Opinion - Thinkers, Tinkerers, and Inventors

May 7, 2015 at 15:34
by Mike Levy  
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The cycling world needs people who are more concerned with doing things differently than just doing things the same way as everyone else. I'm talking about minds that look at something and don't just go, ''I can do that,'' but think "That's cool and all, but what if I did it this way?'' That sort of logic is why iPhones are so intuitive and easy to use; it's why air bags save so many lives each year; it's why donuts with bacon on top taste so damn good. There are, of course, thousands and thousands of other examples, many of which have had much more of an important impact on people's lives than things like cable operated derailleurs and the pneumatic tire ever will, but they all have one thing in common: someone, at some point, decided that they could do it better by doing it differently.

But why are we so hard on people who think like that? When you consider that most of us are happy to get through life by doing whatever it is that we do, pay our bills on time and squeeze in a bit of fun while being somewhat responsible, it makes the real bicycle thinkers, tinkerers and inventors out there, such as Graeme Obree and Robert Reisinger, look pretty f*cking awesome. Yet many of us are quick to shit on anything that looks different than what we're used to seeing, especially if we don't understand the whys and hows. Now, that's obviously not a trait that's exclusive to our group, but we do seem awfully quick to ridicule any out of the box thinking, a fact that can be confirmed by scrolling through the comment sections of many articles here on Pinkbike and elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for calling a spade a spade, especially because that's part of my job description, but there's a line where it goes from genuine criticism to just being closed minded. Perhaps it is because it's a lot easier to type out a poorly worded insult than it is to use Google to do some quick homework, or maybe it's down to jealousy. Either way, it's a good thing there were no online forum haters to discourage Franklin and Tesla when they were tinkering about with lightbulbs and electrocuting themselves.


Cannondale Jekyll

Cannondale's Jekyll is different... and it works. It might not be the bike for you, but it's a good example of out of the box thinking.



It's true that the cycling world isn't exactly rife with fresh ideas lately, but I believe that's because we've already been through the growing pains of the last three decades. And maybe that's a good thing - do we really need another round of suspension stems or bikes with two shocks? Of course not, but now, when there is a fresh concept, or one that's at least new to mountain biking, it's so often the case that we end up turning into one big, negative hivemind that tries to shoot it out of the sky like it's a lame duck. We like to revert to tired arguments about the so-called evil cycling industry just trying to line their pockets when something new or different gets shown, or we'll exclaim about how we don't need this or that to enjoy the sport. Fair enough, but more often than not the person saying that is riding a bike that's less than a few years old, which means it has things like disc brakes, really good suspension, and maybe even a dropper post or tubeless wheels and tires. Hypocrites, all of us.

Then again, all of the acronyms, trademarks and so-called innovations that are so often pitched as being 'the next big thing' are surely just making the average rider roll his eyes dismissively. I don't know anything about marketing, but it's just insane to me how some of these new products and ideas are presented to the buying public, and I can't blame anyone for being more than just a bit skeptical after reading about some of them.

The truth is that your bike, even if you parked it right now and kept it in pristine condition for the next decade, is going to be a relative heap compared to what we'll be able to get our hands on ten years from now. We need to realize that there's nothing wrong with that, and that things move forward not because someone in a suit wants to buy a new beach house and needs your money to do it, but because bikes are getting better due to people wanting to make better products.

I'm a diehard fan of auto racing, and while it's obviously still as marketing driven as any other sport, it's also far more about winning than anything else. Winning is, after all, one of the better ways to market a product. If you want to see some proper out of the box thinking, take a look at what Ben Bowlby is doing with his Nissan GT-R LM Nismo that is hoping to challenge the Audi and Porsche cars in the World Endurance Championship - this thing is a perfect example of what happens when you have to think differently. Audi dominates most of the WEC, and Bowlby accurately stated that he'd have very little chance of beating them if he designed a race car to the same basic, albeit very proven, principles given that his competitors have spent many years perfecting what he'd only now putting into practice. No, he had to take the drastically different and risky route of penning a radically different machine that, hopefully, will go faster than his competitors. The un-constraining WEC rulebook allowed him to build a 1,250 HP, front-wheel drive car that exploits aerodynamics in a different way than the proven four-wheel drive cars it's going up against, and while the jury is still out as to how it will fare, one has to admire Bowlby's rationale: you probably can't beat 'em by doing the same thing that they're doing.

And while my mind always seems to focus in on new bikes and gear, Bowlby's point could also be applied to everything in the cycling world, from media to training to trail building, albeit with a less competitive edge as required.

Mountain biking and auto racing have about as much in common as an LED television and a potato, but it is an inspiring place to look to when talking about doing things differently. Our little off-road bicycle world has much less money running through its veins, but we also don't have a rulebook that keeps progression from getting out of hand. There's nothing to keep a bright mind from coming up with something revolutionary, however, there are plenty of not so bright minds that seemingly don't want that to happen. I'm not clever enough to come up with any ideas worth pursuing, but I'd like to think that I am smart enough to be in a third group of people: those who welcome new ideas with an open mind and a willingness to see if they make sense. Which group do you fit into?

Author Info:
mikelevy avatar

Member since Oct 18, 2005
2,032 articles

101 Comments
  • 108 4
 Selling an idea of something that is radically different and will drive change is one thing. Re-hashing older ideas with small and relatively almost redundant tweeks (150 - 148 axles as an example) is another. I would rather see genuine refinement of actual problems that exist.

