First Look: Pyga Stage Max - Eurobike 2015

 sprinkle in some norco and you got yourself a good time

 Kinda looks like polygons's collosus n9

 Looks like a Niner Rip 9 RDO

 Looks like a sess..... Never mind

 I see an RDO somewhere there. it's a beautiful bike.

 Yeah, I see a RDO with a pierced seat tube... but better looking than any Niner.

 It looks okay, but pretty near all bikes look the same now. Linkages differ, but only marginally. Norco, trek, this and virtually every other bike than a Lapierre, YT, yeti or Santa Cruz or nuke proof they may as well all be made in the same factory... It'd save them loads of cash. Not one bike these days makes me think, oooooooohhhhh that's different! Smart designers. It's just all guff pulled from a Chinese catalogue of parts and graphics added...

 @cunning-linguist bikes that use similar suspension designs tend to look similar, and generally you can lump them together. By far the most over-used designs involve 4 pivots, a rocker link, and a vertical-ish shock placement. But I do think there are some designs/layouts that do stand out, especially from Evil, Polygon (love them or hate them, they are different), Yeti, the Scott Gambler, and a few Cannondales.

 Doesn't matter what it looks like. I buy a bike for how it rides, not how it looks.

 I owned a Morewood Kalula for a few years and I unfortunately sold it. I really wish I hadn't, it was such an awesome bike. Also, I was sad to hear Patrick was leaving Morewood bikes for other projects and reading this makes me excited to see he's still in the bike industry producing some great new stuff.

 You hit the nail on the head. Simple and it works. Armchair opinions mean nothing if you haven't ridden the bike.

 Agree. Horst link's patent is up if I'm not mistaken, not sure why they didn't go that route.

 nah - it's similar design like split pivot - look here on other pyga bikes - linkagedesign.blogspot.sk/2015/03/pyga-ninetyfive-29c-2015.html

actually braking affect the rear suspension less than most bikes with virtual pivot (Yeti, all DW bikes, Maestro etc)

 Looks like the centre of rotation of the rear caliper is not cocentric with the rotor though.

 let's call protour

 I thought the same thing @balog so when I saw one in a showroom one day I jumped at the chance to sit on it. You are correct, the rear brake does lock out the suspension. Even more amusingly, if you compress the suspension, then lock the brake, when you unweight the suspension it all loads up and makes a horrible noise when you release the brake. The salesman was reduced to admitting it was a fault, but one you wouldnt notice on the trail. No wonder Pyga are moving away from the gravity end of the market.

 @gabriel-mission9 like the fact that shitload of gravity bikes are single pivot with horrible brake squat....bike is much more complex that single characteristic...

 Horst link isnt the answer to everything. IMO they usually pedal like rubbish - not something that is awesome for a stage or marathon bike like this. For an XC SP is great - light, maintenance free and feels good. As @kyytaM said, theres a lot more to it than just single pivot.

 Um yeah, but no other bike has a ridiculous brake system that not only causes horrible brake jack (which to be honest isn't a huge issue) but also locks out the suspension when the rear brake is locked and bends your disc rotors. As well as making some horrible noises and quite possibly causing weird pad wear issues.

This system is similar to a split pivot yes, but there is a fundamental difference. Split pivot was designed by someone who understands that a brake should be isolated from the suspension as much as possible in order for the system to work freely during braking. The Pyga system was designed by someone who thinks that your disc rotor should actually become an important structural part of your rear suspension system whenever you apply the brake. So that your damper can have a rest. Or something.

 how does it bend your rotors?

 @kyytaM, most single pivots with this layout (e.g. Kona) have their brake caliper mounted on the chainstay so that the brake mount rotates in equilibrium to the rotor. Split pivot the brake mount rotates cocentric with the rotor.

@russthedog, On this bike the caliper doesn't rotate with the rotor; as it sinks into travel it will compress the rotor and when it extends it will stretch the rotor.

 no calipers rotate with the rotor - otherwise whats the point???

 The rotor radius the caliper sits at isn't constant through the travel. Not talking about rotating about the main pivot, consider the rear wheel axle point as the reference point...

 @Mitch243 @gabriel-mission9 yeah, mounting the brake this way is really fked up but the point remains - there is shitload of single pivot bikes with horrible brake jack even when they have calpier mounted the "right" way and people are happy with them...

