Random Products Part Four - Interbike 2012

Sep 20, 2012 at 1:36
by Mike Levy  

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Ghost Musashi at Interbike

Updated Musashi DH-1
We got up close and personal with the Musashi at the most recent Sea Otter gathering, but One Ghost Industries' front man, David Meredith, has now completed an evolved version of the 203mm travel downhill bike that deserves another look. The updated Musashi DH-1 is assembled around an entirely new front triangle that sports a mega-slack 62° head angle, raked out even more from the original's 64° stance. This number could, of course, be tweaked by adjusting the stanchions in the fork crowns, or with an angle-adjusting headset, but we're willing to be that the Musashi DH-1 is quite comfortable pointing it down the steep and fast bits in stock form. Meredith said that his goal when designing the new bike was to "create a machine that a World Cup racer would be comfortable on," he explains, "which is why I also lengthened the bike's top tube slightly". Another big change is the tube's drastic downward slope that gives the rider some breathing always important room.

The bike's re-worked front triangle features a massive I-beam section in place of the previous version's round seat tube that, according to Meredith, adds quite a bit of rigidity to the chassis. That extra stiffness was a major goal of the redesign, enough so that the frame actually weighs slightly more than the old Musashi: 9.5lb vs. 9.2lb with a FOX DHX RC4 coil shock. A window machined into the lower portion of the I-beam allows the bike's lower link to be joined together with a bolt-on bridge, and the linkage also receives larger sealed bearings.

Ghost Musashi at Interbike

While the latest Musashi DH-1 frame looks quite different, it utilizes One Ghost Industries' proven 'Moto*GP' dual link suspension layout. The design features low leverage ratio of just 2.46:1, and the shock is also attached to both the upper and lower link to creating a floating shock that isn't mounted to the front triangle. Although the bike pictured here is equipped with a DHX Air, the top-end production versions will come fitted with an RC4 DHX.

Ghost Musashi at Interbike

A lot of downhill bikes out there feature some sort of integrated bump stops to protect the frame from being damaged by the fork slamming into it during a hard crash, but One Ghost Industries' has been quite crafty about creating their own system. Instead of bolting on a set of bumpers, Meredith has had a tube welded (which is actually a section of their Candy Components handle bar) completely through the downtube, allowing a standard-sized rubber bar plug to be fitted. Pretty clever.
www.oneghost.com




Steve Peat s Worlds bike at Interbike

World Champ Specials
The Santa Cruz booth is always guaranteed to have some great looking bikes in it, but this selection took it to a new level. This year marked Steve Peat's twentieth World Championships, an anniversary that most certainly required some special kit. His Syndicate race bike, a carbon V10 complete with an Enve-manufactured carbon rear end, was done up in Union Jack colours to celebrate, with many components made to match. Custom decals were produced for the white lowers of his FOX fork as well, and even his Burgtec direct mount stem was anodized for the occasion.

Steve Peat s Worlds bike at Interbike

While many of us can only dream about fitting our bike with a set of carbon fiber Enve rims, Peat's Worlds bike is spec'd with a set of custom painted hoops that match the red, white, and blue colours of the rest of his machine. Even the e*thirteen chain guide and 37 tooth ring commemorate the event.

at Interbike

Peat wasn't the only Syndicate rider with a tricked out bike; his teammate Greg Minnaar was also flying the flag of his home country, albeit in a bit more subtle manner. The South African rode his V10 to his second World Championship title, with his first coming way back in 2003 - talk about longevity! His bike may not be as flashy as Peat's, but it sports factory-level FOX suspension, including the RAD (Racing Applications Development) fork, and a slew of lightweight, carbon fiber Enve components.

One of the more interesting details of Minnaar's V10 was his stem setup. While a low and wide position seems to still be the trend at the amateur level, riders at the peak of the
sport continue to run higher and higher bar heights, as evidenced by the stack of custom-made spacers sitting under his Burgtec stem. Greg is quite a tall guy, which obviously plays a role in where he wants his bar to be positioned, but even taking that into consideration, his setup is quite extreme. He was obviously quite comfortable with it, though, given that he took the win on the Leogang Worlds course.
www.santacruzmtb.com




SE at Interbike

Big Wheeled SE
If you've had your fill of carbon fiber and suspension leverage-speak, it might be time for a look at something simpler. A lot simpler. SE is a name that has deep roots in the BMX world, and it shows in their 29" Big Ripper, a bike that is part of their Retro Series lineup. Is it a 29"-wheeled BMX bike? Whatever you want to call it, it looks like it would be fun to blast around on. The 29" Big Ripper retails for $599 USD, which is actually far less than retail price of a single Enve carbon rim.

