1996 Giant ATX One vs 2015 Giant Glory
With Rob Warner
The final round of the British Downhill Series saw a collection of riders from back in the day who all came together to commemorate the 20th anniversary of the great Jason McRoy's passing. The gathering of old school racers, known as the BDS Legends event, brought together thirty legends who were all trying to see if they still had it in them. Predictably, this made for a race to remember, with the legends easy to spot on the course as many were wearing their original race kit... even if it was a little too tight for some.
Something else that stood out was the shiny new bikes that are a far cry from what these gladiators used to compete aboard. Consensus came back on how good these new machines handled and rode compared to what was used years ago, which was hardly surprising. The new bikes inspired a lot of confidence, enabling the legends to ride even faster than they anticipated, which, of course, called for a visit to the medical tent for some of them.
During the event, longtime Giant rider Rob Warner had spotted a partly period-correct Giant ATX One locked up in the finish arena that belonged to the BDS Events Village Manager, Tony Standish. After taking the bike for a quick spin around the car park, Rob came back having reignited some old, fond memories of racing a similar bike during his prime. We asked him if he fancied a spin down the track on it for old time's sake, which would have been quite the photo opportunity. He, unfortunately, declined with a determined focus on putting in some good practice laps and having a respectable time and position come Sunday's race, but we did manage to talk him into taking part in a bit of an experiment.
Seeing Rob on that old ATX One got the creative juices flowing, and after a quick chat to BDS head honcho, Si Paton, a plan was hatched: timed practice at the legendary One Giant Leap Llangollen, a steep and technically demanding course where the emphasis would be on the bike and handling skills rather than fitness. And how to make it even more interesting? Back-to-back runs with Warner on his 2015 Giant Glory and the nearly antique Giant ATX One.
Rob jumped at the chance, and the date was confirmed.
So, what did Warner have to say after spending the day riding the ATX One and the 2015 Glory back-to-back?
| It was such a wicked day, getting the chance to ride two Giant DH bikes with over a decade between them. The track wasn't that rough, but where there were braking bumps, the ATX One definitely felt rough and definitely a lot harsher in comparison. The ATX One obviously had inferior brakes, tires and narrow bars amongst many other factors. The narrow bars weren't the end of the world, though, but it seemed harder to find balance coming out of a turn. The ATX One was also a little small for me, but it definitely felt like an ATX One.
All those memories of that bike came flooding back; just the way it felt, the way it sounded. On this day, the tires on the ATX One really made it difficult. They were period-correct Tioga's and they were desperate - it must have been the compound as the tread was still really good on them. The main problem was that I literally could not slow down on the slippery track, especially on the steep bits. This meant I could not get off the brakes like I could on the new Glory. In the dry there would have been different issues like the brakes not being as strong and the suspension would then have been more of a factor. Even on this day, I used two fingers on the lever a lot in an attempt to stop.
I really don't think the bikes are miles apart, unlike the times. My Glory is full factory and it was up against an ATX One that is damn near original but was never set up for me, either. Everything just works a bit better on the new bike, but the biggest improvement for me, at 6' 5", has to be the geometry. The new DH bikes are long, solid and safe feeling, and they inspire confidence throughout the ride. Although not as far off as the time tells, the ATX One just didn't perform, but a huge amount of that could simply be put down to the tires and lack of traction. |
Eleven seconds separated the two bikes, but that difference wasn't spread out over the entire length of the track. ''Looking at the times, the 2015 Glory was eleven seconds faster in the steeper part of the track,'' explained Chris Roberts, Head of Action Sports Timing. ''Between the two split points on the flattest part of the track, there was no difference, but then on the short, steep sections where it goes down over the jumps and drops, the Glory was another second faster.'' And what do that eleven seconds look like on the speedometer? ''The average speed between the two different bikes was only 2km/h,'' Roberts said of the difference, which apparently adds up.
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MENTIONS:
@lunatyk /
@si-paton
btw they should have put new Minion DHF 60a tyres onto the ATX. Basically just like the ones from 15 years back but without the loss in performance due to lying around.
There's something to be said for having an old frame and upgrading the components given the geometry if good.
I still get questions from guys who ride with me now and rode with me back then - "so you went from a 2004 to a 2015, is it really that much of an upgrade?", and my answer to that is no. It's definitely an upgrade, but my Enduro build from 2013 cost me about $1800 not counting the frame cost, and my Tracer is a $6500 bike. It's definitely not worth the price difference, despite being better.
http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/12268394/
The points he repeated most frequently was a lack of grip, lack of braking power, and too small of a frame and short wheelbase for his body size. The ATX here was a medium, and what he rode back in the day was essentially an XL slacked out to 63.5. He also said if he was on his old custom framed bike, but with the same period components, he suspects he would bring those times to within a few close seconds. The time differences as they stood were way less than he admittedly expected.
There is NO denying that The Glory is a better bike and far more capable in every way than the ATX.
There is also no denying that the ATX he rode had a Huge handicap placed on it just by being Completely the Wrong Size! lol
There is also no denying that the 70a duro Tiogas on the ATX were going to completely suck for those conditions, compared to whatever tire compound was on the Glory... 43a? 50a?
All things being equal, the Glory is of course going to be better and faster and able to do things way outside of what is capable on the ATX.
However... give the size, braking, and tire advantages to the ATX and things are going to get very interesting on a track like this.
Also I don't know if the Sunday is the best example, as that frame was a decade ahead of its time.