Instead of selling an idea such as 27+, which the majority of people don't seem really interested in but are going to get anyway, how about designing a fork crown that doesn't creak after 6 months of riding? Or designing a relatively light weight hub that runs on something a bit burlier than a tiny ass 6802 bearing for the masses (everyone can't afford King)? These are common problems that people have that it seems like no company has been able to resolve.
  • 28 0
 100% right, Kelly.
  • 30 0
 Getting rid of creaky PF30 bottom brackets!!!
  • 9 0
 "These are common problems that people have that it seems like no company has been able to resolve."

These are common problems that people have that it seems like no company _want_ to resolve Wink

For me mountain biking is very well developed and I don't think that we'll see a real game changer soon. I still use my 26" and won't change until I really have to because I'm very happy with old school wheels.

The same thing with suspension: it's all been done by motocross years ago, all the bladders etc. Now it's time to fine tune shim stacks etc.
  • 6 2
 Thats what really annoys me about boost, because obviously the 150 option was annoying as well, but it was there first. why didn't they just use a 150mm ? there are already parts out there in this size, making it a lot easier for users to exchange parts. explain the necessity of bringing it in by 2 mm.
  • 10 20
flag Narro2 (May 21, 2015 at 5:15) (Below Threshold)
 Marketing brings new people into the sport. And thats the problem that haters have, somehow they feel ownership to the sport and will unconciously do things to keep new people from coming in. You can see that on the ''26 aint dead'' attitude, kids (or adults) rooting for this think they know it all and bla bla bla, but what that saying is really showing is ''i have been in the sport for a while, i think i own the sport, i think i am different and cooler and i want to be treated that way...so whoever is riding 27 or 29 is just a joey''
Mike is there someway we can know how much has the sport grown since the introduction of 29ers and hydroformed frames? in my opinion those are milestones in the mtb industry.
  • 5 7
 I'm not saying that they should use boost 148 but it does actually have wider flanges than 150, so builds a stronger wheel not a stronger rear triangle, although that is still improved over 135 Not sure if I'm right, just mentioning something I heard a while back
  • 24 0
 Exactly. No one is complaining about things like narrow-wide rings - theyre cheap, they bolt on, and they are a big improvement. Boost however requires a massive investment with very little gain. Thats not innovation, its idiocy.
  • 13 2
 Why do people not understand that that comparing a 150 hub to a 148 hub is Stupid. 150 hubs do not sit in dropouts, if you put a 150 hub in a 148 frame the outside of the cassette would hit frame and the disc would rub on the swingarm. 157 is the same stile as the 148. I am not saying we need 148, people just need to understand that the just use a 150 hub is an ignorant argument against the 148 standard. /rant

My only complaint about all this envelope pushing technology we are getting shoved down our throats is proven products that work are becoming harder to find. I should be able to order Minion DHF's in any size and compound I want at anytime. Now that we have 7 different size mountain bike tires this will be an issue.There is only so much capacity in these factories.
  • 8 3
 I wish a manufacturer with some clout would fix these trashy exposed drivetrains we keep having to pay thousands for. If we're going to pay that much for a drivetrain, why can't it be a gearbox? I wish I could afford a nicolai (www.pinkbike.com/photo/12034361).
  • 8 2
 Mike, I am glad you tossed in the mix that auto racing should have very little in common with the MTB world in terms of engineering goals. Especially the series of racing you are referring to; it is the absolute pinnacle of auto technology and if there is a "budget," it is a ludicrous one. Those cars get complete teardowns and rebuilds before and after their 12-24 hour endurance events. And even then the cars do not even make the full duration.

SCCA racing would have more in common with MTBing and alot of the engineering goal would be reliability over the long haul.

Reliability is key when there is so little time to get out and ride let alone repair. So when your shit breaks partially or entirely because it has more moving parts than functionally necessary or is just too dainty for the task, then that is just a big ole bummer for the consumer.

That is why I will never own 4-piston brake calipers. Two pistons have enough power and heat dissipation for even the most badass mortal. So why bother having twice the moving parts and seals with twice the possibility of failure?

The guys that were out messing with Plus-sized tires (no matter the diameter) are the bike nerds that enjoy tinkering with those things to see what they end up with. Most likely with a heavy dose of self-induced placebo-effect going on. I remember such threads at MTBR years ago and being very intrigued as I have always migrated toward larger volume tires myself for various reasons. Those were some of the innovators at ground zero and nobody was throwing stones.

Everyone in this sport is for positive change. Of which we are getting a minuscule trickle out of the industry at the extremely high cost of lost compatibility and diminishing supply of replacement and/or upgrade parts for bikes that will still be holding down KOMs for a long time. The only expiration will be the point at which we have no choice but to buy these new gimmicks. What we are getting is the reality of a much more expensive and exclusive future.

Ask any mechanic what he thinks of press-fit BBs....

The issue here mimics what happens in industry all the time. The engineers sitting at AutoCAD dream up something that seems great and toss it along, marketing is happy about the new stuff yadda yadda. They rarely consult the techs that assemble and service these creations that can handily point out the flaws that are usually the result of over-engineering. Following the realization of the flaws as they manifest on the real world, the engineers over-engineer once again around the original starting point of proven technology for either ego or stupidity. Probably a shot of both with a chaser of denial.

