Whistler Village Randoms: Crankworx 2016

 If another standard is needed, it's how to measure a f**cking tire. It's absolutely silly that tire manufacturers can't measure and publish the same way. Especially at a time when frame manufacturers are designing frames around certain tires sizes. I get it - everyone wants an edge or to be different but this is at the cost of the consumer. While all of the tires manufacturers are guilty to an extent, Maxxis is the worst. And this is coming from someone who loves Maxxis tires but won't give them another cent until they can learn to measure...

 @TheFunkyMonkey: different width rims make some difference as well

 @TheFunkyMonkey: there are two things going on here:
- rim width: 2mm difference in rim width equals 1mm difference in how wide the same tyre will actually be.
- marketing: the weight of a tyre has always been one of the first things that consumers look at. By making the tyre a bit skinnier than you labeled it, your tyre will be lighter as other companies their tyres labeled at the same width, meaning your sales will increase. This is the main reason for unreliable tyre widths.

 @Mattin: I completely understand how tires change with different widths. Perfectly clear. How about the manufacturers agree, for the sake of the consumer, to provide measurements using a certain width rim at a set pressure? At least then the consumer has a baseline to work from. But @Mattin, you hit the nail on the head - it's all about marketing. My exact point above...

 @TheFunkyMonkey: the problem is the lack of rules about on what rim to measure the tyre. For example if Schwalbe measures it on 25mm rims, Maxxis could still claim their width is correct, but they just measured it on 32mm rims. There should be some rule that tyres of a certain width have to be measured on rims of a certain width. Now tyre brands are free to label their tyres however they want to, without having any consequences.

 @Mattin: We agree brother.

 @TheFunkyMonkey: haha we do

 @Mattin: They could just publish bead to bead measurements, it wouldn't translate directly to any on-bike measurement, but would not depend on any setup question.
If they were interested in conveying accurate info. I'd think it would be pretty easy for a couple bigger players to start this and shame those that don't publish bead-bead as being dishonest.

 @Weens: bead to bead would be the most accurate but difficult for the general consumer to understand. I would like those numbers, however.

 7 Funking wheels in one weekend???

 @TheFunkyMonkey: i agree.

 @TheFunkyMonkey: I think you're underestimating people. Do you really think there are riders out there that wouldn't understand that a larger bead-bead corresponds to a wider tire?
Sure, it would take a little while to get used to, and sure the guys on here that complain about everything would complain about it (probably calling it a new standard), but I think after a year we'd reminisce about how stupid tire width measurements were, right along with cantilever brakes and fixed seatposts

 That minion is a 29x3 are we looking at a 29plus tyre as that's going to be one massive wheel tyre combo!

 @Weens: Fair points, Weens, including my underestimating riders. I think that most that post here would understand b2b measurements but I'm not convinced the entire riding population could grasp b2b (at first at least). I think there are plenty that don't understand what a tire bead is - go over to MTBR if you need clear evidence. BUT as you point out, over time, it could be understood and accepted. What I think we all agree on is that we need a better process than what we have now...

 @TheFunkyMonkey: true that. I've met way too many cyclists who don't know how to change a tyre or how to get the play out of your headset (one guy even thought his stem was f*cked because it kepts slipping no matter how tight he tensioned his top cap bolt). I think most Pinkbike readers know more about bikes than the average cyclist, first of all because they are here searching for information, second of all because you can learn a lot from Pinkbike (even more from the comments, since they'll burn the sugar coating off the articles and unleash the truth).

 We need a plus tire shoot out with casing strength and calipers

 Will they come out in a 27.5+ 3.0?

 So true

 @TheFunkyMonkey: if you read the etrto numbers they are accurate in sizing. They will post a number like 584x50 and that is the actual size in mm.

 @bonfire: Exactly... ETRTO is usually pretty accurate. Usually. Never go by the inch dimensions.

 @TheFunkyMonkey: We totally agree and strive to make accurately sized tires. Our reputation of having undersized tires comes as a result of how we measure tires during the design process. Maxxis tires are designed to be true to width when mounted on the intended rim width at maximum pressure, with the width being the widest point on the tire (normally the tread). We realize that many riders will run tires on wider rims and gain a bit of width or at less pressure and lose a little but would rather be consistent in knowing that our tires will clear a given frame rated at a particular tire width. Nobody wants to have a tire rub on a frame when you add a few PSI to maintain tire performance when you're loaded down with camera gear, an extra winter coat, lunch beers, or weekend camping gear. Our OE partners agree and would rather know that the tires that come on their bikes fit within the engineering considerations they used when designing suspension performance and frame geometry. Also note that many of our tires will grow a bit over the first few days as the casing relaxes under pressure, it's normal for tires to grow a few millimeters after being inflated.

