ENVE, Ibis, Specialized - Sea Otter 2014
ENVE's press release from a few days ago pretty much covered all of the tech info that you need to know about their new M Series wheels, but Sea Otter was the first time that the public could see them in person. We gravitated towards their mega burly M90 model that is intended to be used for anything from World Cup downhill racing to Red Bull Rampage chucking, with the wheelset's name referring to the fact that it's designed to be used for descending 90% of the time, with us assuming that the remaining 10% is saved for either riding to the chair lift or chugging your downhill sled back up to the top of the run. Outer dimensions see it come up at 34mm wide and 34mm tall, but the most important number is its 25mm inner width that is far wider than ENVE's past offerings, and a revised bead interface sees the traditional hook shape replaced with a hookless design that they say helps to reduce burping. Rim weight sits at a claimed 487 grams for the 26" version and 509 grams for the 650B model, with both numbers being quite impressive given how tall and wide the rim actually is.
The cost? MSRP is $999 USD per rim, with a complete M90 wheelset costing between $2,718 and $2,750 depending on hub choice. There is no denying that's a hell of a lot of money in a world where one can order a set of carbon rims straight from China at a fraction of the cost, and we're not here to convince you that you should do one or the other, but talking to ENVE revealed some insights into that price. Manufacturing time and mold costs are the two largest factors, with them building the rims in-house at their Ogden, Utah, facility and laying up the carbon sheets precisely by hand. This gives them maximum control over the quality, but it also means that it takes quite a bit of time. ENVE's molds are also aluminum, and they told us that they last roughly 500 - 600 manufacturing cycles before being replaced compared to 5000 - 6000 cycles that the steel molds found in China can do, although their aluminum molds are far easier to work with and move around the factory. EVEN also molds-in their spoke holes rather then drilling them and cutting through the fibers, a tactic that they say preserves the rim's natural strength.
www.enve.com
More carbon rims, this time from Ibis with their ultra wide 941 model. The '9' refers to it being a 29" rim, and the '41' means that it measures 41mm across externally, making it the widest standard mountain bike rim on the market. The idea is to increase traction by allowing the rider to run drastically less air pressure and increase the size of the tire's contact patch. Ibis' Scot Nicol told us that testers are running pressures as low as 15 PSI without any issues - no burping and far less casing roll than expected. Tire choice is going to be the critical thing with the 941 rim as you'll need to find a tread pattern that uses large enough shoulder lugs that protrude out well beyond the tire's casing, although we expect tire manufacturers to begin constructing options specifically for ultra wide rims in the near future. Claimed rim weight is a very respectable 490 grams, and a complete wheelset will go for $1,299 USD for the pair.
www.ibiscycles.com
And speaking of tires, Specialized has two new 650B options making the rounds at Sea Otter, one of which is likely to see quite a bit of use at this weekend's World Cup race in Pietermaritzburg, South Africa. That would be the Slaughter that's pictured on the right, which is a fast rolling tire with low and wide lugs across the crown that should keep speeds high on hard packed terrain. Full sized corning lugs look ready for full-on corning commitment, and it's all laid over your choice of three different casing options: Control, Grid, and DH. The 650B x 2.3" version with the Grid casing weighs 905 grams, and pricing starts at $85 USD.
On the left is a revised Hillbilly that is a direct result of feedback from Specialized's racers who said that while the older version was great in soft conditions, it was a touch squirmy when on the rocks. This was resolved with a revised tread pattern that features new paired lugs across the tire's crown for more support and stability, and lengthened cornering lugs on the shoulders for the same reason. Specialized told us that the changes have solved the issues when crossing over hard packed ground but haven't taken away from it's performance in soft conditions. Weights are on the heavy side - roughly 1300 grams for the 650B version with a DH casing - but this is also a tire for an aggressive rider who places traction high above weight concerns on their priority list.
www.specialized.com
Author Info:
Must Read This Week
[UPDATED] Final Elite XC Results & Overall Standings from the Mairiporã XC World Cup 2024
41937 views
41937 views
Sign Up for the Pinkbike Newsletter - All the Biggest, Most Interesting Stories in your Inbox
PB Newsletter Signup
www.ebay.com/itm/351029827031?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
www.ebay.com/itm/161271315852?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
savings = about $1600...had I bought Enves...lets see, difference being about $2500 plus...hmmm rolling on some non matching wheels but I pull off the decals they will be pretty close..six bolt and shimano lock ring...nice.
yes, I know they are not one and the same.....however I have ridden carbon and non-carbon....and...
road.cc/content/news/57103-trek-pleased-year-carbon-recycling
Case in point? Even a cheaper 5 year old Reynolds road hoop was driven into a garage and the roof rack was ripped off the car. The rim? It was still true as day one without any blemishes. Those crap Chinese rims? One road race on Assault on Mt Mitchell and the rims were toast.
