THE TROLL SYMBIOSIS:ARE TROLLS ERODING OUR CULTURE?
The first time I wrote an article for the Internet I was called a slut and a whore in the comments section. The topic of the article? Mountain Bike culture. It didn’t bother me, as baseless bullying directed at me on the Internet does not bother me to this day. (To clarify, in grade school I had braces, wore gumboots to school, and had a pet duck that lived in my bathtub. I was intrinsically raised to not give a f*ck about what other people think.) But that’s me, it is not everyone – and it shouldn’t have to be everyone.
It was not the last time that negative comments designed to elicit humiliation and shame would be attached to my articles, but I remain a fan of a format that allows readers to comment. It is a place where people can share ideas and information, post entertaining, witty banter, and connect in a supportive and positive way within our international community. One of the unfortunate side effects, however, in having a worldwide audience in today’s culture, is that it also gives a platform for those suffering from feelings of entitlement and inferiority to vent their hateful rhetoric.
To define trolling is a challenge. While cyber-bullying has become a plague, there is a vast grey area somewhere between the right to express opposing opinions and exercise free speech, and the unrelenting abuse that has on occasion driven people to suicide. Somewhere amidst this are the random and callous personal attacks, the derailing of conversations, contradicting purely for conflict, and offensive and nonsensical provocations all meant expressly to insult and provoke a host of negative feelings and reactions in others. These are trolls that live below the threshold and their comments are never helpful, witty, or intelligent. They are abhorrently cavalier in the delivery of their insults, displaying a cowardice made possible through the protection of the Internet and the seclusion of one’s own home.
In Norse mythology trolls are described as cave dwellers who exist in isolation and are unhelpful to humans. This seems rather appropriate when applied to the abusive and antisocial behaviour these commenters display online. But a 2014 study published in the journal of Personality and Individual Difference linked the personality traits of internet trolls to the Dark Triad of Machiavellianism (a manipulative attitude), narcissism (excessive self-love), and psychopathy (lack of empathy). Researchers concluded that cyber-trolling is an Internet manifestation of everyday sadism – a behaviour displayed in an average person who not only lacks empathy but also enjoys inflicting harm on others. It has also been posited that the anonymity of the internet, or at least the lack of personal presence and ability to read the emotions of another human being, brings this behaviour out in people. In other words, these internet trolls do not always exhibit these dangerous characteristics in other areas of their lives. Given this information and connection to a much darker psychology, the fairy-tale term for the gruff but lovable grump living under a bridge feels like a euphemism that falls a little short.
What is curious is that we have unwittingly created a symbiotic relationship with these commenters. As a community we often feed the trolls, getting sucked into a debate with someone whose sole purpose is to upset us. We scroll through articles and click below threshold comments, often before anything else, allowing those small and mean-spirited voices to become the content rather than the article itself. The drama can be entertaining and over time, we have accepted this as commonplace in our online community. But should we? We have gone so far as to adopt a ‘harden up’ attitude towards those attacked and through our apathy, we have lost our empathy, the effect of which is the slow erosion of quality content - writing, photographs, video, etc. - in our mountain bike culture.
As a writer I nurture relationships with the athletes and personalities I interview. An essential part of this process is the building of trust and often friendship that allows for a candid and valuable story to be shared. There seems to be an unspoken consensus in our community, however, that if you are willing to make yourself vulnerable for the benefit and entertainment of others, then you either deserve or at least should expect to be attacked. With comments like ‘spoiled brat, boycott his sponsors’, ‘get her ugly face off my newsfeed’, ‘please cut that hair you look gay’, ‘cry baby lil’ bitch’, and ‘[he] looks like a big fat pig’ directed at athletes I have worked with, I am increasingly at a loss for how to entice these people to want to share their stories - and naturally it’s a bigger effort for them to want to dig deep for the type of content that has true benefit to the reader. Instead, what we are progressively seeing are interview responses that are much more calculated and guarded – and who can blame them?
Maintaining these professional relationships is my job. Defending vapid free speech in the form of ‘too bad he is a cocky SOB that is too stuck up for his own good’ (note that grammar in these comments has been preserved for posterity) is not, and so I will not. By publishing interviews, I am essentially throwing the subjects of them to the wolves. I am dropping them off for their fist day of junior high in their dirty gumboots and protruding braces, and saying, “good luck, take the bus home!”