SE at Interbike
www.sebikes.com




Uvex at Interbike

New German Helmets
Uvex has a number of new-to-the-US helmets on display, with the great looking i-vo cc pictured above being one of them. The 270 gram lid features twenty four vents, with the forward openings covered with mesh to keep the bugs out. It uses Uvex's ratcheting Fas-chin strap system that allows riders to easily adjust strap tension with the push of a button, and its IAS band is adjustable in both tension (via the dial at the rear of the helmet) and height. The made-in-Germany i-vo cc goes for a very reasonable $85 USD, and is available in the 'petrol blue mat' shown here or a more subtle 'black mat' colour.

Uvex at Interbike

Uvex at Interbike

The HLMT 9 full face was available in Europe last season, but 2013 is the first year that it can be purchased in North America, with Uvex being required to construct the full face from a slightly denser EPS foam material in order for it to gain a North American CPSC rating. Five sizes are available, XS through to XL, with the full face using two different shell sizes spread across the range. A medium HLMT 9 weighs in at 1050 grams, and you can chose from either a white/green colour combo or the black/blue pictured above. The HLMT 9 is manufactured in Germany, and retails for $169 USD.
www.uvex.com




Magura at Interbike

Modulation King
Their ultra-light MT8 brake scores most of the attention, but the $104 USD MT2 makes a lot of sense for a rider who is looking for the excellent modulation that Magura's brakes are known for, but don't require the gram-saving bling. We've spent quite a bit of time on Magura's brakes over the last few seasons and have to say that while their initial bite isn't quite as strong as some other options, they offer a useable feel on the trail that trumps the competition. The MT2's Carbotecture master cylinder body and trim caliper adds up to a 345 gram system weight, only 67 grams heavier than the $269 USD MT8 stoppers, and they should offer near identical stopping power.
www.magura.com



Rally Porsche in the GoPro booth at Interbike

Best in Show Award?
The GoPro booth can always be counted on to have some sort of amazing vehicle in it, which also means that we can count on losing about an hour's worth of time each day staring at it. Last year it was the GoPro Monster Sport SX4 that Japanese driver Nobuhiro 'Monster' Tajima took to the summit of Pikes Peak International Hill Climb in record time, and this year it was this beautiful recreation of the Porsche 953 that was manufactured specifically for the Dakar Rally. The original version put out 300bhp, and featured a manually controlled 4x4 system that was used to take the car to victory in the 1984 edition of the rally by Rene Metge and Dominique Lemoyne, while the car above is an all-wheel-drive remake that is based off of a road going 1989 Porsche. We have to admit that this year's Interbike show seems a touch stale when it comes to interesting bikes and components, but this stunner certainly goes a long way to filling that void.
gopro.com

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95 Comments

  • + 41
 Don't like the tyre clearance at the back on that Musashi DH-1. Our British mud would have something to say about that.
  • + 7
 its like a mix of Kona Operator and a Sunday
  • + 11
 More like a Sunday and a Glory.
  • + 1
 I remember thinking about the original, "It seems like they took a bunch of ideas from different suspension designs and just mashed them all together."
  • + 13
 Your British mud may also have something to say about the slot on the frame that the lower link runs through...structurally that seems like it may be a good idea but functionally...I can just hear the mud grinding between the frame and the link on a muddy course. I don't know...maybe there is more clearance there and the photos just don't do it justice but it looks fairly tight.
  • + 6
 That musashi looks terrible for mud, i have to agree. That sliding rail bit will just clog with mud and hinder suspension performance, not great :/ plus the ha looks much much steeper than they made it out to be...
  • - 2
 Just run smaller tires? a 1.9 will fit in with plenty of room to spare Razz
  • + 1
 I'm REALLY interested to see that.. Ghost are/were (Solely in LA now???) from the NW US... Here in Oregon we've got mud that rivals PEAT bogs for deep and gooey, and to see that kinda clearence is really confounding... I think they moved down to the LA area, so perhaps the dry dusty trails of the South are getting to them :wink: I LOVE what they've done though, it's bloody GORGEOUS and I think on the right course where mud wasn't an issue it would FLY. Still as a fellow mud rider, I gotta say I'm VERY skeptical of the design to work in the slop.
  • + 1
 No worries In the Mud, I've tested the new bike with 0 issues of clogging or slowing the bike down, any other ride questions about the bike feel free to ask, thus far I have been the only one to ride/race it..
  • + 1
 Sweet... anything you DON'T like about it???
  • + 2
 still working on finding something i don't like about this one rides, time will tell it hasnt spent quite enough time in the dirt yet, I can tell you the rider ergonomics on this bike are far more suiting for most riders than the last..
  • + 1
 the Musashi DH-1 looks like Polygon FRX 2010 model... pretty similar fss floating link
www.bukalapak.com/system2/images/1/0/7/5/8/2/3/large/frx-1.JPG?1337948809