Feel free to shoot over a PM if you have any other questions about how we measure our tires.

 @Maxxis: Just a thought: that measurement is useful for bike companies, but next to useless for a regular person, who, depending on the tire, will never approach max pressure, & will often mount the tire on a different width rim.

Have you considered having a spec width you give out to bike companies, but actually putting a "real world width" on the hotpatch? Or, as I know you've been reasonably candid about what rim width(40mm) the plus tires are measured on, publishing exactly what rim width each tire is measured on? Heck, add to that a recommend range of rim widths for each tire as well. Give us more information so we can make educated decisions!

 @groghunter: no matter what measurements they come up with it will still be simpler than automobile tires where the numbers are all wonky with the thickness being a certain percentage of the width.

 @TheFunkyMonkey: just more proof that the rider will always come second to the almighty dollar

 @TheFunkyMonkey: Kinda off topic but The actual measurement of the wheel drives me crazy. 24 inch wheels have a dia of about 22 inches. 26inch maybe around 24 inches dia. I have an old ccm with 28 inch wheels, they measure 25 inches in dia. Wheels and tires are ridiculous.

 Maybe on a fat bike rim....

 @Maxxis: Thank you for taking the time to reply. It speaks volumes, at least to me, when manufacturers take the time to follow-up on comments. And I appreciate the insight into your measuring approach and why it is the way it is. That being said, you admit to the reputation of undersized tires which is not a good reputation - even when explained. When I put three 2.35 tires from different manufacturers side by side, all things being equal, they should be pretty damn close. And we all know that isn't the case in a lot of situations and this is what causes confusion and frustration. This confusion and frustration isn't good for Maxxis, any other tire manufacturer but most importantly the consumer who purchases product. While we scream and kick every time a new standard is pushed down our throats, it's clear the time has come for some tire measurement standard that all tire manufacturers commit to. If not, they can get hung out to dry in the court of public opinion when their 2.35 actually is a 2.25. Allowing this confusion to carry on isn't good for anyone. As a leader in this space you are squarely positioned to lead in this way - please do so. And I appreciate the offer to PM with any other questions. Thanks again!

 @Thustlewhumber: Maxxis already have 3.0" Plus tires. 2.8 is where it's at, though. More cornering stability with the same rolling feel.

 @Maxxis: Things have improved with your widths - was very weird to buy a 26" 2.5" DHF and a 2,4DHR2, mount them on the same rims, and fing the 2,4 was much wider. The 27.5s all seem to size up true.

Please hurry with the 2.8 Miniions.... people are waiting for plus tyres, and the ones from a certain German competitor of yours just aren't up to it

 @TheFunkyMonkey: We are definitely aware and you may have noticed that on a lot of newer tires we are designing around more realistic maximum pressures in order to provide products that are truer to size for the end users and OE partners, both of whom care about these things. All this being said, ETRTO doesnt lie, if you are comparing one tire to the next, that is the number to look for on the side of the tire. You will also begin seeing recommended rim widths accompanying newer tires, something we started with fat and plus tire packaging and have continued with our Wide Trail tires in order to educate consumers.

 Just for reference, I walked out to my garage and measured a Knobby Nick and Rekon on the same rim. Both tires are labeled 27.5 x 2.8 and both are mounted on the same DT XM551 (40mm Internal). Both were pumped up to 30 psi, which was weird to have them feel like rocks, and honestly I didn't want to fill them up to full max. I also read their ERTRO numbers and this was the measured results:

Rekon (71-584): 69mm wide
Knobby Nick (70-584): 71mm wide

To be fair to Maxxis the Rekon side walls did start to stretch more as I was pumping, though the Knobby Nick really didn't change noticeably with higher pressure. The Rekon even hit a point where I was not measuring at the side nobs, but the side casing was growing wider as I approached 30psi. Under normal pressure (23 psi) I was using the side nobs and the width was more around a 67mm, which translates to a 27.5 x 2.63. Remounted the Rekon on a 35mm internal, and you get a 66.5mm or 27.5x2.62 which maybe could call a Mid-Plus (tm).