 Ah I get you now,I would have thought you'd break traction long before bending a rotor though right?

Brake jack is fine as long as its not excessive,you do need to ride differently to horst though. Personally I'm faster with single pivots, even on dh. Dunno why?

 Indeed, I love single pivots. However this Pyga design is just plain stupid. I don't understand how it got off of the napkin it was designed onto and actually built into a line of bikes without someone along the way saying "hold on, this design is f*cking stupid."

 In response to all these arm chair brake position experts:

I have a Pyga 110, with that exact brake position and it works extremely well. There is no brake feedback.
I have previously owned Giants, Treks, Spec Stumpjumpers etc etc. A mate of mine was raving about his Pyga. I reluctantly got off my Stumpie to have a go. I have NEVER got back on the Stumpie. This bike is amazing in terms of handling and fun. It is the sweetest bike I have ridden. I go faster and just can't stop grinning at the end of every run.

See international reviews:

bikemagic.com/gear/mtb-bike-reviews/pyga-oneten.html#PIBxoBJKYs24HgJ0.97

www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/category/frames/mountain-bike/product/review-pyga-industries-oneforty650-pascoe-14-48827

and if you google Pyga one will find many more excellent reviews with this braking system.

 Curious of what happens if you remove the shock, grab a fistful of back brake and try and move the rear suspension - a separate issue to 'squat'.

 @Baracuda42
Its not arm chair engineering, its basic mechanics. Anyone who has ever played with mechanno can see in an instant that this design is plain stupid.

There IS brake feedback. I have tried one. It is horrendous, you can actually feel the rear end stiffen up when you apply the brake.

 @Mitch243
You bend your rotor...

 Not sure how to answer. I own one. The bike has won numerous tests and gets raving reports from numerous international publications. But if you reckon they all talking porky pies, I suppose that is your opinion.

 They have good geo and weight, and a reasonable spec. Thats what wins reviews. If the reviewer finds his rear rotor has warped and is rubbing, he's not gonna blame that on the bike, he will put it down to a dodgy rotor and think no more about it. If they did a long term test, they may notice that a few rotors get bent and put it down to a spell of bad luck. Unless they actually have some mechanical understanding spot the fatally flawed design, it is unlikely they will put 2 and 2 together and realise their poor performing rear brake is down to the supid design, not just a dodgy brake.

For normal riding, this design isn't gonna be too problematic, you will prob just find yourself replacing rear rotors and pads slightly more often. If you repeatedly do long hard descents tho, your rear brake is gonna suffer mojor probs. Hence why I pointed out "no wonder they are moving away from the gravity market..."

 Morewood isn't new to this, I think if the design wasn't working by now, he would've changed something. All the previous model PYGA dual suspensions run the same braking system and they work. Look at the Plus5 concept, why haven't any of the big companies thought of this? It shows his attention to detail. He wouldn't be putting something on his bikes unless he was 100% sure it was right. Don't be a doos.

 Completely agree with Simon, but "gabriel-mission9" does not have a clue what he is talking about.
Pyga's are winning all our local enduros.
I know of many people who have just completed Cape Epics, Joburg to Seas, etc on these Pygas - yes, among the hardest 8-9 day races in the world, and all their training (15-20 hours a week, for 6 months) - all on Pyga's with this brake design.
All love it, no one has ever spoken about brake feedback and no one has ever had a warping rear rotor.
But this twat reckons he knows better. Doos.

 I also don't see how they're moving away from the gravity market with the Pascoe and the OneTwenty all getting facelifts with the recent range thats been released. Just like any company wanting to grow, they're just expanding into other markets.

 I tried one. The rotor bent while i was bouncing up and down on it with the brake locked. Call me a twat all you want, its a fucking stupid design, I have actual proof. Other than that, they are good bikes, but there are plenty of good bikes out there that don't have a brake layout with fatal flaws.

 You have to be a complete retard to bend a rotor bouncing up and down the bike. The force is in line with the disk, why would it bend?
Please excuse my frankness, but I have never heard such rubbish before.
Just say you work for Specialized and we can get on with our lives.

