Two bikes. On the left, we have Santa Cruz’s third-generation Tallboy and, at right, the company’s longer-travel Hightower. Are you about to read a “shoot-out” style review? You are not. For a lot of reasons. First, since both bikes are Santa Cruz models, a “shoot out” would be a bit like asking, “Where do you want to eat breakfast? At McDonald’s or at McDonald's?” Second, though these bikes are clearly neighboring branches on the same Santa Cruz family tree, they are not equivalents and the bedrock foundation of every “bike test shoot out” is that you are comparing equal items…apples to apples rather than apples to watermelons.
Finally, and this is really the main reason, I think shoot outs are just so much bullshit.
Which is “the best bike”? Dunno. It’s a flawed question. Here are some better ones:
What kind of rider might prefer one model over the other?
On which trails?
Under which conditions? And most importantly,
How do the new Tallboy and Hightower fare against their respective competitors out there in the larger marketplace?
We’ll touch on all of the above.
Alright, long-ass disclaimer officially over. Let’s get on with it.The Tallboy Gets Rowdy
It’s been nearly eight years since Santa Cruz debuted their Tallboy and in that time the bike has converted hordes of 29er haters. The Tallboy was one of the first 29ers that didn’t handle like a drunken shopping cart. But that’s faint praise. The Tallboy was fun, it was nimble and it was more capable than its 100 millimeters of travel promised. The Tallboy, however, remained largely unchanged during a period when bikes in its were class were evolving at a furious rate.
This latest reboot of the Tallboy, however, brings everything up to date: new geometry, new suspension tune, improved kinematics, a bit more travel, burlier componentry and greater versatility, thanks to its ability to run both 29 and 27.5+inch wheels. All of these changes are aimed at one thing—making the Tallboy a more capable bike.
Tallboy Details• Intended use: cross-country and trail riding
• Fork travel: 120mm (29er)/130mm (27.5+)
• Rear wheel travel: 110mm
• Wheelsize(s): 29-inch or 27.5+
• Carbon front and rear triangles
• Clearance for up to 27.5 x 3.0'' tires
• 73mm threaded bottom bracket
• Boost (12x148mm) hub spacing
• Sizes: S / M / L / XL / XXL
• Weight: 26.74 lbs (Large, no pedals)
• Frame-Only: $1,899 USD (alum.)/$2,999 USD (carbon)
• Price as Tested: $8,499 USD
• Price Range: $2,599 - $9,999 USD (ENVE wheel upgrade available)
•
www.santacruzbicycles.com The Tallboy is available in both aluminum and carbon frames and can be shod with 12 different build kits. Complete, aluminum bikes range in price from $2,599 to $2,999. Complete carbon bikes start at $3,599 and top out at $9,999.
Frame & SuspensionSanta Cruz added 10 millimeters of rear suspension to the Tallboy (for a total of 110 millimeters) and tweaked their VPP (Virtual Pivot Point) kinematics—giving the Tallboy a higher initial leverage rate and a flatter overall suspension curve. In a nutshell, the company was looking to improve the bike’s feel over small bumps while also making it feel more consistent throughout its range of travel. While you might expect a shorter-travel bike with a flatter suspension curve to blow through its scant travel too easily, Santa Cruz nipped that problem in the bud by also equipping this latest generation Tallboy with a more progressive shock tune.
Santa Cruz also lowered the Tallboy’s stand-over height and designed the bike to accept both 29 and 27.5+ tires and wheels. The rear shock link is equipped with a two-position, flip chip that keeps the geometry nearly constant, regardless of which wheelsize you choose. In Low mode, the bike is meant to be paired with a 120-millimeter fork and 29er hoops. High mode is for 27.5+ tires and a 130-millimeter travel fork.
GeometryThe original Tallboy geometry was way ahead of the curve in 2009, but had grown a bit dated by 2016. Santa Cruz brings things up to date by shearing 2.2 degrees from the head tube angle, increasing the seat tube angle half a degree, adding 40 to 50 millimeters to the top tube and shortening both the seattube and chainstays (30 millimeters and 11 millimeters, respectively). The overall goal here? Make the bike more stable while improving its maneuverability.
Specifications
Specifications
|
Release Date
|
2016 |
|
Price
|
$8599 |
|
Travel |
120 front, 110 rear |
|
Rear Shock |
Fox Float Performance Elite |
|
Fork |
Fox 34 Float 29 Performance Elite |
|
Headset |
Cane Creek 40, Integrated |
|
Cassette |
SRAM XG1295; 10-50t |
|
Crankarms |
SRAM X1 Carbon |
|
Bottom Bracket |
73mm, threaded |
|
Rear Derailleur |
SRAM X01 Eagle |
|
Chain |
SRAM X01 Eagle Powerlock |
|
Front Derailleur |
Available with other build kits |
|
Shifter Pods |
SRAM X01 Eagle |
|
Handlebar |
Santa Cruz Carbon Flat Bar; 31.8mm clamp, 750mm (S-M), 780mm (L-XXL) |
|
Stem |
Raceface Turbine Basic |
|
Grips |
Santa Cruz Palmdale Lock-on |
|
Brakes |
SRAM Level TLM |
|
Wheelset |
Enve M60 |
|
Hubs |
Industry Nine |
|
Tires |
Maxxis Minion DHF Exo 3c; 29x2.3/Ardent Race Exo; 29x2.35 |
|
Seat |
WTB Silverado Team |
|
Seatpost |
Rock Shox Reverb Stealth; 31.6x 125mm (S), 150mm(M-XL), 170mm (XXL) |
|
| |
Set-UpNothing terribly sexy to report here. I tend to run XC and trail bikes at 25 percent sag and that's what I aimed for when diddling about with both the Fox Float 29 Performance Elite fork and Float Performance Elite shock. I've always opted to run rear-suspension sag at 30 percent on previous versions of the Tallboy, in order to eke out better climbing traction out of the VPP system. That wasn't necessary this time around...