 @robbiedunks1: If you take the time to actually learn how the Metric sizing for automotive tires work, it makes perfect sense, and I seldom need to go to a mfg'r webpage to get the actual overall height, etc, as on a good day, I can do it in my head, on a bad day, it takes me about a minute with a calculator........

 @Thustlewhumber:

DHF will be in a 650B x 2.7 and 2.8, DHR II will be in a 650B x 2.8. For full fat owners, Minion FBF and FBR in 650B x 3.8, 26 x 3.0 and 26 x 4.8.

 @deeeight:

Damn, I got excited for a second, then realized "26 x 3.0" was probably a typo....

 @Kyle201:

oops...that was supposed to be 4.0, although...maxxis having read that might get the idea to do a 3.0 to compete with Surly's 26 dirt wizard offerings.

 Yeah, nice and low profile. Hope they have addressed the toe box coming apart. Might have to buy a pair.

 My experiences with durability on suede Fivetens is much better than my expieriences with other materials, so these may get the nod from me purely for that reason. I do wish the toe leather was less one big gray piece of leather though, makes them look kinda like safety shoes.

 the features sound nice, but im not a huge fan of the loafer look...

 Wow,.mtb shoes are finally getting there. Now just make that gray heel area black. The more they dont look like mtb shoes the better!

 Looks like I just found my new office shoes.

 Looking at em again and im reminded of bowling shoes with that color layout.

 Well you must be unlucky. I've had pretty good results with EXO tires on the back so far. I only ripped the sidewall on my Ardent 2.4 once in over a year, when I smashed into a huge boulder on the side of the trail. Back at home I stitched it with some dental floss and put a patch on the inside, no trouble since.

 one back landing or big rock hit and your rear EXO tire will deform instantly... they're good but you need to keep it smooth to make them last in the rear.. SG Schwalbes (and I guess DD MAXXIS) are the way to go for the rear tire if you dont want DH casing for your Enduro bike.
EDIT: My contis Der Baron projekt 2.4 have taken a beating as well with bad landings and poor line choice, still fine for 4 months...

 @kopaczus: I've given up on the exo TR casing. It rips, it leaks, it punctures, it rolls and burps, it stretches and won't seat properly. I only weigh 75kg and had to run near 40psi in the back just to keep the tire on the rim.

I've gone to WTB's tough enduro casing and it's night and day. I'm finally confident in my tires.

 Maxxis rep confirmed the other day that they are already shipping Minion SS in Double Down.

 2 ripped exo casings this summer. i just went to full downhill rubber in the back.

 @adrennan: in my experience Exo is the toughest of 1ply casings. And 1-ply casings are not tough enough for most modern bikes. If you rip, then you need at least GRID/ SuperGravity kind of stuff, not only for puncture and cut protection but also for stability. I got it rather quickly when riding exo on trails which are mixed machine dug/natural. I got to some speed on machine dug stuff, and it felt only slightly vague in berms, then I come into natural sht at speed and wooofukkkkkkk. Changed tyres to 2 ply for the next day, and suddenly I am not being thrown around all over the place. I want to buy Minion SS Double down as soon as they become available in Sweden.

 @WAKIdesigns: I actually went for a Griffin for the rear in full downhill casing from Maxxis. Really like it. Maybe worth the try.

 DoubleDown versions of the DHF, DHRII, HRII, and Minion SS should be making their way out to shops around the world any week now. We already have them in the USA and I know that they are on the way to Europe. DD Griffin is also just around the corner. All of these are 26, 27.5, and 29 x2.30". For high-volume tires, the 27.5x2.50 DHF is the only large tire available with DD.

 @Maxxis: Any word on if those will also available as DD with the wide trail? I know there is a DD WT DHF out. Would love to have a DD WT DHRII and minion SS.

 Been running exo tyre perfect with the Deaneasy inner tub as past year. 20 psi in tyre 130 psi in tub. No burps, punctures or anything. Dont need dualply and heavy tube anymore like I used to.

 @Lagr1980: happened to me on too many rear tires that are not DD or dh casing. The tire burps hard to the point the casing deforms. Looks like a bump or an untrue rim but it's the tire. 3 tires in one season

 @Maxxis: Would really love to see more wide tyres in DD casing, as EXO isn't enough protection for the trails I'm riding, and I really like some of your treads.

