the best things about being involved in bike design is using feedback to make a bike better. It's rewarding to get help somebody get their bike completely dialed whether it's a racer or a regular rider. If you can do this for a living and play some small part in supporting a team then you're a lucky man. - Nick Anderson |
Raising the BarBut the starting point to creating the XXL V10 wasn't simply to stretch out the existing XL, but to make it bigger everywhere, including the head tube length - an element of a bike's geometry, which is often overlooked. For years, Greg had been running a number of spacers under his direct mount stem to raise the bars. Initially, this was done to help take the edge of steep tracks.
"Greg would often comment on riders on the track when we'd be going up the hill on the gondola," says Marshy.
"He would always spot riders running low front ends and comment that it would look like they were going down a 45-degree slope instead of a 20-degree slope that the track was on." Lifting the bars would help alleviate this sensation, but as the bars get closer to the rider, especially on a bike with a slack head angle, the reach number decreases as a result - about 4mm with every 10mm of rise which is not something you want when you're trying to develop a larger bike.
Raising the bars in this way also aids positioning for riders with longer arms, but as they experimented with increasing the bar height with an increasing volley of spacers, Greg noticed that the bike was getting harder to turn.
"The front wheel started washing out," says Marshy, so a solution to balance over steer and under steer began in earnest.
" We found that anything under 63-degrees, the bike just doesn't want to turn, it just wants to go in a straight line," but more on that later. Adding a shorter stem would help, at least in the short term, but at the speeds encountered on the World Cup circuit, it also made the front feel 'nervous,' and Marshy and Greg determined that a slacker head angle detrimentally affected suspension performance.
"Past 63-degrees, forks flex more than they compress," says Marshy.
The team didn't like the characteristics of using a sub-50mm stem either, with the whole team opting instead to run, long by today's standards, 60mm stems from UK brand Burgtec, throughout 2014. But after extensive testing during his years on the old Honda G-Cross team, Greg intimately understood the relationship between fork offset and stem length,
"Greg convinced me that you don't want a stem any longer than the offset of your fork," says Marshy.
Greg didn’t want a stem length too different to the offset of his fork,” says Marshy. He said he didn’t like the nervous steering when running a stem shorter than 45mm. With the team all on Fox 40s, which have a 51mm offset, they knew early on that the rest of the new XXL V10 would be built around a 50mm stem in play and that the head angle would be optimised between 63 and 64-degrees to maintain optimum suspension performance.
"The slacker the head angle, the larger the turning circle you need," says Marshy, so figuring out how to boost stability without compromising the head angle and bar height became the next challenge.
Sustaining Stability"You can't just make a bigger and more stable bike by simply making the front end longer or the head angle slacker," jokes Marshy, poking at what some manufacturers have done to their DH bikes. After experimenting with increasingly slacker head angles,
"the guys felt that their weight was still on the back wheel and they didn't have enough on the front wheel causing the bikes to understeer. The bikes felt stable, but they couldn't turn them quickly enough as a greater turning circle is the by-product of a slacker head angle." Having already determined that a head angle of around 63.5-degrees was the best option - also, the stock head angle of the production bike in the 'low' setting - the scales soon came out to figure out how weight was being distributed between the front and rear wheels.
“We worked out a way we could determine the weight distribution of both wheels as a percentage,” confirms Marshy, but how this was achieved remains a closely guarded secret...
“Initially, we were aiming for around 40% on the front and 50% on the rear. This was an approximate ratio derived from the understanding that a wheeled vehicle that races on flat-ground wants an even 50/50 split, yet DH tracks vary considerably from flat to very steep. So we designed the weight distribution of the XXL V10 around Fort William,” says Marshy.
“If you take the course drop and divide it by the length you get the average gradient. This works out at very close to 5% so we thought we would try a weight distribution ratio of 45% on the front and 55% on the rear”.
| Yeah, it definitely played a huge role. I felt comfortable and more centered on the bike, the combination you need to get a little loose and push things. - Greg Minnaar on his 2015 season. |
The next step was to figure out how to achieve this in the real world. Options on the table ranged from,
"dropping the forks in the crown, going up a spring rate in the rear shock or just steepening the head angle, none of which Greg wanted to do," says Marshy.
