Pinkbike Poll: Do You Care Where a Product is Made?

Feb 24, 2015 at 15:42
by Mike Kazimer  
The concept of 'buying local' is most commonly associated with the food world, the premise being that it's better to purchase items grown and harvested as close to your home as possible, rather than ones that were picked and then shipped thousands of miles before ending up in the store, but last week's announcement of Push Industries' Elevensix shock got me thinking about how the idea applies to the mountain bike world as well. There was quite a ruckus in the comments section, much of it related to the Elevensix's $1200 price tag, which is quite high, but at the same time, the shock is completely made in the USA – even the raw materials are domestically sourced, which no doubt contributes to the wallet emptying price.

ELEVENSIX shock 2015

Producing an item in small batches from domestically sourced materials can result in a steep asking price.


Does the fact that something's produced locally, no matter where you live, necessarily mean it's better? The vast majority of today's mountain bikes and components are mass produced in Asia, where the manufacturing quality has experienced a drastic increase over the last two decades, effectively erasing the old argument that products made in China or Taiwan are somehow sub-par. That's not to say that there aren't quality control issues, but those issues seem to be just as common no matter where a product is made. At the same time, the appeal of purchasing a boutique bike or component from a small company still remains – witness the success of the North American Handmade Bike Show, where every year the best custom builders in the world show up to display their works of rideable art. Sure, you could probably buy a bike with similar geometry and components from a large global manufacturer at a fraction of the price, but would it still have the same appeal? There's something special about the idea of having an item made just for you, or of a local company toiling in their tiny workspace to make a small batch of items, as opposed to the vast factories of a multinational corporation churning out products 24/7.

That brings us to this week's poll question, which is related to the thought process that goes on before purchasing a cycling related item.

Does where a cycling product is made factor into your desision about whether or not to buy it?

This poll is closed



Author Info:
mikekazimer avatar

Member since Feb 1, 2009
1,716 articles

261 Comments
  • 309 6
 Made in the USA? I thought for sure that Elevensix was made on the moon, because $1200 for a shock is astronomical.
  • 134 7
 It is thought to have solid gold internals and made by black Jesus
  • 11 10
 Best comment bro
  • 16 6
 Ya I cant see it being 600$ better than a good fox shock. And really how sensitive does a shock really have to be because I think my shock is smooth as butter and works great honestly who really cares it it can feel grains of sand if your riding that slow you should be on a beach cruiser anyway
  • 53 3
 The problem is not where it is made, but how it is made.
  • 17 19
 baby black jesus
  • 34 2
 @reinforcer - that is the correct thing to worry about. I am much more concerned with the quality of the product than where it is made. Some of the factories in Asia are producing goods that far exceed the quality of domestic (USA) goods. Besides, that shock is a totally custom, bespoke product that has no equal in the market - $1200 is a perfectly reasonable price for such a item. Come on, there are people that make custom knives that are more expensive and have no where near the complexity of a shock.
  • 15 3
 It is not a shock for you average joes ot os a shock for racers not pb posers like us who only take pics at oir bikes and whore them online, those shocks custom tuned for each buyer could be a difference of a few seconds in a race
  • 8 3
 @mhoshal a good fox shock... is there such a thing? seriously if you haven't tried a custom shock you haven't a clue. I rode a PUSHED fox shock for 5 years, - tftuned's own piston, shim stack and compression circuit. The bike was soo plush but didn't dive or bottom out. On my DH bike I have an avalanche, absolute butter, theres no 'of the shelf' shock that comes close. I really like this new shock if it goes into full production and price drops a bit I'll be having one on my next bike.
  • 7 15
flag mddigger (Feb 27, 2015 at 7:05) (Below Threshold)
 Fox shocks are good, their forks are what sucked.
  • 4 2
 Well if you think they are good then imagine what they are like after they have been pushed or avalanched....
  • 10 4
 They add virgins' tears in oil and palladium in shock body metal. This is the only way to explain the price
  • 14 2
 Well ive ridden enough shocks to know I dont need "custom" to be satisfied with my ride plus it helps that im knowledgeable on how to set up my shock exactly how I want it, if you think its worth paying an extra 600 for pretty much the same thing by all means go for it all im say is I wouldnt be that stupid and gullible just because it says push. But this is just a satisfied fox owner talking
  • 3 1
 turning dials is a fine tune that anyone can do, but changing the piston/shims mid vales and blow off is another science. This is what factory race teams do, they make changes from rider feedback to the shock internals. This is what I had done on my custom tunes to set it up for how I ride / weight / bike and my skill or lack of it. if your happy about how an off the shelf shock works then that's good for you but if you want to get the best from any bike a custom tune is way to do it unless you got a lucky generic match.
  • 3 1
 Yeah, I guess the whole tuning aspect of the shock is what makes it more expensive.
  • 1 0
 Plus this is a total new shock concept, there isn't another like it. It has 2 sets of tuneable compression circuits. You flick between them with the lever. No other shock has anything like that. You could have 2 dh setups, one for steep flatout and another for a flatter pedalling course instead of having 2 shocks. Or you can have an enduro setup with a descending and a pedal.
  • 5 2
 can,t compare FOX and PUSH for pricing , FOX is a Mcdonalds and sets their pricing by mass marketing and high volume manufacturing , they are a OEM supplier to tons of bike companies compared to a company that provides a service to one source at a time .
  • 2 3
 ya but this would be like dvo slapping a 5000$ price tag on their fork lol more money I can see but not almost double thats just greed man!!!
  • 2 0
 Even the dvo is mass produced and a single tune, you can alter the tune yourself buy changing the shim stack etc as there are instructions how to or pay someone to do it for you if you don't understand it buts its not setup specifically for you. If you goto the wc races you see all the big suspension trucks there constantly tuning shocks and forks specifically for each rider. This is the kind of setup you paying for, to have a shock setup for you not a generic tune mass produced and slapped onto every bike for every rider. That custom setup is usually $200 on top of buying a new shock..
  • 2 0
 i bet DVO pricing would be a lot different if they where not using their offshore company to produce they parts . again a comparison between and mass production company and a small batch company
  • 8 0
 I can see it being $1100 better than a Fox shock.
  • 1 1
 Ugh
  • 3 1
 Have come to believe that Fox's quality control is pretty poor after having a fork with mismatched colored stanchions and a rp23 that was defective on a new bike. Both had to be sent back. If Cane Creek made a fork that would be ideal.
  • 3 1
 I have an underlying hope that Cane Creek has been prototyping a fork in the last few years. With all comments demanding one, it'd be a winner!
  • 4 0
 I know it's not a direct comparison, but for a full A-Kit Showa setup on a dirtbike you are paying the cost of the dirtbike over again in just suspension components. Granted this is the best that money can buy besides a full factory custom setup. I don't think that I would notice very much difference, nor utilize a custom shock such as the Push unit to it's full potential, regardless of where it is made. Suspension part prices are going to slowly rise as more technology gets introduced, it stands to reason that we have 10K mountain bikes out there, eventually aftermarket suspension components are going to mimic what happened in the MX world, you have a 9K dirtbike, with the possibility of investing another 9K into suspension. It's only going to get more expensive.
  • 1 3
 I meant to downvote...
  • 3 1
 Virgins cry all the time, the value of their tears is negligible in my opinion, fictional metals for sure up the price though!
  • 122 5
 I buy locally. I live on earth.
  • 5 1
 Nice.
  • 12 2
 mind=blown
  • 3 0
 Nice one!
  • 4 4
 Try some Chinese product!
  • 16 2
 Funny & true: much as we may like to think otherwise, we're a global community now. It's not really any more noble to help make sure that somebody 100 miles away has a job than someone 5000.

That said, the one thing that will make me avoid a brand is evidence that they treat their workers like crap. The bike industry, as a whole, does pretty good with this, as Taiwan as a whole has a better record than some other southeast Asian countries.
  • 7 1
 Exactly, every product is local for *somebody*.

I think a bigger issue is the environmental cost of production (including shipping from Asia which is kind of wasteful).
  • 5 1
 The concept of globalization has allowed us to advance rapidly, but ultimately the use of energy/fuel will ruin us if we keep shipping everything such long distances. The idea of buying locally not only keeps tax revenue in state/country, but it also reduces the carbon footprint of the product you buy.
  • 5 1
 but that depends: If the raw materials are more plentiful in Asia, Then shipping the raw materials here for manufacturing is almost certainly more wasteful than shipping the finished product, & has more environmentally impact(more volume/mass to ship, therefore more fuel usage.) Mining in less ore rich locations requires more environmental impact to obtain the same quantity of ore, so it may be better to use resources in other places than destroy an entire mountain here just to reduce fuel usage.

