Banshee Prime - Coming Together

Feb 21, 2011 at 23:30
by Rob Dunnet  

Last week I posted pictures of the Banshee Prime CNC parts. During the week Pacific Prototype Wizard Teddy completed the front and rear triangles. In the excitement we have started ordering parts for the initial frames to see how they roll.

Front triangle fresh from welding ready for T4 and T6 heat treating.
Front triangle fresh from welding ready for T4 and T6 heat treating.
Front triangle bottom bracket and pivots.
Front triangle bottom bracket and pivots.
Here are Prime front and rear triangles fresh from T4 heat treating. The complete frames will go into T6 on Thursday and we should have assembled frames next week.
Here are Prime front and rear triangles fresh from T4 heat treating. The complete frames will go into T6 on Thursday and we should have assembled frames next week.

The drop outs are adjustable and interchangeable = geometry options. Making the Prime versatile right out of the box. (Currently 150x12 and 135x10 options, if the demand is great enough for the new 142 spec we will look into offering it.)
The drop outs are adjustable and interchangeable = geometry options. Making the Prime versatile right out of the box. (Currently 150x12 and 135x10 options, if the demand is great enough for the new 142 spec we will look into offering it.)
The rear triangle has come together nicely and will give the Prime a distinct look, while remaining 100% Banshee.
The rear triangle has come together nicely and will give the Prime a distinct look, while remaining 100% Banshee.
While the 2D paper drawing of the Prime gave me a good idea of what the completed frame will look like. I will go one step further and offer a more 3D view ...
While the 2D paper drawing of the Prime gave me a good idea of what the completed frame will look like. I will go one step further and offer a more 3D view ...
The Front and Rear triangle fit together nicely.
The Front and Rear triangle fit together nicely.
And for all of the Banshee fans and 29er fans I will leave you with a rough idea of what the frame will look like once complete. Love it or hate it, that is going to be one sexy Banshee.
And for all of the Banshee fans and 29er fans I will leave you with a rough idea of what the frame will look like once complete. Love it or hate it, that is going to be one sexy Banshee.

Next week we will have an assembled frame and Keith will give some of his Engineering insight into the Prime. If you have any questions for Keith feel free to ask them in the comment section of this post.

Keep Riding.

Rob Dunnet
Must Read This Week









105 Comments

  • + 9
 It comes down to the chicken and the egg. If there are more frames on the market where a descent all mountain fork is needed, the suspension companies will oblige. In a few years when all the major frame manufacturers have copied Banshee and have their own 29" all-mountain rigs, there will be many option for customization. This is simply the birth of a new class.

I love my Rune and I will definitely be looking at the Prime if I decide to go 29". As someone else said, size does matter.
  • + 1
 well said ...
  • + 5
 i don't really think you can say "Copied Banshee" as intense and trek also have 29" "all-mountain rigs" apart from that i agree with you
  • - 1
 Just make bigger frames, 29in wheels look stupid ...
[Reply]
  • + 5
 The thing about a 29er dh/fr bike (if that's what it will be), how many long travel forks are there available for 29ers? I can't even think of one.... It's different for XC bikes, but even then, the choice is fairly limited.
  • + 9
 i believe dorados can have a 29" wheel
  • + 2
 i guess there is a 29er dorado, at least thats what the intense 2951 has. Not sure if it's specially made. If 29er dh rigs end up being the next big thing then im sure we will see many more companies jumping on the bandwagon
  • + 3
 not only that, but there will be a loss in strength in the wheels and a natural increase in weight. acceleration will be slower aswell, but in the long-run, besides constantly maintaining your wheels, there are a lot of benefits to bigger wheels. such as low roll resistance, higher speed capability, easier landing and more stiff rides. i just dont see myself using it unless im sponsored and racing in the olympics, but i understand its purpose.
  • + 13
 I am tall,6'6", and this looks like the ticket for a fun time in the woods.
  • + 2
 I guess you haven't seen the Intense 2951 which JD Swanguen rode to 5th place in Fontana last weekend.

cleghornphotography.zenfolio.com/p699597404/h168f83f8#h168f83f8

The fork was covered, so your guess is as good as mine (Dorado most likely). You might get more info here:

www.vitalmtb.com/features/One-Year-Later-Intense-2951-29er-DH-Prototype,112

This isn't in the same league as a 2951, but maybe closer to a Lenz Behemoth, since the Prime has 130mm of travel (29er wheels makes it feel like 150-160mm). It'd go better with some of the 140mm forks out there like the Reba RL Maxle Lite or 44 TST2 Air 15QR.