"The only thing we could do was to grow the grow the back end to match the front." During the 2014 offseason, Marshy headed to California to work with Nick on the XXL project at Santa Cruz.
"We actually came up with the initial numbers while at a burger restaurant one night in Santa Cruz and came to the conclusion that we needed to increase the length of the rear by 10mm." Thanks to numbers obtained from the scales test, they knew that they had to grow the rear by 45% of how much they grew the front, and with a reach number of 470mm, 24mm longer than the XL, 10mm more in the rear was bang on.
The Clock Doesn't LieRolling into Lourdes for round one of the 2015 season and after some pre-season testing, Greg was on a prototype XXL mainframe, sporting an additional 24mm in the reach than the last V10 he raced on. The new bike also had the prototype swingarm sporting an extra 10mm on top of that. Greg was nursing a hand injury sustained at Crankworx Rotorua, but in true DH racer fashion, Greg still competed using a velcro strap and homemade brace to keep his hand physically strapped to the bars. Greg would finish the race within the top-25. It wasn't until round two at Fort William, Scotland, on the track that helped Nick and Marshy choose the geometry for the new XXL V10, and with Greg healthy and ready to open up what this new bike could do, that the smiles began to appear.
"Greg could really feel the difference," confirms Marshy, so much so that Greg smashed the field and won his first major race in three years. With cause for celebration, the Syndicate was naturally on a high, but for Greg, the cogs were still turning on what was possible going even further... After Fort William, Greg said to me,
"Well, we've gone 10mm bigger in the rear, how much more can we go?" says Marshy.
"I was driving across Europe in the team van and I called Nick back in Santa Cruz for three hours - on speaker phone of course - and we talked about how we could make the back end even longer. Nick said we could make a longer linkage for the XXL to and add another 10mm," says Marshy. With the V10 link being machined from a solid piece of billet alloy, containing three connection points - one to the shock, one to the swingarm via the chainstays and the other to the mainframe - moving things outwards to increase the wheelbase was easily achieved and wouldn't affect the handling or kinematics of the VPP suspension system. While Nick began designing and prototyping the new link for Greg back in SC, the team were already in Leogang, Austria, for round three of the World Cup. Greg would follow up his win in Fort William with another podium, rounding things off nicely in fifth. Greg's confidence was peaking and the season was beginning to get interesting for Greg, Marshy and Nick.
Morzine MadnessWith a three week gap between round three in Leogang and round four in Lenzerheide, Switzerland, Greg decided to stay in Europe and continue testing the XXL V10, choosing Marshy's local trails as the perfect location,
"I think Le Pleney in Morzine is one of the most special places to ride," says Marshy.
"We've had guys here testing, doing 38 runs in a day - that was Chris Kovarik," reminisces Marshy.
"The guys used to call them 'pleny-a-thons' - you'd struggle to find anywhere else where you can smash out the runs and adjust things incrementally and on some serious and varied terrain."For Greg, this was a trip down memory lane, having not ridden these slopes since 2001. With Marshy reluctantly on point and showing off his local trails - imagine riding with a multiple world champ behind you - they hit the trails and took in some epic 80km rides on the DH bikes. Yes, this is a thing in this part of the world, using the extensive lift network to access nearby Les Gets, Avoriaz, and Chatel to name but three resorts with bike parks and rad trails only a few gondolas away. After a few weeks of testing and learning the tracks, and with Greg loving life on his new race bike, the team was back on the road and trucking to Lenzerheide - a new track for 2016 and a fresh challenge for the whole World Cup field.
Champagne SupernovaOn Swiss soil, there was something different about Greg's bike. The new 10mm longer link had arrived from California. On the bike and after some adjustments on the Fox X2 Coil from Fox technician, Jordi, Greg was on the mountain and punching in the runs. As we all know, this race was a special one for Greg. Not only did he win his second World Cup of the year, but superseded his teammate and legend of the sport, Steve Peat, to become the winningest male downhill racer in history with 18 wins to his name. The GOAT (Greatest Of All Time) was now on a roll...