As to the human impact, people on welfare in the US have a better life than unemployed people in other countries, or even day laborers most places, so you could argue that the general human condition is more improved by employing people in a less fortunate country.
  • 1 0
 @groghunter Very true, where *are* most of our raw materials? I'm not sure...
  • 1 0
 Those look like some rear forks if i say so myself!
  • 85 2
 Is it not the wrong question? I don't care much where it is made but under which circumstances. We all know made in India can mean made by a 8 year old on a 14 hrs shift in a deadly building with toxic chemicals or completey under fair circumstances. I think it's weird enjoying the nature with a product made under life threatening conditions.
I bought the new Santa Cruz Nomad (made in China) which replaces my 1st gen Nomad (made in USA). And I would really like SANTA CRUZ to proof us that these frames are made under healthy and fair conditions (I really assume they are). I don't know if Carbon is the new Asbestos, but it can't be far away from it.
  • 18 2
 This, I wish I could upvote you more. I'd upvote the hell out of you.
  • 9 0
 I mostly agree with you. Money is like a voting ballot; with those little green slips you're affirming the business models of the company you're purchasing from. If a company uses child labour, or the working conditions mean that workers will comit suicide to get out of a contract (Foxconn anyone?), you're effectively saying that this is ok so long as I can get a premium product at a bargain price - despite agreeing to the legislation of our own country. But by extension, even though there are good companies working in developing countries, our dealings with them affirm the country's political goal by giving them the tax revenue to continue on their path. For instance, we aren't at war with Russia despite their actions in Ukraine, we just don't do business with them (yet there are many good moral companies... I assume) because we have taken a stance against their actions. It's an an economic embargo to encourage better behaviour. In a global economy, trade has to represent moral stance, otherwise we're just hypocrites. The truth is, it doesn't because morals limit economic growth.
  • 2 0
 @bluechair84: Actually I didn't know my Santa Cruz frame was made in China until I saw the sticker. Then I started to think about it (a little late, I know). Now I just want to believe that the person who made my Frame is happy and healthy - very simply spoken. @hamncheez: It doesn't have to be a sweatshop in the first place. They should be good working places from the beginning. The labour costs are so much less then here, there is still enough profit to make (ok. for some it's never enough).
I know an example, because my wife was a technical expert at the customs: A well known outdoor jacket manufacturer sell a jacket in switzerland for about 500.- Euros, at the customs the declared worth was 35.- Euros. Vaude is one of the very few outdoor companys who produce under fair circumstances.
I just want to say to the companys: produce fair, tell us about it and we buy it. We buy it anyway but it's hard to love it when not fairly made (my son loves his Spezialized made in Cambodia, but I will not tell him how it was most probably made, I hope I'm wrong).
  • 2 0
 Ups, that came wrong. Vaude was not the manufacturer 500.-/35.- Euro jacket.
  • 4 3
 The question about sweatshops has nothing to do with the profit of the company. It has to do with the marginal rate of productivity of the worker, and the next-best alternatives. These crushingly poor people are poor because they have a low marginal rate of productivity- they lack education or job training. Many are illiterate. They can't produce as much work per hour as someone in the West who went to 12+ years of school and is surrounded by equally educated, trained, and productive people. Sweat shops, as bad as they are, are still better than 3rd world sustenance agriculture. People in Vietnam, India, China, etc sell everything they own and move to the cities and desperately fight to get a factory job. They already pay heads and shoulders more than they could make otherwise. If you raised the wages even more (above the per-worker rate of marginal productivity) it would attract even more workers from other industries. However, there is only a set number of jobs. It would increase inequality between those few who get a job and those who can't. The artificially higher wages would mean people would bribe, lie, and fight each other for these set number of jobs, and the lower margins would prevent new investment from expanding as quickly, and prevent new jobs from expanding as quickly.
  • 1 0
 I'll call BS on that @hamncheez. you'll probably find that sweatshops have the highest productivity of any labour force because they don't get breaks, they have long hours, they have crap contracts so if they don't keep to the expected minimum they can be dismissed and reprimands / punishment for not meeting quotas is harsh. The thing is with people who are highly qualified, is they are also highly educated and well represented, so they will only do an amount of work that they deem fair - a position workers in sweatshops cannot take.
Furthermore, our moral stance in this country is that we, as workers, should be safe from harm, be encouraged to develop professionally, and be reimbursed for our efforts. The definition of a sweatshop is one in which these human rights are foregone in favour of productivity. There is no argument that says it is ok not to have human rights because they benefit in other ways (this is the same stance that confederates took in the US civil war on the rights of Blacks; that they were better off being slaves in America because they had access to Christianity). Despite what your earlier link suggests, human rights are non-negotiable.
  • 1 0
 @Will77 Do you have any sources about that Cambodia thing?
  • 1 0
 @bluechair84 I'm guessing you have not spent time in a 3rd world country, nor do you speak from an educated or experienced position in economic development. The fact that sweatshops exist sucks, the world we live in has many things about it that suck. These people live in crushing poverty, with little hope of bettering their situation.

Point One- sweatshops have high rates of productivity: false. Very false. They have extremely low rates of productivity compared to the West, because the workers there have low skills. Their wages also reflect their low rates of marginal productivity. Since the workers there cannot produce the same amount per hour worked they work more hours to raise their income. Are many in terrible conditions? Yes. However, most choose this arrangement because it is still better than the alternative (sustenance agriculture). Are some forced into these terrible (by Western standards) jobs? Yes, unfortunately. However, the forcing is often done by governments, as is the case with some Foxconn employees being forced into labor by the Chinese government. This is very anti-free market.
  • 1 0
 Point Two- It is moral that workers should be safe from harm: Mostly false. It is up to the individual, morally, to decide how much risk they should accept. A risker job will pay more, all other things being equal. We each have different preferences for risk; there isn't a job within 100 miles of where I live that is as risky as skiing or extreme mountain biking. I, morally, should be able to choose the risk I impose on myself, but I cannot morally choose the risk others are exposed to. In the USA and Great Britain, there are thousands of rules regarding workplace safety, from the office chairs we can use to the height of the mirrors in the washroom. There is no way to could make office work as dangerous as underwater welding, or underwater welding as safe as office work. These artificial standards are not logically consistent, and there is no empirical evidence that any of this regulation improves workplace safety. Work conditions in the West are much better than developing countries because we are rich, and many people are willing to take a lower wage for safer conditions.

Third Point- Human Rights are Non Negotiable- What, exactly, are human rights, and more importantly, who gets to decide what they are? Are they different than civil rights? Or how about just regular rights? These issues are much more complex than can be argued in a comment section, and it is not as clear cut as you describe. People who work in horrible conditions usually have no better alternative. These dangerous sweatshops are still safer than low-level agriculture and pay far more. Actively campaigning to shut down sweatshops hurts poor people. It makes developing economies worse off. There is a sweatshop-style factory in Viet Nam that was mentioned in one of the stories in the link above. The number one complaint from employees ("slaves", to you) was that the factory wasn't hiring more; they wanted jobs for their family members as well because it pays so much better than the alternative.
  • 1 0
 Hmm, well it's a very interesting reply you've taken the time to post. And I definitley agree that a simple comments thread couldn't be very persuasive.I'd be interested in seeing some evidence to suggest that making T-shirts in the UK is more productive than making Ts in the Far East. I am open to evidence I don't yet know about, which as you've said, I'm not experienced in this area. I commute with a Geographer who knows this story very well. I'll chat more to her about her thoughts as someone who is extremely well read.
  • 2 0
 @bluechair84 its a breath of fresh air to discuss something on the internet civilly and intelligently.
  • 76 14
 I don't care where stuff is made, but 1200 for a rear shock is just f****ng ridiculous.
  • 10 13
 honestly... but i guess if you REALLY care about your ride quality. then i guess it'd be reasonable. but most people who need something like this have a mechanic to set their shock up perfectly and they don't pay for anything bike related hahaha
  • 24 11
 @vroomvroompartystarter So you would go into a Ferrari dealership and say that same thing?...
  • 29 8
 No, obviously he wouldn't because he never needs to step foot in a ferrari dealership. He's not in the market for a ferrari, but would rather buy a corvette z06 which can hang with a 458 in most situations. This shock, like a ferrari, is purely a status symbol when things like vivid and dh are winning world cups at a fraction of the price of this.
  • 32 15
 Until it needs to turn a corner anyway...
  • 17 9
 hahahaha this isn't the sixties anymore grandpa. I'm no chevy fanboy but corvettes can pull some pretty huge lateral gs these days.
  • 16 8
 There's more to cornering than just circling a skid pad in one direction.
  • 12 6
 how does that change the fact it can pull gs going left AND right?
  • 11 5
 @jaycubzz that Corvette was impressive on Top Gear at the weekend but I can't help wondering if it will fall apart after a few thousand miles, like the Ferrari.
  • 18 5
 @jaycubzz if you think world cups are being won on off the shelf vivid and dhx models, then clearly you don't know shit about mountain biking.
  • 5 3
 actually the new stingrays are incredibly good at cornering. GM has really got some incredible suspension. that same suspension design was actually bought off them by ferrari for the new 458 from the caddy CTS. if i'm not mistaken.
  • 8 0
 @matteosignorelli Ferrari's are a proven product, this is a brand new shock drastically more expensive than the competition
  • 2 2
 But always the frame Printed that: MADE IN USA or MADE IN TAIWAN.
  • 2 2
 I do care where stuff is made but I still don't think it's right to push the prices to such shocking levels.
Magura forks are made in Germany (or at least some of them) and their price isn't anywhere near $1200 (if I don't count the ones with electronic suspension).
  • 17 27
flag Boardlife69 (Feb 27, 2015 at 2:15) (Below Threshold)
 Fuk your Ferraris, Fuk your corvettes, fuk supporting war, death and terrorism so you can fill up your tank. Err I mean "protect your freedom". Tesla all the way baby. Electric is the future because it's past was hijacked by 'Merican greed.
  • 7 1
 @Jaycubzz, if you believe the Fox and SRAM shocks winning world cups are the same as the ones you can buy for yourself you're dreaming. I wonder how much one of those individually tuned, secret parts shocks would cost if you could buy it (and don't forget the Ti spring as well), which you can't, I bet the PUSH unit would be competitive in that light.
  • 7 2
 Yes, the shock is expensive. But it is a small-run part from a small manufacturer. If you don't like the price then don't buy it, if you can afford it then go nuts.

