The concept of 'buying local' is most commonly associated with the food world, the premise being that it's better to purchase items grown and harvested as close to your home as possible, rather than ones that were picked and then shipped thousands of miles before ending up in the store, but last week's announcement of
Push Industries' Elevensix shock got me thinking about how the idea applies to the mountain bike world as well. There was quite a ruckus in the comments section, much of it related to the Elevensix's $1200 price tag, which is quite high, but at the same time, the shock is completely made in the USA – even the raw materials are domestically sourced, which no doubt contributes to the wallet emptying price.
Producing an item in small batches from domestically sourced materials can result in a steep asking price.
Does the fact that something's produced locally, no matter where you live, necessarily mean it's better? The vast majority of today's mountain bikes and components are mass produced in Asia, where the manufacturing quality has experienced a drastic increase over the last two decades, effectively erasing the old argument that products made in China or Taiwan are somehow sub-par. That's not to say that there aren't quality control issues, but those issues seem to be just as common no matter where a product is made. At the same time, the appeal of purchasing a boutique bike or component from a small company still remains – witness the success of the North American Handmade Bike Show, where every year the best custom builders in the world show up to display their works of rideable art. Sure, you could probably buy a bike with similar geometry and components from a large global manufacturer at a fraction of the price, but would it still have the same appeal? There's something special about the idea of having an item made just for you, or of a local company toiling in their tiny workspace to make a small batch of items, as opposed to the vast factories of a multinational corporation churning out products 24/7.
That brings us to this week's poll question, which is related to the thought process that goes on before purchasing a cycling related item.
Does where a cycling product is made factor into your desision about whether or not to buy it?
That said, the one thing that will make me avoid a brand is evidence that they treat their workers like crap. The bike industry, as a whole, does pretty good with this, as Taiwan as a whole has a better record than some other southeast Asian countries.
I think a bigger issue is the environmental cost of production (including shipping from Asia which is kind of wasteful).
As to the human impact, people on welfare in the US have a better life than unemployed people in other countries, or even day laborers most places, so you could argue that the general human condition is more improved by employing people in a less fortunate country.
I bought the new Santa Cruz Nomad (made in China) which replaces my 1st gen Nomad (made in USA). And I would really like SANTA CRUZ to proof us that these frames are made under healthy and fair conditions (I really assume they are). I don't know if Carbon is the new Asbestos, but it can't be far away from it.
www.buzzfeed.com/alexrees/8-arguments-in-support-of-sweatshop-labor
I know an example, because my wife was a technical expert at the customs: A well known outdoor jacket manufacturer sell a jacket in switzerland for about 500.- Euros, at the customs the declared worth was 35.- Euros. Vaude is one of the very few outdoor companys who produce under fair circumstances.
I just want to say to the companys: produce fair, tell us about it and we buy it. We buy it anyway but it's hard to love it when not fairly made (my son loves his Spezialized made in Cambodia, but I will not tell him how it was most probably made, I hope I'm wrong).
Furthermore, our moral stance in this country is that we, as workers, should be safe from harm, be encouraged to develop professionally, and be reimbursed for our efforts. The definition of a sweatshop is one in which these human rights are foregone in favour of productivity. There is no argument that says it is ok not to have human rights because they benefit in other ways (this is the same stance that confederates took in the US civil war on the rights of Blacks; that they were better off being slaves in America because they had access to Christianity). Despite what your earlier link suggests, human rights are non-negotiable.
Point One- sweatshops have high rates of productivity: false. Very false. They have extremely low rates of productivity compared to the West, because the workers there have low skills. Their wages also reflect their low rates of marginal productivity. Since the workers there cannot produce the same amount per hour worked they work more hours to raise their income. Are many in terrible conditions? Yes. However, most choose this arrangement because it is still better than the alternative (sustenance agriculture). Are some forced into these terrible (by Western standards) jobs? Yes, unfortunately. However, the forcing is often done by governments, as is the case with some Foxconn employees being forced into labor by the Chinese government. This is very anti-free market.