10-year old bike a turd? No way, I flat out disagree. My old Bullit, built exactly how it was in 2005, will be just as effective if we are to use speed as the measure. The dropper post is the only change but I use a Gravity Dropper (simple, light, never fails) so it is pretty much still 2005 over here anyway..
  • 4 1
 That being said, I think a sub-27 pound 27.5+ hardtail sounds like a blast....I don't even dare check the neg count on this one.
  • 26 3
 Sorry Mike, but comparing the new (and awesome) Nissan to recent bikes "improvements" is completely off! Nissan made an outright out-of-the-box machine, while those so called "thinkers" of the bike industry are making lots and lots of changes that won't change much altogether, except screwing up compatibility with older parts and ramping up prices...
Boost, 110 x 15 axles, 27.5, 27+, and etc might even make the bike a tiny little better (although I am sceptical, since I own a 27.5, and it doesn't change much, but my tubes price) but they are far from being an innovation. That Bold Linkin Trail is an innovation, Lefties were, that DB inline was awesome, and those didn't get bashed by the commenters, although the Linkin air flow is a bit suspicious...

My point is that bright minds are not being shunned by the bike community, they are just not in the big companies. Take Millyard's bike, it looks awesome, but without a big company to back the bike and make it viable we will never have a single sided swing arm, like the BMW GS 1200 has, or gearboxes! I know many are not fans, but I am pretty sure there is a place from them, at least for downhill riding, yet we only have Nicolai making those (right?), also the BOX single lever shifter, and so on...
Many actual improvements are happening, and we have bright minds making cool stuff and being praised for it, yet the apparently not so bright minds in the industry are too busy stuffing our bikes with slightly larger axles and gimmicks.
  • 12 2
 That was the point of brining up Bowlby and his Nissan, though: that no one is doing what he is, even in the smaller scale of our little bike world. It ends up being all these little things that well, I believe, eventually add up to a much better bike if you were to take a bike from 2020 and compare it to a bike from last year. Yet even those are shit on by everyone, although the people marketing these changes are constantly shooting themselves in the foot by how they present their ideas.
  • 13 0
 What you say there Mike I think holds so much truth to a lot of people: that the marketing departments are shooting themselves in the foot by how they present their ideas.

There are so many genuinely great ideas that do improve our experiences as we ride; recently narrow wide chainrings, clutch mechs etc, and I think it is fair to say those genuinely great, practical, applicable, non-proprietry ideas are universally accepted and rarely require wrapping by the marketing dept.

Yet many people do take issue (maybe too hastily) with the apparently never ending stream of acronyms and trademarks registered to solve problems we didn't know existed and the ways they are sold to us. It has led (many) people to drastically reduce the amount of slack given to the marketing departments. And that is a shame for both the engineers striving to make everything even better and the consumers who are becomming disillusioned with the industry.

In many walks of life, you know something has gone too far when it becomes subject to parody. Transition Bikes' marketing methodology should be a warning to the rest of the industry it may be time to think a little about how they communicate to the consumers.
  • 15 0
 The bigger the marketing freight train is, the more you know the product will be a tough sell. It didn't take much to convince people that clutches, narrow wide, dropper posts, wide bars, range extenders and so on were a good thing. They're universally accepted today even if they're relatively new and didn't need much more than a press release. If you need to phase the alternatives out of the market while you jackhammer your product down my throat, maybe it's time to put a little less money in the marketing department and more into the R&D one.

Just make something that works.
  • 3 0
 Just a point, the Nissan isn't as out of the box as you would suspect. Its not really true front-wheel drive, power is diverted to the rear when the fronts loose traction. Kind of like a Volvo with Haldex. The innovation here is the recovery system and fuel efficiency, thats where the story is. You win these races with less stops (in addition to obvious speed and handling). Just a different way to skin the cat. Audi has diesel, these guys are going with hybrid power.
  • 3 0
 lookig forward to seeing front wheel drive fail at le mans
  • 1 0
 Yea, it's not gonna stand a chance against the R18's. Sometimes being different for the sake of being different doesn't make sense.
  • 22 0
 My bike is out of date, but the trails are still the same as when my bike was in date. Cool.... I will go ride my out of date bike and ignore marketing hype around the next big thing. I wonder how many people still race or ride bike part with a 26 Maxxis Minion DHF SuperTacky... the same tyre as was developed many many years ago. The tyre... the contact point with the ground... If it is still a great tyre compared to the competition then its still great no matter what new kid comes along.
  • 26 0
 That's a great line: ''My bike is out of date, but the trails are still the same as when my bike was in date."
  • 21 1
 Gearboxes. That is all
  • 12 8
 Why do sealed drive bikes not exist? Because the drive parts would last too long & S companies would sell less product
  • 13 2
 You forgot to yell
  • 9 2
 Gearboxes exist but they don't use them on bikes often because chain and sprocket transmissions are already high 90s efficient at transferring energy from the crank to the rear wheel. Gearboxes and driveshafts have a parasitic loss of power of around 10-15%, and combined with the extra weight would be significantly slower than other bikes. Look up www.zerodebikes.com
  • 3 3
 If gearboxes are so problematic, how did the Honda crew do so well in the DH World Cups on the RN01 in the mid 2000s?
  • 11 1
 Guess what else has a lot of parasitic loss, but still supposedly sells like hotcakes? Fat bikes and "27.5+" bikes.
  • 5 0
 @biking85, those Honda 'gearboxes' were a derailleur in an enclosure.
  • 3 1
 Valid point sir. Owned. I just really like gearbox bikes.
  • 4 0
 Those bikes were pointed downhill as well.
  • 12 3
 I'm in a skeptical group... lot's of small incremental changes and lots of marketing hype/mumbo jumbo in the MTB world. Look at the all trade mark names here:

