Ragley Bikes is a British bicycle brand that first launched in 2008 with a range of hardtails, but after a brief absence, they're back with a line of completely redesigned bikes, including the Blue Pig tested here. The original brief for the Blue Pig - designed by Brant Richards of On-One fame - was for a hard-hitting steel frame with a long-travel fork, the sort of hardcore hardtail that plays really well on UK trails and with British mountain bikers.
That design philosophy continues, but the geometry has been brought right up to date, and there are a number of other changes as well. The biggest one, of course, is the transition to 27.5" wheels, which has largely become standard in mountain biking. The new Trail Geometry (that's what Ragley calls it) reflects the changing nature of modern trail mountain bikes, namely full-suspension models, with a (static) 64-degree head angle when combined with a 150mm travel fork. The idea has been to provide the handling, poise and fit of a modern trail full suspension bike, albeit without the rear suspension.
Ragley Blue Pig Details • Intended use: trail / all-mountain
• Rear-wheel travel: none
• Wheel size: 27.5"
• Head angle: 64° static / 66° dynamic
• Triple butted steel frame
• Shimano SLX / XT drivetrain
• Fork: Manitou Mattoc Comp 150mm
• Weight: 31.4lb / 14.2kg
• MSRP: £1,499.99 / $2,000 USD complete bike or £449.99 / $550 USD frame only
• Contact:
Ragley Bikes /
@ragley-bikes The Ragley range also includes the Piglet (a diluted Blue Pig with a 130mm fork); the MmmBop, an aluminum version of the Blue Pig; the BigWig 29er and an entry-level aluminum hardtail dubbed The Marley. The Blue Pig is available as a frame-only (£449.99) with four sizes to choose from (XS-L) or the complete bike I’ve been testing, which costs £1,499.99 and gets you a build kit consisting of a Manitou Mattoc Comp fork, Shimano SLX and XT transmission and brakes, Nukeproof OKLO Air 125mm dropper post and WTB Trail Boss/Vigilante tyres on WTB/Novatec wheels.
Frame Design With the light weight and stiffness benefits of more advanced materials like aluminum and carbon fiber, you’d think steel frames would have gone the way of the dinosaurs a long time ago. But the fact is, steel is still a bloody good material to build a bicycle frame from, and the Ragley Blue Pig is proof of this. The frame is constructed from triple butted custom shaped 4130 chromoly steel, nothing fancy, but it’s well put together with some nicely executed details. It retains the three-finger bridge from the previous version of the Blue Pig frame, which maximizes clearance around the rear wheel for mud clearance, a nod to its British roots, and there are plenty of additional bracing tubes where they're needed, including the curved top between the top tube and seat tube.
The frame wears a 44mm head tube for stiffness up front, and skinny rear stays out back, which along with the natural give that steel provides, do a good job of removing any harshness that might otherwise spoil the ride. It's no magic carpet ride of course, but it's not as rough or jarring as you might imagine. Certainly, coming from a full-suspension bike might require a short period of adjustment.
Pointing towards the aggressive riding this bike is intended for is the reinforced down tube/head tube junction, radically sloped top tube to provide loads of clearance and stealth dropper post hose routing. The rear dropouts are interchangeable, allowing riders to choose between either a quick release or 12x142mm thru-axle configuration. There are also ISCG 05 tabs so you could easily slap on a chain guide too. And in case you do take up the Blue Pig on its hard-hitting potential, the frame comes with a five-year warranty and lifetime crash replacement policy, which provides a bit of peace of mind. Oh, and I just love the head badge too, better than a cheap sticker.
Geometry / Specifications
Specifications
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Release Date
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2015 |
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Price
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$2248 |
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Rear Shock |
None |
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Fork |
Manitou Mattoc Comp with TPC Damping + Doardo Air Spring, 150mm Travel, 15mm Thru-Axle, Tapered Steerer |
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Headset |
FSA No. 9 - Sealed bearing |
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Cassette |
Shimano HG-50, 11-36T |
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Crankarms |
Shimano M677 SLX 2x, 175mm, 38x24T |
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Chainguide |
None |
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Bottom Bracket |
Shimano |
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Pedals |
None |
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Rear Derailleur |
Shimano XT M786 10Spd Shadow Plus |
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Chain |
Shimano HG-54 |
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Front Derailleur |
Shimano Deore M616 Down-Swing 2Spd |
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Shifter Pods |
Shimano SLX M670 2x 10 Spd |
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Handlebar |
Ragley Wiser Riser Bars - 760mm Wide, 25mm Rise |
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Stem |
Ragley Stubbing Stem - 50mm Reach, 0 Deg Rise |
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Grips |
Ragley Single Lock On |
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Brakes |
Shimano SLX M675 180mm |
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Hubs |
Novatec hubs |
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Rim |
WTB STI23, TCS, 27.5”, 32 Hole rim |
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Tires |
WTB Vigilante TCS 2.3 / WTB Trail Boss TCS 2.25 |
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Seat |
Ragley Tracker |
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Seatpost |
Nukeproof OKLO AIR, 125mm Travel |
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| |
Climbing/Handling Ragley says the geometry of the Blue Pig has been intended to provide “better control” and “improved stability,” and these traits were very clear from the first ride on the Blue Pig. It took very little adjustment from the 150mm full suspension bike I had previously been riding to adapt to the Blue Pig, and I felt right at home, both with the geometry and the fit of the size large, for my 5’11” height.