Not all of us are poor students anymore and manufacturers have no "responsibility" to limit their pricing. They will naturally pick a price point that maximizes their profits, not their sales numbers. If they don't think the higher price tag will offset the lower unit sales they wouldn't charge it.
  • 3 0
 I didnt realize the shock gives you 600 more horse power on your ride.... . Great analogy bud lol not even close to the same thing
  • 7 0
 @Boardlife69, Tesla is owned by an American billionaire...
  • 4 2
 The haters ought to check out another website's interview with PUSH for better insight on this shock. Before I understood the cost but ... after listening and thinking more on it... I WANT one.
  • 7 0
 @royal 28. suspensions are not that complicated.....any shock or suspension can be revalved, shimed, heavy or lighter oil, etc etc etc......its the time it takes to try different variations of the above stated. for example if you are a downhill rider and you have a fox rc4 you set it up to its settings that are best for you, ie HS LS etc...then what you cant achieve from the external adjustments you achieve through internal adjustments....that is why shops like avalanche, push, S4, suspension werxs, etc exist in the first place...you also have to take in the linkage set up, leverage ration, geometry of the bike wheel size, riding style, track preferance, etc etc etc.........AND NO SHOCK NO MATTER THE PRICE IS GOING TO DO ALL THAT, IN FACT A 100 000$ shock cant do that....so buya good shock.......used even and have a pro set it up for you and save your 1200 for beer and hookers!
I am all for hype but really.....your paying for gagets and you still have to have them set it up for you???????
  • 7 1
 Lot's of people who really don't know what the corvette is capable of here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times

It's actually one of the fastest cars you can buy, and that's without even using "for the money". "For the money", it, along with the Nissan GTR are easily the best bang for your buck.

The corvette holds the 8th fastest lap time on the Nurburgring for a production car. The only cars ahead of it are: The radical SR8 and the donkervoort d8Rs (both which highly toe the line of "street legal production" since they are basically glorified go-karts). Then you have the Nissan GTR and Dodge Viper ACR which are good. The other 3 cars that beat it are a Gumpert Apollo, Lexus LFA, and a Porsche 918 Spyder... all cars that are at LEAST 3x more expensive.

Now for cars that are behind it:Porsche 911, Maserati MC12, Pagani zonda, Ferrari Enzo, Porsche Carrerra, Ferrarri 458, Koenigsegg CCX and CCr, Lambo Murcielago, Ferrarri 430, Mercedes SLR Mclaren, Mercedes SLS, a bunch more Lambos...

Long story short, it clearly holds it's own... and considering you can get a ZR1 for a little over $100,000... well, enough said.
  • 9 7
 ^^^^^thats the track......but to take it further if you want street ability......mitsubishi evo, wrx sti, easily kitted to 500HP with all wheel drive and for a bargin price of less than 50k not to mention good on gas, great in the winter which is important in my neck of the woods, very small and manoverable 4 doors and a usable trunk, everyday driver, it can do it all.....you could say it is ENDURO!
  • 4 7
 And I'd always buy the Porsche. I'd buy a used Porsche before I'd buy the bowtie. That actually perfectly illustrates why people build expensive things and why people will always buy them, if they can swing it.
  • 2 1
 Id love to know exactly what tickles your fancy about this shock.
  • 6 1
 Why are you so interested in my fancy?
  • 5 1
 You guys are absolutely right, the corvette is definitely one of the highest performing cars out there especially considering how much they ask for it. The difference though between a 458 and a corvette is about refinement. Yes it's better than it was and looks all right but you just cannot compare the corvette in initial build quality over a Ferrari or a Porsche for example. This is where the huge price difference comes from not the performance. And just to make things clear, I'm not speaking about materials or chassis engineering(the corvette has a pretty dope aluminum chassis), but assembly quality and method, ergonomics, equipment etc. You wont find a flimsy wobbly plastic trunk panel on a 458 like you will on the rear end of a corvette, all the electronics and driver assistance inside aren't based from a cavalier. I know that stuff doesn't affect lap times but it affects price and customers who look for a Ferrari will never consider a Corvette because of this.
  • 12 2
 Can we please stop talking about cars on here. There are plenty of places to have a pissing match over which car is better than the other and Pinkbike is not one of them.
  • 2 2
 ^^^^apparently it is! Another pink bike nazi, let the boyz be boyz, and boyz are into cars
  • 10 1
 @Boardlife69 Greed is everywhere not just 'Merica' so spare us the self righteousness. If not explain the price of Swiss chocolate and watches to everyone here. I tire a little of Western Europe's judgement of America. I have lived in Western Europe and the US, greed exists both places in nearly equal amounts.
  • 4 7
 Your right greed is everywhere, especially in the western world. The difference is Swiss Chocolate companies are not using intelligence agencies to set up "terrorist groups" for an excuse to bomb the living hell out innocent people including children so our chocolate companies can steal their resources. There is a huge difference in asking more money for better quality products vs blanket bombing for resources. My main point was Tesla, electric cars, renewable energy will hopefully change the geo-political landscape away from these oil mongrels. I wasn't blaming the American people, just your corporations and government because they are the ones who making all the worlds trouble.
  • 1 0
 I'm entitled to liking German cars... Here in the states you see Corvette's EVERYWHERE. They are also flimsy -fast- and incredibly competent ...but they lack in refinement.
  • 3 2
 @Boardlife69 Thanks for having a civil conversation on this. You do realize there's no separation between the people and governments. American people make up the government and companies as do Swiss people in their companies and gov't. Its really easy to blame the nebulous companies and government but they really are a reflection of the people's character and values in the country. We are the problem and there is no "they." If we want change it has to start with us and how we live. War is disgusting and horrible and on a rare occasion necessary. You can attempt assign motives from your limited perspective but you can't directly connect the price of a MTB shock to war. Should we assign motives to why the Swiss don't really help any place in the world? Or why a proposal to ban minarets was being voted on in Switzerland? Not those aren't fair either. Every country has its issues and again western Europe is not free from their participation in the middle east conflict either. Your connection between bombing and the price of a MTB shock is ridiculous. Its like saying swiss chocolate and watch prices are connected to protecting stolen Jewish wealth in Swiss banks it not a good or logical conclusion.
  • 1 0
 I can see two choices we all have maybe three in regards to a $1200 shock.
1. Complain a lot and hate Push.
2. Take your $$ and buy something else that works nearly as well.
3. Work really hard and earn a lot of money so that price doesn't limit what can buy.
  • 2 0
 Not to take away from the bike topic and not saying the bike industry participates. The main argument for outsourcing or not being made here is quality. But what about the ethics, or lack there of, involved in globalized mass production? You should care. Not only where the products you use are made but who is making them and by what means. I was shocked to find out how many slaves (29) are used to support my lifestyle. The reality is where it is made and how does matter.

What's your Slave footprint? It'd be interesting to see.
slaveryfootprint.org
  • 1 0
 @Royal28 hahaha my bad, im not sure how i let factory programs slip my mind, a huge overlook on my part.

but still, it highlights the point that no average rider needs a shock at this price point.

not to mention what do people ride on at a regional/national level to get to the world cup series? off the shelf vivids and dhxs are still race winners, albeit at a slightly lower competition level.

therefore i feel my argument still stands: this is purely a status symbol, and is absolutely not necessary.
  • 1 0
 @Royal28 ding ding ding.
  • 1 0
 I find it very nice " wink wink" lol
  • 2 1
 @wilsonm73 Yes you can and should separate the people from their government. Some countries have the illusion of having a democracy but the real power rest in the hands of a very few who have held such power for generations and so e for over hundreds of years. Yes, Switzerland does help the world, and much more effectively. Switzerland has been involved in every single major war, conflict or natural disaster for over 200 years. Maybe you've heard of the Red Cross. It's a Swiss organization that has many chapters, including an American chapter.
  • 1 0
 Red Cross is the Swiss flag inverted.
  • 2 0
 @Boardlife69 Kudos to the Swiss on the Red Cross, we have scores and scores of organizations like the Red Cross.

I think you missed my point which was its unfair to assign motive behind the world's perception of the Swiss only caring about themselves. Just like its unfair to say the ridiculous things that the US isn't a democracy and the big business and gov't are ruining the world and causing all the problems. You could pull the US out of the world and have all the same problems because people are people no matter what. Hunger, Aids, Climate Change, Terrorism, Poverty, Wars would all still exist. Some other country would fill in the gap where the US has. Lay off the conspiracy movies and websites for a bit eh? Like I said its too easy and answer to blame the nebulous they and not look ourselves in the mirror. Its even easier to look across the ocean and blame other countries rather than work on the problems in your own. How much do you give to charities, help the poor, conserve energy, have a small carbon foot print? Its starts with people making small changes.

