Vorsprung Suspension Releases the Corset Air Sleeve - Press Release

 I was about to say, this would have been perfect for my CTD, if I didn't already sell it and buy a CCDB Air CS. This sleeve would have saved me some money

 Most importantly for me they actually make one for a 8.5x2.125!!!!

 - Livelier, more predictable feel
- No more wallowy midstroke
sounds like solution to all my life problems...

Did somebody mention they look awsome?

 Just ordered for my Solo, dobbing on pinkbike if its bad.

 @Waldon83 i think you still made a pretty good choice. This solves a minor issue with spring rate feel, and not the major problem which is the CTD damper.

 Fox makes a great rear shock, even the CTD ones, sorry.

Their CTD forks (namely the '13's): that's a whole other story.

I am intrigued by this and I too am going to have to try it.

 For $100, I'm in. For $150, I don't know, really have to give it some thought.

 ok, I'm in !

 @robaussie99 just won at Pinkbike with this statement.

 Aziz (Z-man), of OGC: first, please get your facts straight, because none of the claims you've made are true. Secondly, very professional of a Fox representative to be publicly calling people who are supporting, servicing and improving on Fox components unintelligent. If you have any issues, please feel free to contact me personally on steve at vorsprungsuspension.com.

 Steve tried to sue SRAM? Sounds like an April fools joke

 Z-man, what were you thinking, or were you thinking at all?

 @z-man more importantly the fact that it is possible for an operation the size of Vorsprung to actually be able to improve on the product created by a company worth "billions of dollars" begs the question who the "dumb" one really is.....??

 Definitely smarter than me. I am getting a Mach 6 with a Float X. I think it would improve small bump compliance with the first part of the stroke, but I wonder if it would make it too squishy in the mid stroke on climbs. Thoughts?

 Seems simple really. Fox ctd and other Fox shocks are bad out of the box. Good on Vorsprung for recognizing the large market for improvements. It's too bad Fox doesn't realize this and make a better product. But what do I care lol Marzocchi wins.

 @Delphinide, it actually firms up the mid stroke relative to the early stroke in terms of actual movement and deviation from the sag point. If you have an especially slack seat tube angle on your frame you may find that the extra sag is not your friend on the kind of steep tech climbs where your front wheel is pawing at the sky though, although you do always have the option of running higher pressure/less sag, and increasing the positive chamber volume.

 Z-man, that is the exact train of thought that hinders development. The fact is, even the highest end products often have flaws - either due to cost / production constraints, or a sheer lack of technical optimisation knowledge. Just because you have a billion dollar company, doesn't mean you have the world's most passionate engineers or the world's best products. It just means you're running a successful business operation.

Steve is one of the most passionate and capable engineers I've met, with in my honest opinion, a level of attention to technical detail that would be beneficial (read: offer improvement) in the highest end companies. It just so happens that he chose to start his own business instead of working for someone so that he can do things 100% his way. If he releases a product, I can almost guarantee that it a) does what it claims, and b) isn't a marketing stunt.

 Just for that asinine comment Z-man, I'm going to buy one.

 Is this working like a SRAM Debonnair air can ?
Seems to be the same principle. Maybe an explanation to Steve sueing SRAM ?
We didn't see anymore pictures of float X with the same "corset" or "Debonnair" style air sleeve.
Does Vorsprung have patented their sleeve ?
Does this explain the animosity of fox and SRAM representative on Steve ?

 Would the same be true just opposite with a normal fox just put a little less air and boom better small bump sensitivity I dont know about you but thats the way my 5.0 works

 @z-man, even a company worth "billions" still apparently cant figure out how to make brakes or how to ship forks with the proper amount of oil in them..go figure

 @justinhodgson hahaha! i think you just won the internet. And i agree!

 Dude if you are truly a Fox representative you should be fired! Lol.

 Bingo..!!

 @WillCoates, fair call, however units aren't on there for two reasons:
1. The air pressure you run scales everything up or down. Units were provided on the spring rate graph simply to illustrate the difference in initial spring rate that you can see between stock & Corset sleeves on a numerical level that people can relate to.
2. There are several stroke lengths that this could apply to, so saying force is Y at X travel is a bit pointless given that it'd just be at an arbitrary pressure and could be any of several actual positions!

 Steve is probably one of the very few people I'd actually trust a graph from. He's a qualified Mechanical Engineer, and is one of the few I've met that can actually apply the technical knowledge to reverse engineering and improving products successfully. As he points out, the scale on that particular graph varies depending on things like the average leverage ratio of the frame you run and thus the pressure you run, but the general shape of the curve will remain similar - which is why it has no units.