Manufacturing is TOTALLY different and COMPLETELY changes the durability of the wheels. Even if those crap Chinese rims used the same carbon and resin, the manufacturing process and QC is different...it's going to be a shitty rim.
Also, Reynolds (and others) have up to a 3 year "No questions asked" warranty policy. They stand behind them that much.
It amazes me to hear people say "you can buy x amount for the cost of one..." when it's completely well known they WILL fail and are ridiculously poor quality. You're safer on a beach cruiser single wall rim than you are on a crap carbon rim. But that mindset tells me in other facets of life, you do things half-ass and will knowingly redo something wrong several times before eventually caving and doing it right. That's not called trial and error or experimenting or trying something new, that's called being an idiot.
Want to see some failed Enve pictures?
To close out the discussion, Derby has no potential for lost in translation excuses, unless he inherits them from his manufacturer in China...and wants to pass it onto the US consumer, which I know Ibis never does nor will they now when taking on Derby as a partner. The conversation I had with Derby was clear and I feel confident "lost in translation" will not be a quality deficiency excuse...
And if there will probably be or is already, a warranty policy.....
You get what you pay for. I'm not saying there aren't good lower priced carbon hoops out there that can get the job done, but I know that 95% of them suck from testing, owning, and building them.....multiple times over. Not many people on here can say that.
There is no performance or durability advantage of Enve vs say Derby rims. None. You will not be able to prove there is no matter how much you try.
You pay for color matched stickers and warm and fuzzy feeling of getting something "made in America". Except you have no idea where epoxy, fiber, tooling etc are made.
After looking at my friends hand made in America carbon bike frame, I much rather trust a Taiwanese lady doing my carbon layout.
In short, all your "arguments" are nothing more than baseless FUD mongering.
I never said anything about Derby rims either; you inferred I was speaking about them. I have no experience with them, nor do I really care to. But I'll still stand behind the fact that 95% of the chinese no-name rims out there that are molded from an open mold then drilled are crap. Lots of US based companies utilize overseas manufacturing, but many of those same larger names have quite the research, if not at the very least great quality control behind it before putting their names on it. And at the very least, they'll put a pretty hefty warranty/crash replacement behind their products, which is partly factored into the cost of their wheels making them more expensive. Reynolds wheels are chinese manufactured, I'll completely trust them. So no, I'm not bashing overseas carbon production.
On any day of the week, I'll put a set of Zipp, Reynolds, Bontrager, or even Boyd hoops against any chinese open molded rim....Derby or otherwise. I've compiled my own data and have personally seen Zipp road hoops take much higher torsional and tensile loads (read:that includes spoke bed loading) than carbon road wheels almost double the weight and/or materials used (mainly wall thickness.) I'm not saying Zipps are the best, I don't even have carbon rims on my roadbike, but what I am saying is most of the chinese crap you find on ebay, alibaba, craigslist, and other places like icarbonsports are garbage. You might get a hoop that's flawless and work great. But more often than not you won't. I personally don't like risking my money and safety like that...then again, what do I know....
And as far as warranty - companies with best warranties, like, say Crank Brothers, often churn out the most unreliable, crappiest products on the market. Of course they provide "warranty", when charging triple price for an equivalent product. Just another way to do marketing. Even for crash replacement (which is most of the time any warranty longer than a few months necessary to see manufacturing defects boils down to) - you still pay more than just as good a rim.
"Actual users" are not a legitimate verifiable sample. Do you know every one of those users? Do you know the conditions or frequency they ride? Not every person is taking care of their wheels; some people do and other people don't even ride their bikes enough to know whether the rims are actually even better or have owned anything else to compare them to.
It's pretty hard to deny independent lab testing where each rim is stressed under the same conditions, were random samples (read: not given to me by the company ensuring a perfect product) and have multiple people who aren't even cyclists testing the products (my lab partners are scientists and engineers also needing to graduate and are not in any form cyclists.) I'd say that's far more valuable than some group of pinkbike users who may or may not even ride their bikes.