To be clear, the majority of Pinkbike.com users are positive, supportive, humorous and engaging. But when an athlete tells me after an interview that he feels like 'everyone' thinks he’s an a*shole because a few ass-hats derailed the comments into a barrage of insults, I take issue. Particularly as the abuse usually falls to the ones who are the most genuine; the ones who care the most about our community and make the time to contribute. They are putting their everything into racing World Cups, risking their lives at Red Bull Rampage, paying their own way to compete around the world, or sharing personal stories that they feel our community can benefit from, and yet because it is not a face-to-face interaction they risk being preyed on by the trolls. It has been said that humiliation is felt more intensely than happiness or anger, and humiliation is what these trolls seek. Why is it okay to hurl degrading slurs at another human being simply because they are in the public eye and distanced by a computer screen? It's not. Developing a thick skin, as I did as an awkward child, should not a be requirement for pursuing your life goals and dreams.
One well-known psychologist, who specializes in the study of cyber-stalking and harassment, advocates ending abuse online through the cultivation of empathy. Currently, we exist in a state where the more we read and absorb the negative comments, the more numb we become to them, and we very easily forget they are targeted at another very real human being. Somewhere between the temptation to engage with the nastiness, even with the most noble of intentions, and our acting on it we need to pause and remember that. Perhaps quietly stepping right over the purposeless negativity and re-engaging with the original content is a way to nullify these voices.
What the narcissists and everyday sadists want, what they feed off, are the replies. Knowing that they have caused us upset is how they win. The more responses we supply, the more triumphant and fulfilled they are in their mission and the likelier they are to repeat it. Don’t feed the trolls, invalidate them. Read the comments, shake your head at the ignorance and leave their hatefulness to wither and die. Protect the quality of our culture and engage as a community to keep the landscape of our content rich, diverse, and meaningful.
MENTIONS: @dbaker /
@WAKIdesigns
This is possibly the most accurate description of marketing based "content" I have heard for a while.
We should keep in mind that many articles are often just as much about giving exposure and promoting something and not just about a "candid and valuable story to be shared" which I would wager is passed for editorial approval so as not to upset anybody.
Shure we all are bikers at heart but it is a bit patronising to suggest the internet is not largely a advertising medium, and most sites content has the purpose of generating sales as the main objective.
"...the slow erosion of quality content - writing, photographs, video, etc."
I doubt that "trolls" are the cause of this
In a way this article is just a sneaky sideways troll, I liked it
This is possibly the most accurate description of marketing based "content" I have heard for a while. "
This this this this this this this this this!
^^ I agree with you, monkey breath.
Niner EMD that I had was horrible beyond belief. Today you take Stumpy 29 and it feels more agile than my 26 Nomad, while being fast as fk. Suspension got so good. 160 Pike is undoubtedly a better fork for DH track than 2008 Boxxer World Cup at the same time as good climber as 2008 Reba. Current brakes like Zee provide immense stopping power under great control at good price and are virtually fade free, without weighing a ton. Super strong alu rims, only slightly heavier than insanely expensive carbon ones.?Dropper posts, dialled UST. It's really hard to buy a fkd up bike these days and that's why I give them the benefit of doubt because it's very little to whine about. Yeti SB6c got a positive first impression. Then I heard a rumor that Pinkbike reviewers broke two chainstays and I thought, wow they didn't mention that aye?. What happens though is that few months later a long term review comes and Yeti gets smacked for that, then Mike Levy cooks up a long rant that he doesn't like to be fed with "pre-production BS".
So yea, it feels authentic to read about something being wrong but at the same time, those bikes really are fkng awesome
For sure we do only get 1 chance.
Keiran McKandie was my best building and riding buddy, that weekend (1 month ago today) was the first weekend we hadn't ridden together this year because I was away racing. Keiran was a fantastic trail builder, awesome young man and loved to shred and dig from first light to last light.
I ride 4 k-dawg.
No matter what is written in an article on here, a comment etc. How Keiran lived for mountain biking was so refreshing.
We all need a guy like Keiran on the trails, it makes them a better place.
www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/877984/cyclists-tribute-to-keiran
Maybe we keep everything above the threshold and let the people decide and voice opinions.
@ThomDawson I agree we should respond more to those we think are trolls. There's nothing like a little intellect to sort the wheat from the chaff.
And another point... who sensors the sensors???? If there is no sensorship we have to make up our own minds... maybe this is a little too liberal a concept to work in reality but you would hope that on a mtb website we can all act a little bit like grown ups...
