Inside the Float X2 and CCDB Air - Video

 haha, that one might take me a week to film! Don't happen to have an MRP or an Ohlins fork kicking around the workshop right now either unfortunately.

 @VorsprungSuspension: Pike vs Fox36 then? keep up the good work

 id love to see stock dampers vs aftermarket like Avalanche.

 @VorsprungSuspension:


Awesome video!!!!

 I'm too drunk to view this and retain anyitng. but I am making a serious note to check this out in the morining and tke it serious

 what about - Avalanche vs DVO vs Fast Suspension vs Storia (Stendec) vs Push

 @VorsprungSuspension: What is your opinion on the DVO stuff, like the diamond fork and jade and topaz shock? Thanks in advance!

 @ktmrider173: there really isn't any way to comment on entire brands like that, sorry.

 @ktmrider173: i believe the emerald Fork is a bit to the heavy side, otherwise i have Avalanche cartridge on
Marzocchi chassis and i can tell you it outperforms any other fork on the market, i also got Fast suspension
cartridge on Boxxer chassis for my friend and believe or not its good as well !!

 @DragRider: im sure you have not ridden a properly setup Emerald or any DVO product for that matter if you are saying that, and everyone i know that has ridden a Pike and a DVO Diamond always sells their pike for a Diamond

 @ktmrider173 Give the Office a call and make an appointment to stop by, there all your questions will be answered.

 @finalgear: I love my Diamond, Jade and Topaz was just curious how their internals stacked up against the competition, did not intend to start a debate with it all.

 @finalgear: you dont need to sell your pike just upgrade with Avalanche cartridge and then you forget for expensive DVO , By the way i ve tried DVO and was heavy like my old 888, but performs very well no doubt, also im not keen on single crown forks as i ride DH only !!!

 @DragRider: The weight is not that bad.

 @ktmrider173: no worries and all the internals are of the highest quality.

 Great additions, thanks Rodrigo. I agree that the Climb Switch that CC have is the best pedaling platform out there - slow LSR is really, really good when you're seated as it stops you getting bounced up/forwards as the rear wheel rebounds after catching on larger obstacles when climbing.

I'm not entirely convinced increasing IFP charge actually reduces the amount of air ingested, I think it's quite likely that all it's doing is raising the saturation point of the oil (as per Henry's Law, liquids can dissolve certain amounts of air in them, directly proportional to the pressure they're under). However that does still mean it takes longer before the oil is noticeably aerated, so I suppose the net effect is similar, and as you say there's really no downside to increased IFP charge on those - we routinely do that too.

 Thanks Jesse! Good to know about the patent expiry too, maybe we'll start work on a TTXV shock now... haha. Also good to hear feedback on what people want too.

 CC is working on updating the dampers for all of the DB series plus some other stuff that will be amazing.....

 @speedy38racer: any confirmation on this anyone? Will this be new dampers or tweaks that can be added to the db? Hoping the later.

 @Jesse221: Yes I'm sure a company like Cane Creek after losing an engineer just decided, f*ck it, we're not replacing that guy and never updating or changing our products again.

 @Satanslittlehelper: well if you followed for a while they lost two their ccdb engineers one of them happening to be VP not "just some engineer" and the other their fluid flow dynamics engineer (not an easy engineering title). Also now that the twin tube patent is up anyone can use it (one of those engineers went to fox and surprise the x2 is now out, he is now at rockshox, think we may see some influence on a vivid 3? Now canecreek while a great company that is not a 100% suspension company has to compete with two giants that have probably more than 5x the Capitol to invest in R&D in a market that is becoming very saturated with products.

So could they decide to focus more on their hard goods and bread and butter items (headsets, hubs etc) where the r&d costs aren't as high and profits probably higher.

Don't get me wrong I love both my coil and air ccdb and that's why I worry that they will stay in it.

Just look already fox has three tunes for the same technology that cc always said they never needed more than one because the one can cover all bikes. But now you can have it more narrowed in right away for your bike leverage on the fox model also for some of the bikes that people could never get the ccdb to feel quiet right because the leverage was either too high or too low, now maybe there is a shock for them. So now possibly cc goes that route too and that means more parts more inventory more costs and that questions what happened to the one size fits all statement or do they stay the path?

It's an interesting time and a good time to be a consumer.

 I think you'll find the fluctuating cupcake valve is a lot less effective than the low speed excuse adjuster combined with the high speed bullshit barrel.

 Said they are slightly different but overal function is the same and on a dyno they appear even (so I'm assuming they have dyno tested both). The fix has a more modern air spring and an expected more reliable seal head, the ccdb gets in my opinion a better functioning climbing feature. Once you've tried climbing a technical rocky section with the slower rebound it would be hard to go back, I would probably even prefer the rebound over the compression if I could only choose one. As for the seal head I have had one go bad fairly early but my other two have been good and with annual service (like all shocks should have) it hasn't been a real issue.

