Race Face SIXC: Behind The Machine Shop Walls

 I`m not into weight too much, but their stuff rocks anyway...wheather u`re a weight weenie or not.

 ^ sigh...

 super solid crank. have had it on my faith for 6 months now. has handled many rock strikes and other clumbsy moves.

 RafaGamas, I am not sure if if RF weighs that crank with BB. I know for Sram they will weigh some of their cranks with BB. Not positive if they have weighed the XO DH with BB. Doesn't look like they do, just wanted to to throw this out to see if anybody could confirm this!


It looks like RF has BB included. So RF has a freaking light crank!!!

Anybody know the msrp of it?

 Got a link w/ the answer to your question gus


battlenations.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/implied-facepalm1.jpg

----Sent from my Commodore 64----

 Masenc - Yes we always include BB and all hardware when we list crank weights - the SixC cranks is super light!! The MSRP for the SIxC cranks with 2 rings/Bash is $649.99 USD and with a Single ring is $ 589.99 USD.

 SIX C, I'm gussing SIX maybe meant for the SIX hundred grams and C is for carbon.
or may for the reason for mash between sexy+Sick = SIXC? lul

 Thank you Raceface-Suit!!

 Carbon is the # Six element on the Periodic Table + C = SixC....pretty basic really

 Doesnt hurt they are good looking. I like to think SEXY. SIX-C

 Raceface, I just gotta say you guys kick ass! Not too many companies get on here and clarify misinformation, especially so quickly.. Really glad you all overcame the difficulties of a year ago, keep rippin!

 If they made the SixC a BB30 i'd buy it!

 six is for AM, six inches...

 @Freerideguy14, check their web site. They make a BB30 and PFBB30 bb.
www.raceface.com/components/bottom-brackets/bottom-brackets/bb30-x-type-adapter
www.raceface.com/components/bottom-brackets/bottom-brackets/pfbb30-x-type-adapter

 Raceface has an adapter for every BB standard

 Same, I was really excited to get this crank in a BB30. Although there are adapters available, it kind of takes away the point of having a BB30 or PF30. Stiffness is the reason not to use an adapter. Rob the inside rep told me that they were coming out with an actual PF30 crankset. I went with Sram XO instead because of this. That said, thanks Race Face for putting out quality components made on the North American continent. I'm super stoked on your brand and I'm excited to see your success in the future. I still went for the SIXC bars, can't wait to mount them up!

 Good things can come to those who wait Thanks for your support though duallyDave - have fun with those SixC bars, they are awesome!

 And I'll bet their bearings are better than SRAM's, which I haven't been impressed with. They haven't developed play yet, but when you have the cranks off and spin the bearings with your fingers they feel like they are on the way out the window. I wish they would talk more about the quality of the bearings. Saints or SixC's will be hard to choose between...
I'm curious about the end cap protector, what is it made of, are they strong, are they replaceable, can they come off, does it void warranty to not run them, any interference between cranks and 5 10's?

 New technology products are always expensive at the beginning then it become cheaper within a few years

 Well I don't know about the material itself but the product, its production cost will probably get cheaper. example: carbon frames, I couldn't even think about buying one 10 years ago, today it's much more afordable, they're still expensive but nothing compared to the very beginning.
PS: in motorcycles they don't care much about the weight.

 You can buy carbon rims, made in the same factory as where other big component makers have theirs made and labeled, for 150USD. You can buy an On-One carbon frame for less (price and weight!) than other brands charge for their supposedly high-end aluminum frames.

Let's face it - carbon is already cheap, and the only reason brand name companies are charging a premium for carbon parts is the same as with all other prices: BECAUSE THEY CAN.

Think about it - If you want to to make a metal part at home, you need a CNC machine, tubing bender, welder, lathe, etc. For carbon, you just need foam, foil, a vacuum and an oven. If you look at other forums, there are lots more quality composite parts made on a small scale than metal parts ever were.

If the entry cost into manufacturing is that much lower, end user prices will eventually also drop, just because of the competition.

 cathar apperently you dont know very much about carbon fibre. It's basicly tiny strings woven together. The patterns are very different and there are alot of layers. This is extremly complicated, especially when making a mountainbike frame, since they are very "curvy" and have to be extremly tough.
If you have got wrong patters you end up with a heavy weak frame but if you do it right you can drop alot of weight compared to a metal frame while increasing stiffnes.