From Lenzerheide, the remainder of the season certainly became a memorable one for Greg and Marshy with only Val di Sole's podium passing them by making all but two podiums all year. Greg went on to take a silver medal at the World Championships later that year proving that the adjustments made gave Greg the necessary confidence to become a serious podium threat at every round of the 2015 series.
"Yeah, it definitely played a huge role," says Greg.
"I felt comfortable and more centered on the bike, the combination you need to get a little loose and push things."How Long is Too Long?That's the golden question with bike engineers right now and a deciding factor is how much can you push things and how quickly? But then professional athletes have such unique needs; take Greg's teammate, for example, and not Steve, the other one; the inimitable Josh Bryceland. At an inch shorter than Greg, he too could be more than comfortable on the XXL, yet he prefers a stock size large with a straight headset, a 60mm stem, and randomly for today's bikes, a ten-speed cassette. He's won a fair few World Cups on this setup, so what works for one, might not work for another.
"Josh did really well on that bike in 2014 and just wanted to keep things the way they were, especially after his injury," says Marshy. Josh went on to win Mont Saint Anne on that same bike setup in 2015 so he's still able to win on what could be considered a dated set up,
"I rode his 2014 bike in Spain and I just couldn't get on with it", says Marshy, who is also an experienced DH racer,
"I kept hitting my knees on the bars and my weight was in the wrong place and I just couldn't figure out how Josh rode it like he does?"But perhaps Josh is at the extreme end of the personal and highly unique set up spectrum for a World Cup racer and with more and more riders now opting for increasingly larger bikes, it looks to be the way things are going.
"It's what people are asking for," says Marshy,
"it's about having a bike that you can feel comfortable on because it's stable and doesn't feel nervous. Too many people think it's the head angle that makes the bike stable. I don't agree with that and neither does Greg. It's all about finding your center and controlling your weight distribution." With regards to the burning question, can we go even bigger? Marshy had this to say:
"We talked about that and the market for bigger bikes is there and growing year on year - I liken it to skis... When you start skiing, you ride shorter skis and as you get faster and more confident, you start to use longer skis for stability and increasingly more savage piste you're on. I would recommend anyone on a medium bike to try a large or go up a size from what they're currently on." While one set up works well for some, something clearly illustrated by the Syndicate - three riders, all similarly sized and all on vastly different bikes and setups. But Marshy has a point, and that is keeping an open mind and when the opportunity arises to ride a bike that's different to the one you know, embrace it and add some weight to those opinions.
So where do we go from here? Hopefully, we'll keep on riding our bikes and let the bike industry figure things out in their own time and without upsetting the apple cart too much. Is that too much to ask for? Perhaps, but the fact that bikes are getting longer only supports the notion raised in the article above. The point here is that there are a growing number of riders out there, weekend warriors and seasoned pros alike, all on bikes that reside above the manufacturers recommended sizing range for their height.
Upsizing is not new and thankfully for those who like a roomier ride or those who are simply too tall for most bikes, the bigger bike revolution is coming and for some, it's here already. And Santa Cruz, do they have plans to introduce the longer linkage or swingarm championed by Greg and Steve into their range or offer it to customers looking to gain a few millimeters? They had this to say, "There are no plans right now to change the current swingarm length or introducing longer links at the moment. We want to let things settle a bit longer first." Watch this space, but in the meantime, let us know your thoughts in the comments below...
Visit the high-res gallery for more images.
MENTIONS: @MarshGuard /
@mdelorme / @davetrump / @natedh9 /
@Chamakazi / @foxracingshox
Fantastic stuff.
Isn't it ultimately about the angle your upper body makes relative to your legs, meaning that if you have relatively long legs but short arms you'd need taller bars in order to compensate for this?
Hope this helps/makes sense
Yea, geo changes & longer headtubes(look at the length of this XXL v10, it's huge!) made 50mm rise bars less necessary, but the "cool" thing for a while has been to drop the front end of your DH bike much lower than is probably smart. It might feel good in a parking lot, but when you're pointing that thing down a 45% slope, you need to get them bars up, & your body backward, to keep weight over both wheels.
