ok im sick of this shit i am in the canadian military THERES MORE THAN 4 f*ckIN TANKS...and thats not even one of canadas tanks to begin with :@

a href="http://photobucket.com/images/canadian%20military" target="_blank">img src="http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb250/Aerialbot/hehe.jpg" border="0" alt="Canadian military Pictures, Images and Photos"/>/a>

a href="http://photobucket.com/images/canadian%20military" target="_blank">img src="http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x23/hick96/CanadianMilitarySaver.jpg" border="0" alt="Canadian Military Pictures, Images and Photos"/>/a>

Damnit,
http://media.photobucket.com/image/canadian%20military/hick96/CanadianMilitarySaver.jpg?o=4

http://media.photobucket.com/image/canadian%20military/Aerialbot/hehe.jpg?o=6

ha those were the days im not 15 anymore and i AM enlisted in canadian reserves...doesnt change that fact that theres more then 4 tanks... www.forces.ca

And they improve it and make it better!

haaa, no

They may take our technology, but they don't make it better, they make it softer.

True, I saw that episode, its all Isreali. I dont know how u people talk like if Isrealis couldnt't make their own weapons, believe me when I say that Jews are intelligent people and have more money than Bill Gates and Donald Trump together.

Needs like policing an illegal wall, taking land that isn't theirs and illegitimately invading another country?

The "wall" is mainly a fence that it isn't very high in most areas. The only place where it is high is where most of the small-arms fire comes from and that is to stop bullets from being shot over. The "wall" is more like a chain link fence in most instances. The proof of the matter is that the "wall" or fence as I like to call it has drastically reduced the amount of terrorist attacks on Israelis and that justifies having it. The "wall" is also not policed. There are sensors and cameras that do the majority of the policing. There are routine patrols but that's it. Israel is a legitimate state and the land it has procured has been through wars that the Palestinians start and lose. Every war they have waged against Israel they have lost and they started them! Also, Israel was a state created by the UN for Jewish people. You can't get more legitimate than that.

Don't really want to kickstart this whole thing again, but I'll say three things and then you can say what you like, without me replying:

1) take a look at this map. The centre-left one was the UN approved land. That hasn't changed since 1947. What they now own is on the right. Illegally. Uncontestable. You can talk about wars and taking what you win, but if you can supposedly uphold Israel's right under "International Law" to exist, and then ignore their violations of "International Law" in taking over land illegally, for 60 years, you're a massive hypocrite.

2) I wonder if you know enough history to realise how many wars and humanitarian catastrophes have been caused by impulsive dividing up of countries/peoples by powers? Both World Wars, since WW1 was a product of the 19th-C power balance between France/England/Russia/Proto-Germany in Europe. It's almost always a terrible idea which leads to disaster, and the creation of an Israeli state after WW2 is a textbook example of how the consequences of playing with countries has long-term and terrible effects.

Oh and RE you saying that the Palestinians started all the wars: 1978, 1982 and 2005 are examples of Israeli invasions with no prior military conflict. It's never that clear-cut anyway.

harie, dude dont talk about stuff you only know one side of..

Amir, don't assume I only know one side.

it looks like it, i do respect your beliefs but claiming that the wall that i can see from my home and ruins the view on the mountains isnt necessary is not true, also claiming that we stole land isnt true, and suprise that the arabs that arent terrorizing and launching missiles at israeli towns are acctually citizens here, and even some of them ride with us, and into the motorsports scene too.

Click the link in my post and explain how Israel has not stolen land.

because after the UN partition plan our cousins wanted all of the land, so they started a war with us. most of the arab villages here got abandoned because the people thought we will be bad for them. after that they went to refugee camps like gaza and han-younes and all of that because their so called brothers didnt want to accept them to their own countries, in the mean while israel started developing the land, like drying up swamps, planting forests, bringing technology like electricity and phone lines... than in 67' the surrounding countries started a war on all fronts and as simple as that they lost and we won. in 1973 they started it again at a 2 day ''holiday'' called kipurim which is a sacred day for most of the jews (i dont really believe in it)that you dont drive, eat, use phone or anything, its a day for god to forgive your sins, but all of us respect it. they attacked at that day because they knew it was a sacred, and it was a harsh war but we won again. in 2005, the 2nd lebanon war hezbollah attacked and kidnapped 3 soldiers, one of them is still alive and you probably know him, Gilad Shalit. they want about 1,000 terrorists that killed and responsible of killing men, women and children.