www.pinkbike.com/news/sram-rail-40-wheels-2015.html

and don't get me started on the 27+ hype the industry is trying to get us to go. And bad on Fox for 15mm and CTD.
  • 11 1
 I couldn't make it through the first paragraph without becoming offended. Sram and other companies are constantly insulting our intelligence with press releases like that one. Are we expected to pretend that "Or the stiffest." is a complete sentence? They begin speaking to us like a politician or a news anchor and not like a human. We all can see through it, so of course we bitch, complain, and make fun of the product after reading the press release. I do realize this isn't always the case, but if I had a bike company, I would never let a press release like that make it out into the media.

@mikelevy , I think that at least a part of the backlash from pinkbike comments comes from being treated so disrespectfully by marketing departments like we were in the example above. I also think there are plenty of close minded mountain bikers as well. But aren't some of them close minded as a reaction to this treatment from the marketers?
  • 9 2
 @ChampionP - For sure, a lot of it is reactionary, and I can't blame them... some of that stuff is brutal. However, I also think it's a bit of a shame because there are a lot of genuine improvements out there (however small) that just get buried under propaganda that can make them more difficult to appreciate.
  • 9 13
flag aljoburr (May 20, 2015 at 23:43) (Below Threshold)
 Why do sealed drive bikes not exist? Because the drive parts would last too long & S companies would sell less product!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • 6 3
 @aljoburr Man, have you ever heard the phrase "beating a dead horse"? They don't make sealed drives because it complicates manufacturing bikes, looks worse than an already refined drivetrain, will muck up doing any maintenance easily or quickly, add unnecessary weight to bikes, and increase costs of already expensive bikes.
  • 3 3
 Muck up doing any maintenance, would not need maintenance & when chain gets dirty would actually more efficient than standard derailleur, sealed drives are not dead!
  • 10 1
 I think non-innovations get torpedoed quite justifiably. Need a stronger / stiffer wheel? There's something called 36 spoke. Some BMX'ers ride so hard with no suspension that they use 48 spoke wheels. On 20 inch rims! Boost 148, 15x110 all deserve to get bashed. No one complains about kashima. It actually works. Small benefit, but benefit nonetheless. Marketers who try to sell crap get crap...period.
  • 9 2
 Our sport is much more tech- and gear-driven than BMX, though, which I honestly love. The new shit is just one part of what I like about what we do, and I'd be less stoked if there was no new shit to check out. I know that it's the ride the counts, but it's not ONLY the ride, at least for me.
  • 2 2
 No one complains about kashima until it starts wearing off their fork legs. Oh wait, as long as you service it after every ride, you'll be fine.
  • 1 0
 Definitely right about BMX bikes, mikelevey. They ride them til they're trashed, then buy a new one. The only thing I really remember getting fired up about was the micro drives.
  • 5 1
 I own both Kashima and non-Kashima forks and shocks...no performance difference. The newer SKF fork seals make the difference.
  • 1 0
 When fox first tested kashima, none of their factory riders could feel a difference either, until they measured ride fatigue. Maybe they measured grip strength post ride or something, I actually didn't read it too carefully. But the bottom line as far as fox paying someone else to license kashima was that their riders consistently had less fatigue on kashima stantions than their best tuned factory stantions. So that's why fox does kashima. It worked.
  • 2 0
 Come to think of it, the biggest impediment to innovation these days is probably uci with all their rules.
  • 6 0
 I like to think I am a wait-and-see kind of guy. I don't need to be the first to celebrate or condemn a new concept. I actually thought dropper posts were dumb at first. I rode up, dropped my saddle, and ride down. Then I started riding a new style of terrain and it makes sense. Since then I mostly try to give new things a pass. I say bring on the innovations.
  • 8 2
 Im glad you showed a Cannondale. Im so sick of people shitting on them all the time. Ive always loved their out of the box thinking and their chance taking. It may not always work,but i totally admire their tenacity. Tenacity....its real word,used appropriately. Look it up in your Google box
  • 5 0
 "it's a good thing there were no online forum haters to discourage Franklin and Tesla when they were tinkering about with lightbulbs and electrocuting themselves."

A little online hate is nothing, compared to the opposition someone like Tesla had to face in his time.

And the Nissan is a good example for someone doing things differently, just for the sake of doing them differently. They do not stand the slightest chance of challenging Audi (even if, by some miracle, Nissan would indeed start or even finish in LeMans this year).

Generally, I don't think looking at auto racing for inspiration is a good recommendation for the bicycle industry. Car manufacturers are spending a quarter of a billion dollars, just to compete for one season in the higher classes like Formula 1 or LMP 1. The kind of "out of the box thinking", that involves running extensive simulations on super computers and countless hours of wind tunnel testing, as well as fundamental research in material science might be just a bit to expensive for someone trying to improve top of the line bicycles, which many people think are way too expensive already.

Still, I think the point is valid, there are too few people thinking out of the box and(!) going through with it, especially in the bicycle industry.

Personally, I think that aspect of going all the way is even more important than to think of something new in the first place.