My German neighbors used to tell me they did everything better too sometimes they did things better, sometimes not. Its pretty arrogant to claim the Swiss help the world much more effectively. The Swiss government isn't perfect nor the Swiss people. The US is jacked up at times too and many Americans believe they are the best as well. If you've traveled a bit you know people are people no matter where you go.

PUSH is a small company with 30 or so employees about 1.5hrs from me in Loveland, Colorado. They service my Fox products every winter and give me great service at a reasonable price. There's no way they're a part of some alleged conspiracy to rape and pillage the world over a MTB shock. That's just not how things work.
  • 23 1
 I don't care where it's made, a good product is a good product regardless where it's been made. I do care a little where the company is based and where my money is going to but ultimately if the product does its job well enough then my decision is made.
  • 1 1
 I don't really care where a product is made as much as who the money is going to. If chain reaction wants to sell me a lynskey made in the USA but my local shop wants to sell me a specialized made in taiwan, I am going with the specialized.
  • 18 0
 yeah why isn't quality the main factor here - i don't care where its made or what it costs - i just want something built right
  • 14 0
 In the UK the weather is either $h1t or wet and $h1t.
Some times a product that was designed/built in the UK is worth the extra £££ because it has been product tested in our wet muddy slop and will out last a similar product that was designed/built/tested in the hot sunny climates of almost every other country.
  • 13 1
 Not at the moment, mountain biking is an expensive sport, especially when you're 15, and unfortunately i haven't found a money growing three yet. But if a Banshee with a push shock, Race Face- and hope parts were equally expensive to a bontrager equipped trek, then i know which one i'd choose.
  • 2 0
 Trek is Bontrager in case you didn't know.
  • 14 1
 I doesn't matter where things are made as long as they are made right and the quality is really high. There is no reason why a frame welder in America is no better at his/her job than a frame welder in Taiwan.
  • 12 5
 Duh everyone knows that. It's about who's economy you'd rather support. I'd rather the guy down the street with a mortgage and a family have a thriving small business than the over-seas companies I have no ties to, not that I have anything against them
  • 4 2
 Where do you think most your bike products come from??
  • 9 2
 Oh also its perfectly ok to sell Canadian products overseas...that's fine and good for your economy but it's not ok to buy other peoples products from overseas no?
  • 10 3
 I'm fully aware of where everything's from. You assume too much. There's no line in the article that states one builder is better than another. It states the opposite. I'd rather my hard-earned bucks support my economy first, that doesn't mean I disagree with products being made and shipped around the world. It's about balance; I'd rather see things shifted more towards "shopping locally". Call me a hippy I guess
  • 8 1
 damn hippy
  • 10 3
 Supporting local production if somebody has one nearby is cool. You can get credit for supporting local company making stuff over seas. When I see things like ZTR rims in Europe I cringe. Why would a Euro fkr not buy 30% cheaper, slightly lighter, and probably stronger Euro made DT Swiss rims?! Then if you are to buy a rim from Asia, why not go for Superstar rims which weigh the same and cost one fkng third of a ZTR rim, that's right - 3 DS20 rims at price of one FLOW EX. What the hell is wrong with you people?
  • 5 6
 It's not hippy at all. It's anti free trade. If everyone had your attitude we would all be a lot poorer.
  • 6 3
 hamncheez, maybe we are not poor but there are many skeletons in South America, Africa and Middle ea... sorry, in the closet (if I think about it... same thing). Chosing not to know has similar consequences as knowing and not doing anything, which is the case in the era of internet. Duality is here, whether you like it or not - nobody gets everything.
  • 6 6
 We are in 2015 not 1933, all global economies are intertwined. If you think buying local will help your local economy you are gonna have a bad time.
  • 3 4
 @Narro2 So correct!

Everyone is equal in the eyes of God. The person who should get your business is the person who can provide it best- regardless of the accident of geography.
@WAKIdesigns
Free trade and capitalism has lifted the West out of crushing human misery and is doing the same to the developing world. This was not and is not at the expense of the rest of the world. European colonies during the 1800s HURT the European nations as a whole, and retarded their economic growth. A few concentrated individuals benefited from colonies, but the West (and the colonies themselves, of course) would have experienced MORE economic growth and development had there been no colonies.
  • 4 4
 Haha Hamncheez, yea right, tell it to people in Nearly every African country, Kongo in particular (which is kind of imoortant for this conversation to take place at all), Afghanistan or Iraq. Augusto Pinochet great friend of your beloved Friedman. I love you for your "the end justifies means".
  • 4 0
 Oh... here we go again
  • 2 2
 Its not "ends justify the means". Thats the exact opposite of what I'm saying. Colonies hurt both the mother nations and the colonized nations. Modern standards of living arouse in spite of it, not because of it.
  • 4 1
 Jeez that's deep!!
  • 5 5
 Free market at it's very core means nothing more but ability to sell anything to anyone at any price, you are free to do whatever you want with your products and money RIGHT? As an ideology it assumes that as long as all people on the market are allowed to trade freely, the system will regulate itself because if there if someone is cheating, the traders will sooner or later figure it out and cease making deals with him/her, competition "naturally" regulates exchange rates. In reality there will always be an issue of power and making arrangements, where one entity will use any opportunity and any mean to finish off his competition. That means speculating prices, holding products, corrupting suppliers and ultimately: stealing and murder - wait what?! Yes, I am getting somewhere with it. To prevent that you need authority, you need certain regulations, which off course can be corrupted themselves as they may suit an interest of one party and demolish the other. Whether you like it or not regulation must be there so that everybody does not kill each other. You tell me where is that vague line of what to regulate or not to regulate, I believe it is as clear as how long chain stay is long enough and here comes the second thing I mean with murder and violence: self harm and suicide. In reality, actors on the free market are not perfectly rational, contrary to what ideology assumes. They are just human beings, not machines (yes, fk you Ayn Rand) and they make mistakes: the act on impulses, desires, they cannot know everything.
  • 4 4
 Now to Free market as a system connected to globalization. It's existence, thriving of it is possible ONLY thanks to oil which is essential for exctraction of raw materials, their transformation into products and most visibly, for their transportation from one place to another. The oil boom that kicked out Free Market big time is a result of deal Roosevelt (USA) made with Saudis at Bitter Lake in 1930s. That has completely destabilized the region by giving enormous power (through influx of Western money) to Saudi Kingdom, int he environment where whole Middle East was divided in many fractions. That is particularly ironic because at this time in Saudi Arabia there was a strong movement "Wahhabism" which wanted to pretty much to unite all states and create one Islamic state, unfortunately with an idea that most of the world is rotten and they need to start a revolution which will take it to the middle ages, to times of Prophet MOhammed. Wahhabists were hunted by Saudis but their ideas live throughout all middle east. ISIS is the descendant of exactly that idea. Support of Israel as a strategic partner, an artificially created land in the middle of area West wanted to control didn't make it any better either. To cut that lesson of history, since 1930s WEST has entered a segregated yet relatively balanced Middle East and made it into an absolute mess, and now people like you Hamncheez claim that Free Market is bringing light to it. It's like raping a woman from a favela for many years, then making her as your cleaning lady, borrowing money to her family, virtually turning them to slaves to work in your garden and telling people the story that you took them out of ghetto and gave them new life in your new world, expecting everyone to clap.
  • 4 6
 Should I tell the story of African states ruled for ages by Europeans, that gave us Westeners riches that accelerated Free Market to what it is today, thanks to the second most important mean making it possible to exist at all - communication? Internet, faster transactions, virtual transactions, virtual money - modern banking anybody? All our computers are running on raw materials mined in Kongo. Be warned though, this will get really ugly, it's not going to be only about raping a girl, and believing/pretending you are taking her out of hell, story involves some serious atrocities. For alighter one, let's take Black Hawk Down - Do you know history behind Somali pirates disturbing deliveries of Playstation by attacking container ships? How Free market fished out their waters taking advantage of them being naive for accepting such small sums of money, not having ANY fishing regulations? How was your idol Milton Friedman and his workings on "Freedom" in Chile, I thought he had to use plenty of power and violence to implement the free market idea isn't it? US and slavery was a fantastic example of free trade with no regulations on goods, isn't it?

Look... You and me have blood on out hands, at least I don't brag how awesome I am for getting it there. Economical statistics don't tell the story how the numbers became what they are.
  • 2 2
 Pinochet is a criminal and he must be burning in hell right now. but I prefer to live in my country as it is rather than be living in cuba
  • 2 0
 Lets change the topic here.

Anyone been in Cuba?, that place could be a biking mecha once the regime changes. Their mointains are huge and have lots of walking trails. I am in as soon i can fly my bike into the island easier.
  • 2 1
 "Look... You and me have blood on out hands, at least I don't brag how awesome I am for getting it there. Economical statistics don't tell the story how the numbers became what they are."

Thanks for summing it up Waki, that's exactly how I feel.
  • 4 0
 Blimey I wish I never opened my mouth now!! Lol ;-)
  • 10 1
 So a gucci shock targeted at a small segment of the market represents all domestically manufactured mtb products?

"Producing an item in small batches from domestically sourced materials can result in a steep asking price."