And, it is similar to Mondraker .... which is I will choose the Mondraker Summun in any day!
  • + 0
 like Trek, KTM
  • + 1
 looks like a IH sunday and 2007 IH 7 point. tire clearance would not ride well on hard sticky mud
[Reply]
  • + 16
 I have to ask: what's going on with your interbike coverage, pb? I'm used to like 10-15+ ride reports from the outdoor demo, and huge articles with like 60 or more photos of sick new bikes from inside. Is interbike really this bad this year? Have you guys decided to devote less time/resources to covering it?
  • + 1
 ^ This x 2... very odd not to see the ride reports and the typical extensive coverage and photo's...

Maybe the "Where the Trail Ends" premier is just too much for one week??? I know I have watched it a few times already Wink
  • + 15
 @steezysam - I hear ya. There is certainly A LOT less to get excited about at this year's show, which means less content. The other factor is that we now attend both Eurobike and the Taipei Bike Show, so we have already shown the majority of new products. Overall, there is WAY more tradeshow coverage when you combine the three shows but yes, there is certainly less from Interbike alone, although we feel that the coverage that we do is of much higher quality than that of a few years back.

Regarding ride reports from the Dirt Demo, the terrain is so lose and sketchy, and there is very little time to setup the bikes properly, both facts that make us trying to gather a proper feel for the bike, one that we'd feel good about relaying back to the readers, nearly impossible.
  • + 2
 "Regarding ride reports from the Dirt Demo, the terrain is so lose and sketchy, and there is very little time to setup the bikes properly..."

^This! It's awesome to have a great number of rigs to test in one place, but the trail conditions make it such that you're really testing tires more than anything at Bootleg Canyon.
  • + 2
 Eurobike was last week, there's no point showing everything twice. I reckon, put a load of time and coverage into the Devinci Wilson Carbon. I can't get enough of it!
  • + 1
 Funny, "ask and ye shall recieve" aye... Now were getting more and more of the Interbike stuff...

@mikelevy, I'd say I felt sorry for you having to do all that "work" (and I'm sure it's not all fun, combined with being away from the family, dealing with flying/airports etc can certainly be taxing...) BUT, I'm just too jealous of the parties and "stuff" you get to do for work that I can't Wink hahahaha
[Reply]
  • + 1
 The funny thing is that this is the 3rd year of that 29" bmx bike from SE. Late to the party on this one. They are actually super fun to ride but are just a cruiser, you couldn't ride hard on them.
[Reply]
  • + 8
 Am I the only one that compares the "Moto*GP" suspension system with the Maestro suspension?
  • + 3
 + full floater
  • + 2
 there is a single link in it which is different by the looks of things. Maestro connects the shock direct to the pivot of the lower shock linkage, this has a little arm. Aside of that it does have a very-glory-like back end.
  • + 3
 Maestro, DW Link, 'Zero' (Mondraker system), even VPP... There's essentially only 3 ways to make a suspension bike. VPP, single pivot, and 4 bar. All the tweaks can make a lot of difference, but they're still the same systems.
  • + 5
 4-bars ARE VPP designs... that the links might be longer, doesn't alter the fact that the actual pivot point that the rear wheel is arcing around, is one that's virtual in space, not physically part of the frame. So really, there's only two ways to go, a fixed pivot or a virtual pivot.
  • + 3
 didnt giant just make maestro last-minute to get around weagle back in the day, seems to me that happened but people need to believe maestro is something special
  • + 1
 the full floating shock lets them have a lower leverage ratio without making the shock even longer. Makes it so that dhx air doesn't blow through the travel too fast.
  • + 1
 Full floating shock linkages were invented by Don Richardson of Ricor Racing, the guy who also invented inertial valve shocks. He's shopped his inertia-valve shocks around to several brands in recent years, and KHS has tested them on their DH bikes. Be nice if they actually stepped up and started ordering shocks from him in sufficient numbers that he can invest in the tooling to make them (its a bit hard to mass produce bicycle sized shocks on tooling meant to build limited runs for racing motorcycles and off-road racing trucks).
  • + 2
 The point of a virtual pivot point is so you can determine the axle path of the rear wheel. All the different designs are just people trying to do the same thing without stepping on each others patents. That's why DH bikes are all starting to look the same; we are slowly reaching a pinnacle/plateau in suspension linkage design.
  • + 1
 Deeeight: The reason I made a distinction between 4 bar and VPP systems is due to VPP mounting wheel and brake on the same piece of metal, 4 bar puts a pivot between them, but I agree that they are remarkable similar systems when you boil it down.