 It's all to do with the ratios and volumes of positive and negative chambers, and where they equalise. By manipulating those values, we can change the rate at which the negative spring pressure drops early in the travel, which is what controls the early stroke and is really the defining point of these sleeves. It doesn't affect the damping - that is completely separate.

 @VorsprungSuspension How does this effect shocks that have been Pushed or Avalanched?

 Push and Avalanche, to the best of my knowledge, only work with the dampers (plus larger internal bottom out bumpers on some shocks). Since this is only an alteration to the spring system, not the damper, it will work fine in parallel.

 corvus1 -
In layman terms, if you compare a coil shock and air shock on the same frame, you'll notice the air shock is much harder to move at the start (amongst a host of other issues), which is a result of the non-linearity of the air spring compared to a coil spring. It results in poorer traction and bump absorption as well as wallowing in the midstroke compared to a linear spring. What Vorsprung's product does is corrects this problem at the spring level. The damper is a different level and you can't correct this problem with damping, which is why they have redesigned the air spring (which is not actually a simple empty sleeve, and has two chambers that have varying pressures and volumes as the shock moves - thus is fairly complex in its behaviour).

 Just what I wanted to hear! I also have a SB66. Was there an improvement to the small bump compliance or the harsh beginning stroke?

Ping @AZKyle

 Hi MtbTico, yep, big improvement to the small bump compliance (I actually have small bump compliance now) and the beginning stroke is buttery smooth.

 Just to confirm, you're running a CTD rp23? Or float x? On the sb66

 Sorry, should have mentioned that. Running a CTD rp23.

 Thanks themegawatt! I also have a Float CTD and considering your feedback, I'll probably pull the trigger on a Corset! Cheers!

 Got any photos of you testing it?

 sounds sick , and is exactly what i need for my fox rp23 as well. great idea vorsprung

 would definitely buy one

 depending on what model you have, you can throw some off set bushings and put a CCDB air on it. thats what i plan to do with my fuel.. i do not care for drcv, its okay until i start to get off the ground.. then its bottom out city..

 RockShox has started to make the monarch debonair to fit my slash, but this option is much cheaper and I am a huge fan of coil shocks and how they feel. Not sure if I can fit a CCDB air on the 2014 slash with minimal clearance of the seat tube.

 it fits:
i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODk4WDE2MDA=/z/thEAAOSwRLZT7cTe/$_57.JPG

not a fan of RS stuff, different strokes for different folks.

 Noted, thanks guys - anyone else keen on DRCV cans?

 +11111 on the DRCV!!! @VorsprungSuspension

 Hell yea. I'll be trying out the push volume spacers soon but if this was available for DRCV I would definitely do it

 @Ajax-Rider - Don't bother with the Push spacers, the impact is too minimal to be worth it. You'll still be bottoming out all the time. I was disappointed with the Push spacers for my 2014 Slash.

This looks like a fresh idea to help all of us with DRCV's, without spending the cash on the Debonair. Thanks @VorsprungSuspension !

 i def. agree with @oldenglish , the smaller of the two spacers barely helped. it still bottoms like crazy once you get the rubber off the ground. the bigger spacer essentially turned my trail bike into a hard tail... i couldnt get it to work..

 +1 for the DRCV

 i need ine for my dhx 5 air dh , make the important ones :p

 @wuzupjosh what length is your DHX Air? If it's an 8.50 x 2.50 or smaller, these will fit.

 Put me down for one!

 @nhmtnrider if you're a big fan of coil, why not simply get a coil? It seems more sensible than throwing good money after bad to make an air shock less shit

 9.5 x 3 sir .....

 @jaame trek uses proprietary mounting points with trek-specific dimensions, a coil shock wouldn't fit correctly without offset bushings. Also, the shock is positioned so close to the seat tube that I'm unsure if theres enough clearance for a coil to fit.

 @NHmtnrider it fits, see my comment above.

edit:
my b, that is with a CCDB air, although i believe i have seen them with coil shocks.

 @NHmtnrider coils will totally fit on Trek's. I've had them on my Remedy, lots of folks put them on the slash. Just need to customize the top spacers. small frames have some issues clearing a reservoir though.

 Shocks aren't cheap so I like the relatively low cost of an aftermarket sleeve in general. Add in that there aren't many shocks available as a direct fit for those with DRCV and this seems like a pretty logical route to go, if it was an option. I'll take one for my 650b Remedy (7.75x2.25") once production is completed.