 Hahaha. So now it's my fault the rotor bent? God you really have your head quite a long way up your arse don't you. If you don't understand why the rotor bent I am afraid you just don't have a mind capable of understanding simple mechanics. Let me try and make it really simple for you. If you get hold of an piece of metal at two different points, then force those two points to get closer together, the metal between them will buckle. This effect will happen the same way no matter how intelligent it stupid the person applying the force is. To clarify (as you seem confused) the iq if the person applying the force will have no effect on the outcome of the experiment. Which is lucky as it means you can try it for yourself. I might suggest you get an adult to supervise you just in case though.

 I own one. Have ridden it hard for over a year, with the original rotors (that were cheap ones, R200 = approx. $16 USD), still intact, inline and working perfectly. Also running cheap Deore brakes. Don't know how you are jumping up and down, but have to agree with Baracuda42, you must be doing something pretty wrong. Still maintain the fact that Pat is a perfectionist, he wouldn't put something on his bikes that doesn't work, let alone that is fundamentally flawed.

 then you haven't ridden it hard. if you really don't get it, try an experiment:

Deflate your shock or remove the spring.
With the rear end at full extension, lock your brake on hard.
With the rear brake held on hard, sit on your seat and put weight on it. the suspension will compress, but not to full travel as with the brake locked on, the suspension will be semi locked out. Your disc rotor is now playing the role of the spring you removed. This is not a role it was designed for. This hopefully shouldn't damage your rotor. However if you do it the other way round (fully compress suspension/lock brake/allow spring to return sus to full travel) your rotor will be bent by the process as the caliper tries to crush the rotor towards the hub.

Hopefully you will now see what I am talking about.
Re-inflate (or spring) your shock.
Go ride.
Wince next time you overcook something and skid into some braking bumps with your rear wheel locked. Unless you believe your disc rotor is a viable alternative to a shock spring.
No other brake design suffers from this issue. All other designs will allow the rear suspension to move freely through its travel no matter what the rear brake is doing. Because they are designed by people who know what they are doing. Morewood has made a few bikes with pretty good geo. This really isn't hard/anything to be impressed by. There are very few bikes out there these days with bad geo.


This doesn't even touch on the fact that to work properly, your rotor and pads need to bed into each other. As the position of the pads migrates over the surface of the disc with this design, the pads and rotor won't ever bed in properly. If you would care to point out any advantages this design may offer over a proper floating caliper design (fsr/split pivot etc) please do. I am keen to see what the imagined point in this stupid design is. As far as I can tell there is absolutely no reason for it, other than dodging patents which have now expired anyway.

 I've done over 10000 kays on my 110 in the last two years and haven't suffered any of the problems you describe. Im not particularly talented and weigh over 100kgs, so if the brake design was flawed I would have certainly highlighted the issue by now given the way I can hang on my brakes when I overcook my ability. ... And my Max arrives in October...

 Have to agree with the Pyga fans here. Obviously Gabriel just wrote a complete review just by sitting on a bike in a showroom and just bouncing around like a retard.
Anyone who has ever ridden this bike (incl reviews of magazines all over the world) know these bikes are just on point.

 Ok this is getting silly. I haven't "reviewed" the bike. I have said from what I have heard they have good geo and ride well, but the braking system is fatally flawed. Here is the most coherent argument I have put forward:

With the rear brake held on hard, sit on your seat and put weight on it. the suspension will compress, but not to full travel as with the brake locked on, the suspension will be semi locked out. Your disc rotor is now playing the role of the spring you removed. This is not a role it was designed for. No other brake design suffers from this issue. All other designs will allow the rear suspension to move freely through its travel no matter what the rear brake is doing.

Here is the best argument you guys have put forward:

Retard
&
I have ridden one, and I haven't had problems


I ride a Session. One of the old tinfoil downtube ones. I have put a couple of dents in it but no cracks. This doesn't mean a thicker walled downtube is not a good idea. However at least the thin walls allow for a stiff frame that is also light. The design has pro's and con's.

I have offered my description of the cons of the Pyga brake layout, but no-one has come up with any advantages it offers over a split pivot or fsr design. If someone can come up with one, I will accept it. However simply calling me a retard does little more than make me more confident that I am correct, as you can not come up with a real rebuttal. The Pygas work yes. But a Pyga with a split pivot or fsr design would work better. There is no reason not to use split pivot or fsr other than for patent dodging. Can anyone out there refute that?

 I do understand what you are saying, I am not denying the logic in it either. Although, I don't see what the relevance of what the bike does without the spring set or with the rear shock deflated? It isn't designed to run like that and could completely understand if something were to go wrong if you did do that.