Absolutely. SO hard to establish a good reference between an old trail bike and a modern trail bike. The range of capabilities of a modern trail/am/enduro bike is so greatly different than a trail bike from 1996. Disc brakes and dropper posts completely ripped the lid off of what was capable on a trail bike.
Flat out XC race to XC race, not So much has changed aside from a bit of weight and disc brakes.
But to be fair, heavy hitting trail bikes just did not exist back then. They were what we ALWAYS Wanted, but they just did not exist. It was either XC or DH. Or DH on your XC bike.
CARBON = PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE
Whats wrong with BTR Fabrications? Anything? The Pinner and Gasser look like what you're both after, but I'd love to check out any one of their bikes.
www.btr-fabrications.com/portfolio/gasser
www.lichenbikes.com/projects
Sounds and looks awesome.
Off topic, I've heard it said many times that in the world of superbikes, if you take a ten or 15 year old one and refurbish the brakes and suspension and put modern tyres on, it will equal a brand new one in the hands of a normal bloke. They haven't come on that much.
The old ATX One just looks so short. Like a squashed image from photoshop.
I would love to see a rehash of that design with modern geo and parts.
Imagine still having the old ATX (in the correct size for the rider), but it being upgraded over the time, with modern suspension, some Minions, wider bars and some new 4-piston Zee brakes... I think the time difference would probably go down to only 2 seconds?
I think the big difference in the last 20 years is good 29ers. Now they are quick.
@DirtboxTom - I also had some Monster T's. They were the plushest forks I have ever, and probably will ever own. That was without having a negative air spring which made them even plusher.
Plus, one persons single timed run on each bike is hardly a good sample size, especially when the individual has logged hundreds of hours on the old bike in his prime, training at the world cup level.
Finally, the new glory is more than 11 seconds funner to ride.
Imagine 10% on a 5 minute WC track. That's 30 seconds..
@dirtboxtom: your friend is lucky then. The Monster Ts are pretty much unbreakable, but compared to other marzocchis from around the same time they had an image of being leaky.
@mojomaujer: fork is roughly 2004 I guess, much better than the stock fork indeed. Reading the text they say the bars were narrow and that the brakes really lacked brake power. Also the frame was way too small for him and the tyres lacked grip.
@hamncheez: I totally agree with you on looking at the bike as a whole. But after reading this, I would much rather buy a decent second hand frame from around 2005 for $200 on eBay than spend $2000 on a brand new frame. For example if you compare the geometry of a 2005 Coiler to a brand new Process with 150mm suspension, the main difference is the top tube length, but you could simply buy one size bigger on the '05 Coiler.
@justmatthew: 10% is indeed much if you'd compare two modern race bikes. But if you compare 20 years of cycling evolution it is not much. When listening to all the marketing sh%t they tell us about how we need 27.5 to be faster, need the latest suspension technology to be faster, need carbon to be faster etc, etc.. You'd think that a nearly 20 years old bike should be at least half as fast as a modern bike.
www.motorsportsetc.com/info/spd_mon.htm
Less than half that off what we have seen in the DH world in the same period of time...
Since 1996 the Nissan GTR has gone from a Nurburgring time of 7:59 to 7:08.69 or about a 10% decrease in lap time.
On the Losail circuit Moto GP pole position lap times have decreased by 3% since 2004 (So you could guess that lap times have come down roughly 6% since 1996)
We really dont have a lot to complain about even if it is only a 10% improvement. Of which I am dubious...
And yea inaccuracies and whatever. We still dont have a lot to complain about...
But I agree; It's a matter of how you look at it, and I also agree we have nothing to complain about
Or more realistically, as in my case, we weigh 40 pounds more than when we were on our 05 888 CRs
So don't hesitate to say something different here
I used to have an ATX 2 from 1998 - raced it on and off until 2005, around 1999 every privateer seemed to have one.
The bike Rob is riding is either 1999 or 2000, the only changes from the 1998 frames were the position of the rear brake mount, in 1998 they had it inside rear of frame (Hope No.1 mount I think) and from 1999 onwards they were mounted on top of the seatstay. I seem to remember the Giant Pro riders were racing them from either late 1996 or 1997 onwards.
Should have popped on a set of Michelin Comp 16's or 24's, would have helped with the grip, much softer rubber and from the correct era..
Also its probably worth noting that Rob's Factory glory is basically an off the shelf bike with a few tiny tweaks. Where back in the day his ATX almost definitely wasn't from some of the comments of read about his old set up.
Mostly the brakes!
On side note, Old RF Turbine will weight a pound less than the truvativ cranks.
I was on the lift last summer with an ex-pro just out having fun, said he had a family now so he couldn't risk the injuries anymore & just rode for laughs. He was on a short travel 4X just obliterating the DH runs, making everyone in sight wonder if he was human. Money can't buy you skill, or balls. Seeing the next level dudes ride what you ride will straighten you out about how good you think you are.
www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=133641
millrace.com/images/library/zoom/specialized-demo-8-ii-copy-225595-15.jpg
or this
www.cycleexif.com/giant-atx-990-john-tomac
There was no ATX One in 1996, as already stated...
REVOLUTIONIST!!!
THANX for it!
hell yeaaaaaaaah!
Was the only Giant I have ever owned though.
i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx189/TrueScotsman/atx_zpsl33yotfc.jpg
...I miss my ATX One (with Goldtec rocker arms,so much travel!)
how tall is he actually?