You’d probably write-off the Blue Pig at first glance for lacking any climbing prowess, what with its long-travel fork and slack head angle, but it was surprisingly well mannered on the climbs, although its 31.4lb (14.2kg) weight does keep it from breaking any hill climb records - it’s definitely more of ‘winch to the top, enjoy the descents’ sort of bike. I found myself spinning quite happily up climbs, from long drags to steep and technical ascents, where the 2x10 drivetrain was welcome to overcome the high weight. Scaling steep technical climbs on a hardtail, without any rear suspension to soak up the bumps and provide traction, is more of a challenge, but the WTB tyres put down a load of traction and the Blue Pig’s stability kept the tires planted on all but the most treacherous climb. The rear WTB tire coped in most mud situations and only struggled in the most claggiest of gloop. I used the Blue Pig for everything from weekday night rides to longer cross-country jaunts to sessioning downhill tracks, and this variety of riding really highlighted just how well the Blue Pig can turn its hand to any sort of riding. I could live with this bike quite happily, because, even coming from a full-suspension rig, there was little compromise. It was a lot of fun.
The combination of the wheelbase length and slack head angle meant the Blue Pig was resolutely stable over rough terrain. It isn’t easily unnerved when dropping into rooty descents, with the tires finding loads of grip and the Manitou fork staying on point. While line choice is always more critical on a hardtail, the Ragley does allow you to be less fussy and can, to a degree, straight-line tricky obstacles. It definitely gives you more confidence when the going gets rough compared to a cross-country race hardtail with a low front end and short travel fork. Comfort over longer distances benefits from the compliance in the frame and the low slung top tube provided loads of clearance for moving the bike around through the corners when carving switchbacks. It probably wouldn't be my first choice if distance and speed were high on the list, but if you're not in a rush to get to the top and not worried about your average speed, the Blue Pig is a compelling choice.
Descending While climbing isn’t the Blue Pig’s forte, descending definitely is. Going down rough tracks at speed is clearly the designers had in mind when penning the new Blue Pig. It's so planted and stable at speed, and the geometry instills huge confidence and lets you tackle the sort of trails that you might normally shy away from on a hardtail. I definitely rode familiar trails faster on this bike than any other hardtail I've ridden in recent years. I reckon it's probably faster than some cross-country full-sussers too, and I wasn't expecting to write those words in a review about a steel hardtail.
High-speed stability, whether dropping into steep rooty trails or carving through flat-out fast berms is a joyous experience on the Blue Pig. There’s a surprising accuracy from the frame and it never felt like it was twisting or squirming under high loads. It doesn’t noticeably deflect under heavy landings or through fast corners, and the beefy front-end ensured the fork kept tracking accurately. While you can get down tracks pretty swiftly if you just hang back and let the Blue Pig loose, it suits a rider that is prepared to really take charge, for it needs a bit of weight over the front wheel to really get the fork to work at its best and get the front wheel tucked neatly into corners.
While you certainly can’t take the same liberties that you can on a full-suspension bike, it’s surprising just how fast and hard you can ride the Blue Pig. Line choice is a bit more critical; a hardtail challenges you to read the terrain to pick a smoother line, but to some extent the Blue Pig can just batter its way through a tangle of roots or garden of rocks. Get the weight over the bars and work the fork and let the rear wheel rattle and skip through afterwards. It might not be the fastest bike against the clock, but that’s missing the point of this sort of hardtail: it’s all about the engaging ride experience and sheer simplicity.
Component Check • Manitou Mattoc Comp fork: Manitou isn’t a familiar sight on mountain bikes these days, but the latest Mattoc Comp has a lot going for it. With the 34mm stanchion and reverse crown, it's a stiff fork and tracks well, although the damping didn't feel quite as refined as the latest offerings from Fox and RockShox. The Hex Lock QR15 is fiddly to use and takes some practice to get the hang of.
• Shimano SLX brakes: They might not cost a fortune but I really like the shape of the Shimano brake levers and they bed in very quickly and provide loads of power all of the time, with no maintenance required. It's really useful having lever reach adjustment as well, as I prefer my levers closer to the bars.
• Nukeproof OKLO AIR dropper post: Nukeproof's 125mm dropper post offered reliable performance for the majority of the time, but it did start to suffer towards the end of the test with a slower return speed than when the bike arrived. The handlebar remote lever could be larger for easier use, and the routing of the cable mitigates the internal seat tube dropper cable routing.
• Ragley Wiser Riser 760mm bars / 50mm Ragley stem: The frame is built around a short stem and fairly wide bar setup, and the fitted Ragley kit suited the bike well. I really liked the shape of the bars, with no hint of flex from them on the trail. I should also mention the matching Ragley saddle which was a comfortable shape for long stints in the saddle.
• WTB Vigilante/Trail Boss tires: A confidence inspiring tire pairing, providing consistent traction, both when braking or cornering. Rolling speed was good though the front tire did feel a bit draggy on some surfaces. They did cope pretty well with the mud as well, but the rear tire might go if I was to ride the bike through the entire winter.