It's great 650b came along because it has forced up stack heights!
In the picture: playing Candy Crush.
1. Ride what you are comfortable on
2. Ride what suits your riding style
3. Ride a bike that is suitable for the track type that you are riding (you won't see and xxl bmx or 4x bike)
4. Head angle is not the most important thing
5. Match your stem to your fork (50mm for fox 40, 45mm for boxxer generally).
6. Long chain stays don't work for all (the v10 lengthens through its stroke a fair amount)
7. Everyone is different, test and find what works best for you.
8. Greg is trying some radical different suspension setup... it's not all in the head angle, length, stem etc.
.
All that makes for an interesting control loop to be critically damped.
.
.
Most importantly... have fun.
Feeling "in" the bike yet always making sure there was enough weight over the front to maintain bite should have always been the question right, but even this is subject to dynamic forces at various points in the corner, including of course, rider input.
With that in mind, is our true goal to find a bike that remains neutral enough front to rear to not compromise either ends ability to maintain traction?
BTW, I'm willing to bet that "...jokes Marshy, poking at what some manufacturers have done to their DH bikes..." is aimed at Scott. I could be wrong course and perhaps Bendog likes riding the back wheel more than most.
As every bar has his own "offset" between the grips and the center, so the stem lenght depend more of the bar than of the fork.
And you have to avoid too short stems because your hands will be behind the steer tube if your bar has a big "offset".
It would be funny considering it was a Mondraker guy that really started pushing the longer wb, tt, and shorter stem thing. Remember the Mark Weir bike check from 2012 where he up-sized the frame and ran a shorter stem?
www.pinkbike.com/news/Mark-Weir-Bike-Check-2012.html
In there it says he spoke with Fabien Barel, who at the time was with Mondraker. Fabien most likely got it from Cesar Rojo or at least collaborated with him on the concept.
www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/article/interview-mondrakers-design-guru-cesar-rojo-24422
You could be right however. I'm just jabbing at the fact that the Gambler 20 has an HA of 62.0 degrees in the low setting and 62.7 in the high. Never mind stem length, there's a point where the HA gets too slack to allow for proper weighting of the front tire.
"This was an approximate ratio derived from the understanding that a wheeled vehicle that races on flat-ground wants an even 50/50 split, yet DH tracks vary considerably from flat to very steep. So we designed the weight distribution of the XXL V10 around Fort William,” says Marshy. “If you take the course drop and divide it by the length you get the average gradient. This works out at very close to 5% so we thought we would try a weight distribution ratio of 45% on the front and 55% on the rear”. This was an approximate ratio derived from the understanding that a wheeled vehicle that races on flat-ground wants an even 50/50 split, yet DH tracks vary considerably from flat to very steep. "We designed the weight distribution of the XXL V10 around Fort William," says Marshy, "we worked out the course length and divided it by the average gradient coming up with a more refined weight distribution ratio of 45% on the front and 55% on the rear."
Seriously though, I'm 6'4" and that the bike industry thinks I only need an inch or two more than someone that's 5'6" is nuts. Hopefully this XXL, along with Giant's giant XL sizing heralds an overall trend that recognizes 6'1" is not the tallest an MTB'er will be.
Don't you just put each wheel on a set of scales one at a time, and then calculate it?
Mechanic interviews are on a similar plane to this article.
You might want to reread the section on weight distribution (end of sustaining stability), needs some fixing.
Look at the new Nukeproof Pulse for example; an XL Pulse is arguably a bigger bike
I'm 6'2" with short arms. So while most people look at me and say hop on an XL, I am almost always more comfortable on Large because I don't feel as stretched out in the upper body
My wingspan is 3" longer than my height .
Monkey arms!
Currently im on an CL V10 with a 60mm stem and a +7mm works components offset headset and finally I can say it feels about right......took me years of riding like a dog taking a shit to work it out tho.