If it's of any consolation to anybody else reading this non-sense, my day job is a service manager at a bike shop. We get a bonus if a monthly set goal is made. I would rather miss out on making that monthly goal (putting money in my pocket) than selling cheap carbon hoops. One, I have to deal with that customer when they come back unhappy and two, I'll be the guy working on the crappy product pissed off that I sold. I want neither of those. I'll sell things that I know work and are reliable. Elitest not even in the slightest as I sell our shop brand stuff if I know it works just fine at a lower pricepoint. But I won't compromise a relationship with a customer over a potentially shoddy product, even if the guy next door is willing to make the sale when I have intimate first hand experience that dives much deeper than just putting them on a bike or reading reviews. I have grades, transcripts, first hand manufacturing experience, and my own personal lab data....which is more than what most people have.
I also never said anything about the price....
Based on me looking at your posts in the forums between replying here....you don't have any first hand experience with carbon wheels at all....
Lastly, it's pretty laughable that you say it's pretty hard to test composite products in a lab...you test them the same way you test anything else. Tensile, impact, and fatigue. Which again proves you have no idea wtf you're talking about or even comprehend what I'm typing lol.
Again, it goes back to not reading....
Yes, I do not have first hand experience with Enve rims. I am not an idiot to pay for it. Others, I do have.
If you want to compare qualifications about who can understand testing and material properties better - you will lose. Badly. So, keep flailing.
The SES and DH wheels have seen 800 lbs and still not even cracked....let alone failed/spoke pulled through.
Your Derby wheels have only seen 719 lbs on their 29 and 775 lbs on their 650b before failing and the spoke pulling through.
So if you want to break it down to it black and white of being more durable which you clearly stated, yes...the Enve is more durable going by posted numbers.
So...what was that again? Oh...and for being "more qualified than me in material properties" your grammar and communication skills say otherwise. And unless you have higher than a Bachelors degree in Materials Science with a concentration in polymers and carbon fiber, I highly doubt it. So I will "flail" on.
When road rims can take the same loads before failure as mountain rims, those aren't very great rims...imagine that the roadie rolling down smooth pavement has rims stronger than your mountain bike. That's pretty embarrassing.
I see it shut you up and proved you wrong, so my point was made.
But if you have solid data presented to you and you still think the lesser product is better well, there's no helping you. We're not talking about value or bang for the buck, we were discussing outright performance since mister axxe said "there's no measurable benefit" or something along those lines when yes, yes there is and the Enve's are in fact better performing.
Oh wait...they cheaper....maybe I was wrong *roll eyes*
But yeah...I'm super interested in hearing how he thinks his coveted Derby rims are better performing when their empirical data is lower in every aspect. I gave tangible, empirical data from both sides proving he was without WRONG....he gave fanboy nonsense and I called him on it. I like to destroy fanboys that spout absolutely false, opinionated data that gives those that are less informed wrong information that's perceived as factual because "they read it on the internet" and took some fanboy's word for it.....
And yes, it is obvious that you are just a student. You do not know much yet, and you mix up some lab test with practical use and considerations.
That is the last I will say to you - I do not normally converse with fanboy morons.
And I doubt you understand materials more than a materials engineer (p.s., I'm a graduate student, hence the reason I said unless you have more than a bachelors degree in materials science)...please elaborate on how you're "more qualified to understand materials" than I am. I'm intrigued....because looking at your posts in the forums and your responses on other articles really leads me to believe you're a 43 year old guy with a liberal arts degree who rides bikes, but has absolutely no idea of what scientific data is. And if you think lab testing is irrelevant, I guess all the lab testing companies do means nothing....but that's right, you're a SRAM guy, who likes real world testing of products. And look at SRAM, all their hydraulic brakes are crap because it has no lab testing and is released almost immediately.
But again...please enlighten me as to how you understand materials better than I do....
now we see the 650 DH tires, how long until we see the 650 Demo 8?
I understand they are wildly expensive, and everyone has to determine their cost vs. benefit ratio for themselves. But it comes off as jealousy and bitterness when you hate so strongly something you haven't used.
It's honestly like hating Lamborghini, constantly spouting off about how your Toyota Corolla is just fine. Yeah. Your Corolla is just fine. But be careful, if you ever get a chance to drive the Lamborghini, you might find out that it actually is more fun to drive. Fun enough to justify ten times the cost? That's a matter of opinion. Meanwhile don't hate Lamborghini because you can't afford to drive one, and don't expect them to apologize for making a car that costs so much.
That's how expensive things work, all right.
Yall also have to realize that Enve uses exclusive resins that have better toughness properties than what is on the market right now. This gives higher reliability rims that are less likely to suffer matrix failure from big hits.
Awesome wheels...