As for tires and wheels, I rode the Tallboy primarily in its 29er trim, but dallied with 27.5+ throughout the season in the name of science and all that jazz.
ClimbingEfficient pedaling has always been the bread and butter of the Virtual Pivot Point design, but on some of the older models, that crisp acceleration came at the sacrifice of small bump compliance. It’s not something you notice on fireroads or relatively buff singletrack climbs, but when I was pedaling up rocky and rooty climbs, it was an obvious bummer. Santa Cruz has been improving on this balance for a few years now and the latest iteration of VPP is, for my tastes at least, a genuine step forward. The Tallboy still pedals efficiently enough to be run wide open, but the grip on techy climbs is significantly improved. I’ve ridden zippier climbers, but not many. The Tallboy is definitely near the top of its class as a climbing machine.
Looking to boost traction even further, I chose to run the Maxxis 27.5x2.8 Rekons. The wider footprint and lower tire pressure definitely make scaling rooty sections stupid easy, though some of the bike’s briskness (abundantly evident in 29er mode) gets lost in the mid-fat shuffle. Not a huge surprise—ditching the carbon Enve M60 wheels and skinnier tires for the plus-size tires and Race Face ARC 40 wheelset added about a half pound of rolling weight to the rig. That’s actually a very modest bump in weight, all things considered, but it’s noticeable all the same.
DescendingThe original Tallboy was a bit of a unicorn—a bike that could hold its own alongside the best cross-country machines when it came to gaining elevation…and which could drop them on descents from the get go. This new Tallboy is a unicorn with bigger balls. Or ovaries. Take your pick of downhill-enhancing gonads. Bottom line, slackening the head angle and lengthening the bike’s front center give the bike a more stable and planted feel on technical descents. Not a huge surprise, really. Ditching the spindly Fox 32 fork for a burlier, 120-millimeter travel Fox 34 also helps here. Likewise, lopping a big section of seattube mast and lowering the standover allows you to finesse the bike more easily.
There's no such thing as a free lunch, however, and while Santa Cruz trimmed the chainstays to a tidy 432 millimeters (17 inches), the wheelbase has grown alongside the growing front-center and slackened head angle. No way around it. The Tallboy’s wheelbase is on par with that of other trail bikes, but it is two inches longer than that of the original-recipe Tallboy. Think of it this way: the Tallboy is less of an XC switchblade now and more of a trail bike tactical knife—still deft and sharp, but a little less of a precision instrument. If you enjoy downhills, it’s a trade-off you’ll happily accept.
Cross-country bikes are steadily growing more capable—blurring that point where a race bike ends and a trail bike begins. The Kona Hei Hei DL is one such example. This Tallboy is another strong example. The Tallboy is spot on with its geometry and the suspension has a more refined feel—supple, yes, but with a truly usable 110 millimeters of travel. It doesn’t feel like it’s packing more travel than it does, but it’s an honest 110 millimeters—you use all of it, whereas some bikes ramp up so quickly that the latter third of their travel only comes into play during teeth-rattling impacts.
The Tallboy is also more versatile than many of its competitors. In most conditions, I prefer the feel of the 29er tires and wheels, but the 2.8-inch tires actually complement the shorter travel bike well. Go ahead, time it all wrong and land a jump in the middle of a particularly nasty section of trail; the Rekons let you get away with crap line choices—it's all stoney smiles and butterflies instead of clenched teeth and sphincter. Maybe you don't actually want that margin of error (and, of course, you can just go the 29er route instead), but there are times when it does come in handy. I’ve also spent the last three weeks riding in shitty, crusty snow and ice and there’s no denying it—I actually enjoyed doing so on the 2.8 Rekons. Not so much on the 29er set up. Most people are going to run the Tallboy one way—they probably won’t be swapping back and forth with bike-tester abandon—but it’s cool that you have the option to switch things up with this bike.
Component Check• X01 Build Kit: Our early-release Tallboy sports an 11-speed SRAM X01 group. Santa Cruz made a running change to Eagle X01 later in the year and Eagle is what you'll find on current versions of this particular build kit. I have no complaints with X01 and its 10 to 42-tooth cassette, but, Eagle makes long climbs that much easier. It's a good upgrade.
• Enve M60 Wheelset: The first run of media-sample bikes tend to be on the glitzier end of the spectrum, which is the case with our test bike. Going with the Enve wheel upgrade (as a replacement for the stock Race Face ARC 24 wheels) adds two grand to the price tag. Enve wheels add stiffness to the equation, but the Tallboy's carbon chassis is plenty stiff as it stands. So is the upgrade worth it? For my money, no. These are nice wheels, but they are not a full extra two-large nice.