Don't quite know why I got negative props for my earlier post? Doesn't bother me massively, I'm just intrigued.
  • + 1
 Ummmm... brit-100... they're the same thing. The "seatstay" on a traditional 4-bar layout is the swingarm bar in the 4-bar equation. That the chainstay is a long lower link and the upper link between the seatstay and mainframe is usually shorter (elllsworths not withstanding) doesn't alter things other than the pivot geometry layout. Its still the wheel and brake on a seperate piece of metal, same as on VPP's, Maestro, DW-link, etc.

Perhaps you're being fooled into thinking that the linkages on bikes from Kona and others that have pivots between chainstay (swingarm) and seatstay are 4-bar designs. They're not. They're what magazine writers call faux-bars... because while visually looking like a 4-bar, they're not actually the real thing. They're single-pivots with elaborate linkages to alter the shock leverage ratio.
  • + 1
 Dave Weagle is a patent troll. I dislike him for it. There is nothing clever about any linkage used in modern bikes.
  • + 2
 No, there isn't... nor is there anything original... its all just suspension linkages stolen from cars, motorcycles, aircraft landing gear, etc... but the US patent office is great for awarding patents for obvious ideas... if you have a creative claim of invention to go with it. Anti-squat is Daves thing... even though the science is well understood on cars and in fact the ICT thing from Tony Ellsworth is basic linkage theory that does the same thing as the DW-link, tuning in anti-squat behaviour as well as keeping the drive torque in line with the instant center of the links (which is another way to describe a virtual pivot point). 1950s dragsters is where all this science was worked out in the REAL world.

Another example, Don Richardson, the guy who invented the full-floater shock linkage concept, also invented inertia-valve shock absorbers... his patent says vehicles including motorcycles and automobiles, but not bicycles... so specialized/Fox go and patent inertia valve shocks for bikes, without bothering to disclose the known prior art (and they knew about it because specialized signed a license agreement with Don to use his IV shock design, then didn't bother to use his actual design so they just tied up a license, and never paid any royalties, while filing patent claims on similar shocks that implement the technology differently ... their shocks/forks have a delay in the speed at which they react to bumps before the valve opens, the original ones do not).

Years ago, I knew a guy who got US patents granted for what was essentially the "wheel" and "fire".
  • + 1
 and don't forget the thermal bread refreshener (toaster). Patents only need 3 years then they should never be renewable. Copyright should only last 10 and then the same. Instead Mickey Mouse just got renewed and we will all continue paying for the beetles long after the talented performers are all dead and it is just lazy kids collecting royalties.
  • + 1
 If I was American, I would be very tempted to spend a few months writing a dissertation of every conceivable linkage, damper, clutch mechanism, and any other area that seems susceptible to patent trolling. Then publish it, in as many free magazines, website etc... so that no one could ever again patent troll by moving a bearing 3 inches. But I'm British, so I'm content to just sit here and feel sorry for you poor people.
  • + 1
 Didn't the biggest troll just win a suit against Samsung in Britain just recently? Big Grin
The problem is, writing about it doesn't get you control over the design. NPR did a story about trolling in the tech industry. It is worse there than anywhere. Whole companies exist just to control patents they don't use. Without long-term patents all of this stuff would be a lot cheaper.
  • + 1
 If you mean Apple, they won in california and lost in Korea on the same day, suing over the same things. Samsung is appealing the US verdict and I'm sure Apple is appealing the korean one. Problem for apple is aside from the punitive damages awarded in the american suit, many of the phones they sued Samsung over, aren't in production anymore. I think the british suit was over the tablet market. I'm waiting for RIM to sue Apple when apple tries to bring to market their "mini" 7" tablets....which are exactly what playbooks are.