I am merely arguing that if it were to have a detrimental impact on the ride of the bike, it simply wouldn't be there. I can't speak for Pat, but I do know him, and I know there will be a reason for it. I also don't think that just because he doesn't use fsr or split pivot, doesn't mean to say he is dodging patents. The whole range of PYGA bikes use the brakes mounted on the seatstay, bar the hardtail, and the reviews I've seen on the OneTwenty and the Pascoe have all been extremely positive, not only locally but internationally too. No mention of bent rotors, and if you can now tell me that those guys can't ride hard, well that is being a bit stubborn.

He was a pro downhiller himself; the guys who test the prototypes extensively, Mark Hopkins etc. all ride hard. Something like this wouldn't go unnoticed if it was going to be an issue.

 the argument we put forward is that your reasoning does not make sense.
Ride the bike, brake all you wish, and as per quoted in most reviews, you will find that the bike handles very well under braking.
I have one, I ride it often and very hard (100kg down monstrous hills). Compared to my previous Spec, Giants etc, it is fantastic.
Don't me to get my head out of my arse, you are the one telling me that if you clamp the inside and outside points of a disk, and turn them in line with the axis of the disk, it will warp / bend. Do you know the force required to do that, it is insane.
Get some decent disks mate.

 See Pat's logic here on the rear brake and more reviews:

www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/category/bikes/mountain-bikes/product/review-pyga-industries-oneten29-46488

www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/category/frames/mountain-bike/product/review-pyga-industries-oneten29-14-48762

www.attackmtb.com/ride-review-pyga-oneforty650

 @Simonpurdon
Thankyou. That was more like the response I had hoped for in the first place. Your comment has been +propped. One of the +s was from me. I know the situation I described (removing spring, sitting on bike etc) would never happen during normal use but some similar sort of situation could occur on the trail (screwing up really badly, overshooting a jump and landing flat with your rear brake locked in a desperate attempt to slow down before the next corner, or similar) Not often, but also not unheard of. When I tried to simulate similar occurrences by bouncing about on the bike with the brake locked, the rotor went from being dead straight to rubbing one of the pads occasionally when the wheel was turning. Not the end of the world I know, but not exactly what you want either. Especially if the design has no real advantages. You are right in saying the bike has definitely been tested by hard riders,better riders than me, and has good reviews, so clearly the system works well enough not to excessively hinder an otherwise good bike. I just cannot get my head round why they use the system at all when (at least in my opinion) an fsr or split pivot would work better. You say you know Pat. This is cool. If you ever see him and ask about it I would love to know his answer. I am well prepared to be shot down completely. Feel free to inbox me in future if you find out, I would be extremely grateful.

@Baracuda42
I know a good surgeon if you ever decide you need help removing your head from your arse. He's very discrete. Feel free to inbox me in future if you want his number.

 From Bikeradar review of the 110:



We rode the course after all the weekend's racing had wrapped up, and even on the well-worn braking bumps the PYGA's rear wheel was surprisingly planted. Moreover, the unique rear brake setup – the caliper is mounted to the seat stays despite having pivots located above the rear dropouts – provides a slight floating arrangement that keeps the rear end from locking up when the pads are engaged.

"I wanted to design a bike that could provide an active suspension under braking, but it needed to be single-pivot without infringing on any patents," Morewood said. "I found that by placing the pivot as close to the rear axle as possible I could achieve this. It doesn't give the same braking anti-squat that other brands have, but there is another small benefit: the pads move up and down slightly on the disc rotor, preventing grooves from wearing into the pads or rotor."

 "I wanted to design a bike that could provide an active suspension under braking, but it needed to be single-pivot without infringing on any patents"
"small benefit: the pads move up and down slightly on the disc rotor, preventing grooves from wearing into the pads or rotor."

Cool. I have been looking for an explanation like this for a long time. Have my own reservations about the pad/rotor wear thing, but at least I know Pats official stance now. Cheers man!

 Hey gabriel-mission9

I have a bit more info for you from one of my local forums, that may settle your concerns a bit more than what's been said here...

Hey Guys,

Just want to provide some insight into the whole braking discussion. Below are graphs created by the owner of Linkage, a linkage program used by the vast majority of bike designs, providing accurate information.