Pinkbike's Take: | You could probably build it lighter, but I'm not sure there would be much to gain from going down that route, as it would risk losing the hard-hitting capability the Blue Pig so clearly expresses on the trail. The combination of the slack head angle and long-travel fork is a winning combination, and if you haven't ridden a hardtail for a long time, I'd urge giving the Blue Pig a go, as it might just open your eyes to how capable this sort of aggro hardtail is. - David Arthur |
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About the Reviewer David Arthur is a freelance mountain biker writer based in the UK. Stats: Age: 34 • Height: 5'11:” • Weight: 154lb • Industry affiliations / sponsors: None
There are so many options for hard hitting hardtails these days, people who might buy this bike already know what they're about (often coming from full sussers btw).
What I'd like to hear is : what makes this one different, apart from the color?
I'm talking about HA (64° is the slackest I've seen), length (these are not so long) and the importance of steel.
In the same price range you have the Shan, quite the reference. Also Commencal stepping up with a sexy crmo for 2016. How do they compare?
And 14.2kg is heavy. Ok it's not meant to be light, but if I went the hardtail route I wouldn't want it to be "winch to the top, enjoy the descents". So if someone cares about the uphills, should he consider a Mondraker Vantage (aluminium)? 67°HA but forward geo... Chris Porter would approve.
Please, answers!
Re: how it stacks up against other hardtails: "I definitely rode familiar trails faster on this bike than any other hardtail I've ridden in recent years. I reckon it's probably faster than some cross-country full-sussers too" - doesn't mean it's better than other hardtails, just faster. Would have been nice to hear what else he has ridden though.
Re: how it handles/what it feels like to ride: "High-speed stability, whether dropping into steep rooty trails or carving through flat-out fast berms is a joyous experience on the Blue Pig. There’s a surprising accuracy from the frame and it never felt like it was twisting or squirming under high loads. It doesn’t noticeably deflect under heavy landings or through fast corners, and the beefy front-end ensured the fork kept tracking accurately. While you can get down tracks pretty swiftly if you just hang back and let the Blue Pig loose, it suits a rider that is prepared to really take charge, for it needs a bit of weight over the front wheel to really get the fork to work at its best and get the front wheel tucked neatly into corners. " - what more can be said? If you ride front heavy, this bike is for you. If you ride back heavy. get something else.
Re why you want this bike: "It might not be the fastest bike against the clock, but that’s missing the point of this sort of hardtail: it’s all about the engaging ride experience and sheer simplicity." In other words, don't buy this to race buy it for fun or for inclement weather as it is designed for the mud, as he stated in the review.
But this is the exact situation where it should have helped me out : I'm buying a hardtail, and it's time to choose.
So I did my research, and the bluepig is on the list.
And this review taught me nothing ("64°HA, steel frame" just reading the bike's specifications is enough to say it's going to be fast downhill)
For example as you said, I'd like to hear what were the other hardtails that were slower.
Seriously tho, when's the last time that PB did a review of multiple bikes at once? Trail Bike shootout, XC hardtail vs. FS speed fest test, Top Dog Cheap DH rigs, best Trail/Park/Street hardtails, BMX for MTB riders, etc. Grab a genre and stuff 4-to-6 bikes in a comparo with the same people riding the same trails. Or... "old versus new" and take a bike from a couple years ago and pit it against the new version, is newer really better? etc etc etc... so many good themes available.
I don't see fault with the single-bike reviews on PB but it would be nice to see more head-to-head comparison tests on here. Yes it's harder to coordinate many bikes and people but it would be nice to see a couple feature reviews with multiple bikes all head-to-head. Do it smart and work-in some celebrities at cool venues (Tippe vs Rachel Atherton on beach cruisers at the Whistler pump track, for example... which cruiser should I buy? LOL!)
No, it isn't as quick as a good full suspension bike but as the review says, it might not be the fastest bike but that definitely is missing the point.
I run a 150mm 65 degree aggro hardtail alongside my full suss and I love it. Better still the frame cost me £40. It'll do trail centres, natural stuff, road schleps and its even been taken to a regional DH race and didn't kill me.
A lot of new riders, especially in the UK, would do well do spend their cash on a bike like the Ragley and not only learn to ride properlyand have a damn good time doing it too.
With all due respect, if, as you say, you learned to ride faster, but a hardtail slowed you down, you haven't learned to ride faster, you've (presumably) just bought a skills compensating full suspension bike.
A good rider is quick, regardless.
As above anyway, it isn't about going quicker, its about having fun. If someone's idea of fun is ploughing through everything then so be it. But being able to be creative and feeling the trail more is just as fun. I have a hardtail and a full suss, both aggressive geometry. Neither is better than the other, they are just as good in different ways.
Some people don't, and never will, "get" what a good hardtail is, or can do for their riding.
As for this Ragley, it looks fun but my 40 year old back can no longer put up with a hardtail, and I think it is just too heavy as well.
Feel free to disagree, my opinion is merely my opinion.
If you can afford to run one alongside your full suss bike then these aggro hardtails offer 80% of the performance and don't sacrifice any of the fun.
I still maintain that a lot of beginners could do much worse than run something like the Blue Pig as their first bike.