Third Point- Human Rights are Non Negotiable- What, exactly, are human rights, and more importantly, who gets to decide what they are? Are they different than civil rights? Or how about just regular rights? These issues are much more complex than can be argued in a comment section, and it is not as clear cut as you describe. People who work in horrible conditions usually have no better alternative. These dangerous sweatshops are still safer than low-level agriculture and pay far more. Actively campaigning to shut down sweatshops hurts poor people. It makes developing economies worse off. There is a sweatshop-style factory in Viet Nam that was mentioned in one of the stories in the link above. The number one complaint from employees ("slaves", to you) was that the factory wasn't hiring more; they wanted jobs for their family members as well because it pays so much better than the alternative.
Magura forks are made in Germany (or at least some of them) and their price isn't anywhere near $1200 (if I don't count the ones with electronic suspension).
Not all of us are poor students anymore and manufacturers have no "responsibility" to limit their pricing. They will naturally pick a price point that maximizes their profits, not their sales numbers. If they don't think the higher price tag will offset the lower unit sales they wouldn't charge it.
I am all for hype but really.....your paying for gagets and you still have to have them set it up for you???????
It's actually one of the fastest cars you can buy, and that's without even using "for the money". "For the money", it, along with the Nissan GTR are easily the best bang for your buck.
The corvette holds the 8th fastest lap time on the Nurburgring for a production car. The only cars ahead of it are: The radical SR8 and the donkervoort d8Rs (both which highly toe the line of "street legal production" since they are basically glorified go-karts). Then you have the Nissan GTR and Dodge Viper ACR which are good. The other 3 cars that beat it are a Gumpert Apollo, Lexus LFA, and a Porsche 918 Spyder... all cars that are at LEAST 3x more expensive.
Now for cars that are behind it:Porsche 911, Maserati MC12, Pagani zonda, Ferrari Enzo, Porsche Carrerra, Ferrarri 458, Koenigsegg CCX and CCr, Lambo Murcielago, Ferrarri 430, Mercedes SLR Mclaren, Mercedes SLS, a bunch more Lambos...
Long story short, it clearly holds it's own... and considering you can get a ZR1 for a little over $100,000... well, enough said.
1. Complain a lot and hate Push.
2. Take your $$ and buy something else that works nearly as well.
3. Work really hard and earn a lot of money so that price doesn't limit what can buy.
What's your Slave footprint? It'd be interesting to see.
slaveryfootprint.org
but still, it highlights the point that no average rider needs a shock at this price point.
not to mention what do people ride on at a regional/national level to get to the world cup series? off the shelf vivids and dhxs are still race winners, albeit at a slightly lower competition level.
therefore i feel my argument still stands: this is purely a status symbol, and is absolutely not necessary.
I think you missed my point which was its unfair to assign motive behind the world's perception of the Swiss only caring about themselves. Just like its unfair to say the ridiculous things that the US isn't a democracy and the big business and gov't are ruining the world and causing all the problems. You could pull the US out of the world and have all the same problems because people are people no matter what. Hunger, Aids, Climate Change, Terrorism, Poverty, Wars would all still exist. Some other country would fill in the gap where the US has. Lay off the conspiracy movies and websites for a bit eh? Like I said its too easy and answer to blame the nebulous they and not look ourselves in the mirror. Its even easier to look across the ocean and blame other countries rather than work on the problems in your own. How much do you give to charities, help the poor, conserve energy, have a small carbon foot print? Its starts with people making small changes.
My German neighbors used to tell me they did everything better too sometimes they did things better, sometimes not. Its pretty arrogant to claim the Swiss help the world much more effectively. The Swiss government isn't perfect nor the Swiss people. The US is jacked up at times too and many Americans believe they are the best as well. If you've traveled a bit you know people are people no matter where you go.
PUSH is a small company with 30 or so employees about 1.5hrs from me in Loveland, Colorado. They service my Fox products every winter and give me great service at a reasonable price. There's no way they're a part of some alleged conspiracy to rape and pillage the world over a MTB shock. That's just not how things work.
Some times a product that was designed/built in the UK is worth the extra £££ because it has been product tested in our wet muddy slop and will out last a similar product that was designed/built/tested in the hot sunny climates of almost every other country.
Everyone is equal in the eyes of God. The person who should get your business is the person who can provide it best- regardless of the accident of geography.