That's were a lot of ridicule comes from, someone looking at just one little detail that is new, and saying that it won't do much good on it's own. Often, these people are right.

But the mountain bike industry is at a point where there won't be to many revolutionary steps anymore (like going from rigid to full suspension) but a lot of little steps, that, combined, might equal a big step. I think, not to many people are able to feel the difference in stiffness between a straight and a tapered steerer tube. But comparing a bike that has a tapered steerer AND a through axle AND a modern, stiff front triangle with an old bike that has neither, everybody will feel the difference.

And there will come a point, when customers will not be willing to buy a new bike, because hub width has AGAIN been changed to something a little wider, or axle, hub, or handlebar diameters have AGAIN been increased a little, etc. Please, bike designers, think it through first, and be brave enough to decide on the best solution, then go three steps at a time. Yes, people might hate you (even more) at first, but if they ride your newest creation they will also really be able to tell a difference at once.
  • 4 0
 Adding onto what all of you are saying: I HATE that so many products come to market so fast, with so much hype, that the companies seem to be relying on the consumers to act as the product testers.

Just look at the giro Teraduro and many 5.10 shoes as an example, how hard is it to properly glue a sole on???
  • 4 1
 To be fair, I was pulling the soles off of shoes back in the 90s as well. But yes, your first point is true in some cases.
  • 4 0
 My first job out of college was working at 5.10 in Redlands, answering the phone, around 2006 when they were still fairly small in the MTB shoe market.

Back then they had a batch of Guide Tennies that had the "soles falling off" issue. To the extent that people would open the box, put their new shoes on, and the soles would fall off walking around the living room.

The issue with that batch anyway was that the manufacturer in China (or Taiwan or wherever) hadn't let the glue cure at the right temperature/humidity. Apparently 5.10 shoes are made in the same factories as Nikes and everyone else, but with their much smaller volume they often got the short straw with things like curing temperatures etc. Ergo, the quality issues.

Back then, the solution was to hire a bunch of temp workers who spent a week going through the batch of thousands of Guide Tennies, and tried to pull the soles off of every one by hand. Also, while it sucks to have the soles fall off your shoes, at least back we always took really good care of customers who had any kind of quality issues.

This was all before they got bought by Adidas. I'd assume that with Adidas backing them, they're likely getting a bit better treatment at the factory and solving some of the quality issues.

Also, they hype about their special sticky rubber is at least partially true. There really is a lab in a corner of the warehouse where Charles Cole would go and tinker around with different rubber compounds to try and make an even stickier rubber.
  • 3 0
 I do love 5.10 rubber! I have C4 on all of my resoled La Sportivas!

The stickyness of their rubber is one of the few reasons why they have made it so far in the outdoor industyry, but compared to Sportiva and Scarpa, the quality of their shoes is really bad, but they do cost the same. . .

Every pair of 5.10 approach shoes and bike shoes I've had from 5.10 the sole has de-laminated, fortunately for me I know how to apply barge cement. . .better than the factory in china.

I have never had that issue with my Shimano, Sidi, Scarpa, Vasque, Sportiva, Saucony or Vans shoes. . . so I think they need to work extra hard on that!

Some people seem to think that it is the C4 rubber that is an issue, but my Vasque Pingora approach shoes (which were the absolute best approach shoes EVER MADE!!!) used C4 rubber and the soles never had an issue despite aiding and jugging multiple routes. . . my brand new Guide Tennies (the new super boxy model) delammed on my first day climbing The Nose last october, while my friends Evolv approach shoes still looked perfect when I saw him in Moab last month. . .
  • 4 0
 It's common throughout the outdoor industry. Make a great product and your far more likely to see competitor ion in the form of a cheaper China made imitation than you are an actual innovation that pushes the industry forward. The world has way more make a quick buck guys than it does inventors and innovators.
  • 4 0
 I'll admit, I'm negative towards SOME change and new products, ones that I feel are deserving of that type of reaction. I'm an early adopter of lots of other good stuff though, like of dropper seatposts (since gravitydropper came out in 2003), the 10 speed wide range cassette conversions (wide range cassettes in general, and I've recognized the benefits and been riding 1x bikes since the early 2000s), suspension, disk brakes, and I'm going to be a huge proponent of gearbox bikes if they ever see mass production.

It seems like since the advent of 29ers, major manufacturers are now afraid to miss the boat on any new technology, and regardless of whether it's a step forward or not, they jump on the bandwagon.
  • 4 1
 Another superb article highlighting the interesting things in our culture. I completely agree that we are a little quick to the pistol, without taking the time to think about applause. If there was a way for the bike industry to get their new inventions or alterations out to the riders faster and more frequently rather than the typical demo rounds, I think we would all be a lot more open to these alterations. Just my 2 cents.
  • 3 0
 Tesla and Edison (I'm assuming you meant Edison, since those two were competing for attention and investment and "standardization" - Franklin was a different and much earlier story) didn't have internet haters, but they had their day's equivalent in newspaper editorials and people wagging their tongues at pubs and in workshops everywhere.

There's always a group of people who will fight innovation. That's the closed mindset you refer to. In the larger picture, they tend to not really prevent innovation - they just tend to delay mass acceptance. And they make for better innovation - if there's a hardcore of doubters who will yell about everything new, it raises the bar and makes it harder for whizbang bullshit without value to become a thing (and leave tons of people stranded with crappy gear that they won't be able to get serviced). The cool stuff will eventually break out (droppers, 1x drivetrains, hey, dual suspension used to be laughed at).