 @WAKIdesigns @adrennan: from my experience, trailstars snakeskins/grid/exo/grid aren't cutting for fast rocky trails, destroyed them all. Maybe Super Gravity and Double Down would be fine but that remains to be seen. Only tire I had luck with so far is the Michelin Wild Rock'r 2 Reinforced (~1000g though but worth it). No SG for me though as schwalbes 2.35 are too big to fit my rear triangle if I can't manage to keep my rear wheel 100% true. DD was hardly available for 26" last I checked, maybe I'll have a go at them when they start getting to the shops.

 I wish I was there for that conversation. My female friends who I jump with have these conversations often! There are a few events where women do compete but rarely is their mention of it.

 Waiting for white patten leather 5.10s...

 Strongly disagree. More bike shoes that look like shoes not spaceships please.

 @Patrick9-32: Agreed. When I'm spending $150 on shoes I want to be able to wear them in public.

 I could wear them to work. I can wear anything I want to work, but those are kinda flossy. I'm known to have bad taste though.

 Thanks for the vote of confidence. We've still got a few tricks up our sleeves too come Eurobike and Interbike. Stay tuned!

 @Maxxis: looking forward seeing whats coming from you guys . Big fans of Maxxis ever since I once tried the Minions.

 @Maxxis: please make more 60 compound tire combinations. We like our rear tires to last longer. The DHR 2 is such a great tire but doesn't last long in the 3C.

 @jaydawg69: ugh but then how will they sell more tires....

 @build-n-ride: the more grip, the faster the tyre wears. There's a good reason some tyres wear faster than others. Especially tyres are a part where you shouldn't be a cheapass on if you want your bike to ride decently.

 @Maxxis: Glad to hear. I've really enjoyed a Tomahawk 29 up front on my Ripley LS, but as the trails have dried out and the dust has gotten a lot deeper (Grand Junction/Fruita), I've been wanting something with a taller tread. I'd love to try the Rekon in a 29, or the 29x3.0 DHF (when are they coming?). Also, I'm not sure which tires are on the old sizing and which are new. Would a 29x2.5 DHF be wider than my 29x2.3 Tomahawk? I just remember when an Ardent 2.4 or even my Ikon 2.35 were far wider than my DHF/R 2.5's of the past.
Thanks

 @Mattin: I don't think a tire that lasts for 10 rides or so and cost $100 is a good roi. You are going to have more traction with a knobby tire that's a harder compound that a bald tire with a sticky compound.

 @jaydawg69: retail price for the 3C here is about €70 for 3C, meaning you can buy them online for about €35-40. My current Minion EXO has about 15-20 rides on them and is still good as new, no signs of wear.

Any real proper tyre will cost you about the same amount of money.

 @Mattin: Well obviously that was mostly sarcasm there bro. Still running a single compound or even a dual rear would be much nicer than having to run 2 3c tires. My 3c DHF in the rear was shot after 8 days of riding half of which were bike park days at whistler. Cornering knobs are all cracked and breaking down same with breaking knobs. Sure two 3c max grips are the way to go if your racing, but not if your trying to get at least a month out of a set of tires. They are still way better than Schwable vert star compound at least.

 @Mattin: my 60 compound tire will last 2x as long as a 3c in the rear. I run sticky up front as that's where most of the traction is needed

 @Maxxis I was running 2 nobby nic 2.8 trailstar in the apex casing. Been hammering them for a while no issues. Decided to try Maxxis HR2 2.8 up front Rekon rear both in EXO 3C. First ride out today and the rekon on the back tore. Put a tube in and 10 mins later that was punctured too (running quite a high 20psi too). I can't remeber the last time I had to push my bike like I did today. Can Maxxis tell me if the silkshield will be anywhere near as strong as Schwalbe Apex? Gutted the tyre is screwed after just one ride!

 @supermike306: We would definitely recommend picking up one of the SilkShield/EXO models if you are riding in terrain with sharp rocks. It approaches DoubleDown levels of reliability while meeting a lower weight goal for the 27.5+ platform.

 I find it funny that the caption said "I've built a lot of wheels." I thought people learned this on the first build? If not their own, from a teaching hand

 I use a variation of this at times but with a nipple threaded on backwards to act as a stop for the nipple that is going to be used in the build. That said, the EVT spoke tools are awesome and I really should buy my own set some time.

 I learned that from a shop I worked in like 15 years ago haha. It's not a new trick at all. We made a tool for it with 2 nipples lockd together and a bit of thread showing, with a T end. Works pretty good. Ardent 4.0 please.