@WAKIdesigns
Free trade and capitalism has lifted the West out of crushing human misery and is doing the same to the developing world. This was not and is not at the expense of the rest of the world. European colonies during the 1800s HURT the European nations as a whole, and retarded their economic growth. A few concentrated individuals benefited from colonies, but the West (and the colonies themselves, of course) would have experienced MORE economic growth and development had there been no colonies.
Look... You and me have blood on out hands, at least I don't brag how awesome I am for getting it there. Economical statistics don't tell the story how the numbers became what they are.
Anyone been in Cuba?, that place could be a biking mecha once the regime changes. Their mointains are huge and have lots of walking trails. I am in as soon i can fly my bike into the island easier.
Thanks for summing it up Waki, that's exactly how I feel.
"Producing an item in small batches from domestically sourced materials can result in a steep asking price."
Did PUSH try to produce a domestically sourced and manufactured, price competitive shock to go up against FOX and RS? No. They produced an extremely high performance and innovative piece of suspension that would have likely cost more to produce no matter where it was made.
Anyways. And not all US made products are superior in quality either. Anyone who has owned an aluminum Intense knows this.
I would love to see the US manufacturing sector make a come back. Bringing those jobs and dollars back home is something I think all US citizens would like to see. Merging our new Creative Class with a new Working Class sounds utopian, and German. Both? We'll see. I hope.
Knowing how many people bought Turner/Intense because they were made in the US and how many people buy Orange because they are made in the UK - I think the price of this particular product is swaying the votes slightly.
On the other hand, in the BMX world, the made-in-the USA thing is also a selling point for aftermarket components, but the price difference is not as drastic. USA-fabricated S&M stuff is not that much more expensive than other Taiwan-made quality stuff. Same for Profile Racing. I am not too sure why it is that way, but it is a fact that locally-made BMX stuff seems more competitively priced. Maybe there are less dentists riding BMX than there are riding MTB...that probably helps keeping the prices down.
Back to this shock.. I am sure Push isn't expecting to sell a million of them. But, they are going to sell every one they make. That's not a bad thing. It's like an S-works bike. It is a flagship product. Very expensive, low production numbers, and it shows what they can do. Fine tuning and fixing other products will still pay the bills for Push.
Made in Germany
Made in UK
Made in Japan
Made in Taiwan
Made in France
Made in Italy
Made in US
screw China.
As far as China is concerned, they're single-handedly responsible for putting the ENTIRE US manufacturing sector out of business, due to the Chinese g-ment subsidizing their factories in order to undercut the rest of the world.
The reason it worked here is, our own government being more concerned about GM/Ford, McDonalds, and Microsoft getting into the Chinese market than they are about American JOBS, turned a blind eye to China dumping their goods on the market at FAR below what anybody else could sell 'em for, thus Walmart etc. became the single BIGGEST buyer of Chinese-made goods IN THE WORLD.
I read a stat that said something like NINETY-PERCENT of Walmart customers have or know people that have lost their job(s) due to Walmart importing Chinese-made goods on such a large scale, and their customers gladly buying them.
I personally have NEVER bought anything from there, and never will.
BTW, this PUSH shock's price has LESS to do with where it's made, and a LOT more to do with the amount they expect to sell, thus their inability to spread the R&D and manufacturing out over a large(r) number of product.
Economies of scale
As for manufacturing, jobs, they have low pay, bad working conditions, and no income growth compared to newer, more tech-related jobs. These low wage jobs are leaving? Good! The average income in China is 10% what it is here- let them have those jobs. They are children of God just like you and me. That job will help lift and entire family out of mind-numbing poverty. Americans are too smart, too resourceful, and too educated to be wasting their potential in these low wage jobs. We need more engineers! More entrepreneurs! More computer scientists! More artists! More high skill, high pay jobs! Americans are the most productive people on the planet, with Britain second. We should let emerging economies grow the same way we did, and welcome them into the developed world.
As for your walmart stat- needs some citation.
It also ensures that while I may pay a premium (or relatively more), in the long run, it's worth it as warranty, replacement and service are often more accessible, inexpensive and reliable. Clearly, I think there's a strong argument for buying domestic.