The Jekyll is interesting. But there's a real calculation for a consumer to be made here. This thing rides well (I've tried it). But is it better by enough of a margin to where that outweighs the hassles you'll face in getting spares down the line, getting it serviced at another shop if you ever need to, and then reselling it to a skeptic second hand market? Cannondale has a history of slightly outside the box stuff that didn't end up revolutionizing the sport and got abandoned over time.
  • 2 0
 I think it is funny that PinkBike would publish this article. I'm one of those Thinkers who decided to take the topic of mountain biking and put it into a format that has never been done before - a book of fictional short stories. I called this book Twisted Trails. I wrote it, published it and one of the first things I did was contact PinkBike to see if they would like to post the announcement or review it. They said, "This is not the typical content that we cover."

I thought, well, they don't really know me. I need to prove myself. So, I marketed the book to mountain bikers across the world, sold hundreds of copies, earned 5 star reviews and won a National Book Award. Then I wrote back to PinkBike to tell them of all its success. I figured that when they found out that mountain bikers are loving this book, they would want to share it with their readers. Their response, "Like we mentioned prior, it's just not our typical content." Really?

In the above article it says that, "the cycling world isn't exactly rife with fresh ideas lately." No kidding? Maybe that is because when someone brings forth a new idea PinkBike shuts the door in their face. Thanks guys.
  • 1 1
 You sound a bit cheesed. Many user submitted articles get submitted each day, but not a lot of them go on the main page. There's always a reason for this, including time constraints and other things. Regardless, stoked to hear that your book went over well.
  • 2 1
 Thanks Mike. Sorry for the angry post.
  • 5 3
 I have no idea what 27+ or boost can bring to my life. However, I know what clutch mechs, thick thin rings and dropper posts have done and 4 years ago, none of that existed and we could not have forseen it. I think the same could have been said for wider rims and shorter stems. How much other weirdness has come and gone In that time? To get good stuff, it must come from a pool of ideas that can often contain lots of turd (that knee basher dropper lever thing for example). Consider a Reverb. Before that came CC thudbusters and my mum had some shock post on her shopper. Ask anyone about seatposts and they would have said buy a Thomson.
Not all evolution is good. We are 4 legged animals walking round on our back legs. We can however talk, make stuff, drive and ride bikes! Horses cant. Lets embrace all this change for what it is - making our sport better. Example, If you are a die hard 26" fan, good for you. But dont force it in everyones face when they embrace something newer (and maybe better)that has evolved etc etc etc. Every progressive competative sport is the same. There are many sailors that would sing the benefits of wooden yachts however, there is no dening that the latest Americas Cup composite race craft are hands down a million times faster.
  • 15 1
 I completely deny that a composite boat is a million times faster than a wooden boat... Maybe three times faster... I've told you a million times not to over exaggerate...
  • 1 0
 The glorious irony of this is that wood is a composite too, just not a carbon fiber polymer composite. Although after having sailed on wooden boats for a while, stepping onto a proper carbon racing boat was.... scary. Those things are way, way, way faster than they have any right to be.
  • 1 0
 4 years ago? We had gravity dropper seatposts in the mid 2000s, btw. 2003, I believe. And as an aside, their reliability and tenacity are unmatched to this day.
  • 1 0
 ilovedust - you are so right! Those innovations have made MTB a much better sport. A bike with 6 inches of travel that you can ride on a trail with relative ease (compared to my old 2003 Intense Uzzi SLX) and allows via dropper post the ability to pedal and flow with no seat up your bum and a clutch d-railer that keeps your bike from sounding like a box of scraps were all welcomed innovations!
  • 3 1
 Innovation is spot on and required no doubt, what we can do without however is having a new $6-10k bike being outdated quicker than a of because some companies decide to hold this tech back for 6-12 months
  • 1 0
 the solution to this is just not buying a $6-10k bike
  • 2 1
 "We like to revert to tired arguments about the so-called evil cycling industry just trying to line their pockets when something new or different gets shown, or we'll exclaim about how we don't need this or that to enjoy the sport."

@mikelevy Nailed it with this. Every time people say this I think about people in rap forums blaming #illuminati for everything. There's no sinister plan to obsolete your old bike, it's just the way consumer products work. Tech gets better, standards move on, used shit loses its value. Just stop complaining and either (a) start saving up to buy a new bike in a few years, like you probably would have anyway, or (b) do what literally everyone riding an old-ass bike does and take whatever compatible parts you can get. If there are still people riding around on threaded headsets and 7 speeds (there are), you'll be able to find the parts you need if you really want to.

Sure, sometimes the marketing stuff sounds really stupid, and in that sense the companies aren't helping themselves out, but bikes are freaking awesome now. And we never would have gotten there without some marketing hype.
  • 3 2
 @mikelevy Thanks for the article Mike, it was well thought out but even more overdue. I'm getting tired of angry people whining about axle dimensions, wheel sizes, and how flat pedals won less than half of downhills last year, making them better somehow. To everyone else: if you're angry about something in the mtb industry, go ride your bike until you're happy again. Repeat as often as is necessary.
  • 1 0
 I like this guy. I've worked in the industry a long time at the manufacturing, distribution and retail levels for acouple of decades now.