Desining the partters is what makes carbon fibre frames so expensive, not the material itself.

(It took 7 of the top carbon fibre experts in the world 2 years to design a carbon fibre rope - each meter costs over half a million euros - but it would be strong enough to lift 1000 tons at a diamiter of about 1 cm )

 If you're only looking at weight, a crankset may not save you a kg over XTR, but in strength and stiffness to weight, that's where the real numbers show

 Waki, you're not comparing apples to apples with SIXC and XTR. Next SL is the comparison to XTR. Next SL is 595g i a 2x10 config so considerably lighter. SIXC is in a league of it's own for strength and stiffness. DH strength at XC weight sounds pretty good to me! Compare the weight of SIXC to Descendent or Atlas and you'll see the real weight savings.

 @Waki, the SIXC may be "only" 40g lighter than XTR, but the SIXC is a DH race ready crank and is available in 83mm spindle options. XTR is by no means a DH race crank and is not available in 83mm spindle options, so it's not a comparable crank to SIXC. When you put the SIXC up against it's more direct competitors (XO DH, Saint or Descendent) the weight savings is quite massive.

A better comparison to XTR in the RaceFace crank line-up would be the Next SL which is 150g lighter than XTR. That's a pretty substantial weight savings!

 i dont know where this guy got his stats on comparing xtr and sixc. first off you cant get xtr in 83mm. and double the price? they cost almost the same. i got mine for 450 when they were new in the summer and i see most xtr going for 500 ish range

 No one really knows where he gets most of his "facts" or figures, tdryan242. Or how he has endless time to type lengthy posts and replies to every single post on Pinkbike everyday.

 @Cathar... Cheaper carbon fiber does exist today, but there are also crappier carbon fiber products as well, same as any other material. Those $150 carbon rims off ebay don't compare in strength/durability and quality of finish to the stuff Envy and Easton slap their labels onto.

As to wakidouche's whining about titanium would be cheaper IF spewage... he's conveniently ignoring that the price of titanium itself, before its produced into tubes or frames or parts, has risen about 500% in the past 20 years, and the cost of welding up the frames with it, hasn't shrunk at all during those 20 years either. Carbon fiber and the epoxies that hold the fibers together, hasn't seen that sort of increase in costs, if anything, the increased scale of production for the material has seen costs fall. Which is why CF products have gone from being exclusive to the military and exotic high performance (like the center crash tub sections of F1 racing cars, and the masts of america's cup yachts) sports applications, to much wider usage throughout the world.

 I'm not sure how much wastage RF has from those carbon pre-preg sheets, but a 100yrd roll of 6K weave will run the average person about $7000-9000 per roll, just for the basic 'twill' weave. Depending on how many layers they use on parts, one can see the cost of production can be pretty high, just for the materials. I have no idea how that compares cost wise to a truck load of aluminum billet though :-)

 Don't forget R+D Costs. Its not cheap to set up a carbon room

 Aluminium billet isn't cheap either, even before the machining/forging costs to make parts from it. Especially not in the less common alloys that a lot of component makers were/are turning to in order to avoid having to retool for composites. Thomson avoided getting into carbon as long as they possibly could and have only done so now because their main customer, BOEING, has demanded it of them.

 MSRP for XTR and Sixc is on par pretty much. xtr m980 is around $620. I'm sure you can find it cheaper online but comparing msrp to msrp it's not far off.

 Right words, WAKIdesigns. Knowledge is power )

 Except you should compare Sixc to Saint, not to XTR.

 @deeeight

you are correct about cheaper carbon fibre. it does exists, its being purchased by uneducated consumers seeking a "deal" (mainly from Chinese Ebay resellers) and its absolutely wack, a total rip-off !! Give me a quality aluminium-alloy frame or wheel rim, over a cheap carbon fibre item, any day...

today in my workshop? I had a customer book in for a custom build on a Specialized Venge road frame, this is GBP£2,600 for the frameset, plus labour costs and cabling costs. The bike we took his components from? A $600 (frame) chinese Ebay purchased "Pinarello Dogma" (fake), he said the frame rigidity was so poor he could change gear by sprinting the bike.