However... There's also a slight chance that stuff made in the US is done oddly and inconsistently; with rare exception (such as high-end products like ENVE and PUSH) Americans aren't craftsmen anymore and don't generally understand the importance of product consistency or have consistent quality control processes, which can be a nightmare and is why a lot of companies choose to go to China or other Asian manufacturing countries -- labor is cheap, meticulous and generally ruled by repetition... Unless it's not, and then you enter the sticky situation of multi-factory manufacturing, and inconsistent quality. In the end, it's about a company's commitment level to their product. You have to know where to go.
I'm at a point in my life where I'm probably a producer's worst nightmare. I save too much and spend too little in their eyes, and I really don't pay any kind of premium for anything at the current time. I'll splurge here and there on a something. But if X costs more than Y solely because it was made in the USA, I'll probably go with Y. Unless there is a clear reason why the american made item is better or more importantly will last longer. I'd love to support US and local brands all the time with every purchase, but its just not a priority unless there are tangible benefits.
Buying a bike recently from an American company, I had no problem that they actually make their frames in Tawian. Clearly there's some benefit to that. Less expensive? Great! Is it better and more consistent quality? Who knows, but it meets the rigors of their standards so there's no reason why it won't meet mine. Glad that the carbon components were North American made though.
But their understanding of "quality" and the latest price rising just aren't reasonable at all.
I had lots of cuttings in my seat tube which scratched the hell out of my thomson seatpost.
Who doesn't clean their product before shipping?! People who don't care about product-quality because they have success anyway!
And when i'm looking at the welds i'm wondering if the welder had too much or too less pints.
Don't get me wrong. I really like these bikes because of their maintenance-free construction, suspension beheavior and geometry but the quality isn't up to the price tag.
If somebody would produce bikes like this made in taiwan i would prefer to buy them.... because of quality and price-performance ratio!
When i questioned myself if all uk-products suck hope came quickly to my mind...
Hope products are worth the money!
- The exchange rate euro-gbp was a dream for us. I paid ~1400€ for a Orange Five Frame with a Shock.
Nowadays it would be about 2200€!
- Kalle Nicolai seems to be a dick to his employees... i don't want to give him my money.
I think that impractical doesn't express what would happen if the policies promoted by say, the Green Party in the UK were adopted by parliament; no, rather than impractical, because they are feasible, but as Waki says, the effect would be, well, cataclysmic for our cushy lifestyles; many people's jaws would hit the floor once the felt the consequences of these policies on their consumerist lifestyles.
Opulent we are, dependent upon the criminal injustices of global free trade for our cozy lifestyles. I mean, we actually have enough free time and headspace to discuss the merits of a 1200 dollar shock!! We are lucky f*cks with our stables of bikes and most of us would scream blue murder if that changed.
Oh, most of us are too blinded by the shiny bits on our bikes to see it. I'm guilty as charged too、 even though I still rock on 26 inch, 9 speed, aluminium and am always likely too.
Push probably operates on its own machines and if you are familiar with that, they are extremely expensive. Compare it to a factory in China that operates older (which is still fine) machines, but they are making tons of different jobs for other customers too, so they can pay them back easily.
Not for Push.
The cost of material and all resources that comes in are for sure WAY higher then the same (and probably same quality) materials in China. Thats about national system / economics / taxes / sources...
On other hand, with its own shop, Push can quickly prototype and tweak any issues while with cheaper manufacturing overseas, there will be many rounds / time needed to make final tweaks.
Push can easily control quality over production in China.
And finally they are probably going to make just a few shocks. If you made 1000pcs in China, the price per shock will be lower, thats for sure.
They just run business that way. If you look at the shock, its beautiful machined thing from any angle. Does it matter at the end when you ride it? Probably not.
Im pretty sure, there is something, adjustment / feeling / performance that some of us will notice. But most of us will not. But Push is just aiming for a few guys who can afford that, pimp the bike and enjoy the extra performance / quality.
Those who runs their own business knows how things can get expensive. But there is always market for that price tag too.
Is there anyway to make it better for that price? I can imagine they offer "special unique tuning for you", "free of charge service once per season", "extra long warranty" ...just something that also makes you feel like you really own the best of the best.
On other hand, you have to compare similar products. This is not Van R, and also not Kage, or even some higher market shocks. Its just top of the top shocks and thats why its priced that way. Its probably one of the most expensive in its own category. This category offers the finest adjustments and performance (and probably quality).