• 29 or 27.5+: Santa Cruz sent the bike with both 29er and 27.5+ bits. For general riding, I preferred the feel of the 29-inch wheels and 2.3-inch Maxxis tires. The cornering bite on the Minion DHF is better than that of the Rekon 2.8. That said, the 2.8-inch tire adds an extra bit of stability and forgiveness to the ride. Which is better? It's a matter of rider preference. While Santa Cruz offers build kits in both 29 and 27.5+, they do not offer separate fork and wheelset kits for people who want to also pick up the parts necessary to convert the Tallboy from 29er to plus-size bike (or vice versa). If you want to switch and swap (something that takes just minutes to accomplish) you’ll need to pick up an extra wheelset. Thankfully, you don’t need two forks—the 130mm travel 27+ fork will work with a 29er wheelset. You can also swap out the fork's air shaft.
The 29er Bronson
When Santa Cruz rolled out the Hightower in early 2016, they touted the bike as a 29er Bronson—a big-wheeled, all-mountain bike. Fair enough, though I think it’s easier to just call it what it is—the reboot of the Tallboy LT. Over the course of its four-year run, the Tallboy LT earned plenty of fans—it was a two-fisted brawler of a bike that harnessed all that was good about larger diameter wheels. By 2016, however, the LT’s geometry had become a bit dated--the head angle a bit steep, the top tube in need of a hair bit more length, the chainstays, well those could've always used a bit of a trimming. The Tallboy LT's rebirth as the Hightower brings the model fully up to date in terms of geometry. And like its shorter-travel sibling, the Hightower also brings plus-size tire compatibility to the table. 29er or 27.5+? The Hightower gets all AC/DC on that question.
Hightower Details• Rear travel: 135mm
• Fork travel: 140mm (29er)/150mm (27.5+)
• Carbon front and rear triangles
• Wheelsize(s): 29" or 27.5+ wheels
• Clearance for up to 27.5 x 3.0'' tires
• 67° head angle
• 433mm chainstays
• 12 x 148mm rear spacing
• Threaded bottom bracket
• Sizes M, L, XL
• Weight as shown: 27.3 pounds (Large, no pedals)
• Colors: Sriracha red, matte carbon & mint
• Price as tested: $6,599 USD; frame only: $2,999 USD
• Price range: $3,599 - $9,999 USD (ENVE wheel upgrade available)
•
www.santacruzbicycles.com The Hightower is currently available in carbon only, and comes dressed in seven different possible build kits. As with the Tallboy and several other models, Santa Cruz offers their complete Hightower build-ups with two different grades of carbon frame; the premier "CC" frame and the less-expensive "C". Carbon "C" frames weigh 230 grams (a half pound) more than "CC" frames, but are said to boast the same strength and stiffness as their pricier siblings. Consequently, while our pimpalicious test bike isn't so easy on the wallet, you
can get a carbon Hightower built up with a Fox Rhythm fork and SRAM NX group for $3,599.
Frame & SuspensionLike its predecessor, the Hightower sports 135-millimeters of rear suspension. The Hightower, however, benefits from the third-generation VPP system that first debuted on the Nomad and has since also popped up on the Bronson, 5010, Tallboy, etc. What’s more, there are a ton of little nip and tucks that aren’t immediately obvious from afar; those include an internal headset, Boost 148 rear spacing and internal cable tunnels in the front triangle. The Tallboy received all these same tweaks. But while the latest Tallboy will accept a front derailleur, the Hightower will not. It’s a single-ring party up in here. Most people won’t lament the lack of a front mech, but if you feel compelled to have a front shifter, you should know the Hightower isn’t having any of it. Our first-run Hightower sports a 10-42, 11-speed X01 build kit. Current X01 and XX1 build kits, however, are both 12-speed SRAM Eagle affairs, which means they benefit from that monster 50-tooth cog...yet another reason not to sweat the Hightower's front derailleur incompatibility.
As with the Tallboy, stand over height has been dropped a good bit with the Hightower--a full 38 millimeters (an inch and a half) from that of the Tallboy LT. That's a big difference. The Hightower sports the same two-position, flip chip as the Tallboy. In 29er mode, the bike is equipped with a 140-millimeter travel fork. Santa Cruz specs a 150-millimeter travel fork with its 27.5+ build kits.
GeometryJust as Santa Cruz set out to make the Tallboy a more capable descender without compromising its nimbleness, the company had the same goals in sight with the Hightower, though they made even more radical changes with this bike. Reach is increased by 36 millimeters (1.4 inches), the head angle is slackened by 2.5 degrees and the seat angle steepened 1.7 degrees. The company also lopped 15 millimeters (.6 inches) off the chainstays.