You can't start calling people names just because they disagree with you. You're not a troll because you're fed up with this month's new standard and you aren't a ludite because you aren't jumping on the latest hype train. A healthy dose of skepticism and critical thinking has never been a bad thing. I agree the the conversation level isn't as great as it could be but to me it is better than being stuck with politically correct statements that never rub people the wrong way, or no comments at all.
There are lots of "opinion" editorials these days trying to calm down the angry mob but I don't think it is going to work. Pinkbike, or the bike industry, isn't the only place this is happening. This is 2016, things got a lot more transparent in the last 20 years as people have access to more information than ever. they're starting to see through the shady stuff. Business/political models based on screwing people aren't as opaque anymore. This isn't going away, You WILL get called on your bullshit and if you want to stay relevant, you'll have to deliver or die. I really do not see this as a bad thing at all.
If everyone seem to hate what you do, take a look at yourself before blaming it on everybody else.
This piece is wonderfully written like most of what Baker does, but I think there's a problem lurking on the edges that it never confronts. When you're talking about nurturing relationships with the people you write about, building their trust and friendship -- trying to ensure that the experience of being covered is a positive one -- then you're moving out of pure journalism and moving into a gray area between journalism and industry PR.
Look, I'm not defending the trolling and the infantile name-calling PB has allowed to flourish in its comments. Especially because the real viciousness is aimed at women. But I do think -- sometimes, and less often than other MTB media -- PB stakes out a position as an industry defender/explainer/PR-problem-solver. When PB writers aren't giving voice to the legitimate frustrations riders feel, then it's natural for readers to swing back in the comments.
As thoughtless and stupid and hurtful as they are, they can in time and through some twisted way lead to something positive.
I think the key for myself regarding trolls is not to ignore them, but to analyze them. I like to see their comments because it helps me understand them, and understanding them often makes me laugh and feel a little sorry for them rather than be hurt or offended, and react in a way that disarms them. Sometimes people will be contrary for the sake of it, without reason and without care and nothing you could say or do will change them since their only purpose is to create conflict through conflict. And sometimes people cling to an idea and defend it blindly without really giving it any consideration, but they are in reality not very invested in that idea. Identifying which type of these trolls you are dealing with is also important.
Trolls are everywhere and not at all just on the internet. History is full of trolls because history is full of people, and sometimes, even horrifically often, people SUCK. But people can also be great, and people can also change.
This was a good article @dbaker @WAKIdesigns and provided more insight into the challenges of producing content nowadays.
Please show examples.
I think the term/concept that better fits the shaming of an alternate opinion is the use of "Hater". Calling someone out as a "hater" just because they genuinely have a different opinion is not constructive at all, and yes, can absolutely be used to manipulate the opinions of an audience.
Trolls function a little bit differently than the "Oh well your just a hater" crowd, but there is obviously some overlap.
The "Your just a hater, or your just a kook" folks are the more dangerous ones really, as they create an us vs them mentality that does not encourage people to come forward with their ideas or allow them to share their opinions in a constructive way.
The trolls usually just want to push someones buttons for the sake of it, create a commotion and gain a lot of attention and just say things they know are going to annoy or offend people. They are predictable.
a) It makes f*ck all difference to 99% of riders
b) It totally devalues our bikes for re-sale
c) Stuff we have isn't compatible any more so it's totally worthless
d) A lot of the time it couldn't be more of a minuscule irrelevant change if they had done it for any other purpose than to piss us off.
e) We want bike bits to get cheaper. If Trek/Sram/Specialized keep changing every minute detail in the name of 'progress' that will never happen (and we know that is a big part of the business model)
I think the readership is better informed than most realise, but that is the first line of attack from most 'in-the-know'. If you want an idea of what Pinkbike's loyal fanbase have to say about the website of late, this comment section is an oddly well put together damning report.
@WAKIdesigns Eroding culture or eroding trails, which one should we all worry about more? All jokes aside I knew you would be in the mix just from reading the title. Thanks for all the laughs!
Sometimes good points, other times feels like just commenting for the pure sake of hearing the keyboard make noise haha
Has it ever occurred to anyone that waki IS protour ? I've known many a troll to have many accounts.
Yes because not giving a shit for the feelings of morons without a command of the facts is considered trolling on a site that lets everyone behave as such and in fact encourages it with up/down comment voting. You lemmings DO all realize the website counts prop votes as clicks for viewing things just as it does replies don't you ? This is important to advertisers to prove the website is worth their time and to brands who submit things for review.
Unreal. What a piece of shit this wackjob is..