If you want a 29er DH that's available now, check out the Lenz PBJ. Check with Mike at www.lacemine29.com for wheels to go with it.
  • - 18
 correct me if im wrong, but why are you guys calling the intense a 2951 ? is it not the intense 951 ???
  • + 8
 it is the 29er version ... click the links ...
  • + 0
 i doubt the 29 inch wheel will catch on in the dh world... turns slower, stops slower, accels slower, and is weaker in general. sure the rolling resistance (sp) is higher but i can't see the pro's out-weighing the con's... that being said, i haven't had the chance to ride one. so its purely superficial.
  • + 1
 29 for 29 then 951 for the intense 951.. mix them together 2951... The fork if you look closely obviously has the design of a Dorado on the bike J.D is riding.. regardles as mentioned before the Prime isnt a DH bike but an all mountain 29'r
  • + 2
 on topic here... the 44 (shudder...) and Reba can both be run with mid-long travel settings. (140mm)
  • + 3
 the rumor is RS is making a Revelation 29er with 150mm travel and that Fox is making a 140mm 29er ... but you did not hear that from me
  • + 3
 to the contrary, I hear something similar every day from the 29'er nut at work...
  • + 1
 also white bros have two USD fork options.. 180mm and 200mm.. both 29" capable
  • + 1
 Amart notified us of that. And they are sick forks, too! (or at least they look it)
  • + 1
 i believe the dorados for 29ers are just the same but limited to 6.5" travel, and that seems like plenty for a 29er
  • + 1
 will the foes F1 XTD not fit 29" wheels aswell?
  • + 1
 i think fox is or came out witih a 29'er fork
  • + 1
 yeh but with an xc one i think
[Reply]
  • + 3
 Question to Keith from Banshee: do you think it makes any sense to attempt to make such frame from some high quality steel? i.e. Reynolds 853 or 893. Especially that you keep so much profiles straight clean.

BTW bike looks great, all the element of the design seem extremely convenient to make the chainstay as short as possible. 29ers seem to speak to me more and more lately, as something that can push the boundaries of do-it-all bikes even further. Perhaps some fun factor might be lost, but there's more to MTB than just hedonism Wink
  • + 1
 I can probably field this one. [jay@banshee]
I love 853 and love 893 even more but when i talked to the Reynolds guy they didn't do the 893 in the tube sizes that we need.
Also when we look at the BB shell/main pivot forging those parts would be very difficult to machine and break a lot of tools in the process. So if you want to make this bike in steel it would look very very much different and it would actually cost a lot more too.
But steel definitely makes some beautiful bikes.
  • + 1
 Thanks a lot for answer! Can you mix steel types? Like to make those parts taking lot of effort to process from "softer" material. Can you tell which material is in your opinion most enivronmentaly friendly? extraction, pre-processing, eventual recycling?
I am more and more drawn into this ecobike (no I don't mean this el-bike cr... something Wink ), I would love to build my own one. For instance full suspenson bike seems more convenient in that manner: more elements men more trouble making it, but it also means if you break something somewhere, you can replace it. in HT if you break a chainstay you need to replace all frame. baaaa... my head is exploding with those ideas...
  • + 2
 I would say all the "metal" bikes are recyclable... I don't know about carbon bikes.
During the process metal is cut, forged, cnc'd so its light industry... it does use electricity to power the machines but probably the same as an office building. The dirty stuff is probably the anodizing and painting but no dirtier then painting your house or changing the oil in your car...make sure you dispose of the crap properly and not down the drain.
In the end nothing is totally green... electric cars a powered by electricity that comes normally from coal, oil, nuclear or...but its good to be aware and responsible as much as you can.
  • + 1
 Oh i was curious about the carbon recycling... looks like its not very recyclable
www.bicycleretailer.com/news/newsDetail/4512.html
and then what you need to do for say aluminum
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling
So if you want to be Eco then make your bike out of some kind of metal WakiDesigns
  • + 1
 Thx! there's a long way ahead of me. First some TIG welding course... If i give up then I buy this PRIME!
  • + 2
 Sorry to beat a dead horse, but yeah Al is incredibly recyclable as the wikipedia article says. Unfortunately, virgin aluminum is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, requires mining of Bauxite ore which is incredibly energy intensive and incredibly poisonous. I dunno if you remember the spills in Hungary from October of last year, but it was a huge environmental disaster stemming from an overflow of ponds used to store the waste from aluminum processing.
www.environmentalleader.com/2010/10/06/toxic-industrial-spill-kills-four-people-injures-120-in-hungary

Oh the things we do in the name of progress...