Specifications
Specifications
|
Release Date
|
February 2016 |
|
Price
|
$6599 |
|
Travel |
135 |
|
Rear Shock |
Rock Shox Monarch RT3 Debonair |
|
Fork |
Rock Shox Pike 29 RCT3 140 |
|
Headset |
Cane Creek 40, Integrated |
|
Cassette |
SRAM XG1295; 10-50t |
|
Crankarms |
SRAM X1 Carbon |
|
Bottom Bracket |
73-mm, threaded |
|
Rear Derailleur |
SRAM X01 Eagle |
|
Chain |
SRAM X01 Eagle Powerlock |
|
Front Derailleur |
Not compatible |
|
Shifter Pods |
SRAM X01 Eagle |
|
Handlebar |
Santa Cruz Carbon Flat Bar, 31.8mm clamp, 780mm |
|
Stem |
Raceface Turbine Basic |
|
Grips |
Santa Cruz Palmdale Lock-on |
|
Brakes |
SRAM Guide RSC |
|
Wheelset |
Race Face ARC 27 |
|
Hubs |
DT Swiss 350 |
|
Spokes |
DT Swiss Competition Double-Butted |
|
Rim |
Race Face ARC 27 |
|
Tires |
Maxxis Minion DHR2 TR; 29x2.3 |
|
Seat |
WTB Silverado Team |
|
Seatpost |
Rock Shox Reverb Stealth; 150mm travel (M-L), 170mm (XL) |
|
| |
Set-UpSanta Cruz recommends 15 to 18 millimeters of sag on the stock RockShox Monarch RT3. I generally stuck with 15 millimeters (about 30 percent sag) on the rear shock and 30 percent on the Pike. I gave the 27.5+ wheels a go a few times, but invariably found myself returning to the 29er set up.
ClimbingYou expect the Tallboy to scale mountains with ease—that’s sorta its raison d’etre, but the Hightower gains elevation almost as easily on all but the steepest of climbs. The third-generation VPP kinematics and new shock tune give the Hightower good traction on rocky climbs, yet the bike still pedals very efficiently.
I rode a Tallboy LT for three seasons and generally climbed with the rear shock wide open. With the Hightower, I wound up switching the RockShox Monarch RT3 rear shock into its firmer suspension setting on longer climbs, but it’s a trade-off I’d happily make for the Hightower’s better overall traction. With the Tallboy LT, I often found myself riding the nose of the saddle on steep climbs. The Hightower’s steeper seattube angle puts you in a better position on climbs, requiring a lot less body English from you in order to attain the ideal weight distribution on the bike.
The Hightower’s slack head angle, long reach and fairly generous wheelbase
can prove a bit of a handful on tight uphill corners. If the Hightower has a weakness on the climbing front, it’s here, when the front end feels light and the front wheel wanders a bit.
DescendingAt the risk of flogging the hell out of a dead horse, the Hightower, like the Tallboy, is a more neutral and confident descender than the bike it replaces in the Santa Cruz lineup. Sixty-seven degrees is slack for a 29er, no matter how you slice it. That relaxed head angle, the relatively low bottom bracket and a generous wheelbase give the bike a very, very stable feel on descents.
Mike Kazimer wrote our
first ride preview of the Hightower back in February and remarked that the bike gets better and better the harder you push it on descents. That’s true. The Hightower is a hell of a lot of bike—more bike than you might guess, given its 135 millimeters of rear suspension. Pushing the bike hard, however, is the best way to realize that fact. Its forte is bombing down loose and shitty sections of trail. The more you let it out hang out on the Hightower, the more it rewards you.
The Hightower is not, however, the most lively of bikes in its class. I’ve spent a fair bit of time this past season, for instance, on a Medium Pivot Switchblade, Large Specialized Stumpjumper 29er and Large Evil Following—all of which sport similar geometry, but wheelbases that are about three-quarters of an inch shorter. Santa Cruz trimmed the chainstays down to 435 millimeters (17.1 inches), so the Hightower's rear center is actually quite tidy. The difference here is that the Hightower is on the long and slack end of the spectrum. That's a big plus on wide-open, high-speed sections of trail, where the Hightower is a more steady and confident-feeling bike than the majority of bikes in its class. Once the trail starts getting really tight and the corners start coming fast and tricky, I prefer the other aforementioned models, which have a more playful feel to them and are easier to maneuver and coax through tight spots. I’m not saying the Hightower is a stubborn mule of a descender. Far from it. With its generous front-center, the Hightower, however, places more of its design eggs in the stable-and-steady basket (so to speak) than in the lively-and-playful basket. Which is better? The answer just depends on who is riding the bike.
I also experimented with plus-size tires while riding the Hightower (Maxxis Rekon 2.8s, again). While I can see the attraction for people who might be riding very primitive trails, I definitely preferred the 29er set up on the Hightower. The squishier, grippier tires aren't for everyone, sure, but they did complement the shorter-travel Tallboy in some conditions. On the longer-travel Hightower, the bigger tires just felt…unnecessary to me. Plus-size tires add stability and poise to a bike, but the Hightower already possesses those traits in spades. Adding plus tires to the Hightower simply gave it a somewhat
muted feel, whereas the 29er set up lent it a more precise and speedier vibe. Ultimately, however, it’s cool that Santa Cruz affords you the option to painlessly run either set up. More options are always a good thing.
Speaking of options, there are people out there who've pursued another option with the Hightower since it debuted: they've been "long shocking" it. By installing a 200x57 shock, they've wrangled 150-millimeters of rear travel out of the machine and created a Hightower of a different flavor. Clearly, it can be done--there are a couple guys in our neck of the woods, for instance, who are riding Hightowers that way. What's Santa Cruz's take on modding the Hightower this way? I asked Santa Cruz engineer, Nick Anderson.
"We know there are people out there running the Hightower in some non-spec configurations and we highly advise against doing so," says Anderson.