Did PUSH try to produce a domestically sourced and manufactured, price competitive shock to go up against FOX and RS? No. They produced an extremely high performance and innovative piece of suspension that would have likely cost more to produce no matter where it was made.
  • 5 4
 Eee no. Even if we take a batch of high end coil shocks alone, Fox will outproduce PUSH by a 5000 to 1 at least, due to the fact that they are specced on thousands of complete bikes from various companies. Then add aftermarket sales and you get such insane numbers. Ironically, You could probably get quantities of 100 to 1 on sales of Pushed Fox coil shocks vs that PUSH shock. Now factor in eventual net price drop on high rnd shocks achievable due to production of tens of thousands of lower end shocks. finaly there are other companies like Cane Creek, Stendec, DVO, Öhlins, AVA, BOS offering products for people being after something more exclusive than Fox, RS, MZ (as if their top offerings weren't exclusive enough) This PUSH is surely better than stock or even Tuned FOx shocks but price wise you just cannot compete with such biblical disproportion of production. I wish them all the best with it, why not invest 1200$ on the rear end when Boxxer, 380, Fox40, Dorado, Idylle, Emerald cost more?
  • 1 0
 Huh. I don't agree with you, WAKI.

Anyways. And not all US made products are superior in quality either. Anyone who has owned an aluminum Intense knows this.

I would love to see the US manufacturing sector make a come back. Bringing those jobs and dollars back home is something I think all US citizens would like to see. Merging our new Creative Class with a new Working Class sounds utopian, and German. Both? We'll see. I hope.
  • 7 0
 Until very recently, I didn't know Renthal was a British brand-having grown up looking at all the branding on US Supercross/Motocross bikes (not to mention the MTB scene) and I bought that product because I didn't want to compromise on the handlebars on my bike. But I have to admit, when I found out they were made in the UK after the purchase, I felt glad to have supported 'British Manufacturing't...but honestly, that thought didn't enter my mind when I bought them. I bought what I perceive to be the best and would have been just as happy if it was American, German, French, Taiwanese... etc
  • 7 0
 I have a feeling if you would have asked this question a few weeks ago (before Push announced this shock) poll results would be different and you'd have way more votes for "Yes, it's a large factor, and I'll gladly spend more to support domestic production".

Knowing how many people bought Turner/Intense because they were made in the US and how many people buy Orange because they are made in the UK - I think the price of this particular product is swaying the votes slightly.
  • 4 0
 Agreed! Chris King is another good example of popular NA-fabricated products that sells for a premium. Another example: the Canadian-made Chromag frames also have a price difference with the Asian-made that is even worse (1550$ vs 800$) than the difference between the Elevensix and other top-of the line shocks. Still, everybody drools over Surface and Samurai frames. Those that don't have the money will simply by a RootDown and still be very happy.

On the other hand, in the BMX world, the made-in-the USA thing is also a selling point for aftermarket components, but the price difference is not as drastic. USA-fabricated S&M stuff is not that much more expensive than other Taiwan-made quality stuff. Same for Profile Racing. I am not too sure why it is that way, but it is a fact that locally-made BMX stuff seems more competitively priced. Maybe there are less dentists riding BMX than there are riding MTB...that probably helps keeping the prices down. Wink
  • 4 0
 Actually, in the BMX world, it's more like the companies using Asian manufacturers are raising their prices to match the U.S. made frames. It's perceived value. If it costs the same, it must be of similar quality, right?

Back to this shock.. I am sure Push isn't expecting to sell a million of them. But, they are going to sell every one they make. That's not a bad thing. It's like an S-works bike. It is a flagship product. Very expensive, low production numbers, and it shows what they can do. Fine tuning and fixing other products will still pay the bills for Push.
  • 5 0
 I wouldnt say there is an easy answer to this question. Some asian factories have decent working conditions, and some are below the image that we think of when we think of the term "sweat shop" unfortunately, as a end consumer, we aren't privvy to how the product was produced. There will always be a market for the best performing products, but if performance is equal, I would like to think that people would be willing to pay more for a product that didn't require slavery.
  • 1 4
 Sweat shops are a good thing, and critical to developing economies. www.buzzfeed.com/alexrees/8-arguments-in-support-of-sweatshop-labor
  • 18 11
 Order of preference:

Made in Germany
Made in UK
Made in Japan
Made in Taiwan
Made in France
Made in Italy
Made in US



screw China.
  • 4 3
 Y u no made in italy?
  • 8 2
 And what aboot our frames made of Sudbury nickel infused with maple syrup crystals? You don't like those??
  • 5 8
 That's really racist
  • 8 1
 How?
As far as China is concerned, they're single-handedly responsible for putting the ENTIRE US manufacturing sector out of business, due to the Chinese g-ment subsidizing their factories in order to undercut the rest of the world.
The reason it worked here is, our own government being more concerned about GM/Ford, McDonalds, and Microsoft getting into the Chinese market than they are about American JOBS, turned a blind eye to China dumping their goods on the market at FAR below what anybody else could sell 'em for, thus Walmart etc. became the single BIGGEST buyer of Chinese-made goods IN THE WORLD.
I read a stat that said something like NINETY-PERCENT of Walmart customers have or know people that have lost their job(s) due to Walmart importing Chinese-made goods on such a large scale, and their customers gladly buying them.
I personally have NEVER bought anything from there, and never will.
BTW, this PUSH shock's price has LESS to do with where it's made, and a LOT more to do with the amount they expect to sell, thus their inability to spread the R&D and manufacturing out over a large(r) number of product.
Economies of scale
  • 3 2
 Its true, much of Chinas manufacturing is subsidized, but that will hurt china in the long run and help the US in the long run. We've given the rest of the world billions in foreign aid; why not get some in return?

As for manufacturing, jobs, they have low pay, bad working conditions, and no income growth compared to newer, more tech-related jobs. These low wage jobs are leaving? Good! The average income in China is 10% what it is here- let them have those jobs. They are children of God just like you and me. That job will help lift and entire family out of mind-numbing poverty. Americans are too smart, too resourceful, and too educated to be wasting their potential in these low wage jobs. We need more engineers! More entrepreneurs! More computer scientists! More artists! More high skill, high pay jobs! Americans are the most productive people on the planet, with Britain second. We should let emerging economies grow the same way we did, and welcome them into the developed world.

As for your walmart stat- needs some citation.
  • 2 3
 Bishopsmike, I do not distinguish Cahada from US.
  • 6 1
 Wow. Not only racist. Elitisthic and Xenophobic as well. Good luck with life man
  • 1 3
 Narro, wtf are you blabbing about?
  • 1 1
 as long as its not poorly made Chinese items
  • 1 1
 Italy has some of the loosest import/export regulations. Many great 'made in italy' products have never physically been inside the 'country of origin' don't believe every thing you read. or at least understand that product labeling practices differ around the world. and must be taken with a grain of salt.
  • 4 0
 For me the problem is generic "catalogue" products that are re-branded with company logos. ANYONE can do that with a little bit of cash and a brand. The real value comes from companies that are designing unique products that advance the evolution of product design in the mtb industry. The choice of where to manufacture that product then becomes the million pound question for that company. If a company is designing the product then the manufacturing of that product becomes easier due to the tolerances set at design. There are good and bad factories all over the world. I would like to see more transparency from companies as to where and who is manufacturing our products.
  • 4 0
 Domestically made products are usually my first choice, and not only for quality purposes, but for efficiency, production responsibility, and possible import/export issues, such as the recent west coast port shutdown that has left the bike industry scrambling for product. I know that my North American-made parts will be here, on time, while friends and customers are left scrambling to get race equipment and bike stuff by spring.

It also ensures that while I may pay a premium (or relatively more), in the long run, it's worth it as warranty, replacement and service are often more accessible, inexpensive and reliable. Clearly, I think there's a strong argument for buying domestic.

However... There's also a slight chance that stuff made in the US is done oddly and inconsistently; with rare exception (such as high-end products like ENVE and PUSH) Americans aren't craftsmen anymore and don't generally understand the importance of product consistency or have consistent quality control processes, which can be a nightmare and is why a lot of companies choose to go to China or other Asian manufacturing countries -- labor is cheap, meticulous and generally ruled by repetition... Unless it's not, and then you enter the sticky situation of multi-factory manufacturing, and inconsistent quality. In the end, it's about a company's commitment level to their product. You have to know where to go.
  • 2 0
 While I generally agree with you here, I have to say that ENVE rims still have the best fit and finish of all the carbon rims available right now.
  • 1 0
 After now having been on the receiving end of that westcoast longshoreman strike, I agree that the price of piece of mind and consistently on-time product can be well worth it. Especially when there are clear deadlines and events that you NEED to have something by. I can't imagine the pinch that bike stores feel when they can't sell a product with an already relatively small demand because they simply can't get their hands on it.

I'm at a point in my life where I'm probably a producer's worst nightmare. I save too much and spend too little in their eyes, and I really don't pay any kind of premium for anything at the current time. I'll splurge here and there on a something. But if X costs more than Y solely because it was made in the USA, I'll probably go with Y. Unless there is a clear reason why the american made item is better or more importantly will last longer. I'd love to support US and local brands all the time with every purchase, but its just not a priority unless there are tangible benefits.

