Whistler BC's Vorsprung Suspension launches its newest product, the
Luftkappe. Wait... isn't that the German air force? Close, but no, that's the Luftwaffe.
However, it is an air-force product of sorts - taking what was learned from the development and customer feedback of the Corset air sleeves, the Luftkappe is a new air piston assembly for Rockshox's current generation Pike and Lyrik Solo Air forks. User installable and simple to set up, the MSRP $85CAD ($64USD approx) Luftkappe kit turns already very good forks into outstanding forks.
Features: - Coil-like feel
- Larger negative air chamber
- Lower initial spring rate
- Increased sensitivity
- Improved mid stroke support & control
- Superior bump compliance and traction
- Reduced hand fatigue
- Reduces required compression damping
- Retains Bottomless Token compatibility
- Pneumatic topout instead of mechanical - no knocking
- Optional 10mm shaft clamps available for self-install
The Luftkappe is available directly from
Vorsprung Suspension's web store, or can be installed at Vorsprung's Whistler workshop. 10mm CNC shaft clamps are an additional option for those who'd like to install the kit themselves but are missing that one specialist tool from their toolbox.
For those wishing to have the kit professionally installed in their fork by Vorsprung, there is also the option for the Vorsprung-exclusive
V-spec Tune:
- Factory service of your Pike or Lyrik
- Component cleaned in Bio-circle
- Luftkappe upgrade piston installation
- SKF low-friction wiper seals
- V-spec personalised custom compression revalve
- V-spec personalised custom rebound revalve
- Damper bleed with WPL ShockBoost bio-oil
V-Spec Tune: $285 CAD ($210 USD approx)
Factory service & Luftkappe only: $235 CAD ($175 USD approx)
Luftkappe kit only: $85 CAD ($64USD approx)
10mm shaft clamps: $28 CAD ($21USD approx)
vorsprungsuspension.comvorsprung on facebookvorsprung on instagram
I'm not saying we have to go back to 3kg forks, but a Pike or Mattoc coil option would almost kill my upgradeitis overnight.
Marzocchi 350
But then again, if 200 people email us saying they'd happily pay that much for such a kit, we'll develop one!
Crconception Spring kit is not a titanium one ...
I rode Marz ti spring forks for years with out breaking any. With the new "light" steel alloys (like the spring on my new CK Inline C), maybe there is a cost effective steel alternative now?
It seems like the industry has been chasing the "coil-like" dragon since around the time the VAN36 disappeared (Yes. I am that old). And speaking of the potential cost prohibitiveness of a ti coil aftermarket option. What is the cost of the many different FOX/RS air fork gen's have we gone through since the demise of the coil spring, and we are still getting served with "upgrades" like this new solution from you guys. And no offense, I'll be buying one from you if a coil option doesn't materialize soon.
All the air thing comes down to is weight. People see that a fork is "heavy" (relatively speaking), so they complain about it on the internet then don't buy it. With a steel spring, plunger and stanchions that don't have to be honed & polished inside, coil setups are cheaper to manufacture overall than air. We aren't making whole forks though, that's well beyond our present capacity, so we work with what we have and make it as good as we can.
Steel coil conversions are a lot more realistic (price wise) than Ti. The newer light steel springs sit somewhere in the middle, though nobody has proven that concept in fork springs yet (which are a bit different in their loading conditions and geometry than shock springs). We may consider something along those lines, but if people don't want the weight penalty then they won't be worth us making.
"Spring fatigue life is a big issue. We obviously worked very closely with HyperCo to introduce the lightest possible coil spring without having a fatigue limit. For us that was a big deal, so while we could have made the spring lighter, it would've come at a performance penalty which wasn't acceptable to us. So while there are competitor products that are lighter ours will outlast.
500,000 cycles is roughly 8-10 months of riding for most trail riders. With that being said, the spring doesn't fail, it just looses elasticity and rate. This is also not something that happens after 500,000 cycles, but rather deterioration happens quickly and then tapers."
forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/ext-storia-lok-avy-chubie-push-11-6-a-1018680.html#post12763135
Thanks,
Don
Thanks,
Don
I can't think of any other possibility.
The ramp control comes in 2 sizes for Boost and standard non Boost.
Internally yes. They never claimed anything different.