Lets be honest, much of the current mountainbike is an evolution of 'clunker' type machines that were put together by guesswork and accident, things have evolved and we have seen different wheel sizes being introduced (26" was not chosen by design, it was by convenience / evolution)
We are now going through a phase of looking at our bikes and questioning why certain angles / sizes are the way they are - Is it development / function or just a factor of evolution over time from guesswork?
Its going to be exciting to see what comes over the next few years and I keep an open mind when looking at bike sizing, geometry and design.
All of the die-hards that still clutch their short top tube 26" bikes need to open their eyes and give the new breed of bikes a go, if you dont like them that is fine but at least take a look and stop saying that some of these bikes are no good because they are just not what you are used to.
The future looks good, just get rid of all the damn standards!!!
My XL Transition Suppressor would like a word with you...
For me 5'7", I read it as follows. Find a bike with a not too long TT that has a long chainstay. Had a Turner size XL (reach 424 cs 442) and changed recently to a Glory 2015 in S (reach 408 cs 439). Much better, but will try to go one step further. Minus 6mm reach adjust with 5mm longer stem. Should keep the length of the cockpit similar but moves the front wheel more beneath my upper body and equalizes the front/rear weight ratio a bit more. I'm going for shorter TT dude!
This is to me what the article says. No more rules of thumb like longer TT or slacker HA is better. Fit it to the rider!
Making a bike a cool as this and being happy to share the genesis of the story is top quality too.
Seriously loving my V10C XL - at 6ft 2in will be trying the (hopefully new model) XXL out for Xmas.....
I'd wish we would start to see that become the norm over the entire range of bikes from S-XXL in the future although fiscally it must makes sense to just run one stock length chain stay for all frame sizes in order to only need one chainstay mold so unfortunately my wish may never be granted :-(
geometron.mojo.co.uk/index.html
www.mbr.co.uk/news/size-matters-why-were-all-riding-bikes-that-are-too-small-321374
www.mbr.co.uk/news/bike_news/size-matters-part-2-finding-limits-geometry-sizing-323289
www.mbr.co.uk/news/bike_news/size-matters-part-3-bicycle-geometry-sucks-324160
I just wish bikes were sized by "Reach" rather than S, M, L, XL etc. At least this way you would get an instant feel for the size of the bike straight away rather than having to sift through geometry tables. I know "Reach" isn't the whole picture but it gives a starting point.
Headangle: 67º
Reach: 480mm
Stem: 50mm
Wheelbase: ~1200mm
Chainstays: 440mm
Short nervous roadbikes that average 30-40km/h with BMX sized wheelbase and headangles are just stupid!
Go ahead and get a long, slack road bike. Might be ok for doddling along but won't handle and climb like most people want. Road bikes are akin to XC bikes and not Enduro bikes so no need to make them suitable for steep and gnarly downhills IMO.
The reason they run long stems and huge seat posts is that it results in a more aerodynamically efficient set up, and they don't care about handling.
If you look at that list you will see Canyons certified up to size XXL which is recommended for riders up to 204cm, yet in 2015 there were no riders over 2m in the pelaton (www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/3c2s1k/who_are_the_largest_riders_in_the_peloton)
1. Cross country bikes are badly design. Their geometry comes off road and the main incentive is weight not handling. They handle like crap. Sure they climb reasonably well due to low weight but seat angles are still too slack.
2.Road bike geometry is tradition not evolution. Not much has changed in 100 years. Shorter chainstays yes but not much else geo wise.
3. Long, slack bikes climb super well both on and offroad. So long as you have a long toptube, you can have a slacker headangle (not DH slack extreme) and with a steep seat angle and longer chainstays you can get better traction (less of a problem on road obviously).
4. Road bikes have an seat angles of 73-72º which is slacker than the more modern 74-75º mtb angle (which ideally should be even steeper 76-77º).
5. Most roadies wouldn't like "my roadbike" seeing as it would be too different from what they know. That does not make it bad though. Roadies are worse than the 26forlife crowd when it comes to change, just look at the whole rim vs disc brake thing.
I'm 5'8" and moved outside the recommended sizing range onto a large HD3. Best decision ever. If you're between bike sizes, definitely demo the next size up and see how it feels.
Well that sounds about right. I would have said 50/60.