I couldn't agree more. Once I learn how to be light in my HT, or read the trail better to anticipate and absorb the bumps with my legs and arms, I'm sure I'll be faster. Now imagine how faster I will be on a FS bike having these skills + the help of the suspension.
"I still maintain that a lot of beginners could do much worse than run something like the Blue Pig as their first bike"
That's what I was maintaining too :-)
At the end of the day it is great there is so much choice out there, especially for beginners. I, like everyone else, was a beginner once. And I had a hardtail. I quickly "outgrew" it in terms of the bikes ability, because it was an XC biased bike with a steep head angle and very little suspension. I see many many people riding those kinds of bikes, and I know friends who have run them, only to find they quickly outgrow the bike.
Something like the Blue Pig, or any other more aggressive hardtail makes sense - and I do say that with the benefit of hindsight - for a beginner because not only do they cost less than a (good) full suspension bike, but they also allow you to progress beyond just the initial limits that you find as a beginner.
A good, solid, well proportioned aggressive hardtail has many benefits from low maintenance winter riding to skills enhancement. They are most definitely NOT for everyone, or every situation but to dismiss one without riding one is naive.
Someone said above that it is all about fun - amen to that. Fun comes in many packages though and I know, being lucky enough to run two bikes, that a good hardtail and a good full suss bike can be just as much fun as each other.
Learning to bunny hop on a HT then apply it on a FS bike, is different than learning to bunny hop straight to a FS bike using the suspension. With a HT, you'll be forced to read the trail than to just plow through it with a FS. For a beginner(specially with a limited budget), I'd rather advice him to spend the money on HT with better parts and not on whatever FS he can afford.
The only reason my cx bike will get a look in at the moment is because the trails round here are just a pure slog fest in this heavy rain and no amount of front or rear suspension can inject any extra fun into low speed mud plugging. Sketchy narrow cx tyres, no grip, dodgy drop bars and cable discs make the grind like old school fun again, without an expensive maintenance bill...
I agree that hardtails are different: They're terrible and full sus is not ;-)
If somebody genuinely prefers the ride of a hardtail or just likes to mix things up that's fine by me, just don't start preaching that everyone should ride them to make them better riders.
To me HT is an excuse to be slower than others, to show some balls, but in the longer run it doesn't do much. Skills coaches like McCormack or Hamilton say it clearly, riding HT in the woods does not contribute to better skills. It is a completely different discussion if we talk having HT to ride pumptrack, street, trials, which does make you a better rider. Riding BMX track with BMX will make you a better rider, but riding BMX in the woods definitely won't.
Finaly remember that beginners need confidence and telling them to take a HT and ride DH trails is just plain stupid. It will only teach them hanging off the bars. So tell them to get a used FS bike. And most of that patronizing BS about honing skills comes from people who put 140, 160 forks into their HTs with 65 head angles to do nothing else but emulate DH/Enduro bike qualities.
1. You do learn to read a trail better on one. You can master a trail on a HT, then hop aboard your FS and get your best time.
2. You will not muck up your rear suspension. shops can charge up to $200 for servicing your rear, with most of that being labor, meaning if you do it yourself, you better have a lot of time on your hands.
3. Easier trails become a blast on a HT and you can many times go faster on pedally courses on them. It's not much fun to overbike a trail. Something boring on your Nomad can be a blast on a HT and you will probably be quicker on that 'boring' trail too.
@Rubberelli
This reading trail thing is part of the cliche, do you stop reading trail the minute you get on a full suspension bike? No, unless you're taking a DH bike down a green run you still have to read the trail. And to no lesser extent. Perhaps even more so since you're going faster.
If a hardtail makes you a better rider why not go rigid and become a seriously better rider? Why not ride a bmx down a DH trail and become Josh Bryceland? Why not forget the bike altogether and go trail running, when you get on a bike you'll be so much faster.
As to why fs ? Generally people have full sus for comfort, and i by this i am talking about the vast majority of uk riders who are not out hitting super gnarly shit but just trail riding. Fs defo is an advantage for dh and the gnarly stuff, a hardtail is never gonna keep up on there (fun to give it a go tho).
I think you know full well that we are talking about two different things as far as your non-sensical track walk argument goes. I'm suggesting that riding faster means you have to make decisions quicker, you have to react to the trail quicker and to do so you have to read the trail quicker. Full suspension bikes ride faster (I'm not saying this makes them better) that's what they're designed to do. The faster you go, the faster you have to think and the faster you have to react - just to make clear my point (do you see my point lolololol etc etc).
Anyone who enjoys riding their hardtail, or rigid or even lunatics riding bmx's down DH trails and having fun is cool with me, my best bud rides a hardtail very similar to the Blue Pig, he's a bellend but not because he rides a hardtail. I see it like this - how d'you know you're talking to a hardtail rider? Don't worry, they'll tell you. I'll be going into hiding now.