Will be back to answering questions in a few hours, currently trying to clear out an email deluge.
Edit:: Nevermind, someone said they are the exact same size. That would also explain it.
Charger? Meeeh, there is better upgrade possibility for the fork ;-)
Bit again,van you please show how strong the difference between use of several tokkens and the luftkappe is,especcially at the beginning and midstroke?
Stock Pike: 70psi, 2 tokens. Initial spring rate 88lbs/in, dropping to 25lbs/in (lowest point) by about 1/3 stroke.
Luftkappe: 77psi, 0 tokens. Initial spring rate 59lbs/in, dropping to 30lbs/in (lowest point, around 1/3 stroke)
(all forces/rates rounded to the nearest integer)
Both bottom out at the same force (270lbs). The stock fork has a ~50% higher initial spring rate, while the Luftkappe has a ~20% higher spring rate in the middle of the stroke in spite of the softer initial travel. You can make either one more progressive, I chose this setup because I feel it fairly illustrates the differences given that bottoming force is the same.
Anyway, nice work Vorsprung, I really enjoy your tech Tuesdays and your approach to give knowledge and understanding to the customer, big thumbs up.
FYI we have actually experimented with dual-positive air chamber systems in the Pike, there's one on my desk right now. The biggest single problem with them is the immense overlap between the effects of the pressure in each of the two chambers and the difficulty that poses to setup - the more variables, the exponentially more difficult it becomes to get it right. In that sense, it's better to have a system with 90% of the potential but that you can relatively easily set up to its maximum potential performance, than a system with a theoretically superior potential that the majority of people can only reach 60% of. This is the whole reason RS ditched Dual Air for Solo Air, even though Dual Air forks were able to be set up to feel way better than their Solo Air counterparts. And compared to dual positive systems, Dual Air was very straightforward to set up. If a twin-positive chamber system could be sufficiently foolproof for setup (DRCV was actually not too bad in that regard), then it might be more practical, but until we can work out a system that is simple, foolproof, of unquestionably superior performance for the vast majority of riders' setup capabilities, affordable and reliable, twin-positive chamber systems aren't something we're looking to produce. Of course, that may change if we do have such an idea
In my quest for finding a simple solution to increase mid-stroke support in the Pike, I found this implementation of a double positive chamber in Germany:
www.fahrrad-fahrwerk.de/awk
I have no doubt of the theoretical benefits of such a system, but I really wonder about the amount of static frictions added by the additional piston and the consistency/robustness of operation in time (bad lubrication, seal wear, etc...).
What do you think about it ?
The system I have tried unquestionably works and well and gives you a massive range of tuning with just a shock pump but requires absolute precision when you're setting it up. Even 1-2psi difference can be critical and you must use the same digital shock pump every time if you want to be accurate. The good news is hopefully soon you will have 2 options if a dual positive setup is what you want!
www.novyparts.com/optimisation-novyparts-suspensions-vtt/rock-shox-fourches/optimisation-specifique-pike-et-boxxer.html
You may have misunderstood the all thing. For $180 US you get the equivalent of the V-spec tune (with new pistons, custom shim stack, minus the skf seals) so the price is pretty much the same.
And the all point was just to show that there is nothing new here, others have done it years before
Pas dur, juste factuel !
Max is just factual.
Max is always factual, but it ain't going to help frenchman reputation in Canada ;-)
Just kiddin...Oh... wait !
1. Novyparts optimisation service (240 CAD) include work on air piston AND hydraulic optimisation. In that it is comparable to Vorsprung V-spec tune which is 285 CAD. Of course, I'm reluctant too to send my stuff away but it wouldn't mean the guy didn't work well.
2. Nothing against Vorpsprung, but not being aware of something didn't mean that thing is BS. Max from Novyparts design and produce its own pistons, shim stack, tunes for years and he built a strong reputation amongst the better riders in France, something like Push Industries in the US.
3. " something engineered and tested in whistler, the mtb bike park mecca"
Well, Novyparts stuff is just tested and engineered in WC DH, EWS, french Alps etc, for years...
I'm not not kiddin, check the guy references.
Again, nothing against Vorsprung, I own a Corset for a RP23 and I'm very pleased with it...