"More than simply negating your warranty (which it does), running the bike with anything other than 135mm of rear travel is potentially dangerous. In the scenario you describe, there’s the risk of the tire hitting the seat tube, and/or the shock over-centering the linkage. If the shock has a reservoir it could hit the top tube. Any one of these scenarios could cause a crash. Simply put," says Anderson, "when you take a bike like this outside of its design parameters in this way, you're inviting trouble."
Component Check• RockShox Pike RCT3: A lot of ink has been spilled in praise of this fork, but it's much deserved. Light, burly, easy to tune....it's a workhorse of a fork and a particularly good match for this bike.
• Race Face/DT Swiss Wheelset: Our Hightower is spec'd with Race Face ARC 27 rims that are mated to DT Swiss Competition spokes and 350 hubs. It's proven a reasonably lightweight, yet completely trouble free, wheelset. No complaints at all.
• X01: While I never actually found myself needing a lower gear than what was provided on our 11-speed X01 build, anyone whose rides consistently involve racking up several thousand meters/feet of elevation will probably be happy with Santa Cruz's decision to spec Eagle versions of X01 and XX1 on their upper end builds. Extra range and a more giving low end are hard to argue with.
Pinkbike's Take: | Whereas the original Tallboy was an XC bike that could handle a fair bit of trail riding, the Tallboy 3 is something closer to a trail bike that can moonlight as an XC rig. Giving the Tallboy the "long, low and slack" treatment has created a bike that more than holds its own with the best in its class, including the Ibis Ripley LS, Pivot Mach 429 and Yeti SB4.5.
The Hightower is a consistently strong all-rounder; a far steadier and more confident descender than its predecessor and a bike that plays solidly in the same league as the better long-travel 29ers out there. While I initially raised my eyebrows at Santa Cruz referring to the Hightower as a "29er Bronson", it's actually an apt characterization--the Hightower is a capable all-mountain bike and a good choice for people looking to race enduro--no weight or pedaling penalty combined with neutral and confident downhill manners. - Vernon Felton |
About the ReviewerStats: Age: 44 • Height: 5'11” • Inseam: 32" • Weight: 175lb • Industry affiliations / sponsors: None In 1988 Vernon started riding mountain bikes—mainly to avoid the people throwing cans of Budweiser at him during his road rides. At some point, roughly when Ronald Reagan was president and Hüsker Dü was still a band, he began loving mountain bikes on their own terms. Vernon Felton spends most of his time riding bikes, thinking about bikes, thinking about riding bikes and then riding some more around Bellingham, Washington. If it has a greasy chain and two wheels on it, he’s cool with it. Except for recumbents. Well, okay, maybe those too. Nah, forget it. No recumbents.
#usetheforce
Any standard glasses lens fits and they go well beyond what Oakley offer if you get custom sun glasses from them.
I have a set and keratoconus.
Here is a selfie with a goat with them on www.pinkbike.com/photo/14302514
Richard01 built a bridge with his bare hands, but do they call him the Richard01 the Bridge Builder? No.
Richard01 built a church with his own two hands, but do they call him Richard01 the Church Builder? No.
You f*ck one goat...
j/k dude....nice pic.
Also real nice to see people helping each other especially on a top comment thread
The mojo is more playful, no doubt about it. A simple switch back or bunny hop will immediately show the difference. Its not bad on the HT, but its just way easier on the Mojo.
The HT climbs faster/better though (to my own surprise and the difference is huge, i clear climbs 50% faster on the HT, and i did lock the mojo when needed.. its not even fair how much faster the HT is)
The HT rides quite differently downhill too, probably partly due to being a 29er - as long as i can go fast is just roll through like a train (faster than the Mojo as well). If I can't or I'm not confident enough the Mojo is just better at it (probably due to being a 27.5er and longer travel, with a slightly different geo), sometimes I'd just put a feet down on the HT when it's too technical while I could do it on the Mojo (keep in mind I'm pretty average as far as skills go).
Neither are bad bikes though I like the HT better myself, my co-rider agreed on all my points yet liked the Mojo better.
Basically I guess I am closer to Vernon's assessment.
@bankz: A better test of the HT vs Mojo 3 would be in the same mode (apples to apples) which would mean both in 27+. I get it if that's not your thing, but there will be pretty significant differences just from the wheel size. Makes perfect sense the Mojo would feel more nimble vs a 29er HT, but that the HT may climb faster. Still there are differences beyond the wheels size. My wife preferred the Mojo so she adopted it and I preferred the HT. While the travel is nearly the same I felt I could out-ride the Mojo pretty quickly. Mine blew through the travel too quickly on drops and felt skittish at high speed. Oh and the Mojo 3 (130/140) is actually less travel than the HT (135/140 in 29er mode - 135/150 in 27+ mode). Regardless, we have a lot of great choices that allow us all to find the ride we love best! Ride on man
Question being what year/size is your Honzo, and what size did you go with on the HT? I've only parking lot ridden the Tallboy and HT... the large HT seemed like a enormous bike, and felt like anything aside from murdering straight line descents would be a chore. Was able to ride the Tallboy in medium, yet that bike felt too cramped, like I just wanted to keep hanging my ass off the back of the seat. The handlebar felt like it was on my knees too. My gut tells me that, being different bikes, the HT in a size medium may just be the sweet spot. I'm riding in the PNW too. Any feedback on how you arrived on your size?
The savings account has already been started for a Hightower. And while it grows I hope they release some new colors this summer!
It really annoys me that the bike companies are still nickle and diming you at that price.