Buying a bike recently from an American company, I had no problem that they actually make their frames in Tawian. Clearly there's some benefit to that. Less expensive? Great! Is it better and more consistent quality? Who knows, but it meets the rigors of their standards so there's no reason why it won't meet mine. Glad that the carbon components were North American made though.
  • 2 0
 "I disagree, it's a very good game, but I think Donkey Kong is the best game ever."
  • 2 0
 Wait, what are we talking about again?
  • 2 0
 @WasatchEnduro. Im so proud of myself for immediately recognizing that quote and saying it in my head in his voice.
  • 1 0
 Goddamn. Touché!
  • 5 0
 I definitely prefer to buy from a local company, but i generally assume (unfortunately) manufacturing is mostly offshore with pretty much 90% of everything I buy. Would be nice to see a little more equilibrium all the same.
  • 2 0
 exactly. another point is the domestically sourced raw materials....seriously? T-6061 alloy is a standard, as almost all the alloys, with precise amount of different components defining the mechanical characteristics of the materials, doesn't matter if the bauxite where you source the aluminium from is mined in australia, taiwan or america. it's all the same.
  • 1 0
 Not true. While in theory, it is all the same, there is definitely crappy aluminum, steel, glass, and whatever else, which usually comes from unreliable cost-cutting suppliers in China who source poor raw materials.
  • 1 0
 well crappy materials can be found anywhere....of course when you chose a supplier you should run tests on the material. and also during the "normal" batches, you took samples from each one and test it...this means having a good quality check plan, so that at every new batch of material corresponds a tests on the first sample you get from production so that you know when you got a good 6061 grade alu or not. of course these things cost time and money, but i guess that for the prices todays bikes are sold for, it makes sense.
  • 4 0
 I don't really care where stuff is made so long as the quality is right. Bottom line is your tech you type your reply on to this thread is probably made in China. Some quality control is China is excellent (ours is) some is not so good. Like everything you have to select your suppliers based on a selection process. As a designer this is key. Accountants want the cheapest, engineers want the best product that meets all requirements at a competitive price.
  • 6 0
 As long as it is made well and by people who are being paid right I don't care, but I do like Hope stuff so I'm willing to spend a bit more on something made in the UK.
  • 3 0
 Pretty much. As individuals, we can only support so much while still providing for ourselves and not wasting money. If the product I buy serves the function I want it to, and the people who designed and produce it are competent and get fair wages, then I'm happy.
  • 3 0
 hope components are worth that bit extra not only because they are british made, they are bombproof, but when it comes to orange bikes while they are made by the good lads of halifax, they just don't offer anything which makes paying more worthwhile as you can get a similarly spec'd giant reign for nearly £800 cheaper than a alpine AM.
  • 2 0
 Excatly what i thought! I own a Orange Five and thought about upgrading to an new Alpine.

But their understanding of "quality" and the latest price rising just aren't reasonable at all.
I had lots of cuttings in my seat tube which scratched the hell out of my thomson seatpost.
Who doesn't clean their product before shipping?! People who don't care about product-quality because they have success anyway!
And when i'm looking at the welds i'm wondering if the welder had too much or too less pints.

Don't get me wrong. I really like these bikes because of their maintenance-free construction, suspension beheavior and geometry but the quality isn't up to the price tag.
If somebody would produce bikes like this made in taiwan i would prefer to buy them.... because of quality and price-performance ratio!

When i questioned myself if all uk-products suck hope came quickly to my mind...
Hope products are worth the money!
  • 1 0
 @Ben-P Why Orange when you have Nicolai @your doorstep? And to myself: Why Nicolai when you have orange @your doorstep? Ok, i compared weld quality of both companies and Nicolai seems nicer, cleaner, immaculate, near perfect.
  • 1 0
 - At this time nicolai didn't have the frame that i wanted. The geometry of the helius frames was kind of outdated.

- The exchange rate euro-gbp was a dream for us. I paid ~1400€ for a Orange Five Frame with a Shock.
Nowadays it would be about 2200€!

- Kalle Nicolai seems to be a dick to his employees... i don't want to give him my money.
  • 2 0
 @Ben-P "Kalle Nicolai seems to be a dick to his employees... i don't want to give him my money." i will keep this in mind, cheers
  • 1 0
 I was born in Halifax, so I have soft spot for Oranges. It's not really a logical thing, guess it's the same phycology as why people cheer on their home country at the Olympics
  • 3 0
 I do like to buy EU or N. American made stuff if I can, it's a good way to make sure the guy who made it's treated fairly and gets decent pay. Not saying all Chinese products are made in sweatshops, just it's harder to tell as the labour laws there aren't as good
  • 5 2
 I am all for local produce, make no mistake about it, but... One thing we must realize that we love our lifestyle which allows us to argue whether session is better than V10 or if Demo hasn't got too short stays instead of wondering whether there'll be bread or apples in the shop tommorrow, or if there's enough gas on the gas station. We are so submerged in the wellfare that we are unable to grasp what is it built on. The interconnectivity of globalized economy makes it simply impossible to change one factor without large scale consequences especially such a big one like local produce (I mean industries in general, if mountain bike industry was to disappear tomorrow the worst that could happen would be 3 seconds of itchiness on scrotum of the least successful broker on wallstreet). So all leftists and environmentalists think for a moment that what you propose on FB groups sounds moral, righteous and fantastic BUT execution of your demands would highly probably mean a dramatic drop in wellfare, we'll get Poland from early 90s at best, and I am not sure how many of you would bare it, but general public wouldn't like it, even though they LIKE your posts and shares sometimes commenting "so true", "power to the people", "stop corporations" etc. I think many of Westeners are not aware of the state of excess they float in, and maube it should be cut down, and maybe after only few years nobody would miss two cars per household, 3 Ipads and Iphones for 12 year olds, but at the same time please you good willing, green leftists - don't behave as if your proposals will make things just better in reference to what we have today. Yes there may be more jobs if we takemanufacturing back from China but we will also earn less and won't be able to afford what we have today - for good and bad.
  • 3 1
 spot on Waki. leftist liberalista daydreamers. good in theory with warm wooly feelings. impractical to execute in the real world
  • 1 0
 Not impractical Gnarbar, because most of what the left suggests is very, very feasible. Maybe another word would be better; cataclysmic perhaps.

I think that impractical doesn't express what would happen if the policies promoted by say, the Green Party in the UK were adopted by parliament; no, rather than impractical, because they are feasible, but as Waki says, the effect would be, well, cataclysmic for our cushy lifestyles; many people's jaws would hit the floor once the felt the consequences of these policies on their consumerist lifestyles.

Opulent we are, dependent upon the criminal injustices of global free trade for our cozy lifestyles. I mean, we actually have enough free time and headspace to discuss the merits of a 1200 dollar shock!! We are lucky f*cks with our stables of bikes and most of us would scream blue murder if that changed.

Oh, most of us are too blinded by the shiny bits on our bikes to see it. I'm guilty as charged too、 even though I still rock on 26 inch, 9 speed, aluminium and am always likely too.
  • 2 0
 It matters a lot. Each and every dollar you spend is a vote. A vote on which economy you support. The dollar vote is just about the most power we have. Being that I come from a family owned machine shop in San Diego, I support local business as much as possible.
  • 2 0
 Years ago (10-15) if someone needed a complete Fox shock with reducers and coil It would set them back nearly $900 Cnd and the shop would not be making much margin on the sale. and that would have been a relatively bad shock by todays standards, and would be equal to over $1500 in todays dollars. News flash, awesome stuff is not cheap. get over it. I'd say if this thing works as a top tier shock should then its actually a terrific deal at msrp. but then kids these days have $700 phones so wth, maybe it is too cheap!!
  • 8 2
 BOS is French, and it works very well! Love it!
  • 3 10
flag loamaddict (Feb 26, 2015 at 22:33) (Below Threshold)
 Like my french bike>>>Gearbox bike, come on and check my pics out!
  • 5 15
flag wuzupjosh (Feb 26, 2015 at 22:43) (Below Threshold)
 bos is great ! proud to be sponsored by them !
  • 2 1
 ^ zero credibility right there
  • 4 0
 I didn't care until I got into business classes in college. Now I cringe reading this question, because it made me want to use my brain.
  • 4 2
 I suspect if more countries imposed stricter import duties on asian made products then you'd see less out-sourcing of manufacturing. That and stopped counting "assembly" of a bike in a country as counting as manufactured there for tax/duty purposes, when every damn part of the bike comes from the far east.
  • 2 0
 The country of manufacture doesn't really come into it for me. Im a massive believer of you get what you pay for. I like a quality product I can depend on so don't mind paying the premium that comes with it. It just so happens that a lot of the quality manufacturers are either American or British.
  • 2 0
 Where a product is made is somewhat important to me, but design is way more important. If a company is pushing new designs and innovations, then I'll likely check it out and give them support. Having their stuff made outside Asia is a bonus and a factor for a lot of products, but there are some notable exceptions.For example, many Asian factories produce very high quality carbon frames, but most Asian manufactured soft goods are significantly lower quality than their North American and European counterparts. However, companies that use cheap manufacturing (no matter where, but its usually Asia) to produce essentially a lower quality and cheaper version of another company's innovations do not get my money. They're just pursuing profit at the expense of someone else's design and innovation.
  • 5 3
 I don't care where its made, as long as its made in the same country as the brand comes from. E.g.mavic should be made in France, Shimano in Japan, hope in England etc... Outsourcing production kills national economies & robs people of jobs
  • 5 0
 Mass production robs people of jobs, not outsourcing. whether its 500 australians, or 500 chinese, the same amount of people have jobs.
  • 2 0
 Most people dont see why the price is high. There are many factors.