I also do think people should start off on a HT, in the same way you dont start off on motor bikes buying a 1200 cc super bike, its gonna end in tears as you dont know how to handle the damn thing
www.pinkbike.com/news/The-Argument-For-Short-Travel-Bikes-Opinion-2012.html
"Sure, certain essential bicycle skills are better learned on a shorter travel, easier-to-ride bicycle. And yes, newer riders may indeed find themselves in over their heads on a big travel downhill rig. But when it comes time to take those essential skills to the big leagues, when the buttercup in you wants to buck up, it’s time to go deep. "
I float between riding FS and HT depending on how I feel about my riding. At the moment I am building up a 140mm travel Oka because I want more fun and I enjoy the challenges a HT can provide in this department. I have no doubt I will return to a Fs at some stage, but I have found my riding has really benefited from not sticking with one or the other. Personally, I find the arguments for or against a bit silly. Both have their place and the rider decides which is 'best' as the consumer decides the value of a product (basic marketing 101 there). If HT is not for you, great - rock on. Trying to convince you otherwise would be like trying to convince a snowboarder that grovelling between lifts and facing sideways all the time is shit compared to skis ...
Just as a point of interest - I worked around the industry for forgive years, managed a WC DH/4x team for two and managed Mick Hannah for three. That does not make me an expert in riding, but the one consistent theme that came up with team managers and brand owners was wanting to know the background of the riders they were going to sign. It is only my opinion but I believe they wanted to make sure they had a mix in there - ie that they hadn't just strolled straight onto a DH rig. Not staying this proves my point and disproves yours, but I think those at the sharp end see the benefit of learning skills on all bikes.
To reiterate, my point is"
Hardtails are not for everyone, they require you to work harder. But like most things, the more work you put into it, the more you get out of it. Not having rear suspension teaches valuable lessons that full suspension bikes do not, such as riding centered over the bike instead of hanging off of the back, or riding lightly on your pedals rather than plowing.
If hardtails are not for you, that's fine, but arguing that claims of improving your riding skills are false just because you didn't see it that way or didn't stick with it long enough to see the benefits is bull.
I appreciate what you say, I have accused others of basing their opinions on nothing but other people's opinions when mine appear based only on a short period of hardtail riding. So I can see where you're coming from. Maybe I should go and get on a hardtail again just to make sure that I won't become a better rider but then how much experience is enough to form an opinion? This is a genuine question to you and myself.
I like the challenge to be met thing it's a good way to think about it, but to that end I come back to why not just go rigid if a challenge is what you're after? I believe there is still a challenge to be met on a full suspension, it's just a bit more like 'let's see how many beers I can drink' than 'let's see how many nails I can stick in my eye' ;-P please accept that as a joke about my view point I'm trying to keep things light hearted here, honest.
I don't believe people stop using their legs the minute they jump on a full suspension bike. I don't think that hardtails necessarily require you to work harder, I think they require you to work harder for fewer rewards. Put the same amount of work in on a full suspension and you'll get more out - that's the way I see it.
And I think you can learn the very same lessons on a full suspension as a hardtail only difference is hardtails get in deep water at a lower level than a full suspension bike. You could say that a rigid bike teaches lessons you can't learn on a hardtail - it doesn't - you'll learn the same lessons on both but you'd have more fun on the hardtail doing it, likewise you'd have more fun on a full suspension than a hardtail.
One of the main factors behind my opinion is snobbery - People looking down on other riders because of their skill level. Why does it even matter if a guy is riding his Nomad with pencil legs and hanging off the back? "Ugh another guy that should have ridden a hardtail for X years" - who cares? The guys having fun and he'll be having fun with or without 'proper technique' (I don't ride a Nomad btw :-D) And the Pro thing I don't really get either, if the rider is getting the results isn't that all that matters?
If you don't agree with something, when is it ok to argue against it? Should I wait until I really don't agree? Or would don't-agree-a-little-bit-more-than-that-but-not-quite-really don't agree be ok?
The time has been and gone when I should have said let's agree to disagree with you guys (and practically everyone else around here). I'll keep my mind open.
hardtails are not for everyone, I do not think that comparing them to fully rigid is a fair comparison (to me that's like if someone enjoys driving/building "classic" cars such as muscle cars, and someone coming along and saying "you may as well buy a model T if you like classic cars", it's not the same thing) I have done fully rigid though, and It is a much larger step from HT to Rigid than it is from FS to HT.
So here we go again, I have no problem with you not liking hardtails, but to outright attack them because you didn't get what you want out of them is what I have a problem with it. I for one, do not like coconuts, but I wouldn't post a negative review for a coconut based product just because I don't like the taste of it, despite how many people say coconut is delicious.
If we really want to run with the flats/clipless debate, think about it this way. Many riders who begin on clipless cannot do a "proper" bunny hop, and rely on pulling up with their feet as they simultaneously pickup the front end, while that usually gets you more height, it does not do as well for clearing obstacles. You certainly CAN bunnyhop the correct way with clipless, but people often do not learn it that way, because it is not a necessity for riding clipped in. But if they were to ride with flats, the correct bunny-hop motion is the only way that it will work, so they learn it that way, then when they go back to clippling in, they should be able to get the bike higher than they could with flats, or than they could with clips before learning on flats.
so sure, riding off of the back of the bike and letting the rear suspension works fine, but if a rider rides chunky trails on a hardtail, that riding style will not work well, so it teaches the rider to ride more centered and lighter on their feet to absorb impacts on the rear wheel, which will make a rider faster/flowier on a HT or a FS. You can certainly learn these skills on a FS bike as well, but it is not forced, so some riders completely overlook them. If you're a rider who already has these skills mastered, then sure, a hardtail wouldn't do much for your skill level.
but in my opinion, while I believe everything I've just said, it's not that big of a deal, and everyone can have fun on a mountain bike regardless of skill or speed, Honing my skills is not the primary reason I personally ride a hardtail, it is just an added benefit. I ride a hardtail because I enjoy it, plain and simple. And I feel like most hardtail riders feel the same.
and no, I don't BMX bro. and I'm not on BMX threads telling people that BMX does not make them better at mountain biking, or any other cycling discipline.