Really irritating - I agree these forks are great for aftermarket but they are being used to make more ££££ by bike companies
It's true, most riders can't tell the difference. But a performance series fork and shock on a $6500-8500 build just feels wrong.
54T start ratchet would be nice at this price too.
Total price ended up being 7600USD also. When custom builds are cheaper than the stock build, there's a pricing problem IMO. Its like 900USD+ for.. putting it together?
(I run a dps evol 2016, 27.5+ factory 34 front, 29'er asymetric custom carbon wheels w/ dt240 boost centerlock straightpull hubs [they cost an arm], swork phenom, RF 35 bars, easton havoc 35 stem, next sl cranks, absolutely black ring, eagle xx1 derailleur/shifter, x01 chain, fox 3pos remote, reverb 150mm dropper, guide ultimate brakes)
(also yes this is the most expensive thing ive ever bought - granted i did not buy a house yet though ;-)
For the record this setup feels way better than my demo bike that had easton wheels (they aint bad but just not as good) and roxshock pike/monarch. Also weights 25lbs on 2.25" wild grip adv r2 tires w/ xc12 pedals and sealant, M frame - which is a good bit below the 8500USD build without any fancy weightweenie stuff.
That said, the argument is about the pricing, and kashima (ie "factory") stuff costs more and its what I have.
Really????? Maybe there are still some cave men out there in the wild who don't have the cash for Eagle (or don't want to spend) and rather run 2x11 (or 2x10 god forbid) XT/SLX for the fraction of the price to have wide or even wider range which can be essential on a bike like the Tallboy. It seems the guys at Santa Cruz understand it...
www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-US/tallboy
I would also say there are plenty of people people that read reviews and just want to buy the best bike there is regardless of cost, regardless of if they would be able to use it anywhere near its full potential. There is nothing wrong with this, but if people read into way of buying companies with always product the new magic bean bike/components. Engeneering a solution to a problem that was a problem from a solution...
(also, theres always *some* bikes that are just not up to snuff regardless - but these usually don't get tested or just get clearly shot down)
That being said, your reviews were always the easiest to read (or listen) into - which is probably why so many people like them, me included.
I do like group tests, and think they're preferable. It's a pain in the dick to actually get multiple press fleet bikes that are all within the same area code for pricing and intent, but the price point ones are, to me, the best ones, as they're most reflective of the way people actually buy bikes (and importantly keep component bling on a press kitted bikes from outperforming strictly due to overall weight and latest/greatest componentry, not performance of the frame).
I'd like to see if PB can do group tests, and then conclude with 'best bike for _____ use' as the output, and include some categories like 'value' and 'unlimited budget'... I think that's actually more usefully reflective of the fact that bikes are all pretty good, but they're designed to excel at different things. Even if some of it is a touch more obvious, I think this is they type of journalism that can actually showcase what big sponsoring entities can do and what the R&D effort results in, and also be able to present this alongside the smaller niche offerings and actually have all parties involved be happier with the result (readers, advertisers, buyers, etc.).
I would like a bullet-point type thing, but it can be really in depth (as opposed to the TL;DR types of bullet point summaries), and put stuff like 'This bike is deficient in this area - but it can be fixed with installation of parts such as _____' - and link that to the reviews of those parts. For example, the Marin Hawk Hill - great bike especially for the money, but dropping some links, for stuff like the KS eTen, X-Fusion HiLo, and similar price point dropper posts, would be a fantastic way to get readers much more comfortable with what that bike could really achieve, and get visibility on some of the existing fantastic content already present.
What are your thoughts on the long term future of the super boost plus if you don't mind me asking because that's my only sticking point right now. I think when we start seeing 29er dh bikes it would make sense to maintain the 157 spacing so they will naturally settle on the super boost plus hubs rather than going to boost so I feel like it will take off but that could just be a dream now that the industry seem to have adopted boost.
They are actually inviting 29er Normads.
For all the doom and gloom on the warranty front, I have yet to hear of issues (or anything resembling disappointment) from owners of long-shock Hightowers... To me that's the configuration to run, as the bike wasn't as nimble as other options in the same travel range.
If you tested the base model a) its the model most folk may dream of buying and b) it would give a true test of the bikes frame, suspension and geometry.
I was very pleased to see that affordable Marin fs review. So more of them. Not saying to stop testing top end models, just bring more base models to reviews.
Would like to see Kona Precept review (130 and 150)..
This would be especially interesting if it included timed segments ridden multiple times of both high end and low end models.
That bike is still my sizing reference (475mm reach, 800mm bars, stack in the 630mm range, and shoot for 25-33mm BB drop), because the fit is phenomenal. That bike also had me fall in love with the 3C MaxxTerra DHR2 as a front tire, and it was great. I knew I'd want it longer and slacker, despite the fact that it would exacerbate the low-speed and tight section lack of maneuverability, because I just wanted that bike to party even harder on the high speed stuff where it already excelled.
The one area I've found lacking is long rock gardens - with the rebound pretty open, the bike still feels like it gets hung up on longer bigger rocks. Any further open and it gets bounced around too much. I'd love to have just 10mm more rear travel, I thinkk it would take this bike to the next level without intruding too much on the Hightower.