Yours truly: the fool.
Real world problems... saudi arabia is the leading money spender when it comes to promoting jihadism and world terrorism, not to mention the greatest threat towards the world's economy. This week they threatened to sell off $750 BILLION in US treasury notes if congress passes a bi-partisan senate bill that would allow US citizens to sue foreign governments and corporations that sponsor terrorism. President Obama's response to that threat is that he's considering declassifying the 28 pages of the 9/11 Terrorism Investigation that have been unseen by anyone outside of government circles for 13 years now.
Myself I'm more concerned about the outcome of the later than the former.
Of course, there are real trolls but expecting everyone to marvel at everything new is unreasonable. This isn't North Korea.
They also delete perfectly valid comments if it doesn't suit the advert....erm review.
This whole article (and most others) circumvents the real issue here; there is a cause (dissatisfied people) and a consequence (bad publicity). They're trying to squelch the angry mob without addressing the problem. I got bad news for them; as much as you'd like it, the consequences to your actions will not go away if you refuse to solve the cause. And if you believe it is a viable strategy, then I've got a bridge to sell you...
People sucks in real life too, it's not like internet creates something new, it's already there. I guess I'm one of the people that got used to trolls or I should said that I get used to humanity.
The piece on e-bikes yesterday springs to mind, anyone in favour of them was pretty much lambasted and Waki was accused of being a troll.
It also made me laugh that it was OK to say how attractive Hannah Barnes looked in the background when the last guy was being interviewed,but anyone admitting to finding the Yoga Girl sexy and commenting on it gets ripped apart.
One persons idea of a humorous comment can be the next persons idea of trolling. Who decides?
As a woman, I rarely find the need to post that male athletes are hot (I mean, they all own mirrors, right? They probably know already), so mostly I don't really understand why so many dudes just HAVE to share with the world that they think Yoga Girl (or whoever) is sexy. Then again, maybe I'd ask Yoann Barelli to marry me in the comments more often if I didn't think my dashboard would immediately explode with 100 variations on HAHA UR GAAAAY
It's a fantastic quote!
Also suicide and emotional turmoil is unique to each person. The brain is a mysterious place and chemical in balances and fluctuations also attribute to our emotional stability. To say every human should be impervious to words is not viable.
Just sayin'.
There is nothing wrong with asking someone to prove a claim, It should be easy as everything on the internet is there forever... So just a link a link to prove this article isnt trolling. That she wrote an article and males called her names to the point she feels that she has to develop thick skin so she can follow her dream.
And honestly... the answer is yes, male/female you need to have a thick skin if your putting yourself out in public. Look what I have to put up with just to make a comment from that homo Jamez... ;>
That's is I reported you!
19000 hour ban for you!!!
seems she was trying to not give a f*ck back four years ago and is still struggling with it
www.bikemag.com/blog/the-bakery-the-power-of-not-giving-a-fck
edit: I dont' follow him from post to post. He's got his head so far up his ass he thinks he has followers? pahahaha
Uci dh race # 2 is this weekend, everyone else on here will be watching.. You will probably still be running your mouth
tl;dr too much drama and BS
www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1PgiBpTtao
no control!
-"I am pretty sure there is no evidence for existence of God, mr O'Reilly"
- Oh no senator, we saw your memo from 1971 and in it, you can't tell the difference between an engine and a motor. Then we found a speech of yours from the times when you were running for a Governors seat in Ohio in 1988, where you said nuclear instead of nucular. Your grammar and vocabular defficiency makes everything you say invalid. I would not even trust you if you said that 2+2 equals 4.
When you get a large enough community of people you're gonna get pricks. it's physics or something. Let's all get a straw each, and suck it up.
WAKIdesigns vernonfelton's article
15 hours
Random Thoughts from Monterey - Sea Otter 2016
I just got paid a fat sum of Canadian pesos, by Sierra Club and I'm going to dress up as Lawrence of Arabia, take that electric fatbike and ride it on sundays through national parks shouting "Allah snackbar! I am a mountain biker! Chris Kyle was a fg and was killed by his disappointed lover." - bullet proof vest from Leatt will be nice too.
As a community, we could allow this fun to happen as long as we engage our own empathy in judging whether a comment is worth another comment or an upvote / downvote. Also, the idea of bringing the discussion back to the original topic probably needs to happen every hour or so, since this place can be like a kindergarten with free sugar.