Only speaking for myself, I have found that riding my hardtail makes me a better rider on my full suspension. Yes there are times that riding a full suspension bike opens up lines that are unmanageable on a hardtail. However I have found that on my local trails more often than not the smoothest line with my hardtail is also the fastest line on my full suspension. Riding my hardtail forces me to find these lines which instills the habit while riding the full suspension to look for and make these lines rather than relying on my suspension to eat up everything in my way. Every time your rear suspension is being activated it's because of a force that in reality is trying to slow your forward progress. Yes riding that chunky line with my full suspension will always be faster than if I was to ride it on my hardtail. I have found though that the majority of the time the smoother lines my hardtail has me trained to find are the faster lines, uphill as well as downhill. Does the hardtail teach me every skill needed to be a well rounded rider no. My full suspension has taught me to be much more comfortable staying off the brakes and dealing with the speed when the super chunky sections come up which has opened up lines that I would not have ever noticed on my hardtail. The full suspension has also taught me to be much more comfortable in the air which also has opened up line choices I wouldn't have gone for on my hardtail.
I'm out there riding for the full experience not just for the downhills. Because of this I care how the uphills and the flats ride for me. My hardtail may be a little bit slower going downhill but it is a lot faster than my full suspension everywhere else which leads to my hardtail rides being .5-1mph faster than my full suspension rides.
Fun is all in the eye of the individual rider and I have just as much fun on my hardtail as I do on my 160mm enduro bike. Do I ride them differently? Of course I do. I'm not hucking myself off every jump I can find on my hardtail nor am I rolling the biggest steepest rollers out there. I'm still having a hell of a lot of fun though. I think every rider is out there to have fun and I think most rider are out there to become better riders as well (at least I like to think that others are always trying to be better at what they do rather than settling for the status quo) so if changing up disciplines once in a while makes some one better in one way or another I think that's a great thing. No I'm not going to be taking my hardtail to the parks and if I'm going someplace that's new to me nine times out of ten I'm going to take my full suspension but my hardtail has made me a better rider all around.
Does riding your hardtail actually make you a better rider on the full suspension? Or are you just faster when riding the same lines on your full suspension? I agree that the fastest line is usually the smoothest - you're usually faster with the wheels on the ground so it makes sense to stay away from the bigger obstacles that will have more of an impact on your speed (if speed is what you're after, most of us are). But do you need to ride a hardtail to figure that out? I don't believe you do. If you strive for speed you will learn to spot and ride the fastest line on whatever bike you're on - from rigid to DH rig and I believe you might actually learn to spot lines and read the trail 'better' on a full suspension bike, your limits of speed are higher on a full suspension and therefore you will have to learn not just to actually select your line quicker but to manouvre the bike onto and off of those lines quicker.
I'm like you - if all I cared about was riding DH I would ride a DH bike - but I like to ride up and over too. Riding uphill presents slightly different challenges to downhill and that's what I feel makes mtb such an awesome thing, the variety. We're both talking about our own trails here so there are going to be differences but as I've already said somewhere in the mess above the pedalling efficiency of hardtails is another thing I take (some) issue with, I don't refute that they transfer power to the rear wheel more efficiently but whether that rear wheel can transfer your power to the trail really depends on the conditions and the trail you're riding - if it's flatter (no harm in that, we all encounter flat stuff) and dryer then yeah it's probably a better tool but if you are out in the wilderness, in the mountains, in all conditions then a full suspension will find more grip and while some of your power is being taken by the rear suspension, it's being given back in equal amounts in grip to the trail. It's as has been said - one may not be better than the other, just better in different situations. But people do say that hardtails are better riding up and over or that they are more efficient all the time and I believe that is inaccurate - I realise you were only talking about your trails so that's all good. But it's another thing that gets talked about as if it were fact. Things get carried over from the road bike world which is very straight cut but no one mtb trail is the same as another.
I actually blame the journos for most of these myths. One guy says something in one review about one bike and the trails they were on and it then gets repeated. And some of what I feel are myths are what were once facts from way back in the day when the hardtail was more closely aligned to the full suspension bike.
I agree 100% about the climbing efficiency though, However, that is just another way riding a hardtail can improve your overall technique, It takes a lot more body motion to search for traction on a hardtail, while on a FS you can usually just sit and spin, however that is not always the best way to do it, learning where and when to put down the power without losing traction can make you a more efficient technical climber. Once again, not saying you NEED to ride a hardtail to learn this, but it certainly forces it.
I agree with both of you that no I do not need the hardtail to teach me to find those smooth lines. It does however require me to look for those lines rather than becoming complacent and just allowing the suspension to do all the work because it can. I think we can all get a little complacent at times but when we allow that complacency to become the norm it's detrimental to our progression and for me the hardtail keeps me honest in this way. I learned on a hardtail years ago but it wasn't until this past summer that I got back on one and realised just how complacent being on a full suspension has made over the last so many years.