Very interesting article! So even in DH longer is not always better. All this starts to be really interesting when talking about trail bikes which also have to go uphill, then the compromises are even bigger.
I demoed a few bikes at Outerbike Moab and rode both Larges and XLs, and was surprised that the XLs didn't feel too big. Maybe I've always been used to feeling like the proverbial "monkey humping a football"?!
Great article.
My 140mm hardtail has 475 reach.
I wonder how many size small V10's they sell, would have made sense to just size everything up, go with a low stand-over and supply with 7mm reach adjust headsets to allow a smaller rider to jump on the medium.
As for Josh Bryceland - he does look 'odd' on his large doesnt he... Who knows if he would be faster on a bike that actuall fit him properly?
My current DH has 435 CS with 450 reach and 608 stack and feels proportionate/balanced (I have a 50 stem, 16mm of stem/spacer rise and 27.5 rise bars) but feels overall slightly small, especially at higher speeds and jumping. Just building an XL Phoenix with 442 CS and 482 reach and 611 stack..... once I put the stem/spacer on it will shorten the reach a bit, raise the effective stack and give me a better position. We are all different but this info may help someone.
The comment about Stem length and fork offset is something I had never heard of before......very interesting and makes me wonder about these mega short stems that are being used.
Its pretty clear that the manufacturers that wake up and make sure their L/XL/XXL bikes are proportionate (the reach and CS and stack) will end up winning.....
@alexsin
It's great being Minnar, Peaty or Bryceland who get to ride bikes every day, bashing out runs with different stack, bar, stem, rise combinations, but for the weekend rider its not only hard to try out different things, its also distracting; nobody likes, wants or has the time to risk messing up a ride by trying a new setting that doesn't work.
So, while it's great that the pros do the hard work for us, it's also important to remember that what works for them doesn't work for the masses. Take Bryceland's choice to run a smaller bike, for example. There is also no shame in admitting that certain bikes don't work for you either whether that's due to the geometry itself or, more likely, simply that your ingrained, natural riding style just isn't compatible with longer bikes.
Having ridden one for almost a year, there is no doubt a longer, slacker bike goes damn quick in certain circumstances. But simply jumping on one and being able to go quick everywhere takes time, practice and a definite shift in technique.
Since when is head tube length overlooked? That's usually how increased stack height is achieved.
Anyway The article is very much appreciated, tks.
It would be nice (at least for me) to have the set up details Greg and Steve adopt on both bikes just for a comparison ..
Ratboy does look odd on his size 'Large' - Its small enough that a local 5"7 rider feels his large is if anything slighly too short so I cant imagine how cramped he is on it.
Maybe somebody needs to force him to try an XL on timed runs for a few days.
@Racer951: I'm inclined to agree with you on both statements. We have to remember though Ratboy is odd looking regardless of his bike size
PMSL
Three days later
{Wins World Cup}
"...and creator of the MarshGuard, Jason Marsh"
should say: "duplicator of the muckynutz bender fender"
www.workscomponents.co.uk/reach-adjust-headsets-21-c.asp
Kudos to adult-sized bikes!
My wild guess: 2017 Nomad XL will have 475-480mm Reach.
Am I missing something? But I ain't no Einstein and it wasn't hard
Oh, and www.motomatters.com/analysis/2011/08/08/the_trouble_with_the_ducati_desmosedici_.html
"The claims by many that carbon fiber is too stiff to use in a motorcycle chassis can be put down to a common misunderstanding. CF can be made as stiff or as flexible as the designers want it to be"
The material wasn't the issue. The engineering was.
At any rate the topic was "carbon is difficult to work with" which is false, " dose it really offer any benefits in gravity based applications?" which I illustrated with strength comparisons, and "just look what it did for Ducati MotoGP" which I responded with an in depth analysis of this exact topic.
I'm not an expert like you, but I do work for a bike company.
www.polebicycles.com/bicycles/downhill/evolink-176-dh-27-5/?v=d2cb7bbc0d23
The large has a reach of 510mm!!! Their small is most company's Large!!!
Where is that repository for favorites?
#gregwinnaar