I'm tired of the minor tweaks that get billed as some huge improvement one year to the next. 15% lighter and 10% stiffer, 50% more expensive.... Pulling out your wallet is one place in the real world you will notice these minor differences.The other is trying to sort through the array of "standards" when you have to but a new hub, BB, headset or other part where everyone needs to tweak it by 1 mm to force you to buy their stuff.

Sure you have to have incremental improvement to make a cumulative major change. The mass markets also can't do anything to risky but they do have the ability to drive market demand rather than simply say they don't stray far from the accepted norm because the OEM customers don't ask for it... c'mon Shimano grow some balls.

I hate the 1x parade and I get shit on for saying so. 1x doesn't serve the masses though, not enough total range, look at how people try to get around it, bad chain lines, high wear and tear.

Here is some out of the box thinking. Swap the gear stacks around on the bike. Shimano could build an 8 or 11 speed Alfine BB based around their Hollow tech crank axle. Would move the weight to the middle of the bike wear it should be and wear it is on motorcycles. Then make the rear hub a much simpler 2 or 3 speed that would be lighter on back of bike.

It makes a lot of sense really, would be far more durable and the loss of efficiency is a myth. So why don't they do it? Shimano says no OEM demand... yeah because its not an option, chicken or the egg... The other reason? Like the author says, just watch how people respond to this different approach.
  • 1 0
 Ever tried an alfine hub?
Loss of efficiency is not a myth in the lower gears and the freewheel system capitulates once every 10 km, just when you're standing on the pedals. I was convinced it was the way to go, until I actually gave it a try (for 10 000km).
  • 1 0
 I commute on a 2015 Alfine 11 speed bike. I don't notice any of the things you mention. Its a lot faster than either my Felt Virtue 920 or my Lapierre Spicy 327. I'm fortunate to be able to ride the trails of one of the great local mountain bike trail systems so mountain commuters make sense. My routes involve various steep short rolling hills intense enough to over heat the bionics motor in a hybrid I rode home one night. The Alfine has been flawless in this application and riding on slicks and a fully ridgid hybrid really hones the bike handling skills! Lol.
  • 1 0
 I really want to see more big fork manufacturers bring out inverted forks. Marzocchi, you really should design an up to date Shiver - basically make it the same as before only lighter and with more refined internals. I'm sure you could do it if you wanted. Pleeese....
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy I feel like you could have mentioned the amazing technology we all take for granted in its current form. There has never been a better time to be a mountain biker. We have suspension that is capable of providing a capable climbing platform and bombing a DH course on the way back down. We have seatposts that will make both of those possible at the flick of a switch. We have tyre's that don't require tubes to stay inflated and we have drive-trains that change gears so smoothly while weighing next to nothing.

I'm sure all of these advances had their doubters in their infancy but it takes all of the small steps to keep us moving forward. We wouldn't be where we are today without all of the forward thinkers of the past. I wouldn't change it for a second and I cant wait to see where these forward thinkers take us in the future. I even aspire to be one of them. Watch this space Wink

Most of the criticism comes targeted at "The Industry" as if there is some secret bunch of profit driven bad guys hiding under some giant pile of money somewhere. Profit isnt a dirty word. Its the profit that drives and supports the creative minds out there. Its true that the profit makers don't always back the best thing for the industry but I'm sure if they could back a winner every time they would. Besides most of "The Industry" seem to be a bunch of rad dudes who have managed to turn there love of cycling in to a job.

As betsie said the trails don't care your bike is out of date. Ignore the advances in tech you don't believe in but don't crap on the dudes who are trying to make our collective experience better. Or "The Industry" that brings us all of the things we love.

I dig my 27.5, 29 and 26 inch wheels. I dig my "enduro" bike and my single speed. Most of all I dig mountain biking. All of it.

As always top work mike.
  • 1 0
 I think Mike is giving the industry too
Much credit.
The switch to 27.5" happened at a trade show in Taiwan, 2012, and was done as a group to increase sales. There is no benefit to bigger wheels, other than fit for larger people. There was no inoovation: to quote Moschler from WTB " 26" has been taken off the menu."


Press fit is a cheaper was to manufacture a product, again not innovation...but does increase profit.

Boost sizes, + sizes bigger wheels and press fit BB'sare not
To be confused with game changers like the dropper post: the industry never got rid of regular seat post. Full suspension, the industry never got rid of the rigid, hard tail, SS,etc...

And finally, today's marketing gimmicks will never have the benefits or innovation that disc brakes brought to mountain bike world. You cannot compare something that saves you from crashing in wet weather or trails to something which now requires glue( PPBB) instead of threads, a wheel that is a 1/2" bigger or a new version of an old idea about oversize tires.

I like the article, but I do not think that industry is as innocent as Mike would lead you to think they are. Is it really innovation when you have to remove a tire to true a carbon wheel? Or when you need to be really selective in choosing a Front ring because you only have one...?
  • 1 0
 I have a complicated life/career that has meant a lot of frequent traveling between 3 places. Since life is more fun when riding, I have 3 bikes in these 3 places: a 2006 SC Heckler (26"), a 2009 RM Altitude 29er, and a 2014 Giant Trance 1 (27.5"). While vastly different in some ways, they're all 5" dual suspension bikes with dropper posts that would fall under the "all-mountain" category.