As i said, they should also bring something extra such as extra tunning / free service,.. you name it
I just dont like discussions where people have to proof at all cost that what is the point of buying Ferrari if you can buy a Prius... but there is difference on many levels and so the price is different too.
My point is comparable product is half the price. On top of that, I'm the target market for product like this. I build and race on arguably the best products out there.
Another issue is bringing price points of rear shocks to this level. Other's will follow. Our $10k bike builds all of a sudden become $12k bikes, etc. It's just not a good thing for the bike market right now.
I'm usually the one to say, "if you can't afford it, don't buy it". However, there is a bigger picture with this product/price point.
I totally agree that there should be a higher level of service with products like this. Definitely helps justify the price and makes it more of an investment, which would help dramatically for most. You make very good points, good to see some sense around here! Cheers!
But as an engineer myself, who often has to find a way to source stuff - I have a lot of fun cutting through the marketing, and figuring out what catalog/factory a lot of the components in this industry originated from - and then trying to source it directly any way I can that doesn't require a minimum quantity. It's a fun challenge for me - I don't consider it being a cheapskate/trying to find the best deal - I just consider it a fun way to do the job I normally do.
I have tried, and trashed, loads of rims over the years and I have to say ZTR Flow are great, along with Mavic 721s. Two of my three pairs of Flows were Hope Hoops so that partially ticked the local box, plus they were on sale.
I said the same about bicycles and then I spent half my life on one. I became educated about what goes into them and why. I stopped crying about prices. I even decided to make my own parts.
I used to buy food based on price. Then I got into martial arts. Which got me into fitness. Which got me into bikes. Which got me outdoors. Now I own and operate an organically managed farm. True free range, organically raised eggs (Some darn good veggies too). During the growing season I charge $8 USD for a dozen eggs. Crazy, I know. But don't worry, I always sell out. You can bet your life I'll never buy based on price, now that at I know what goes into (or doesn't! ) the very goods we eat and the very things I spend what little hard earned money I have.
Who pays full retail on items like this any way.
As for where a product is made, ANY country has the ability to make both perfection and crap. It depends on the facility, equipment/machinery, design/engineering, QA/QC, and does the person pulling the levers know, and care about what their making or the machine their running. Look at BMX frames. Taiwan to USA made frame was maybe at most a difference of roughly $150. Taking into account the cost of 4130 tubing and minimum wage in the US seems like an acceptable spike. The mountain bike industry is all over the place, although due to materials and engineering, frame costs indicate what I am talking about and region doesn't drive the sporadic pricing either.
Ex; selling one product and making 500 profit or selling a product and profiting only 250 off of it. You will sell more of the inexpensive products and most likely make the same amount of profit, if not more, overall. More people will be able to afford it.
I will never buy this shock at this price. EVER.
As far as auto companies and US production,Toyota actually produces the most parts in the US. (Amazing what a bit of research and education will provide.)
As far as push and their prices are concerned they will never see a penny from me.
news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/09/140918-population-global-united-nations-2100-boom-africa
What we need are investments in food infrastructure. That means proper harvest technology, shipping and storage methods that don't spoil the crop, ROADS and TRAINS to get food to markets. Right now, I don't think free trade is promoting these investments in agriculture, and the countries that need them most don't have the stability to provide them (arguably due to the interference of America/Canada/EU). American agriculture's favourite catch phrase is "feeding the world", and it's true. America can produce corn, soy, rice, wheat, cotton, and hundreds of fresh produce crops/food cheaper and more efficiently (less environmental impact per kg of food) than just about any other nation in the world. Unfortunately, that means a lot of that production gets dumped into developing countries where farmers cannot compete. Why would a Ugandan buy local maize when America can sell cheaper corn via Chicago, and even sends boatloads worth in aid? Hell, there's a road in NY just south of Niagara Falls that has enough dairy farms to crush the industry in SW Ontario if we get rid of our protections.
Free trade isn't some silver bullet to food security, in a lot of ways its a barrier. Maybe free trade of investments could improve infrastructure, but I doubt those improvements would result in more food in the mouths of local residents.
....you guys actually thought those tight tolerances in the German tanks would survive all that mud and dirt?!
www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/woodie.html
THE MOST RELIABLE SUSPENSION PRODUCTS PERIOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
take the money you save over the Elevensix and get a season pass at your favorite mountain or something