Push probably operates on its own machines and if you are familiar with that, they are extremely expensive. Compare it to a factory in China that operates older (which is still fine) machines, but they are making tons of different jobs for other customers too, so they can pay them back easily.

Not for Push.

The cost of material and all resources that comes in are for sure WAY higher then the same (and probably same quality) materials in China. Thats about national system / economics / taxes / sources...

On other hand, with its own shop, Push can quickly prototype and tweak any issues while with cheaper manufacturing overseas, there will be many rounds / time needed to make final tweaks.

Push can easily control quality over production in China.

And finally they are probably going to make just a few shocks. If you made 1000pcs in China, the price per shock will be lower, thats for sure.

They just run business that way. If you look at the shock, its beautiful machined thing from any angle. Does it matter at the end when you ride it? Probably not.

Im pretty sure, there is something, adjustment / feeling / performance that some of us will notice. But most of us will not. But Push is just aiming for a few guys who can afford that, pimp the bike and enjoy the extra performance / quality.

Those who runs their own business knows how things can get expensive. But there is always market for that price tag too.

Is there anyway to make it better for that price? I can imagine they offer "special unique tuning for you", "free of charge service once per season", "extra long warranty" ...just something that also makes you feel like you really own the best of the best.

Wink
  • 3 1
 I could care less how much more expensive it is for Push to make it. If it's not even remotely competitive in price point, then they shouldn't even make it. Pretty simple economics that are used in manufacturing everywhere. I'm not paying more because they have new machines to pay for. That's asinine.
  • 3 0
 But that was not my point. Of course you dont have to care about what they have to pay, for sure. Totally agree. I just wanted to point out that maybe the price is higher because of these various factors.

On other hand, you have to compare similar products. This is not Van R, and also not Kage, or even some higher market shocks. Its just top of the top shocks and thats why its priced that way. Its probably one of the most expensive in its own category. This category offers the finest adjustments and performance (and probably quality).

As i said, they should also bring something extra such as extra tunning / free service,.. you name it Wink

I just dont like discussions where people have to proof at all cost that what is the point of buying Ferrari if you can buy a Prius... but there is difference on many levels and so the price is different too.
  • 2 0
 I got your point, but I was saying that manufacturing costs don't mean a damn thing to the consumer.

My point is comparable product is half the price. On top of that, I'm the target market for product like this. I build and race on arguably the best products out there.

Another issue is bringing price points of rear shocks to this level. Other's will follow. Our $10k bike builds all of a sudden become $12k bikes, etc. It's just not a good thing for the bike market right now.

I'm usually the one to say, "if you can't afford it, don't buy it". However, there is a bigger picture with this product/price point.

I totally agree that there should be a higher level of service with products like this. Definitely helps justify the price and makes it more of an investment, which would help dramatically for most. You make very good points, good to see some sense around here! Cheers!
  • 2 0
 I like buying local when ever possible. But to be honest where products came from is is less important then the way the employees making them are treated. If the workers are treated well and are making a fair wage that what counts, not what country they work in. Now give me my fair trade certified bike to go along with my fair trade coffee!
  • 3 1
 What does "Made" mean ? where the product is assembled ? where it's welded ? where the iron, aluminium, titanium, magnesium ore comes from ? where the oil for the plastic comes from ? where the most money is made in the process ?
  • 3 0
 i do like to support my local industry, but within reasonable limits. at the end of the day, the price still counts high among the decisive factors.
  • 1 0
 I'm just in no position to be picky about the origins of the parts I buy for my bike. If I'm looking for a new DH wheelset I can't afford to go for the 'proudly manufactured' version which goes above and beyond my budget. Wherever I can afford to be picky, say, a jersey, pedels or other smaller investments, I am.
  • 1 0
 Manufacturing Quality, Company's personality and representation in our sport, and affordability are more important then where it was manufactured in my opinion. Some damn fine welders in Asia!

But as an engineer myself, who often has to find a way to source stuff - I have a lot of fun cutting through the marketing, and figuring out what catalog/factory a lot of the components in this industry originated from - and then trying to source it directly any way I can that doesn't require a minimum quantity. It's a fun challenge for me - I don't consider it being a cheapskate/trying to find the best deal - I just consider it a fun way to do the job I normally do.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns "When I see things like ZTR rims in Europe I cringe"

I have tried, and trashed, loads of rims over the years and I have to say ZTR Flow are great, along with Mavic 721s. Two of my three pairs of Flows were Hope Hoops so that partially ticked the local box, plus they were on sale.
  • 2 1
 I am not saying that quality wise ZTRs are bad. I am saying, there are lighter, stronger and cheaper products made in Europe by DT Swiss. XM401 and EX471. Then there are much cheaper products at same weight from a UK based company Superstar Components. Because if weight wasn't an issue, and you wanted something that is just super strong, you would be riding EX325s or EX729s, am I right? BTW in my experience 721s are hard to get them out of true but they dent as if side walls were made of cheese.
  • 3 0
 Couldn't fly a f*ck. All that matters is how good it is & what the price is & that has nothing to do with what man-made geographical boundary it was made inside of.
  • 1 0
 I said the same about clothing.. then I spent a third of my life selling it and I got educated on what really happens and how it impacts us. Now I prefer organic materials.

I said the same about bicycles and then I spent half my life on one. I became educated about what goes into them and why. I stopped crying about prices. I even decided to make my own parts.

I used to buy food based on price. Then I got into martial arts. Which got me into fitness. Which got me into bikes. Which got me outdoors. Now I own and operate an organically managed farm. True free range, organically raised eggs (Some darn good veggies too). During the growing season I charge $8 USD for a dozen eggs. Crazy, I know. But don't worry, I always sell out. You can bet your life I'll never buy based on price, now that at I know what goes into (or doesn't! ) the very goods we eat and the very things I spend what little hard earned money I have.
  • 1 0
 I am seeing a lot guys with custom tuned suspension on the trails these days, if it's that good how come I'm keeping up with them and passing them my with my off the self gear... Guess it comes down to rider ability as well... Just seems like most of the riders getting this done is so they can be king of bling on the trails.. Suppose if you think it'll make you faster and have the money do it, but personally I'll put the money I'll save on a holiday..
  • 1 0
 not one F***king bit... doesn't matter where its from its the reviews that count!! for example im american drive a toyota 4runner cause the usas cars are crap. the 4runner got a better review than the competition so its what i drive not some pos GM or Chrysler lemon( many of witch are not made usa)
  • 1 0
 1200 for a shock is a lot. But that is list price. If u look at list prices of other options 1200 isn't that far off. When the rc4 first came out it was $1000 list and that was over 5 years ago. So $200 more for a Custom shock is not bad.
Who pays full retail on items like this any way.
  • 1 0
 Unless you are racing at a professional level, the amount of adjustments and tune-ability available from a high end off the shelf shock or fork should be just fine. This is a niche shock and should NOT be bought by the average weekend warrior. If WE buy it abroad, THEY will charge it abroad.
As for where a product is made, ANY country has the ability to make both perfection and crap. It depends on the facility, equipment/machinery, design/engineering, QA/QC, and does the person pulling the levers know, and care about what their making or the machine their running. Look at BMX frames. Taiwan to USA made frame was maybe at most a difference of roughly $150. Taking into account the cost of 4130 tubing and minimum wage in the US seems like an acceptable spike. The mountain bike industry is all over the place, although due to materials and engineering, frame costs indicate what I am talking about and region doesn't drive the sporadic pricing either.
  • 1 0
 Honestly I think it's more about the quality of a product versus where it's made, although sometimes the two have a correlation. Would I buy local every time? If the part/product is gonna consistently break after one ride, hell no. If the product comes from who-knows-the-f*ck-where but will out live, and probably outlast your abilities to perform, then I'll only have to buy it once, and be happy.
  • 1 0
 How much is the price inflated, thats the question. I dont understand companies that charge a large amount for a product when they could charge less, and have their product appeal to a larger majority.

Ex; selling one product and making 500 profit or selling a product and profiting only 250 off of it. You will sell more of the inexpensive products and most likely make the same amount of profit, if not more, overall. More people will be able to afford it.

I will never buy this shock at this price. EVER.
  • 1 0
 I'm an organic farmer. I'll support small, local businesses until I die.

As far as auto companies and US production,Toyota actually produces the most parts in the US. (Amazing what a bit of research and education will provide.)