The point of my story of bike gluttony is that in each case, the newer bike is better. All 3 bikes are fun; I'd happily ride any of them versus not riding, but the newest bike is by far my favourite of the bunch. And like the writer of the article said, I fully expect that when I eventually replace my newest bike, that replacement bike will again be better. This is as it should be.
  • 1 0
 "New" and "improved" are not always linked together. Different people will draw the line at different points. Sooner or later we'll have unmanned drone bikes that we control from our smartphones and someone will say it's a big improvement over the old days when you had to actually be on the bike and pedal. Personally, I draw the line at electric or hydraulic ANYTHING on a bike. If the industry wants to make some improvements, making hydraulic reliable, with LOW MAINTENANCE would be a great improvement. There is certainly room for new ideas if they are improvements, but it often seems like new ideas for the sake of new ideas and more money.
  • 3 3
 I think that this article is little overdue, I feel the same as Mike towards the constant negativity towards change and new products in our industry. I also feel for the people who struggle looking at the home page of pinkbike and seeing all the new reviews on bikes and related components. It is hard enough as it is to make a life for yourself in this world and to be passionate about a sport evolving quicker than yourself. If you are truly unhappy with the direction things are headed stay on your chosen path and by example show others, but do not slander and criticize others choices.
Too many people are consumers or trying to "Keep up with the Jone's". Be happy with what you have if your bike is still soing its job ( getting you up and down safely with a big grin) that's all that counts, no one is judging you on the trail. If you have the funds to buy a new bike great good for you. Vote with your wallet.
  • 2 1
 doesn't change the fact that MTB has become a joke and a parody of itself
  • 2 0
 The industry has been a joke lately and many are "calling a spade a spade." Too bad PB doesn't have the sack to do the same.
  • 3 1
 sadly, only a minority of us see it. the rest are sheep, or noobs
  • 1 0
 Maybe I'm a shoob?
  • 2 0
 maybe you try too hard. chill. write less. less drama
  • 4 2
 I love how Pinkbike insults and lectures the people who use the site and generate page views, thus giving them advertisers and income. Way to go!
  • 4 0
 yet still we click and linger. like lemmings....
  • 2 1
 Nobody is forcing you. Do you not find it refreshing to read an article that doesn't feel like it is just trying to get the highest revenue for the advertisers for once?
  • 5 1
 Mike is giving his OPINION, you don't have to agree; no one has to.

If anything, i'm glad people like Mike are running this site. People that can provide some well-thought-out observations on user's comments in addition to all the other stuff they do. Its one of the main reasons I keep coming back to this site.

Now compare the 'culture' he helps maintain on this site, to the culture and retarded endless lists of bullshit comments on every Youtube video.
  • 1 0
 Yes, Mike's opinion - and one that is from a view point a lot of us aren't looking from - one that sees, experiences and reads about everything in the MTB world, where me (we?) are the consumers. I found it condescending and, as a customer/consumer- that is my opinion. Seems like the basic rule of any publication would be to NOT insult your readers.
  • 1 0
 Ah, I can see your point of view and I respect your opinion also! (Though I did agree with Mike on this article)
  • 1 0
 Sorry, guys. It's an op ed that wasn't meant to come off as being condescending, just what I've seen from reading a few hundred thousand comments over the last six years. Maybe that skews me perspective a little bit, but you're 100% correct in that it does not apply to everyone.
  • 1 0
 Thanks Mike.
  • 4 4
 "most of us are happy to get through life by doing whatever it is that we do, pay our bills on time and squeeze in a bit of fun while being somewhat responsible" - speak for yourself. if that's all you're willing to settle for. no wonder mankind is in a mess and people complain about the price of bikes and boo hoo about how hard life is. no effort, no motivation. might as well just be a stoner mountain biker and drop out
  • 1 0
 All i'm thinking about now is how behind i am on uni coursework and that i'm barely going to have anytime to ride my bike that i just bought. Damn learning.
  • 1 0
 Being an engineer, I am all about innovation. However, you don't need to bring everything to market. I would like to see what kind of ideas didn't get brought to production.
  • 2 0
 A new type of pedal/shoe connection is in the works and patented by a lil, sole entrepreneur.
  • 3 5
 You boost haters should really try to understand the benefits... It may be close to 150 but you dont need a wide BB but you get wider hub flanges.... I dont See why this should be just salesman bullshit... Its better! When the old hub Standards were Designed, there was just 26" .... The game has changed
  • 6 0
 15x110 is better than 20x110 in what way?

The forks/axle might be slightly lighter, but the hubs are heavier. Any difference is going to be unnoticable to anything but sensitive measuring equipment. It's nothing but a nonsensical inconveniance. Maybe one in 5 hubs will have slightly wider flanges designed around the 110 width, but most will just have wider adaptor cups on them, nullifying any marginal gaines hyped up by marketing

So if I have a 15x110 and fold the wheel or it's stupidly muddy, I can't swap in one of my 2 other wheels with 20x110 in as a temperary measure. (26" in 27.5" fork gives mud clearance).
  • 1 1
 I was talking about the rear hub... Uncertain about the Front hub.... Think 20x110 is still it... Maybe a 30mil system for usd would make sense... Dunno
  • 2 0
 it's why donuts with bacon on top taste so damn good

really??
  • 1 1
 To be honest I do regret hating on new developments like plus wheel sizes etc, he's got a point
  • 3 3
 Oh, First World problems! Ride the bike and enjoy it, because you can.
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