You're surprised that they wanted all of the land? It's human nature. Read the second point in my second post again. I think that the creation of the state of Israel was a massive mistake and very short-sighted by the British and UN - no partition plan was ever needed. I understand why that was hard to see at the time, but in hindsight it was a terrible error.
I hold no candle to Zionism as anything other than a xenophobic concept of a religiously and ethnically homogenous state.

scuse me but its their problem that they dont know to control their nature. and the state of israel isnt such a bad concept after what happend in europe, and even before that, and if there was no israel the land wasnt developed, people here were hucking camels and driving goats, and you didnt had your intel processor or your cellphone. you can come visit anytime and see what a beautiful land we made it, its nothing what mark twain wrote in his book

You can say that it's their problem, but that makes you very ignorant of human nature and the realities of the situation. Massive problems arise when organisations play Country-Builder, and the international shitfest that currently is the Middle East is down to this precisely. The fact that Israelis developed mobile phones is so completely irrelevant to this discussion. As I said, I understand why it happened (holocaust), but it turned out to be the single biggest factor in preventing international peace.

israel is the single biggest factor preventing world peace? and im ignorant? ok cool.

The only reason they want it is because we have it. When it was a desert, infertile land, and a struggling economy, they didn’t want it! Once the land became fertile, the country prosperous, a hub for technological innovation, cutting edge medical advancement, etc., all of a sudden, they wanted it. If Israel was still the land of the Bedouin, roaming endlessly on camels in the desert, sleeping in tents, and living their hunting and gathering lifestyle, they wouldn’t want it. Now, that there are endless possibilities because of the hard work, dedication, and determination, they want it. We have worked hard for what we’ve made Israel into and we have come a long ways. This has not been easy. In addition to our hard work mentality, it has also taken a high toll on civilians and military alike. While you are riding your bike in a peaceful country, they are in the military. While you are in university, they are in the military. While you enjoy the freedom to go about, they live in constant danger.

I don't buy that for half a second. They didn't want it? You know as well as I do that that's bullshit.

And you're still missing my point.... which is: the divisive nature of the Israeli state is the reason for international insecurity

you can continue not buying that but what laurie said is what really is. when youll go to college after high school ill be in the army, learning how to protect my country if your ''friends'' will decide they want some more land or some more dead civillians. from the age of 18 untill 23 ill be in the army instead of whistler, and you? its easy for you to talk, you live far away of whats happening here. i wish there was peace, more places to ride, more people to know, but im going to the army because of people like nasserallah and his jolly group that dont want peace.

I see now that you're not going to get my point. Fair enough. Done.

You need to get your facts straight. Who started firing rockets first after the ceasefire ended? Do you honestly think any free country would accept that as a reality? No!

would you honestly sit back and accept the fact that your entire village was bombed to dust and what was once your country has been invaded by another without any sore feelings because of a ceasefire? who took over who's land here? by the way, a few casualties as a result of Hamas fighters (not the majority of palestinian people by the way) is no reason to kill hundreds of innocent civilians in retaliation. also, the use of chemical weapons (white phosphorus) on civilians makes me wonder if the Israeli military has any rules of engagement at all.

You seriously need a history lesson before you keep saying things that are incorrect. The United Nations established Israel as a state. As well, the Palestinians have started every war and Israel has responded by fighting and pushing back the Palestinians as they treat. Therefore, Israel conquered the land that they have by wars just like every other country has gained territory. Also, Hamas is not seen as a legitimate government and is not recognized by the UN! The reason why there was the latest invasion in Gaza was because Hamas was launching rockets. If Hamas didn't use terror and launch these rockets, there would not be an invasion. The only people condemned Israel's action was the Arab world. The Israelis let a lot of aid through including medical supplies and fuel once the rocket attacks lessened. They also gave specific times to the UN to go in there and deliver such aid. You make it look like Israel is doing something wrong. They try to minimalze collateral damage by sending out letters saying to et out of areas that they are going to be infiltrating and to not be around Hamas operatives as they are going to strike there. What more can they do? They give the Palestinians every opportunity to get away and they don't. Hamas is in violation of several UN Charters. They interact with the public and hide within the innocent civilians which leads to collateral damage. The majority of the casualties are Hamas operatives but it is difficult to not have any collateral damage because of the cowards of Hamas. Hamas launches rockets and wherever they land, they land. There is no calculation put into their attacks. Just point and shoot. At least Israel takes calculations and intelligence into consideration. As far as white phosphorous is concerned it wasn’t used as a chemical weapon. It was used for a covert operation to protect the troops while entering and was not used after that. It was purely used for a smoke screen. If they would have used it as a chemical weapon, the whole area would have been covered in white phosphorus and not just the area where troops were entering! The Israeli Defense Force has some of the most stringent rules of engagement compared to any other military in the world because they are often highly criticized by the leftist media and the Arab world and sometimes, the UN gets in there too. Hence the reason operations are videotaped.