 The way to go is to use a section of the tube from a can of GT85, it is the right size and soft enough that the thread cuts into it a little bit so you can thread them on and off easily but they don't turn without you wanting them to. @djpearce taught me that trick and it makes building wheels about 10 times easier with a quarter of the swearing.

 Minion 2.80s just landed in the US, shouldnt be long on your side of the world. DH casing 2.5" Minion SS are also available if you want the extra volume. Jesse and Richie showed that pedaling around a DH rear tire and DD front tire can work well for enduro riding

 @Patrick9-32: Yep, GT85 straw is the way to go. Best wheel building tip ever!

 A writeup and photo of a homemade spoke nipple tool as described above can be found at

www.urbanvelo.org/issue26/images/p88-89.jpg

I made one myself, but with a round loop at the end instead of a T. I also used some heat shrink tubing instead of tape for the grip area.

 @Maxxis: when will the 27.5x2.8 be available to purchase from you or available through your distributors???

 @newtoDH: I've built one wheel in my life. I think I was doing that by about the 3rd spoke.. was kinda suprized to to see it mentioned here.

 @Tonyster2: if you ever read MBA in the 90's nothing would surprise you haha

 @Maxxis: Where can I find the 2.8 Minion? I need one or two. Things are pretty loose at the Steamboat BME this weekend.

 @Maxxis: + 1 for DH casing rear DD up front, just ran this setup on a two week biking holiday. Its fine to pedal if you can handle the extra weight and not a single flat all trip. switched back to butcher/slaughter control for the mellow trails back home

 @Maxxis: When and where can I get a 2.8 Minion in the U.S?

 @Maxxis: Thanks for the clarification on the Minion 2.8's for those interested:"Typically when we say tires have landed it means they are on US soil in our warehouse and about to be sent out to all of the distributors and shops. You should start seeing these in shops over the next few weeks."

 2.8 Rekon or 3.0 Minion. Unless you're implying that Maxxis tyres often are narrower than claimed?

 @Mattin: Nah I messed up, its a 3" Minion which will probably measure 2.8 which would be good.

 I'd really like something in between, like a 3.0 Rekon. Or, you know, for Rekons to actually be a thing you can buy, rather than a thing you see pictures of

 @Mattin: Actually the 27.5+ tires are 2.80" and the 29+ tires are 3.00 since the 29+ frames these days are designed for the added tire width without any other compromises.

 But in reality it's a 2.5...

 @TheFunkyMonkey: Hopefully around 2.7"-2.8" casing. I would be happy with that.

 @fartymarty: a 2.8 on an advertised 3.0 would be significant progress in the measuring (and avertising) department, if true, for Maxxis.

 According to the Maxxis rep I talked to at 24HOP, the 2.8" tires are dead on 2.8", on either a 40mm or 45mm rim(can't remember which.)

 @groghunter: They are true to size on a 40mm inner rim width rim. Same with the 3.00s.

 @Maxxis: What is the weight of the 29x3 Minion?

 I do rock a women's fox helmet. No different except the colour which is far nicer than the guys ones

 Stans ZTR Hugo.

 Cool

 I’m sure an honest mistake. Stoked they acknowledged her and included the pic!

 @jeremiahwas: Thanks for that mention. It was. I've known her from the first time she competed on a mountain bike.

 @RichardCunningham I'm sure @vt612 is regretting the comment by now and meant well.

 @jeremiahwas: No worries both ways. Glad @vt612 called it out. Getting names right is the first lesson in journalism 101.

 You mean like normal shoes?

 www.trekbikes.com/au/en_AU/bikes/mountain-bikes/trail-mountain-bikes/stache/c/B335

www.ninerbikes.com/ros9plus

surlybikes.com/bikes/krampus_ops

www.chumbausa.com/ursa

www.murucycles.com/#!mungo-plus/c1c4n

salsacycles.com/culture/introducing_woodsmoke

salsacycles.com/culture/introducing_deadwood

www.jonesbikes.com/jones-plus-frame-and-fork-set

 @Hammm: it's future proof. I expect that 29+ will become at least just as popular in a few years as 27+ is right now.

 i'm surprised nobody has responded to this comment with "your mum" yet...

 @Hammm: Fair enough.. They will be unobtainable however just like the 27.5+ versions over here. I can't get my hands on any for my 6fattie Stumpy