Anyway, obviously that has nothing to do with Banshee, just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

I'm wondering: how long are your bikes are usually in testing before you release them.
Also, I remember reading about the geometry for this a while ago on PB and I'm wondering if there's been any major changes since the original computer models. How confident are you that the tweaks in geo for 29" wheels will be enough, based on previous experience? Obviously there haven't been very many 29" AM bikes yet, so there's not many mistakes of others to learn from, right?
  • + 1
 I heard rumors of steel being more "green" material than alumiNUM, that's why I thought trying do an own bike from that.
  • + 1
 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_smelting
Some more info on the aluminum process for those that care to read.
  • + 0
 OMFG! Eek
After reading that article on carbonfiber recycling(the energy consumption for making it in the first place Eek ) I am never buying any carbonfiber product again!
  • + 0
 That's all we can do: vote with our money. Just don't buy it. If more people would be aware of such things, we would have at least a bit better world.

Another thing is that most probably we don't need so light bikes, we are fooled into believing that lighter is better. That would be true in case of XC Marathons on fireroads, with minimal obstacles. That would be true if there was a discipline of MTB called UPHILL. For everything else form Trail to DH: momentum is most riders friend. I believe any HT under 12kg can be considered lightweight, as well as AM under 15kg and DH under 18kgs.

RideON! Kitchen scales just screw up our sport!
[Reply]
  • + 1
 That frame looks bad-ass. I did say I'm not partial to the look of 29" bikes, yes, I did say that; but, it's not a complete bike yet.

Hey, Brule, T-bone, Mr. Maine, you're right when you say it takes time for some to adjust to change; I think I'm still in the process of that adjustment.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 OK, nice to see the industry evolving and progressing, no doubt 29ers are more stable on the track, but looks count too. You wouldn't buy a Ferrari with monster truck wheels, would you? It's all about taste and matter of opinion but to me the 2951 looks ridiculous with those huge wheels. I haven't ridden one and I'm sure it rides better than the regular 951, but I'd still go for the conventional version, maybe I'm just shallow...
[Reply]
  • + 1
 My experience is the 13 1/3" BB is too low, it needs to be 13 3/4 min. As for forks I have a set of 44 lowers on a the uppers of a Super T that Ive shortened the stanchions by 30mm. Now I have a more all mountain friendly head angle and coil and oil suspension. I built this fork with the intention of putting it on a Prime but am currently running it on my RIP.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 That frame looks really sick, the future of 29er's is almost here.
I have heard the matching fork for this is coming soon. Rumor has it the Maverick DUC36 carbon will be available late this year. I have a good friend close the Maverick, he says that fork will do 140mm, nice short 550mm A/C and stonger than a Fox 40 at about 4.5lbs. Sounds good to me.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 Fork companies could eliminate the need for long travel 29" forks if someone would make a 15/20mm eccentric front hub that would allow you to use a 29" wheel in a 26" fork.
  • + 4
 but then we would not have to buy 2 different forks and they would make less money ... ha ha ha
  • + 2
 Preventing the eccentric hub from rotating would be a huge issue. A splined or keyed axle might do the trick, but the fork would have to be custom designed for the axle then anyway. Any other retrofit (eg. picture a pedal brake on an old bmx, with the extended arm clamped to the chain stay) would likely put too much stress on the lowers.

Moreover, this seems akin to using block spacers to lift a truck just to accommodate bigger tires... kinda mickey mouse. The right way is to just get bigger suspension!
  • + 1
 It would be fairly easy if you used an offset locking axle. Frankly though a regular eccentric bb seems to work quite well with a simple wedge system. Seems quite doable to me.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Good luck keeping your wheels together on those 29er's. That should stay in the xc category. hope they don't let them in the same class as regular dh rigs in the races, 29er's are so much faster down the hill.
  • + 1
 "29er's are so much faster down the hill."