As most of my local climbs are fairly long with small very technical sections thrown in the hardtail still climbs them quicker. However I would agree that because of the nature of suspension the very technical sections are easier on my full suspension because of the how much more traction the bike is getting. On the contrary though knowing where and when to use my body English and peddle strokes on the hardtail in those sections makes them that much easier on my full suspension. Both styles have different advantages. There's one particular uphill technical section where on my hardtail I have to enter slowly and use some trials skills to get up where as on the full suspension I can just carry a lot more speed and give one good push at the top to get over the crux move. Is one style better than the other? No. Though I do enjoy being able to utilize both skill sets when circumstances require.
In terms of muddy and winter conditions I also feel that it doesn't matter which style you use as long as you're having fun. I'm pretty conservative when it comes to my trails in those conditions, going slower and avoiding the worst areas. I have found because of this my suspension is not getting destroyed by the mud. Instead I find that the drivetrain sees the most wear and tear which is the same for both bikes.
In general I don't feel that a hardtail is needed to learn these techniques that make me a better rider on my full suspension but it's unforgiving nature keeps me more aware of them when riding.
Now when are we going to debate chainstay length? :-P
I learned to clear 2-6m jumps on a hardtail, crashing occasionally. A friend of mine said I am doing it wrong and showed me some moves. I learned to lean backwards, send and squash stuff on a full suspension bike, because by that time I could afford it. I did my first whip on a fully, my first suicide no hander on a fully.
I learned to launch from one rock to jump over another on a FS bike because it happened on a day where I chose to ride one.
I "learned" to ride hanging off the bars, too far back on a HT. Most of the time spent learning to ride in a neutral position with weight over the BB happened to be on a fully. Because I became aware of it after I read about it in Lee McCormacks book on riding skills that I bought a year after I got myself a fully.
I learned the insides of braking hard and in right spots on a fully
I learned to climb steep technical stuff on a fully, because I ride mostly on a fully.
I learned to pump terrain on a fully, I practice pumping on a hardtail, because it's stupid to ride pumptrack on a fully.
I learn to manual on a ridid HT because that is the bike I am riding on my way to work and I don't want a suspension fork on a commuter - is that an argument for rigid forks?
I learned all of my bad habits on a HT because at the time I was starting riding I had no money for a fully. Where does a particular type of a bike fit in some overall gaining skills ideology? NOWHERE. Deliberate practice in a right way fits all sorts of bikes and is the main factor in learning. Now If you take skills clinics while riding a FatBike with electronic suspension ...
Good night
Loving how passionate this all got while I was off in hospital though ???? I actually do see the points made by Waki, and Thom and I don't see them as ridiculous. You don't 'have' to learn the skill sets some of us have talked about on a HT, I just think that this path has proven to be better for many and it remains something consistent across the world's top riders. If you learned bad techniques on a HT, Waki, maybe stop blaming the tool...
And yes, Waki, learning to drive in a fiesta rather than a F1 WILL make you faster - find me a single driver iPad the top level that did not start from lower lev racing and I will happily eat my words
If you want to learn general skills sell that PeePrivee HT, buy a DJ bike and hit the BMX track. Why? Because you will learn to accelerate quicker than you ever thought is possible, you will become a master at jumping and putting your tyres down on the ground anywhere you like, after whatever big jump by squashing or launching, you'll get good at manualing, your overall ability to generate speed by using hips will improve, you'll be pumping terrain like a God afterwards. All coaches know it - In simple words: quality, deliberate practice time spend off the woods and sometimes even off the bike contributes to the overall riding skill. Riding cluelessly in the woods on whatever bike doesn't. Same goes to mindless Strava-ing. Cuts 2 seconds off the segment, teaches you one thing, strenghtens 10 bad habits.
Yes YT is cheap, but even if you had a Lynskey on DVO with ENVE wheels aside of 10k S-Works Enduro, and kept on propelling this "HT makes you better on FS", you'd still be an ignorant bastard with little clue how skills are built. No worries Sam Blenkinsop has no clue either. Greg Minnaar asks coaches inviting him as a mentor for clinics, to say that he is bad at teaching.
The MX comparison is perfect as again there are clear levels of progression in motorcycling that involve a change in equipment. Very very few riders start out riding 400cc machines - most progress from smaller bikes.. The reason we start all riders off on smaller motorcycles is so they learn. They learn body position, braking, jump technique and track position all without a f*cking great engine. Before you say "but they are kids, so the bikes are smaller', look at road bikes and see how we do this now in most countries too. Learners start on 400cc- 600cc bikes and can progress only after a given time.
Take martial arts - and this is near and dear to my heart as I swapped from Judo several years ago after competing at a fairly reasonable level to Crav Maga. Now I started these new sessions with a fellow bunch of newbies, and yet four years in I have reached a high level and they have all fallen behind. Am I some ultra fighter? No - horseshit I am. It is because I have the basic understandings of body position, weight transfer, stance, vulnerabilities of an opponent... the things that form the basis of any combat.