I fiddled a bunch with the rear shock. Adding the largest volume spacer possible and i was still bottoming the bike out on the biggest hits. (I ride this with guys who ride Enduros) I recently swapped the shock for a Cane Creek DBinline and the bike is phenomenal now. So much more tuneable and planted. Will still need some fussing with but its the most capable trail bike ive ever ridden.
Also i downvoted you by accident instead of upvote and i cant reverse it for some reason. Sorry : (
Other than that I like my high tower with better small bump compliance (ie fox evol or warranty-breaking-monarch-plus) and a lock out for climbs (even thus it works fine wide open or in "trail" mode full lockout is much better on certain sections).
As far as cons go:
- seat tube could be a tad steepier to help with climbs - you have to stand on the HT earlier than you would on some other bikes (Jeffsy, switchblade, you name it) though of course the HT is indeed more enduro-ish.
- the gunk in the lower VPP linkage is indeed annoying and sometimes a little scary though i never ran into issues. I wish they made a custom fender for that (its quite hard to make your own, a regular fender will dig into the seat tube when you bottom out!).
- some of the cable routing holes are a tad small/tight for internal routing (though it might be because I got one of the first runs?)
Anyhow, love the bike, and while many do run it 200/160mm I like the stock 135/140mm or 135/150mm better myself. perfect almost-enduro-29er bike. It does love to truck through harsh stuff yet climbs nicely as long as its not too steep.
Press fit BB's are notorious for creaking once installed. Threaded BB's don't.
If you damage your BB shell internal surface, now you need to have the shell interior refaced. If it was a carbon shell, you might be in trouble.
If you can recommend specific parts from a hardware store that will yield a home press with actual alignment features I'd love to see it.
1) it looks ghetto on my 7600USD build !! ;-)
2) honestly I find it hard to keep it properly in place over time, so I ended up removing it
I looked up my ebay history and i paid $22.50 + $25 for the PF BB tools good while ago (+10USD for the rubber mallet at the local store), and $34 for the BSA tools. Got em from "biketools" ebay username.
I would recommend these over a custom made unless you really want to cheap out, its just easier and not too expensive.
At the end of the day im happy with either kind of BB myself.
I find the added expense and difficulty aren't worth the advantages, but to each their own. You certainly make it sound like *less* of a PITA than I first thought.
I replaced it with a 85USD one (RWC) which is perfect.
That's probably a non-issue when you get a prebuilt bike though (you don't pay per part, but for a whole bike), but when custom building that's definitely something to factor in
Agree with numb riders vs. numb bikes. The only thing you can get is a wildly too long bike, when you are 5'7" like me. It's just not fun anymore at some point.
That's what I meant - too many variables to put it on suspension system. With the biggest variable being the rider. You can or you can't launch from one rock/root over another.
@mecabeat - if you would ride with my friend on his Stumpy 29Evo with 456 chainstay and you will never ever talk about nuances of suspension systems and flying. And he isn't even a semi-pro. I agree with you if someone is just ramming into a rock expecting the bike to fly.
Other bikes, like the NS Bikes Snabb, are the opposite - stiffer suspension, designed to fling you off the trail and avoid getting too low on take-off.
So @ejj sounds believable - soft suspension design, long travel, and fatter tires (which themselves act like damped springs) adds up to a lot of 'suspension' between you and the trail.
The whole plus-size tire thing, however, is still very much in its awkward toddler stage. We have a long ways to go before these tire designs and casings mature. In general, I prefer 29 to 27+, even on the Tallboy, but there were times (recent shitty, snowy weather, for instance) when the 2.8s were legitimately an, er, plus for the Tallboy.
You're coming across as though you think it's ridiculous to even have this discussion. As if no one has the ability to account for all the variables that go into affecting the way a bike feels. Maybe the majority of mtn bikers worldwide don't, but where I live there are many that do have the experience and critical thinking to discern the individual properties that affect the handling characteristics of a bike. We're all getting out and having fun at the same time as being able to discuss our preferences and experiences. We have the resources and ability to test multiple setups and experiment with configurations.
Of course, I'm not going to base any decision I make solely on what anyone says on Pinkbike, but it's still interesting to hear peoples opinions that are outside my local scene. Why do you want to shut that down? Seems like you're actually oversimplifying people.
Plus on full suspension??? Ehhh - i have to say that I'm not convinced that they offer much. I am fortunate to have a 29er that is 27.5+ compatible and I've literally ridden the plus wheelset 1x....so far, i cant see the benefit of the fatties on fullies.
and tell the fashion police that your glasses complete your enduro look...dem haterz, get off my lawn!
Buddy of mine rides a 5010 - loves that thing. But he's considerably lighter than me. If I were going SC, I'd probably prefer the Tallboy over the 5010 - pretty much the same use profile. Same thing Bronson vs. Hightower.
Thank you guys! Your feedback is helpful. I think I will stick with the Hightower as my choice.
I agree at 6'3" a 29er will most likely feel better and be plenty playful. The tallboy will be MORE playful than the Hightower, at the expense of stability, high speed bump gobbling, etc. The added wheelbase and travel result in a much more 'planted' feeling bike. Depending on how/where you ride, one will stand out over the other as a better match for you. I highly recommend you try to ride both before purchasing.
I'm 5'10" 150lbs and ride a 5010. It's a very playful bike, and easier for a smaller rider like myself to flick around. It gives up some speed and roll-over compared to the tallboy, but it's still a super capable bike on a wide variety of terrain. If I were doing more racing, I would get the tallboy. The 5010 is just so darn fun, and a great match for the riding that I do.