So here is to hoping cc is watching and doing some work on their air spring and seal.

 Your shock should have a 4-digit code on the side of it. You can plug that into the Fox website (www.ridefox.com/help.php?m=bike&ref=topnav) and it'll tell you all the data on your shock. At some point it will say CF, CM or CL, those stand for Compression Firm, Compression Medium or Compression Light. I'd recommend erring on the lighter side if in doubt - they are firmly valved shocks.

 @VorsprungSuspension: how does their cl,cm,cf compare to ccdb on a dyno? Since cc only has one option be interesting to know where it falls in line with fox.

 Oh also while your answering questions what do you thinking about using the negative coil spring that cc has (I had the part number at one time), they use it on the Bronson ccdb air they offered last gen. Think it would help with the initial feel (like rock shocks vivid has).

 @Jesse221: One thing we don't divulge very readily is dyno data sorry!

Negative coil springs aren't great, unless you like that knocking noise near topout (especially the metal on metal of the Vivid!). Because their range of effect is finite they also don't have the benefit of increased mid stroke support.

 @VorsprungSuspension: Well apparently mine is "AM" ahahah
2016, FLOAT X2, F-S, K, HSC, LSC, HSR, LSR, FOX, AM, 10.500, 3.500, 0.3 Spacer x1

Most likely there's only 1 setting for 10.5x3.5 shocks...

 @Ploutre: AM means aftermarket as far as I'm aware. On a 10.5 shock though there's no reason you should be running anything firmer than the light tune though, every bike currently out there using that size shock has a very low leverage ratio.

 @VorsprungSuspension: curious as to why that is? They aren't dyno sheets of custom tunes done by you guys so what's the brig secret of what fox tune matches the ccdb or vise versa.

 @VorsprungSuspension: Oh ok, kind of stupid to label it as AM and not with the compression tune ...

And yes, low leverage, very progressive, lovin' it

 @Jesse221: There's no one Fox tune that matches the CCDB as such - both of them have a huge range of adjustment with some overlap in all regards. Actually matching curves on the dyno is a slower process than you might imagine, and when things involve that much expenditure of time and effort on our half, it's not something we share for free Essentially we are an information-based business - when people come to us for servicing/tuning/whatever, they're paying for what we know (and for that knowledge to be put into action to assist them). It's not in our best interests to be giving away that information - if people want it they can spend the time and money investing in the tools and training to measure it themselves.

On top of that, and perhaps more importantly - when we post up data like that (and we have once or twice in the past), people tend to take the ball and run with it, which leads to things like "Vorsprung said XYZ is better because of this dyne plot" being posted in various places, which usually means people without much understanding of what the damper curves mean are then incorrectly attributing commentary and opinions to us, and/or touting certain things as fact when they aren't. As someone who's spent far too much of my life on internet forums in years gone past, I am acutely aware of this

 @VorsprungSuspension: ah ok that makes more sense now. Sorry wasn't trying to start an argument was just looking more for how the fox 3 tunes compare vs ccdb 1 tune. Was more curious as to things like does the ccdb go as soft as a fox soft while at same time meeting the range of the fox firm etc etc. wasn't wanting the exact graphs or anything but your first statement of how they don't exactly match each other I guess answers that. Still interested how the same design has two different theories as ccdb claim to fame was always if you buy this shock you don't need a custom tune because it covers all ranges, and now the fox with the same/similar design tech has three tunes to match bike leverage rates.

Thanks for the info and yes a video of the traditional monotube vs twin tube as you mentioned in your other comment would be really cool as a follow up. Also the stance of shims vs spring loaded poppets as a few tuners swear that a properly tune shim will still beat a poppet as they claim the shim is more dynamic.

 @VorsprungSuspension:
The mechanical spring to assist the negative air spring was something Santa Cruz asked for specifically for the Bronson and the VPP suspension on that model.

The small coil spring is located in the hydraulics not in air chambers : it pushes directly on the IFP (Internal Floating Piston).
Why using a spring instead of increasing pressure ? Is there a seal limitation ?

So it is not really a negative spring.
What are the benefits and drawbacks of such spring ?

Is rubber blader a best option ?

 @zapats: where did you get that info? I was told it’s behind the seal head with a different seal head part number (that I was given back when it was on the Bronson 1). Which would make it like the RockShox spring (having brain fart on the name). I can’t see any point at all to put the spring on the IFP.

 Has to do with the design of the monotube and how it's high speeds are controlled through shim stacks which can't be changed without dissassembly. You can tweak the high speed to a certain amount while loading the shims going to the reservoir but still the bulk of the damping is being done on the main piston as only a marginal amount of oil is going through the external adjusters through the bridge. On a twin tube almost all the oil is flowing through the external adjusters and on the high speed rebound side the oil is flowing throw the adjuster. That probably just made thing more confusing but it's hard to show without out a drawing. There used to be an illustration of a monotube vs twin tube on cc site that clears it up much more.