 +1 would buy for my DRCV shock

 @mattsavage Im not sure a coil will fit on the 2014s because the clearance of the seat tube is narrower than the preceding slashes

 Understood, thanks

 Is a DRCV upgrade in the works? Holy Moly!

 @NHmtnrider oh, you're right... forgot they changed the seattube on those new fangled 650b bikes... In my mind I was thinking pre '14... nevermind.

 please make one for 9.5 x3.0 dhx air :s deffinate +1 for that @VorsprungSuspension

 @VorsprungSuspension any word on DRCV cans...? Need one for my '13 Slash!

 Good to hear some appreciation from someone else who knows a lot about suspension, thanks! Unfortunately that's information I can't provide, as it is pretty much the key piece of data that dictates the spring curve. Sign an NDA and maybe I'll share it with you in person. You may also be interested to know that this product's development stemmed from a discussion on MTBR almost 3 years ago, that I think you may have been involved in!

 Interesting. I wasnt looking for exact numbers, just that the dimple is placed somewhere other than near full extension allowing for higher negative pressure than positive. Its great that companies like yours are stepping up to make products like this. Helps to keep progressing forward.

 You're correct in your interpretation there. Essentially we're changing the negative chamber function to be more of an actual negative spring and less of just a pneumatic topout device.

 This is not "Fixing it" but rather modifying it to better suit the rider's interest/riding style. There are a lot of folks that are happy with their standard Fox shock/fork.

 Keep in mind that this isn't the first product that Vorsprung has come up with to improve fox products. Their replacement units for fox 34 ctd forks are epic as well!

 Fox just needs more custom stuff to work with people's tastes than Cane Creek for example. Or than even RS. There is a reason push can be fox specific and still make a killing.

 I think there's such an interest in this because the RP and now CTD line is still super popular on long travel trail/ AM bikes with more travel than the units were designed for, I suspect that a lot of their business will be from people with 130+mm travel bikes.

 It's not that Fox stuff sucks, in fact it's quite the opposite - Fox stuff is good enough that it's WORTH perfecting (ok, nothing is perfect, let's try "improving"). Their air shocks were, for over a decade, completely untouched in performance/weight, and it's only recently that anyone's come up with real competition. Nobody makes upgrade parts or tuning systems for say a Rockshox XC30 fork (not trying to pick on RS here btw, just using this model as an example), because it's a $250, absolute entry-level fork, and to get a world-class level of performance out of it would involve replacing pretty much everything. Us aftermarket tuners have it easy in that regard - we can look at a complete product and identify its weaknesses, then improve on those without having to invest the huge R&D that goes into building a complete shock or fork. In the case of Fox products, as a general rule they're actually very good - we just look for ways that we can improve things. Sometimes that's as simple as replacing a single seal with a better one, other times it's a fairly complex assembly.

 ummmm.... the first line of your little bio says that air shocks are terrible?

 The tune that the manufacturer specifies refers primarily to the damper, and in some cases may also reflect the stock volume spacer that comes inside the shock. The volume spacer is easily exchanged by the end user, however the damper tune remains unaffected, and should not need alteration.

 Did you use any volume spacers?

 It really depends on the leverage of your frame. A high leverage frame + heavy rider may result in you having to run a pressure beyond the 300psi rating of the seals, which as I mentioned somewhere else on the page, would be at your own risk - the can itself won't fail but the seals or eyelet may. If you're running over 250psi on your current setup then I would say it's quite likely that you'll end up running over 300psi with the Corset.

 Thanks

 looks like it, should be great for the car park bouncy test, sod all different on the trail, worse if you've all ready fitted a spacer to your air can. is it a bigger can? looks like it?

 I'm guessing the difference comes down to the negative spring being better designed.

 Arnoodles is correct. Net spring force at any point in the travel is a function of positive pressure minus negative pressure - in the early stroke, it's the drop in negative pressure that causes the increase in overall spring force.

 @VorsprungSuspension how are you modifying negative spring? I thought modification of the negative spring required more work than swapping an air can. Do you have any IP around your mods/design.
I have bike with a DRCV shock, and a spare shock lying around, and am interested in trying this out....Keep up the good work.

 Good stuff Vorsprung!

 Also, does it use standard FOX float seal kit?

 @the-vault, the modification can be seen in the photos if you know what you're looking for

@turtlesauce2000, yes it does. We tried to make it as simple and user-friendly as possible, so it is compatible with a standard Fox seal kit for serviceability.