I have been running a pike for 4 years now and through a shit ton of tinkering which included running RS revelation air spacers as well as Pike ones to give me a in the middle ramp up compared to what just pike spacers did I really havent thought there was a need for a lot of what this little product is claiming to do.
In saying that, if I can see a real world shoot out between stock and this product and it shows or it is reported by a non-biased user that there is a significant difference than I will be more likely to give it a try.
Stock Pike: 70psi, 2 tokens. Initial spring rate 88lbs/in, dropping to 25lbs/in (lowest point) by about 1/3 stroke.
Luftkappe: 77psi, 0 tokens. Initial spring rate 59lbs/in, dropping to 30lbs/in (lowest point, also around 1/3 stroke)
(all forces/rates rounded to the nearest integer)
Both bottom out at the same force (270lbs). The stock fork has a ~50% higher initial spring rate, while the Luftkappe has a ~20% higher spring rate in the middle of the stroke in spite of the substantially softer initial travel. You can make either one more progressive, I chose this setup because I feel it fairly illustrates the differences given that bottoming force is the same.
Numbers are in.... Stock vs upgrade is the only thing to do next
Call me a skeptic and thats even after your numbers... I just like to see or hear from others how it feels compared to just the numbers. I am not trying to say this little upgrade is not going to be a benefit, I just like something a little bit more than numbers.
I do appreciate you giving me the comparisons in numbers though! thank you!
MRP RCC takes up exactly 4 tokens worth of volume, and the Vorsprung piston is 20mm taller than OEM.
They actually could design their aispring with a larger neg chamber from the beginning.that is what bos have in their deville. If you have the right relation between neg and pos chamber you will get a really pretty linear air spring. It is that simple. Cannot understand why only a few companies get that right. But still i like the awk IRT System Most, because you can trim the springrate and characteristings to your likings. Use it in my mattoc and its great. Problem is the awk for the lyrik costs 190 instead of 120 euros for the pike. Thus I am considering the Luftkappe, too.my 180mm lyrik is supposed for pure shuttle runs on hard terrain anyway.
I suspect they do and so I retain a healthy skepticism for the Emperor's new clothes. As far as I'm concerned the Pike is amazing out of the box. How many riders will really notice the difference, or is the aftermarket just cashing in on upgradeitis?
Errrm, it is diving really enough to Motive.especcially in steep technisch stuff.thus you have to pump it to un der 20 sag,comoensate with too much lsc or use tokens, what Not really ramps the early midstroke.
Yes,there is great potential to improve the pike s and others airspring.
You should try IRT and AWK too really experirece and judge that ;-) it will Open your eyes.
cheers
I'll put this out there too: anyone who buys one of these and thinks it makes no tangible difference or improvement, you can send it back for a full refund. We stand behind our product and our claims. Is it going to be so massively different that you go from being a novice to being Jared Graves just by installing it? Clearly not. Does it make a noticeable, tangible and measurable improvement? Absolutely.
Some people use imofficial coil kits in dh forks and others just use ridicously high pressure for their weight.
When you just Do stoppies or technical stuff you easily notice the diving. Awk and stuff is already apparent when pushing in the fork as vorsprung said.
Thanks for the reply, really appreciate it
Thanks
Tim
Is this normal @VorsprungSuspension ?
Also, does this extend out of the top of the pike further or is it as similarly flush as the original?
If it was as simple as just changing volumes on the pos/neg air chambers to get the fork feeling that much better, isn't that something Rockshox would have figured out? What would have stopped them from either doing this prior to release or on later fork revisions?
If you go to far with this, you also begin to run into progressivity issues. We made the first Luftkappe proto with more than twice the additional negative chamber volume that the production item has. It was amazingly sensitive and great when plowing through medium size chunder at high speed, but for all practical purposes it turned a 160mm fork into a 140mm fork because the ramp up was too severe even with no tokens in there. I managed to bottom the one on my personal bike once ever, and that was the kind of compression that just about breaks wrists. So we had to cut that back somewhat over the development iterations - that was what we found to be the practical limit.
Is there any relation to where the RS dual-position forks have the ports as these don't have the same manufacturing constraints? Also wouldn´t a RS DP air fork make for a good base for mods making it fixed travel but changing port location?