As far as push and their prices are concerned they will never see a penny from me.
  • 2 0
 This is no lie, Tesla just took over the old Toyota plant here in the Bay Area. You could also spy all of the new 'Yotas getting ready for transport to dealerships from the bridge in Benicia. Didn't see any US cars being staged like that around here.
  • 1 0
 ....because some kid over in China is watching them get made and shipped to the Bay Area. Come on dude, get with the programme! Wink
  • 1 0
 You're right the NUMMI plant that did the final assembly of Corollas, Tacomas, and now Tesla production is a figment of my imagination. My bad. Due to knock-down kit shipping practices the emblem on the front of the car doesn't always indicate country of origin. Thought I was agreeing with you.
  • 3 0
 The second option should read "Not reallly. I don't care where something is made, as long as the QUALITY is right."
  • 1 0
 Next poll: Do u care where the components of a product is made? The next after the next: Do u care where the machine manufacturing products is made? and next and next...endless polls. Globalization!
  • 2 0
 Yes. With all due respect to our friends over in Asia, I will never buy from there unless there is no other option available.
  • 1 0
 My next build will be ''local''.Starting with a frame from were I live, I wonder I far I'll have to look to complete it though. If Box components could get their parts to market allready that would help a lot.
  • 3 1
 I actually prefer bikes made overseas better, I've had one too many bikes give me problems with reliability from boutique USA brands. Good luck to Push and their new shock!
  • 1 1
 We must realize, those of us in the west have a much better life than those in India or China or Vietnam. Someone at the poverty line in America is in the top 17% of all humanity, and lives like a king compared to most of the world. By saying "USA first" you are denying poor, developing countries the chance to build a manufacturing base, get more skilled workers, and are preferring the rich over the poor. I think God loves all his children equally, and the origin of the country has 0 impact on my purchasing decision
  • 2 0
 I appreciate your outlook hamncheez but I think it is a little naive to believe that companies are using countries with lower wages to help them develop their communities. They are using them purely to reduce the cost of manufacturing.
  • 2 0
 OP is super naive
  • 1 0
 I agree, the companies are operating in their own best self-interest. So are the workers. However, this is the power of free-market capitalism. Two people with entirely different goals can make each other better off by working together. They can even hate each other and be all-out racists, but still benefit from working with each other. Google UN development goals. In ~1990, the UN set goals to reduce the amount of the world living in poverty, defined by less than $1.25 of income a day, by half. They wanted to do this by 2015, but instead this goal has been met 5 years early in 2010. Another goal to was to half the number of people who don't have access to clean drinking water by 2015, again met 5 years early. Why? While there are many factors in a global economy, the two biggest were increased free trade and foreign investment in China and India.
  • 1 0
 fantastic........so when there are 9bn starving humans on the planet, ravaged by war, disease, weakness, and lawlessness, we can thank the UN
  • 1 0
 Why do you think there will be 9 billion starving humans? With modern farming techniques, the earth can support more now than ever will less farmland. The world is getting more peaceful, more abundant, and more conflict free than ever before, mostly thanks to the free exchange of goods and ideas. Also, as incomes rise birthrates drop. The best population control is to make everybody rich.
  • 2 0
 over farming and overproduction. China won't even be able to feed itself, US has major concerns about securing water and basic foods. crops are requiring more and more intensive ways of growing them. read the actual news not the propaganda.

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/09/140918-population-global-united-nations-2100-boom-africa
  • 1 1
 That very same link cites another study that puts the human population cap at 9 billion, but thats besides the point. With current agricultural techniques, we can easily sustain 10-15 billion people. Google "the population bomb" or "Simon–Ehrlich wager" and see that the Malthusian, end of the world, run out of food prediction has happened over and over again, and every time it has been proven wrong. The last 30 years has seen an unprecedented rise of the poor masses out of crushing hunger and poverty. There simply is no evidence that things are getting worse. All the evidence points in the opposite direction. Thanks to work by people like Norman Bourlag (google him as well) and modern farming techniques, wealth and equality is our future, if we stay on the road of open, free markets and free trade.
  • 1 0
 Norman Bourlag's work, while incredible, is reaching its end. We need a "Transgenic" Green Revolution to see yield gains like that again because a lot of our staple commodities are seeing yield plateaus. Even on the animals side, we've optimized the genetics of broilers to the point that we really can't reduce feed conversion ratio any more. More important is food distribution. In the West, we waste just shy of 50% of the food we produce--and that's only household waste (Ref: George Morris Centre, Guelph, ON). In developing countries, at least 50% is wasted before it even reaches the home.

What we need are investments in food infrastructure. That means proper harvest technology, shipping and storage methods that don't spoil the crop, ROADS and TRAINS to get food to markets. Right now, I don't think free trade is promoting these investments in agriculture, and the countries that need them most don't have the stability to provide them (arguably due to the interference of America/Canada/EU). American agriculture's favourite catch phrase is "feeding the world", and it's true. America can produce corn, soy, rice, wheat, cotton, and hundreds of fresh produce crops/food cheaper and more efficiently (less environmental impact per kg of food) than just about any other nation in the world. Unfortunately, that means a lot of that production gets dumped into developing countries where farmers cannot compete. Why would a Ugandan buy local maize when America can sell cheaper corn via Chicago, and even sends boatloads worth in aid? Hell, there's a road in NY just south of Niagara Falls that has enough dairy farms to crush the industry in SW Ontario if we get rid of our protections.

Free trade isn't some silver bullet to food security, in a lot of ways its a barrier. Maybe free trade of investments could improve infrastructure, but I doubt those improvements would result in more food in the mouths of local residents.
  • 1 0
 Is it bad form to reply after a weekend of skiing and not being on the internet?
  • 1 0
 Not at all.
  • 2 0
 If iPads were made in US from locally sourced components, they'd cost $15000. Fact.
  • 1 0
 If its made in the USA then it wouldn't get stuck in the ports like the rest of the stuff coming from overseas thats a plus I guess!
  • 1 0
 I don't think racing shocks for motorcycles even cost that much. My trek cost $2000, and I think that's a lot of money for something without an engine and skinny wheels
  • 2 0
 don't care where it is made so long as the product is made well and not over priced
  • 3 1
 If it have a good quality, who cares?
  • 4 2
 Where's the option "As long as it isn't Made in China"?
  • 1 0
 I thought about buying one of the Push shocks, then decided to buy a Float X and a Vorsprung Corset. Saved myself $740.
  • 2 0
 I like to buy stuff designed in Germany. Cant beat German Engineering!
  • 2 0
 ....except in ww2.

....you guys actually thought those tight tolerances in the German tanks would survive all that mud and dirt?!
  • 1 0
 If that shock was something for a road bike Bicycling Magazine would refer to it as a "bargain piece".
  • 2 0
 Its all about customer support.
  • 1 0
 I like my frames done in taiwan Big Grin frames and peeps from that little island are awesome.
  • 2 0
 it is not about where it's made it is about QC.
  • 1 3
 Richard Nixon opened up trade with Maoist China - there went American and Canadian jobs. We the People lost our strenght as the government that grade school teachers told us we were - to greedy executibes and cheap CHINESE PRODUCTION!
  • 5 1
 I think Chinese are people too. I think God loves them as much as white people in North America, and they are just as deserving of a job.
  • 2 0
 Breath in toxic air and work 12 hours a day only for getting paid $20 daily without insurance. U can take those, u can have the job.
  • 1 0
 Prefer products from my countrymen but I'm no isolationist. Ill still buy chicom stuff.
  • 1 0
 I buy quality. Most of the time, that means local by default, but not always.
  • 2 0
 Also, trading strengthens economies.
  • 1 3
 or you can get a 100% custom valved shock from Craig at Avalanche for around $700 that's made right here in the US...
www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/woodie.html

THE MOST RELIABLE SUSPENSION PRODUCTS PERIOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

take the money you save over the Elevensix and get a season pass at your favorite mountain or something Smile
  • 2 0
 Robo Cop is made in China.
  • 2 0
 Domestic product sourced by a supplier that sourced it somewhere in Asia
  • 2 0
 $1200 bucks, im shocked!!
  • 1 0
 Couldnt care less. I think my nukeproof if taiwan
  • 5 6
 Proudly made in XX just a MARKETING slogan, so the greedy businesses can position right behind u, unzip his pant, F u a little harder and deeper.
  • 1 0
 Where is answer: "If works great and price is ok, i don't give a f*ck."?
  • 1 1
 would you ever buy a carbon enduro bike that was made in China for $1200 new. i thought not.
  • 1 0
 This was a shocking article Smile
  • 1 0
 not to mention motorcycles probably deal with more energy than a bicycle
  • 1 1
 It's inline with other sports. The suspension for my Evo was $5,200 so thats $1,300/shock
  • 1 1
 Not exactly but I do like buying products made in the US because well I like living here. Merica'.
  • 2 1
 Avalanche !
  • 1 1
 I could spend all day reading this, how interesting
  • 1 0
 ALL made in China,right?
  • 1 1
 Chromags has the best product in my oppinion
  • 2 2
 no
  • 3 6
 You America haters suck.... You down vote a guy who is proud of his Country and the quality manufacturing that goes down... Hates us cuz you anus... AMERICA
  • 1 3
 never buy car parts made in Mexico.
  • 1 0
 what about ford f-series trucks , mustangs, chevy trucks, dodge trucks, toyota Tacoma's, and their components? you would be surprised how much stuff is assembled or produced in mexico. NAFTA- ftw
  • 2 0
 was more referring to replacement parts. OEM parts meet quality requirements set by the vehicle maker. I've had several active auto mechanics tell me the same thing about replacement parts. primarily replacement seals/gaskets, alternators, water pumps and power steering pumps should be avoided when possible.
  • 2 5
 I'll buy most anything as long as it's not Chinese crap!
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