 I call that good engineering!

 sneaky..good stuff guys.

 That's not true - think about how many times your wheel leaves the ground when popping over small obstacles or gapping small sections of terrain. Even riding over deeper ruts or holes will push the rear suspension into the region of travel where air shocks present a lot of harshness, and in any of these scenarios, you are losing traction and transferring more bump force (than ideal) to the rider - meaning the bike is less predictable and has less grip. The reality is that the entire spring curve is important and affects performance, not just the sag region.

 The explanation seems pretty thorough to me...

 The big advantage of this sleeve is in the start of the stroke. When most people use the word "linear" they are usually referring to a reduced end-stroke ramp up. Because of the more linear overall nature of this spring (start to end) you have more of a usable range of sag before the thing gets harsh or excessively wallowy, which somewhat reduces the dependence on volume spacers to get the end stroke volume right - however that is also an option and we will have those for sale with the air cans very shortly.

 The big improvement on the Nomad is the softer initial stroke and better supported mid-stroke. The improvement is substantial.

 would the bronson benefit similarly? cheers!

 @robnow, if you read the aritcle, you would discover that there is little change for the end stroke, the modifications are all to help the beginning stroke.

 @xy9ine yes it will!

 These should fit the drcv. Add the push mod and they should almost be good enough.

 They are not yet DRCV compatible - please don't try to mount one. Noted though!

 Any company honestly passing on a sale is one I can believe in!

Would this work for the spring curve of a Rocky Mtn Altitude?

 I was not aware the air can was any different on my drcv from my other float. I was actually considering trying a swap. Is it a diameter issue or is there something else that gets in the way?

 The dimensions aren't the same - the part threaded into the eyelet (hidden from view) is different. Please don't try to mount one, it will not work!

 Thanks for the info. I won't swap them.

 Noted! Anyone else?

 Yes! DRCV - gotta do it. My Trek Slash is begging you!

 +1 on the DRCV for my 2012 Slash.

 Yes, please.

 Absolutely - this was first developed on a 66C with excellent results!

 change position of stroke where the positive and negative air springs equalize means the first part of the suspension movement moves. because the stroke moves easier you need more pressure to keep the same sag, this greater pressure means you ramp up at the end of stroke (I think but probably wrong). Debonair does it at 15%, my db inline does it at 20% I think

 It replaces the existing air sleeve, there is no addition per se - you have exactly the same number of moving parts that you did before, with the same number of seals.

 ahhhh this makes more sense now, was pretty tired when I first looked at the article. I will have to get one of these for my 2013 Spesh enduro.

 You are basically on the money there - more active early stroke, less feeling like you're blowing through the middle too easily.

 I wouldn't necessarily say they "got everything else right" but in our eyes this was the aspect with the biggest potential for improvement, given the intention of the shocks. CTD/Propedal are platform systems designed to improve pedalling efficiency when switched on. They aren't quite as open or tunable as a DH damper, but the Float X is a big step in that direction. A lot of what you're describing sounds a lot like spring issues - inadequate mid-stroke support and excessive stiffness near the start of the stroke. This helps in those areas. Will it make your RP23 into an RC4? No. We could tell you it gives you a shock that performs like a DH bike on the descents, climbs like a trials motorbike, weighs five grams and will ensure your first born doesn't have congenital defects, but the reality is that it is simply a distinct improvement on what we perceive to be two of the biggest issues with the performance of these shocks. With all that said, Float CTD/RP23s and Float X's still aren't for everyone - if you prioritise external tunability, for example, or you just flat out want a DH shock, then there are better options out there, although in our opinion there is room for substantial improvement in some way for every product on the market. Even with a Corset, for example, I wouldn't personally run an RP23 or Float X on a dedicated DH bike, the dampers don't deal with heat anywhere near as well as a bigger shock.

 Thanks for the input - I've had experience with a variety of propedal shocks and personally owned a dhx 5 air, it was just crap, after a few minutes of descent it just gave up on damping rebound, and always slammed through its travel on jumps even with max pressure in both chambers and minimum reservoir air volume, my experience with other propedal float rp series has been similar and I've found they have no square edge performance and inconsistent damping... Crazy considering I had an old vanilla rc coil back in the day which was awesome and super consistent. Sounds like you've made a good band aid for a bad product

 There's no units on the force vs displacement graph because it can be scaled up and down by changing the air pressure, but the shape of the curves don't change. There are units on the other graph so that people can visualise exactly how big the difference in spring rate change is.