Based on your description, I think the biggest considerations are that you want a more playful bike, and what kind of terrain you ride and sounds like the Hightower would be a great choice!
"Cross-country bikes are steadily growing more capable—blurring that point where a race bike ends and a trail bike begins. The Kona Hei Hei DL is one such example. This Tallboy is another strong example."
Sooooo.... Shootout? Lol
BTW the older finish paint was much better than the new ones with sharp touching lines...
Custom fender to protect lower pivots will be good option as well as somebody above mention that.
The 29er setup feels faster yet less playful, more precise in line choice, but have much less traction on the climbs and isn't as forgiving on off camber turns. I believe a carbon 27.5 + and the rekon 2.8 tires would just about destroy 90% of anything you could dish up.
The only changes Santa cruz should make: change the switch link to a cam based option so I don't have to fiddle with the shock bolt when changing wheels, and lengthen the large sized frame by at least 10mm to differentiate the large from XL sizes, and shorten the wheelbase a bit.
You said you rode the Tallboy mostly in its 29er guise. That means you were on 29er hoops with, I'm assuming, boost spacing. As someone who's still riding a 29er with 135mm hubs, I'm curious how the boosted 29 wheels contribute to the experience of riding the Tallboy.
Shimano is literally giving their 2 by drivetrains away and with the newest Shimano front derailleur plus an aftermarket clamp that allows you to keep the clamp above the fluting of the carbon downtube but to lower the front derailleur to correct height over an xtr 34/24 2 by a brand new drive train is a bit over $500.
The most conspicuous hightower improvement is getting the lower vpplinksge out of harm's way. That's where my frame will eventually self destruct on a rock hit.
All these designs will give iffy small bump compliance that's why peeps use the Cane Creek double barrel but if u were really going to do it , push s propriatary 1160 or whatever is its name is the way to go. I had my fox rear shock revalved by push and it's platform was a vast improvement.
I post this to encourage serious shredders to consider what they can tweak from their existing ride because the new new good stuff is 8k plus and still isn't as good as my my ride with king ISO with
derb rims.
Thanks in advance!
but not Santa Cruz. Although they have great advertising. Every SC is built in house... meaning you get a good build and handbuilt solid wheels, at least... i have owned both a SC and a Commencal... the SC do feel like better bikes... and do last longer. I bet YT does not build the bikes either. Overall I feel SC are more expensive, but you get what you pay for.
Others like Specialized etc... are definitely over inflated by Marketing, quality is au pair with Commencal / YT
My bro got a Jeffsy top of the line for 4.5k euro (its very close to 4500USD) and has a setup that is pretty much identical to my 7600USD HT spec-wise (would be 8500USD if stock build).
both have DT240 hubs and high end carbon rims.
both have next sl cranks
both have X01 drivetrains (well, my custom build has XX1 but thats beyond the point)
both have guide ultimate brakes
both have good stem and a carbon bar
one has fox factory 34 fork and fox dps evol factory shock, the other (SC HT) has the *cheaper* monarch and pike...
Its really, really close to double the price when you get the SC.
At lower price points, the gap isn't as big.
If the Jeffsy had been out, and while I do prefer the HT geo - I would have gotten the Jeffsy. Its just much better value.
So yea, the price difference is huge. Also at time of purchase the exchange rate was similar to what it is now, ie 1.06 (it means 1EUR is 1.06USD). That makes the bike ~4750USD.
Which one is the apple and which one is the watermelon,
because we all know what an apple a day is for,
but for the summer days: watermelons are the best.
A cassette with a 10-50 spread does not have a 500% range, does it? Isn't it 400%? 10-20 would be 100% range, 10-60 would be 500%. Right? Or is my maths off?
100% of 10 is 10.
90% of 10 is 9.
5%of 10 is 5.
200% of 10 is 20.
500% of 10 is 50.
Didn't you pay attention in maths class?
"5%of 10 is 5"
Oh, the irony!
(10-10) / 10 = 0% range
(20-10) / 10 = 100% range
(50-10) / 10 = 400% range
To keep it simple here though, I think the easiest answer is "range" is not the right word to describe the rear cassette.
You may have oversimplified it. As I understand it, most "range" talk is mostly about gearing ratios (cassette turns per chainring turns in this case) not sprocket tooth counts. To make it more complicated, take say a 32t chain ring into account...
32/50 = 0.64
32/10 = 3.2
3.2/0.64 = 5 which is a 500% difference in gear ratios. (or just divide 50/10)
If you focus on the true "range" it doesn't tell you enough of the story. If you go from a 10 to 11 cog, your ratio has jumped by 0.3, but if you go from 42-50 it only jumps by 0.12. A ratio can tell you more than just difference in teeth.
lmgtfy.com/?q=mathematics+etymology
In short, for a do-everything bike, the Hightower is a better choice than the Slash, but if you're looking for bike designed specifically for aggressive riding on rowdy terrain, the Slash is a worthy option.
Great review of both bikes by the way!
Not if you're comparing apples with apples, Vernon...
I suspect that the mid-range is where the value is really at, while the lower end tries to hit some key components into usability within the budget so that key ride aspects are nailed... but how this actually pans out on real trails is something I think a lot of insight (as opposed to just internet supposition) could be generated with.