What amuses the most, is the tablet itself...hell smart phones... they're basically taken out of sci-fi... the tablet computer is by its very function and layout, a copy of the PADDs from ST:TNG... so mid-80s sci-fi writing and yet apple and others got patents for them, smartphones, and other such bits of established published fiction. Nevermind specific technical patents on how they work. They got patents on the mere appearance of the things, how icons are displayed, etc.

en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/PADD
  • + 2
 I would have said the inventor of the lunch tray had the right to sue apple over the shape.
[Reply]
  • + 3
 "We have to admit that this year's Interbike show seems a touch stale when it comes to interesting bikes and components [...]"

Well, there you have it. Not much "thinking outside the box" going on...

This was the last time I saw anything bicycle related that got me excited:

www.dirtragmag.com/webrag/readers-rides-custom-fabricated-full-suspension-fatbike
  • + 2
 ^ this. Great article.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 Iron Horse Sunday is back!!! many different frames looks exactly the same of the old good Sundays... strange. lack of creativity or simply clone with a touch? people are saying that there is no news on the Interbike and I agree, just a few nice things and many re-desing. nice porshe
  • + 1
 yeah only so many ways to skin a cat as they say its not necessarily about creativity but companies working with or around basic 2 wheel engineering concepts
  • + 2
 We are in a tweaking stage for linkages. When a new big drive train change happens it might open up new options in linkages. Zerode comes to mind, but they have to get the gearbox to a point where you don't lose too much power between your feet and the rear wheel.
[Reply]
  • + 5
 Fast bikes and a product of the good old group B days... pinkbike, thank you
[Reply]
  • + 1
 you guys are right its just like a sunday the original ironhorse bikes where so awesome thats while i still have one,ill never get rid of my SGS,love it. that Musashi looks nice. iv never ridden one..im digging the replaceable ODI frame stops.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 for anyone in Europe and UK interested in OneGhost Industries bikes + frames, they're now available through fixdistribution.com
(excuse the blatant product plug there!)
[Reply]
  • + 0
 Porsche 953 Rallye for the Win!!! Only way it could be better in my eyes is if it were the ilussive 959 Pikes Peak car aye Wink What a FUN rig. I'm a contributing member on Expeditionportal.com and there are a BUNCH of replica 911's of various years that eope STILL go out and flog the piss out of in Africa and even a couple here in my NEIGHBORHOOD. I drove/rode in one of my somewhat neighbors (85 911 Rallye preped with the same "baby BFG's" on it) and all I can say is Very fun, VERY LOUD. It's also really odd to have a car with that level of CHASIS grip on fairly "squirmy" off-road tyres aye. BFG AT are amazing tires and I run them on my truck, but even that little added side-wall height (relative to say the SW's of my 33x10.5x15's) really makes you feel like the car's steering column is broken on turn in as there's NOT a lot of initial "bite". They do stick like glue once you set into the corner and do it on or off-road but... it's REAL different from driving a regular 85 911 aye.They do help quell the inherent "lift-throtle over-steer" that's so unreal in those old 911s.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Anyone else see an issue with the window for the bolt on bridge of the lower link of the musashi? Looks like minimal clearance in there. Get any mud in there and You will feel the grind.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 Oh how do I miss racing a Porsche. Granted, I never drove the 953. Nice to see that on display, wish it was an original though
  • + 4
 group B - 959.......you know what i'm talking about
  • + 1
 Off-road prepped Porsche = Worlds Most Beautiful Car.
  • + 1
 I had an '87 911. I miss it every now and then, but then I realize I can't get a ticket on my mtn bike and go riding that instead.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 The fast «ratcheting Fas-chin strap system» of the german helmet is a pain. I've tried one like these and the section in plastic with the button is way to big. You can't forget that you are wearing it.
  • + 5