You put words into my mouth, Waki - I did not say that riding a HT makes you a better FS rider. Riding a FS makes you a better FS rider... I agree - but riding a HT makes you a better rider. You will not be a complete rider without mastering both (and BMX and dirt jumps and unicyle.... very f*cking Zen I know)
Thanks for the suggestion of the dirt jump bike, BTW, but you are assuming I don't already ride BMX and the odd bit of jumps. Yes - I am old, but I am flexible and bounce very well
I think part of my disagreement with you is the fact that you talk about coaching and teaching and learning, but I don't think you actually understand these things. As I have coached I feel I speak from experience, but your comments suggest that you do not.
I personally do not care if riding a hardtail makes me a "better" rider (once again, probably not the right term) I ride it because it is more fun for me. If you're not into that, that's fine.
and also how more bad riders is better for you...? Not seeing a connection.
On a HT there is no 160mm (or more) get out of jail free card. If you can not read a line, position your body correctly, take a drop, use your legs as shocks and clean ou landings...well you get flogged. I have nothing against FS, I only don't own one at the moment as I sold my meta am to do a new build and did not have the money to do two.
You keep getting angrier and angrier, Waki, so go have a ride, champ. Like many, I enjoy your rants on here.
Yes FS does leave some people passive over rough bits, but Hardtail shakes beginners a bit too much, making them less likely to relax and from all the things it is more likely to keep them looking down instead of as far ahead as they can. I also believe it is more likely to make them hanging off the back of the bike since they are more scared. Riding HT requires finding amplitude for the trail to much more precise degree than any other bike with suspension fork. Once you get good you know that you should stay forward because you must make use of your arms to work the terrain. Whiiich is not the case on FS where you want to teach them so use hips as much as possible. It also somewhat forces them to use clipless pedals as you must be a demi-god to ride HT any faster on flats. Most importantly, some people don't give a fk about excelling, they are weekend warriors, they will be happiest to swing their leg over 120-140, 275+ bike and God bless them for that.
So as for steps from gokart to F1 I only take masturbation and sex All the best.
I do feel that there are certain technique benefits to riding a hardtail, but once again, this is not why I ride one, and if someone is riding one for just those benefits, then they're probably missing the point, as the point is to just have fun on a bike, and I personally have more fun on a hardtail most of the time.
thanks for making me feel special about riding flat pedals on my hardtail too, although it seems like you may think it's a bit harder than it really is.
After all this, now you go and make me laugh when I just f*cked my shoulder (again!)... You ar evil Waki, EVIL!!!
That's kind of what we had concluded earlier on I guess.
PS totally agree with the clips on a hardtail @Waki (as I've mentioned before) - if you really want to use your legs as suspension (on a ht) it's the only way to do it.
the clips thing really comes down to the rider, I have never had trouble keeping my feet on the pedals personally on my hardtail. I've honestly never even thought about it before waki mentioned it because it is so far from my mind while riding. And I do ride full suspension as well (as I have mentioned) and i don't notice any difference in difficulty keeping my feel on the pedals.
there is a middle ground here.
Hardtail riding CAN (not will, but potentially can) make a rider more versed in different handling techniques.
Full suspension CAN (not will, but potentially can) allow a rider to rely too much on their bike's suspension, therefore not learning all of the best handling techniques (once again, not will but potentially can) (and there is nothing wrong with that if a rider just wants to ride and does not concern themselves with progressing, I just want to clarify that)
Basically what Ive been saying this whole time. I think part of the problem is you're misinterpreting what I'm saying as some kind of attack on full suspension bikes, which is not. I have always kept a FS on hand and am an advocate for both, hell I I've owned a lot more full suspension bikes than hardtails.
I ride AM trails and switch from my HT and 160mm FS almost every other ride yes my downhill sections are almost always faster on the FS but when you factor in the entire ride my HT rides are always at least 1/2mph faster than my FS rides.
To each their own though. If you don't like it don't ride it but if you don't ride it/haven't ridden it don't knock it.
When the fork is sagged HA & SA steepen, WB shortens, reach and TT lengthen.
So if you're comparing to a full susser you have to mind this.
Another thing is that reach only makes sense when you do not sit ...
To simulate Sag on a hardtail, I suggest you try this :
bikegeo.muha.cc
As a reference, choose a 150mm fork, and compare it to a 125mm fork, which is like having your 150mm fork sagged at 25mm. And then read the numbers.
If it's still not clear, I'll let someone else find some nice illustrations, or you can pick a pen and a sheet of paper.
I'm sure we could split hairs and call each other names ad nausea but I can't be arsed, there's plenty of that on these comments already...
Longer front end, longer wheelbase and a seat angle of 75-77º and then you'd get a great hardtail.
This is closer to what I'm on about: www.btr-fabrications.com/product/belter
And for those who know what would be their perfect geometry : www.descendence.com/the-trail-frame
Starting at $650 AU, custom geo included
fotos.mtb-news.de/p/1878894?in=set
fotos.mtb-news.de/p/1813199?in=set
fotos.mtb-news.de/p/1813200?in=set
The problem with raked out hard tails from 15 years ago, is they were never designed for it. Basically dirt jumpers with huge forks.
Huh?????
Because it's blue, and is made for mud.
Ask me how I know.
www.instagram.com/p/BALD2cOoqZB
32lbs is too heavy, even for a FS IMHO.
It's built to a budget, I get that a £1500 bike isn't going to hit all the notes.