We checked his old frame, fore/aft alignment was terrible (+18mm), quality of frame finishing very poor all round, and he said his front derailleur braze-on kept bending (on his 4th replacement) when he shifted the front derailleur

I have, first hand, seen other examples of fake Dogma, fake Tarmac and fake Madone where the seatpost would not fit, the wheels do not sit straight in the dropouts, and the head tube is ovalised but the customer is convinced they got a "deal" because their Ebay frame was 1/5th the price of the real, genuine item

there is an old saying: "A fool and his money are soon parted!"

 @WAKI, SIXC DH cranks have re-designed arms, thicker 4.5mm chainring tabs, CrMo pedal insterts and removable granny spider so it's not exactly "an AM crankset with a longer axle".

For the record, if you want to compare armset weights, Next SL triple arm is 430g where as XTR 980 is 530g. The weight difference increases another 50g when you factor in BB, rings and hardware.

 I just google image searched 'xtr vs next sl' - this was the first hit.

forums.mtbr.com/attachments/weight-weenies/704944d1340147473-xtr-crankset-2x10-true-weight-questions-rf-next-xtr.jpg

 Titanium will most likely never get cheaper as it is harder to work with than Carbon and also now less readily available. Carbon is definitely getting cheaper each year.

 Ok ok I made an idiot out of myself with weights. Not enough research...

One thing to remember about pricing though: If what a bloke from Giant wrote for MB was true, making an aluminium hardtail frame in Asia can cost under 2$. Now from my specualtion and brief knowledge on manufacturing alu and carbon: full suspension frame of simplicity of Turner, will not cost more than 3$ for the frame itself, add some bearings bought in gillions and you are at 10$ max. Shitty carbon frames get cheaper every year - yes. But proper stuff doesn't and won't. ENVE is the best reference, the right price for CF rim/bar. I am 100% sure that they have no bigger margin than let's say Spec on their carbon goodies made in China.

To make really light and compliant stuff on industrial scale, you need following highlights:

- A CNC'd alu form with possibility to get sealed and vacuumed - there are plenty of companies in every country doing CNC - call them and ask how much would it cost to buy material and CNC two 2m x 1m, 6cm thick blocks of aluminium.
- many layers of various kinds of pre-preg directional carbon cloth, each laid separately in sheets that are well cut down to required shape.
- You might want to make it in few steps, pre-forming many elements in smaller forms before you put them into the final form to bond it together and add surface layer.
- You might also like to polish the form to glass perfection, use coloured separating agent sticking to fiber but nto to the form, so you skip "heavy" paint afterwards.

You can also take a soft form, plastic bag, better vacuum cleaner, few bladders, floor pump, a bit of sandpaper and filler to even out surface afterwards. Then paint it with 0,5kg of paint - Awesome! It is getting cheaper! And interms of strength to weight ratio it is undoubtedly superior to aluminium - alumiNUM - alumynynyNUM? alumynannanuNucuLARnyNUM!

 Oh and complete best possible alu material at Reynolds UK, costs 10£ for a complete! frame. Aluminium stuff is utterly overpriced. Carbon? dunno. But I can't believe that CF requiring lots of man labour will ever get close to alu frames that can be nearly completely made by robots from raw tubing. And other arguments - since when China carbon stuff made with vacuum cleaner and floor pump does not need realigning as alu frames?

Some people took "The Jetsons" a bit too seriously... future holds great treasures for a white man! yeees! yeeeees! Better faster stronger! and moar of iiit! and cheaper of moar - yeees! It is only a matter of time! By 2050 average growth rate will be 50% a year! We will all ride carbotanium bikes for a price of Rockhopper on Alivio! We will find eternal well of oil under Antarctica, We will excavate moon for resources, Grow lettuce on Mars, children in Africa will be fed, all will play in the desert carrying IPads 5.0 and sexualy transmitted diseases will be gone! We will live forever!

There's no time for us... there's no place for us... what is this thiiing that builds our dreams, that slips away from uuuus....

 What?