"Anti-rise" is worked out as a percentage and relates to how much the suspension will or will not compress under braking. The higher the percentage of Anti-Rise, the stiffer and less responsive your suspension will be under braking. Leading to the feeling of 'Brake Jack' and more rear wheel chatter under braking. You will notice the conventional single pivot design (Sesta) has around a 90% anti-rise, and the horst link and VPP linkages are in the 60% range. Generally in a good design one will notice a lower percentage in downhill bikes due to extreme terrain conditions, accompanied by a much more progressive leverage curve. For XC and Trail bikes these parameters will change accordingly.

On the PYGA braking system the brake pads will move up and down on the rotor by aprox 2-3mm. It is much easier for the pad to move up and down on the rotor, than the rotational force of the pads against the rotor. Therefore the up and down movement is not noticable (while riding). A static test will not give an accurate representation of how it reacts while riding, and will simply flex the rotor to the left. This does not happen when the wheel is rotating. Besides this, it will almost never occur that the brake is locked by the time the suspension is fully compressed. (In four years of using this design, PYGA have never experienced any shortcomings from this design, nor comebacks. Only compliments)

PYGA Stage - Single Pivot - Starts at 54%, ending on 72%



Specialized Stumpjumper 2016 - Horst Link - starts at 62%, ends at 68%



Sesta - Single Pivot - Starts at 94%, ends at 86%



Below is an explanation from the Linkage programs designer, about his thoughts on the PYGA Stage. He has never seen the bike in flesh or hasn't ridden it, it is just how he has interpreted the data from the graphs.

"As you can see in the excel table and the first graphics system has a very high pedalling efficiency, with percentages of Anti-squat between 100% & 135% with a transmission type 1x11. The system is also compatible with a type 2x10 or 3x10 transmission and in theory will work perfectly without any kind of lock, but still in PYGA have decided to mount an RS Monarch XX locking knob from the handlebar, I think this configuration is intended for use in competition, but in day to day the system can function perfectly well without this accessory. The Pedal-kickback (10.5 deg) not surprisingly is at a high level, while the brake squat (53%) remains at a very low level, since the system works more or less like an FSR...

In the graph of Leverage Ratio see how the system is progressive (2.45~2.0) a rather unusual figure for a picture with 95mm of travel and so sait at first that this table is quite versatile for travel may seem a box 100% competition, but then the system will be very comfortable, so this is ideal for hiking weekend box in this respect is a bit like the Canyon lux, the DeVinci Atlas or Anthem Giant 29"... Pictures with a high pedalling efficiency but with a system that also takes into account the comfort"



Please excuse the grammar - it seems as if some was google translated incorrectly at one point.

I have also uploaded the pics to my profile, if you want to see them.

Link to original text: www.bikehub.co.za/forum/topic/153657-pyga-rear-braking-system/?p=2702809

 NicoBoshoff is a cool dude.

 Lol, whats a "small box" in Afrikaans? I assume its not exactly a compliment :p

 A small box = A Doos = c*nt

So you also get to learn a foreign language on this forum!

 Lol, I see. Well at least I'm not a loose doos then.

 Lol. I'm sure the Afrikaans translation isn't the right one in this case. In fact the linkage website has references to a Hungarian base of operations, and is partly written in Spanish so it could just be a case of an improper translation. Plus, if it was originally in Afrikaans, it would have been posted like that on the BIKEHUB forum to begin with... I think you're safe from being called a doos.

 And Thalmu, 'n Klein doos is nog 'n dosie.

Doos is just "c*nt"

 I know this discussion is 1 year old, but for those interested, this video migth answer some questions here.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBJPLY4xukU

 I don't know, but it sure looks to me like a slightly asymmetrical bb would be a less questionable choice (and then still...) than this "almost symmetrical" rear end. Only goes to show the f*cking joke biking industry is becoming, metastasising "standards" after "standards" like a legit linux distro horror show.

 Please do not assume that high skilled labour, frame jigs and r&d comes cheap just because it is a South African brand.

 No, certain high costs associated with industry do persist; but, all costs considered, this kind of production can be done much cheaper in ZA. I worked there for 5 years, and saw how huge the markup was in a variety of industries. It's that way everywhere, of course, and ZA is no exception. It's just that it CAN be done even cheaper there than, say, in France or Britain or the US.