i think you have me pegged as someone taking a side. i'm a humanitarian, my side is that of civilians. bombing civilians (even if the bombings are aimed at Hamas fighters - very few who have actually been killed in comparison to the amount of civilians by the way) is simply unethical. i do not agree with the Hamas fighters launching rockets at civilians in Israel any more than i agree with Israel bombing Palestinian civilians in retaliation. i can assume from your logic, that you agree with the USA's decision to bomb cities in Afghanistan, often wiping out entire communities, because they collected intel that there were one or two Taliban fighters hiding within. learn some history you say? oh how soon we are to forget. remember a little event that happened a long time ago called the holocaust? well don't you think that after a horrific lesson like that, the killing of civilians would be that last thing on the IDF's list of priorities? well it just so happens that this is not the case. there have been several allegations of IDF soldiers firing upon innocent civilians as they tried to escape from raids, and there are actual accounts of bombings of civilian infrastructure (the Al-Fakhura school for instance, was the target of Israeli artillery (which the UN reports to have killed 42 people, 41 of which were civilians) after the IDF reported militant fire coming from next to the school). retaliatory bombings are no means of solving the problem (and this is aimed at both sides here). bombing raids in Palestine create Hamas fighters from the friends and families of the dead. and Hamas fighters will in turn fight back by killing Israeli civilians. the wall needs to come down and the Palestinian people (not the Hamas fighters) need to have their safety insured or this vicious cycle of violence will not end. i know a wall must seem like a good idea to keep the Hamas fighters at bay, but all it is doing is alienating the Palestinian people and fueling their cause to fight. i hope that i have not offended you in any way, but i don't take too kindly to the idea of bombing for peace (which applies to both sides of the conflict). i leave you with a very apt word of wisdom.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" ~ Mahatma Gandhi (1869 -194

The wall is more like a fence for the majority of "the wall." It is only very high in a certain area along the Gaza border in order to protect the Israeli citizens from gunfire and other ammunitions being shot. Most of the wall is no taller than a few feet and is made from barbed wire that is electronically monitored. I have pictures of me standing by the wall and the media makes it out to be something that it is not. There are several images on Google that show the majority of the wall I am talking about. It is not some gargantuan monstrosity that the media often exaggerates.

Like I said before, it is difficult to minimize collateral damage when the Hamas operatives are mingling amongst innocent civilians. Israel has done all they can do in order to minimize casualties from sending warnings/letters dropped by helicopters over the area where the intervention is going to occur and running numerous ads on the radio and television. What more can they do? The bombings of vital infrastructure such as roads, bridges, electricity grids, etc, are all tactical measures. It can be seen two ways. The first, it can make the citizens resent Hamas and they can blame them for their hardships or it can spur Hamas’ popularity.

I am not fond of the ongoing wars in Afghanistan and Iraq to be honest with you. I do not support what they are doing there as no one really knows why they are there. It is sort of like another Vietnam all over again. A bunch of people are dead for an unknown reason/cause. However, I support the troops just not the mission. Israel on the other hand has a clear objective when they go in and there are issues with terrorism and extremists there as well as the constant threat of Arab nations that don’t recognize Israel.

the wall doesn't have to be large in size in order to be large in meaning. as far as the whole "collateral damage" thing goes, i see it as two options; there either are, or there aren't civilians killed. the former is unacceptable, regardless of whether or not the mission was completed because of it. i admittedly don't know why some civilians just wont leave their neighborhoods. perhaps they would rather die than give up, perhaps they just hope that their neighborhood won't be bombed if they don't leave. what i do know is that what the mainstream western media shows regarding the subject has a strong pro-Israeli bias (the US is of course on their side in this war, and when you have 5 or 6 major American corporations owning (or holding significant stock in) just about every media outlet you can think of, it's hard to find unbiased news. not to mention the widespread hatred of Arabs that followed the 9/11 attacks). i happen to know someone living in Israel currently, and she doesn't paint a picture quite as colourful as you when it comes to the conflict. don't get me wrong, i am disgusted when i hear of suicide bombings against Israel (or any nation for that matter). i think it is cowardly and doesn't accomplish anything for their cause, but i feel the same way when i hear of planes flying overhead and dropping bombs on Palestinian civilians. i don't understand how you seem to be okay with one nation bombing civilian infrastructure of another as long as it is in conquest, but when the conquered nation fights back, you refer to it as "terrorism". it seems terrorism only applies to those opposing the countries with the bigger guns these days. i agree with you on the Iraq/Afghanistan wars, but i fail to see how the missions are much different than those of Israel's. bomb away and hope you hit the bad guy seems to be the predominant strategy in all three wars. the IDF may have a clearer objective in your eyes, but their methods of achieving it are equally as messy.