 @Jesse221: What you say is largely correct, but the same limitations apply to monotube adjusters as twin-tube adjusters insofar as how the adjuster actually functions (i.e. a poppet valve or a preloaded shim stack or whatever). Twin tube dampers pose a few other differences - this might be something worth covering in a future video

 referencing the DU bushings, you can hone the eyelets out and replace the stock DU bushings with RWC needle bearings, i dont reccommend this for everyone but for those with the skills to perform the job properly it is a beneficial upgrade.

 @whitebullit: can I mail you my new DBCoilCS and my AirCS for these upgrades!?!?

 @Waldon83: If he doesn't want to, we've been doing that for a while now... makes life much easier when you can use standard size DUs (or other hardware designed for that size). One thing we didn't mention in that video is that the DB Norglide bushings aren't great - they are fairly low friction but they wear out quick and are expensive.

 Well I can say the difference is massive between a standard 888 evo rc3 damper and an avalanche one.
Full rebound shim stack on Avey - single washer on 888
Mid valve shim stack and blow off on Avey - non on 888
More compression shims on Avey high speed plus blow off option- 5 shims and no blow off on 888
Oil lock anti bottom on Avey, non on 888
Full setup charts for all shims/blow offs on Avey.. used the force on the 888..

 @bat-fastard: As Im i avid Avalanche owner i will tell you to stop advertising it, otherwise people will jump over it
and it will get too commercial (kidding) NO JOKE i strongly recommend Ava or Fast, cartridge to everyone
so far haven't seen any better.....

 Ha, good to know!

 We don't make a sleeve for the X2, only for the Float line (CTD, DPS, RP etc). We don't "work only on Fox products" either - we don't produce air sleeves for Cane Creek for a few reasons, but they are only related to the design constraints of the shocks themselves.

 If you're having issues with bottoming too easily or blowing through the end of the travel, try adding volume spacers. If it's mid-stroke control you're after, you can try adding 1-2 clicks each of LSC and HSC for a bit more support, or simply bumping the pressure up a little (may require removal of volume spacers if you find it too hard to use full travel later).

 @VorsprungSuspension: Steve, first off nice video. We have ran one of your Vorsprung air can oem fox shocks, a ccdb air cs, a fox x2 and and ohlins ttx22 all on specialized Enduro's! The oem shock with your modified air can worked but my son kept bending shims. The canecreek ran out of adjustments (revalved?). The X2 has blown a seal between the damper and air can. The ohlins Spring shock is wonderfull. What is your take on ohlins shocks?

 @MX298: if you have an Ohlins shock and love it then you don't need to hear it from us!

 @VorsprungSuspension: not happy with Ohlinsusa service though. . . . . . . Maybe a deal breaker! ! !

 Not as yet. There are clearance issues if you were to make the air can any larger at all, as mentioned in the video.

 @VorsprungSuspension: I believe the one in your video was the bigger XV can

 @speedy38racer: That's correct, however the standard volume one (which seems quite uncommon nowadays) has less than 1mm of additional radial clearance.

 Oh you would know right away. Try sitting on your bike and cycle the shock a few times. You will hear a very audible sloshing / squishing sound like oil and air have mixed together... Technically you can still use it but very soon you'll start to notice things like your shock feeling dead and/or losing its pop on jumps, etc...

I have the same issue now and it sucks because it's expensive to have the CC DB Air serviced, not a lot who do it, and i don't have the tools to do it myself.

 As @Magabal said, you'll be able to hear a squishy noise by the time it's bad enough to be a problem.

 Cat skinning machines?

 Haven't heard of that one at all sorry.

 Yes. I had one. They apparently had a batch that got a bad heat treatment. Swelled up like it was pregnant. Stopped riding before it popped.

 hahah, rumour has it...

 The Mission Control dampers in the Boxxer offered that (although not single crown). Only problem was that the dampers weren't very refined at all, nor were the adjusters.

 Maybe

 @VorsprungSuspension: very interested. Love the bike but a little disappointed in the suspension (coming off a 2012 devinci Dixon with the ccdb inline and a pike rct3) shoot me a message if and or when something is available!

 @allenfstar: vorsprungsuspension.com/products/vorsprung-corset-air-sleeve

 @DragRider: does that work with the new evol shock though?

 @allenfstar: They work for standard Evol-equipped shocks but not the Trek-specific Evol shocks yet (well, the standard 7.875 SV sleeves do actually physically seal up and work, but the sleeve bottoms out on the wrong part and leaves a ~1mm gap that shouldn't be there - we have test riders on them right now).