This is a brilliant article and I think we can really benefit from the ideas that are presented here. We can take the power out of the negative comments by using empathy to adjudicate comments and still keep the fun of the comments section alive.
@dbaker you are awesome! Great article.
Believe it or not, some people troll or attack others as a form of dealing with being depressed or hurting and they're too immature or lack the understanding to deal with it in a way that doesn't bring down others. This in turn makes them feel "better" to bring others down with them.
Lastly, some people do it just because, no other reason needed, they want to see peoples reactions like saying "only good riders use 29r bikes" knowing that comment is going to get down voted into oblivion, That was the point, so they could say "Hey look at MY comment, look I did and how everyone gave it attention".
The less attention you give them the better and in some cases (depending on the individual doing the trolling) trolling them back with a little logic added in with get them to either digress or admit why they're trolling in the first place.
Or remove the anononimity and use real names (which is impossible to police). So it's a double edged sword. To get the banter and the wit you have to put up with the trolls. It's simply a part of the internet.
There is a reason why companies such as YouTube try to force this on the users.
Personally I think banning people for long periods (1-5 years) will also teach them. As long as you make sure no one can create a new account from that same IP address.
We should simply be better at taking responsibility for what we write. My trolling ethic has always been, to not hide behind an avatar and user name and always be willing to take sht.
Facebook has a much wider audience, thereby also a higher percentage of scum.
For a fair comparison you should compare mountainbiking groups on Facebook or comments underneath the links that Pinkbike shares on Facebook. To me it feels like there's less trolling and calling names inbetween mountainbikers on Facebook then on Pinkbike, which I think is the result of the anonimity here on Pinkbike due to usernames.
Not saying that switching our nicknames to our real names will solve the problem. But I do think the amount of childish behavior would go down by a certain percentage. No idea how much that certain percentage would be, could be 1%, could be 80%. But I do think it would go down.
So guess what im trying to say is people will be a*sholes regardless of the group they belong.
I enjoy the hilarious puns displayed on the most mundane product intro on PB. And the instant and misguided e-bike HATE on display whenever it rears its ugly head.
culture:
: the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time
: a particular society that has its own beliefs, ways of life, art, etc.
: a way of thinking, behaving, or working that exists in a place or organization (such as a business)
(reference, merriam webster)
m.youtube.com/watch?v=xZDK_LG9DuU
www.youtube.com/watch?v=670if6Etx0o
I read many of the comments that followed the article and noticed that some of the comments were positive but unfortunately the negative comments started and then dominated the remainder comments to the bottom.
Those that post negative comments really don't realize that they discourage people from posting quality content about the sport we all apparently love which is the reason we are at this website.....right?
But trolls are part of this community also, maybe underestimated human being whoever this might be, there is always a problem within hinself and society is helping to cure this problem much. People tend to relay on stuff coming from "society" e.g. a good marketing department of a company. And there is a lot of people who can't keep up and if you count another frustrations from family, work, neighborhood, you name it... they are looking for compensate the aggression which is growing inside of them. Trolling is just an expression of something worse.
So just because you think that the comment comes from a "Troll" maybe it comes from a different view point.
So lets talk about the athletes you interview. While I don't care about any of them, I also have no sympathy for them either (We can about empathy all day, but lets be real I don't sympathsize for individuals that are doing things that most would love to take their place and would take the issues that arise as, shit happens get use to it). You mention they risk their lives everyday for the sport in RedBull rampage, that is their choice. At least they get to have fun doing it. There was a story in my local paper about how an older gentle man killed 2 police officers when they arrived at his home to exercise an eviction. They have a dangerous job that serves public good. We could all find some other sort of entertainment.
Maybe what this article should be about is ego. If you read an article about yourself and you don't like what you hear, it's either the voice in which you were portrayed or you think your shit don't stink, and it smells like (insert clever anecdote).
I'll leave you with this, Think outside, no box required.
I prefer this definition of prey- a person or thing is the victim of an enemy, a swindler, a disease, etc.
Lets's use prey in a sentence - The creepy old guy at the club was preying on the young women.
But to each his own. But it takes a true master of thought to define my thoughts as a concept you learned (Do you understand my thoughts or are you classifying my thoughts so you can explain them to yourself).
Am I going to Genocide the internets on the line?
I do like how they have the one chick article as "The Bakery" though. Lulz.
#chestergate
Where's waki at?
If you look at the SRAM 12spd 'First look' articles on each website, Vital has 31 comments on theirs whilst PB have 702 comments, so it's definitely very popular amongst users.