 Sorry i meant some maker of some kind not necessarily the units. So how about percent?
It would just be nice to see markers or grid lines to better focus us on how far along in the displacement the inflection points and other interesting elements of the curve are.

 Basically, we took a stab at the sizes we thought would be most popular off the bat, but you're right that shorter travel applications will benefit too. Anyone else running 6.5x1.5s that would be interested?

 Yup, 6.5" x 1.5" on 3 different bikes here and interested.

 Add me to the list

 Another 6.5" request, and I have 3 like-minded xc friends off the top of my head that would order one too.

 I would definitely like a 6,5" x 1,5 canister/air-sleeve

 @VorsprungSuspension Any word on a 6.5x1.5 option?

 This is a cheaper alternative and probably works better than what RS puts out.

 LOL

 There is

 We sure have. @rossdunlop was our test pilot, gave very positive feedback!

 Hi, I've just fitted one to mine this week, fits no problem! be prepared for the bike to sit a little lower in it's travel though, it's nearly impossible to make the dynalevel now line up (i've gone up from 180psi on the CTD sleeve to nearly 250psi on the Corset sleeve...) The shock defiantly performs better though, much better small bump compliance, a firmer coil like platform when descending. I have also completely removed the air spacer.

 Noted - if we get enough demand we'll make any size. Anyone else looking for that size?

 I read the instructions, start with 25% more psi. 240 psi should ride a fair bit different.

 25% higher pressure is a starting point and will depend on frames. Some people only run 10% more, some people are as much as 30% higher - the spring curve is completely different from the standard unit at any given pressure so directly comparing the two is a bit pointless.

 How so? I would take one of these cans for my CCDBA in a heartbeat.

 I rode a ccdb air on my covert in back to back runs with Steve 's corset on my float x. Let's just say I wasn't very impressed by the cane creek.

 The Cane Creek actually has one of the worst air spring curves I've ridden (very high initial rate = poor sensitivity compared to coil shock), if Vorsprung ever makes these cans for CC it would be a very noticeable upgrade.

 you must have ridden a completely fucked or poorly set up shock then. that's not how I would describe mine at all

 poah, it's not the shock set-up but the air spring curve. it's hella higher at the beginning like uuuu said. Most air shox have this sensation. That's why Vorsprung is making this product. DUH!

 If the cane creek unit is not set up correctly for the bike, rider, trail then it will feel crap therefore comparing it to the float unit is a poor test. the DB inline is pretty close to the push tuned van RC I had and the DB air is significantly better than a CTD or RP23. The CC units don't need this aftermarket sleeve because they already know how to make a decent shock

 @rossdunlop
How did you find it on the covert? seriously considering getting one for the float x on mine

 According to the website they do make one for the SJ.

 These are Stumpy compatible!

 Is it compatible with 2015 Enduro 650b?

 That was a typo sorry - 7.25 x 1.75 is covered!

 Sorry, that was a typo - it should say 7.25 x 1.75"!

 Sounds good but not listed on your site for sale?

 Sorry, should be corrected now!

 It says 7.5 x 1.75/2.0 in the webshop.

 No, it really isn;t. Until you've ridden on a better shock, you won;t understand how vile the RP23 really is

 Rp23 cannot compare to somthing like the monarch

 Ships worldwide check the web shop www.vorsprungsuspension.com/collections/all

 I see. Was hoping for a UK dealer just if anything went wrong i wouldn't have to send it back across the pond. Cheers anyhu

 It replaces the Autosag air can completely, so no issues there

 What about Fox/Specialized auto sag shock with Brain?
2012 stumpjumper.

Even if it does work, is it advisable to work on a Brain shock at home? I've been told Brain shocks have to go back to the factory when work is needed.

 would love to know if it works with the Brain shock, this will hopefully get rid of that "trap door opening" feeling it sometimes has...

 Fancy pants name? LOL What's fancy about it? I think it's probably a reference to the general shape of the can...

 We were originally going to name it the Penis... because it's bigger and blacker. However our initial hypothesis that our mostly male target market would pay good money to say they'd switched to riding a Penis and that it was a massive improvement turned out to be a phallusy.

Seriously though, gtrguy is on the money

 And who cares about the name anyway? If it does want it's supposed to do, then count me in!

@VorsprungSuspension Can I custom order one that says "bigger and blacker" on the side?

 Noted!

 @VorsprungSuspension: thanks Steve! Finally got my drcv corset this morning. Steve was quick to answer a few questions I had. The quality is top notch. Installing today and will be riding with it all weekend. Can't wait.