I have several friends in the IDF in various units from the air force, navy, infantry, and paratroopers and I keep in very close contact with them. I also have friends from North America who decided to go to university in Israel and have lived there for years. I also have family that lives in Israel. Several years back, I was in Israel when the EntaFada broke out with several classmates and we were confined to bomb shelters. I have experienced the good times and the bad times in Israel. Everything from living through the wars to eating falafel on the street and going to the discothèque at night.

Not really. There is collateral damage from both sides. The only difference is that the Palestinians' is on purpose while Israel tries to minimize it with calculated air strikes and lots of warnings before anything happens so that civilians can get out of there. The way in which Hamas imbeds itself into the community and puts innocent civilians at risk is condoned by the United Nations. Furthermore, no legitimate governments recognize Hamas as a governing body including the UN. He keeps on saying that Israel took their land but they didn’t. The UN declared it the “Jewish Homeland” and the numerous wars between the Israelis and Palestinians since their independence has helped them obtain territory that was conquered when their existence was questioned. There are a lot of military victories for Israel that the Palestinians started. If you are going to war, you should be prepared to defend your country/land and if you don’t, you should be prepared to lose it. The pettiness of the Palestinians has made this situation ongoing. They lost their land fair and square in wars and they started ALL the wars! Sort of ironic that they can’t deal with the consequences of their actions…

i see. so Israel is minimizing civilian deaths with calculated air strikes using American made, 500lb Mark 82 fin-guided bombs (as well as other large laser-guided bombs), AGM114 Hellfire missiles, 20mm cannons, 155mm white phosphorus artillery shells,120mm tank shells, etc... i can see how it looks like they are doing everything they can to reduce collateral damage. i ask you this, where do you propose the Palestinians can go when they receive letters saying that their city will soon be reduced to smoldering rubble?
i'm not saying that i agree with Hamas (which Israel helped to bring to power by the way). what i'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter how you spin it, the IDF is killing hundreds of innocent, Palestinian people in retaliation for Hamas militants attacking Israel. Hamas may very well be a bunch of cowards hiding themselves in densely populated civilian areas, but what are the civilians going to do? they have the choice of trying to fight the Hamas militants who are armed with AK-47 assault rifles, or they can hope that the IDF won't bomb Hamas if there are civilians present. i can't imagine that Hamas would take to kindly to their human shields walking away, can you?
you seem to reference the UN alot. are you forgetting that the IDF shelled the UN Relief and Works Agency in Gaza City?
after WW2, the UN declared a specific area of Palestine to be the Jewish homeland as compensation for what they had gone through as a people - they didn't declare Palestine Israel's for the picking. would it be unfair of me to assume that you, or anyone, would fight for the land that you own? were the North American natives out of line fighting the European settlers? were African slaves out of line running away from their American masters? after all, they had been conquered, fair and square...

The Palestinians have several Arab countries that they could go to. There are a lot of predominantly or primarily Arab countries. However, there are no states like Israel for the Jewish people! Also, Israel is not the only country that is limiting the transportation and movement of people across its borders. Egypt DOES NOT want Palestinians from the Gaza Strip or from Israel as a whole coming over there and they have stationed their military to guard their border. Does this have something to do with the Palestinians in Israel? I think so! The Palestinians love war and bloodshed and hate peace and the westerners’ concept of democracy. Also, the other day, Hamas fired a rocket while numerous foreign affairs ministers/dignitaries from around the world were visiting. There is more than likely going to be an air strike because of this. Israel is provoked into everything it does. Its retaliations are justified as they aren’t the ones starting anything. They are just finishing it! The civilians can easily flee to other villages that aren’t receiving these letters of goodwill to get out of the area. They give them ample time too. It isn’t just minutes or hours either. It is days of warning! How much more time do you need? Before all the Jewish settlers arrived in Israel, it was just a desert. It had unfertile soil and was far from being what it is today. Through the hard work and determination of the Israeli pioneers, it is what it is today because of them and the people who stand behind Israel and defend the State of Israel.

don't blame the Palestinian people for Hamas's violence. Israel helped to create Hamas remember? it is unfair of you to say that all Palestinians are violent and hate peace.
by the way, if Jewish settlers came to Palestine (which was known as Canaan at the time, and was not civilized by the Jews, but rather the land of Canaan was ethnically diverse and was civilized by people of Arabic, Jewish, as well as Asiatic and Egyptian descent - the origin of early agrarian development in Canaan was sometime during the Neolithic Revolution around 10,000 BC - long before Judaism even existed), how can you, or anyone, be justified in saying that Palestine is rightfully the land of the Jewish settlers? is Canada the rightful land of the English and French settlers because we killed off the resisting natives? absolutely not.