There are several solutions to increase mid-stroke support for pike and lyric
issuu.com/schaefermueller/docs/chickadeehillfolder_a5quer_d1
but talking with suspension specialists (www.novyparts.com/optimisation-novyparts-suspensions-vtt/rock-shox-fourches/optimisation-specifique-pike-et-boxxer.html , www.fast-suspension.com/charger-damper-kit), modification of spring curve/rate implies charger damper shim stack recalibration, so in the end the fork will cost more than a new 36.
So wiill sold my lyric in spring to buy another used 36 RC2...
One good example is the performance degradation as a function of time spent on bike.
Pike and Lyrik feels so smooth out of the box in comparison to 36, but after 10 hours on, static frictions was on par and after 20 hours, I was good for doing basic maintenance on RS (stanchions down, lubrication oil change and slick honey application following RS manual). After 100+ hours on the 36, in dusty, sandy then muddy and wet conditions, static frictions are still the same than after the break-in period (just did basic after ride maintenance like wiper cleaning).
No clunk noise during rebound phase on the 36, noises on both RS. Frontal and lateral rigidity ? Pike is a noodle, Lyric just a little better.
LS compression well decoupled from high speed on 36, I mean I can run low psi and back it with LSC to avoid diving without sacrifying small bump compliance. Once you reached 10 click LSC on pike and lyric, they started to feel harsh, etc, etc...
I can go on for hours but not very constructive, guess you get it...
I agree, I made the same calculations as you. Bought a 36 full price in Canada 2 years ago before I had childs but cannot afford one now with US$ vs CAD parity + importator margin , so went the RS way...
But having both fork on two bikes is a bad thing since I cannot stop comparing an I have to readapt each time I swap bikes... And the readaptation is always on the same direction, like downgrading my confidence in my front end with the RS.
But you're right, maybe I went too mental on this one...
Friend has blown up his second Charger damper this year, after having a Vivid start leaking oil through the rebound knob and having to take apart his Boxxers every month or so because they start making noise.
And why on earth would we need a 15mm axle on a 180mm fork? Aren't they admitting the lack of stiffness themselves by making those stupid "torque caps"? Who asked for "metric" sized dampers?
If they didn't come as standard on my Capra I wouldn't touch RS stuff with a barge pole TBH..
In german online stores I actually found many spare parts for dvo stuff and in contrast to the relatively high and stable price of the complete unit the spare parts come at a reasonable price
Sorry, not gonna stop.
The DPA stanchion does not have the equalising dimple inside, the DPA system equalizes via the shaft through the centre of the piston. If you have installed a solo air piston into a DPA fork you end up with something that will work but it does not have a negative air chamber and is not equalising, it just becomes a super-basic positive only air spring.
images82.fotosik.pl/199/f566c8544a01d8f0.jpg
images84.fotosik.pl/198/3be1d20605ccea4d.jpg
@FindDigRideRepeat the Luftkappe is not compatible with the original Lyrik. They use a totally different system.
I have a corset and it's an awesome upgrade.
In UK i don't know, but not so far you can have the same KIT AIR product in FRANCE + specific piston and custom setting
for the charger damper.
www.novyparts.com/optimisation-novyparts-suspensions-vtt/rock-shox-fourches/optimisation-specifique-pike-et-boxxer.html
You could not go wrong with some extra Volume
The Avalanche will basically be like a totally different fork using the chassis only and therefore giving a totally different feel and adjustability etc. The Vorsprung will still kind of feel like a Pike etc but will give more "natural" ramp up without the use of as many tokens and will also give better sensitivity off the top with more mid stroke support
..........now imagine how good yours/my fork might feel with both the Avalanche AND Vorsprung upgrades!?!?........
Yep, I have an Avy damper in my Pike. The product descriptions basically tout the same benefits, so wondering if just the air spring gets there for less money.
It would be nice to retain the 3 position compression adjustability of the Pike, with the mid stroke support of the Avy.
& you wouldn't have negative springs not getting charged due to a stupid divot filling with the grease you have to use to lube the piston, you'd be able to use oil on the piston like other forks, etc etc etc.
Normaly you have a right and left side screw for the casting ????
www.novyparts.com/optimisation-novyparts-suspensions-vtt/rock-shox-fourches/optimisation-specifique-pike-et-boxxer.html
www.novyparts.com