 @WAKIdesigns

I know exactly how it much costs to manufacture a popular "big brand" CF road frame, and its no where near as low cost as you'd expect (or your sources have indicated). I am not going to put the $$ cost onto a public forum as its information that has been told to me in confidence


Its also true that it is cheaper to manufacture carbon fibre than making the same frame in aluminium alloy once you go over a threshold of 500 units per frame size per model. The big problem with doing CF in smaller numbers is the huge upfront cost for the tooling, layup schedule design and training the work force to produce that schedule to required QC levels.

But its still not "cheap" in any way.

 A guy from Giant stated 1$ per road frame. So aluminum frame is more expensive than CF and it is not cheap? I designed and ordered an alu frame from 7005 butted tubing, with 7075 CNC. It will be 100% custom so Welding table will have to be set up for me, CNCing just one shot for me. All for less than 500€ in Poland. A 100% fcustom frame from Reynolds 953 costs 1000$£ to make in UK. A simple Cro-Mo DJ hardtail from quality Sanko 4130 Cro-Mo welded in Czech Republic costs under 150€. In Asia for 500+ units per size and same CNC/moulding for all, that will be freaking fraction of it. So that 1$ seems possible. Now - CF is cheaper? Ok... You take it, seems perfect!

Just watched a program on Jumbo from BA repaired in Cardiff. Tons of parts can be rececled because there's so much metal in it. Try that with A380... So, Alu can be recycled, if (sorry -when) prices go up, guess what will be "cheap". Im tired of geeking on bike stuff... Applying a half of a century old technologies and believing we are on some cutting edge and different - because of what? monster energy logo on the helmet?

 Are those the people that make/made that skull stem?

 Yep.

 Was this because Race Face was getting liquified a couple years ago?

 Yeah. The owners were selling it. They were willing to separate ownership of the divisions but preferred someone to buy everything.

 earthlinggb.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/haha-youre-poor.jpg?w=720

 $650 is alot of money...i cant afford that, and not many of my friends could. We arent "poor" we just dont want to spend $650 on a crankset. If i was able to, then i would definitely buy it. We all have to start somewhere, and if we dont keep dreaming and thinking and setting goals for ourselves then we will never get what we want. Thank you RF for making a quality product that i would love to own someday!!

 The SixC cranks that you had some issues with Warhorse were the previous version of the SIxC....This current SixC crank (released in 2012) has steel pedal inserts and 4.5mm thick chaintabs....which both help us be able to have these rated for use all the way up to full on DH shredding. You would not see the same issue with chaintabs on the current SixC. We always stand behind our products 100% and offer industry leading warranty service for all our products when legitimate defects or problems appear.

 /\ This is why you should buy RF products! /\

 got them, and they are brilliant!

 Why are you asking here?

 Got turbines and Atlas and they're solid, can't see respond being much different

 Yes Atlas cranks have a lifetime warranty. As do our Turbine cranks. RF Carbon cranks have a 3 year warranty.

 I wish you guys made better Chainrings! You cranks are great but shifting is so bad

 Not sure when the last time you used an Race Face chainring but our top of the line 10 spd Turbine rings get glowing reviews from OEM product mangers all the way through to everyday trail riders. We feel they are the best rings we have ever made - butter smooth shifting and super long wearing ....Maybe you should give a CDN made RF Turbine ring another try . Poor shifting performance can also be a by-product of poor derailleur set-up, frame alignment issues, and shifting in less then ideal conditions (ex. shifting under a HEAVY load).

www.pinkbike.com/news/Rocky-Mountain-Element-970-BC-Edition-Tested-2012.html
'The bike's Race Face Turbine crankset spun impressively smooth throughout our time on them. This includes a rather wet BCBR event, countless washings with the jet washer, and zero TLC from us - the best Press Fit bottom bracket in the biz. Shifting across the three rings was on par with the big names as well.' Mike Levy

 Yeah I trust my opinion and those of my friends who have also had issues with your 3X9 turbine rings. Chainsuck with a cleandrive drivetrain ,shifting properly easing off the load is unacceptable. The rings being the cause has also been verified by installing an alternet crankset and replicating and actually having chainsuck free shifting in worse conditions. I've been a fan of Race Face since I bought my first set of Turbine ISIS cranks. Since that time 12 ish years ago I've bought 2 more turbine, 2 Deus, multiple stems, some headsets, chainrings and many BB's. In that time your customer service has been quite good the few times I needed it, i.e headsets replaced a couple times without question; but a time comes when its time to try something new.