 I disagree. The ratcheting system is my favorite by far. I wish they sold it by its self so I could add it to my other helmets.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 +1 on the uvex helmets, every uvex product that i have tried is GREAT!
+0.5 on the magura mt2 , when something is this cheap it's fishy (have seen them for 9x$).
  • + 1
 Those magura's are sick. I hope that they are actually going to be $105ish per wheel and not $200ish per wheel which is what they probably will be in Canada at least. Maybe they will actually get spec'd on bikes instead of say, elixer 1/3/5. SLX brakes should also be on more bikes.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 The v10 is 65 degrees, but remember also it runs 4 inches of sag, in sag the bike is slacker, around 63, this is why it is 65.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 The manufacturers spend all there time making headtubes short and low and then lots of the pros use several spacers to bring the stack height up!
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Just picked up a ,2011 musashi.i cannot wait to see where this company is headed
[Reply]
  • + 1
 High bar mounts-like a dirt moto, which feels ridiculous at first, after riding a standard DH bike, but which also works.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 Peaty's bike is definitely way sicker than Gwins
[Reply]
  • + 1
 OK it's all about protection, but for me UVEX really sounds too much like DUREX...
[Reply]
  • + 1
 How can i get my hands on some Minnaar boosters.im a tall guy,id love to try them out.
[Reply]
  • + 2
 The old Musashi looks much better, this one is meh.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 when can i get one of those V-10's in sooo jealous
[Reply]
  • + 1
 isn't that helmet a just a comp two with different graphics..?
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Wow! Greg Minnar's really raising the bar! Wink
[Reply]
  • + 1
 that last pic promoting cars and cigarettes?????
  • + 14
 Yup, that is the exact idea. Good catch...
[Reply]
  • + 1
 One Ghost has had some beautiful designs. That is not one of them.
[Reply]
  • + 1
 This is about as sick as bikes can get!!! This stuff is amazing!
[Reply]
  • + 2
 V-10 Carbon. Mmmmmmm...
[Reply]
  • + 1
 the new bmx looks like a cruiser bike. that's all to it.
[Reply]
  • + 0
 i like the old mushashi better. this one just looks like a weird version of the kona operator
[Reply]
  • + 1
 Props to one ghost new frame!
[Reply]
  • + 1
 The musashi locks a lot as a iron horse sunday or a pivot
[Reply]
  • + 1
 haha that uvex full face has the same shell as my 661 and I paid $60!
[Reply]
  • + 1
 i want that musashi ! sexy bike
[Reply]
  • - 1
 Nobody thought of cleaning Minnaar's ride before putting it out on public display? lol
  • - 1
 Thought the same thing
  • + 23
 Bikes and women, both are better a little dirty anyway
  • + 16
 you dont clean world championship dirt off a world championship bike
  • + 13
 A warrior with blood still on his sword
  • + 1
 interested in trying the spacer method shown there rather than the high riser bars I'm prone to running.
  • + 2
 It's like getting the game jersey from your favorite athlete after the championship game, you don't wash that s&*t.
  • + 1
 Does anyone know if the Santa Cruz team use custom headset geo or angle adjusting headsets? I demo'd one of these and I loved it except for the 65 degree head angle. It didn't corner as great as the slacker bikes I've ridden, as it made you kind of set and re-set your line through a turn. I've heard it's supposed to account for the increase in sag because of the 10" of travel, but it doesn't really work that way when you're pointed downhill or you're pushing hard through a corner.
  • + 0
 Slacker bikes are more stable, steeper bikes corner better- assuming all else remains equal.
  • + 2
 Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't say steep bikes corner "better", but they steer faster which can be counter-productive at higher DH speeds.
[Reply]
  • + 0
 isn`t a porche 959?
  • + 1
 you right dude it was a porche 959 that won the dakar,awsome car.
  • + 4
 Both did. The 959 won in 1986, and the 953 (also known as the 911 4x4) won in 1984 as a development car for the 959.
  • + 1
 thats right, i remember the 928s 4x4 that won the off road hill climb at hensburough in stutgart 4 years in a row.good times.
[Reply]

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