Not that I´m a twoniner-fan myself but don´t we all wanna go faster down the hill? It´s like that skinsuit debate a couple of years back where the UCI banned them because it was deemed more important to look "moto" than going faster down the hill. The sport needs to decide where it is going.
  • + 1
 Yea not a fan either, at all. Personally think its a dumb idea and mtb industry needs to stop reinventing the wheel and just make it better. But yes the point is to go faster, but my point is, if you have a 450 you aren't gonna be able to enter in the 250 class in moto right? So if say .. sam hill is on a 29er thats just even more unfair lol. Im sure you know what i mean. And as far as the "tights" lol ill leave those to Robin Hood. Thank god that style has come an gone.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 Wait so this is a 29er rig or what. Looks so dialed already
  • + 1
 yes this will be a 29er all mountain bike ...
[Reply]
  • + 3
 LOVE IT!!!
  • + 0
 29er dh bikes? a trend I could grow to love Wink looks sick!
  • + 4
 The Prime isn't a DH bike. It is a true all mountain bike.
  • - 1
 for an am bike it sure does look burly
  • - 3
 finally a company is doing it right and taking small steps to a 29er dh by first making an all mountain 29er
  • + 5
 Ummmm Norco Shinobi has hit the nail on the head with an AM 29er. but what ev.
  • + 0
 haha I was about to say..
  • + 1
 what head angle is it?
  • + 1
 we will release a more detailed post once the frame is complete ...
  • + 1
 well ain't that cute 3
  • + 2
 The WFO and RIP9 by Niner are also long(er) travel AM 29'ers... there are a few on the market.
  • + 4
 dude, stop with that mobbin bs
[Reply]
  • + 2
 looks sick, can't wait to see it all together.
[Reply]
  • + 0
 rear triangle design kinda looks like VPP (santa cruz/intense) but the pivot placements would be different of course since banshee have their own VF4B going on.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 i know what im saving up for...
  • + 4
 I kind of want to like the idea of a 29er Dh/Freeride bike, but it just looks too big (thats what she said). Am wondering if its gona be like the switch from 24rs to 26s... Food for thought
  • + 1
 its just a small change in a constantly changing market. they need new designs and specifications to outdate older products and maintain revenue. gotta love "innovation"
  • + 2
 this will not be a freeride bike ... it will be an all mountain bike ... and size matters ... ha ha ha
[Reply]
  • + 2
 So last post on the prime showed an elka shock, will this be spec?
  • + 0
 Eek looking at the second to last pic, i hope that little metal piece isnt the main link between the front/rear triangle.....looks wayyyyyy too small for the lateral stiffness a bike of this caliber should have.

just an observation....
  • + 0
 at this stage we can not say what will be the spec on this bike.
  • + 1
 do you have a plan for a fork though?
  • + 2
 @mtblocos1
yes it's small, but that's why it will be strong. i suspect is is a chunk of solid aluminium, about an inch thick and 2 inches long. you won't be breaking that
[Reply]
  • + 1
 rumor has it that Rock Shox is working on a Revelation 29 with a 150mm of travel max (read over at 29 inchs).
[Reply]
  • + 1
 this will be the only 29er I'll ever Ride! Thanks Banshee!. by the way I love my legend, rampant, spitfire, pyre.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 been loving my banshee scream since 2002 and i can't wait to see this finished ! Keep up the great work!!
[Reply]
  • + 1
 台湾代工的么?太平洋?hahah~
[Reply]
  • + 1
 I am glad to see "太平洋"。29er?
[Reply]
  • + 1
 like bigger STD Smile but nice bike...
[Reply]
  • + 1
 台湾代工的么?太平洋?hahah~
[Reply]
  • - 2
 Fuck 29s. There a gay fad just like gay fixies. I hope they never converge fully into the DH scene. A 29 inch wheel is wat to ig for DH, you wouldnt be able to corner well. And the same goes for all mountain.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 looks like its going to be a fun one!
[Reply]
  • + 1
 我看见了“太平洋” = =
  • + 1
 我們在台灣 。。。 在太平洋 。。。
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Wait so you're saying this is an all-mountain bike? Wink
[Reply]
  • + 1
 were just gonna have to wait and see
[Reply]
  • + 1
 It looks like a DW-Link to me, which I like.
  • + 2
 looks like a Banshee to me ... ha ha ha
  • + 1
 But it's NOT a dw-link. One could call it a Keith link Smile
[Reply]
  • + 2
 that looks so dope.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Wait so you're saying this is an all-mountain bike? Wink
  • + 2
 Yeah, it is an all mountain bike with 130mm of rear travel.
[Reply]
  • + 0
 lol I like the chinese letters on the carton
[Reply]
  • - 3
 look like a "VPP" or "APP" type of geometry
  • + 3
 you realize VPP and APP are completely different, right?
[Reply]
  • - 2
 looks like a 951
[Reply]
  • + 2
 I like the new frame design but what forks fit with 29''
  • + 1
 @ MTBbos: Dorado, no arch
  • + 1
 White brothers make a 6 inch travel 29er fork too. There still isn't enough options for forks and wheels and tires for my liking. Plus I find all 29ers too long, and I am a big guy. The bikes are naturally longer due to the larger wheels, and on tight single track I find that to be an issue. I find it an issue even on some of the XL bikes I have owned in the past. But that's just me.
  • + 2
 I think Rock Shox and Fox are both developing a more all mountain oriented 29er fork ...
  • + 1
 There are a few 140mm 29 specifc forks on the market along with the Dorado.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 nice maybe 29'' will be the main wheel out there soon.
  • + 1
 Manitou Minute 29'er fork is amazing!!
  • + 1
 see my post above re: 44 and Reba
[Reply]

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