I personally went through 3 sets of Turbine rings in 2 years, the chainsuck was horrible. I do enjoy your product but I will not risk anymore of my money hoping the rings are better. I have since made the switch to Sram 2X10 and am currently evaluating options for my wife's bike.

I appreciate the link to the "glowing" review but one just needs to use google and its easy enough to find I am not the only one with Race Face chainsuck issues.

Now maybe your 10spd rings are better and if they are that is great to hear! Sadly, I wont be using my money to test them out.

 Like we said the 10 speed Turbine rings are a big improvement...and have been pretty trouble free from most everyone we have talked with. We had some issues with the 9 speed Turbines for sure...and those have gone through a redesign over a season ago and are working up to our standards now. It is also worth saying that the issues with the early versions of the Turbine 9 speed rings seems to be focus when the rings were on specific bike models....which shows that poor ring performance is not always caused by the ring themselves....some frame designs actually can encourage chainsuck and other similar issues with the layout of the chainstays/bb shell intersection. You are welcome to your opinion but rest assured we listen to feedback on our products and do push forward to make improvements. Thanks for your support of Race Face.

 Never heard of those 4 chaps from Liverpool eh?

 heavliy remixed.. www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZLzfX5CkFY

 Carbon is very densely compacted

 Single rings are already compatible with XX1 drive train if you pair it with at least a top guide. Setup with SIXC cranks it still comes in around 100g lighter. That's what I run and it's mint.

 That was the old company...They now have new ownership. Google search it and you can read more.

 not really, some hucking in the sea to sky, freeriding in Lytton, heli drop on powerslave in nelson, and then some retallack. just because there's a shot of a town name doesn't mean all the riding is from there.

 Don't Let Me Down (Gramatix Remix)

 Our Atlas cranks are on par with Saint as well - if you are looking for 'bombproof' alloy DH/FR cranks! You can have your personal reservations about running carbon parts but if Race Face did not believe in the strength and versatility of our SixC cranks we would not put them on the market! Rider safety and our brand reputation are to important to us to mess with releasing inferior products. Our R+D shows that the SixC cranks have no equal in the crank market when it comes to SixC's strength to weight ratio - but that being said these cranks may not be for everyone

 I am really stoked to see Raceface chime in on this article. A lot of manufactures ignore the feed back they get from customers, Raceface seams to really care about there customers.
Full discloser, I have owned many Raceface parts. I have even had to warranty a few. 1999 Raceface Turbine cranks (my fault). 2002 Raceface Prodigy DH cranks (bad batch). They have been great each time. When I did the warranty for the Turbine Marshal (great guy) called me direct and offered my and upgrade to Raceface North Shore cranks. I will be a customer for many years to come.

 I've only had budget Race Face parts so far (RideXC range) and they have been flawless. I bet their high end parts are even better. good to see them answering the coments here.

 I have owned race face bars and atlas FR cranks and there are flawless and I would purchase them again. If the carbon cranks are as good as you say then why do you only warrant them for 3 years instead of a Lifetime? Also why do you put rubber bungs at the end of the crank arms???

 Carbon is a different material than Alloy...and it is a DH race product. Expectations for its lifespan will be different then a full on burly alloy crankset...but you will never get the same strength to weight ratio ever out of alloy cranks....the rubber crank boots are there to protect the ends of the carbon cranks from getting scuffed....it is not required to run them...but it prevents cosmetic damage.

 Brilliant!! so this £600 product is an FRO product. I know two riders who have owned the Intense 951 'FRO' and both of them have snapped them within 12 months! It's a lot of money to spend on a product that you clearly don't have the confidence in to warranty it for a lifetime. Also if the rubber 'boots' are there to prevent cosmetic damage and are not really needed, then why have a read reviews to the opposite. If they are there for 'cosmetic' reasons then put them on all your cranks not just carbon ones. Time will tell but I suspect there will be plenty more pics on the net of these new SIXC cranks that have failed....just like there is of your previous SIXC ones.

 That weight you list is not including BB or all the hardware...our listed weight for the SIxC includes EVERYTHING (Cranks/spindle/bb/chainring/chainring bolts/spacers /crankbolt.