Pinkbike Poll: Should Enduro Transfer Stages Be as Tough as Pro XC Climbs?

Oct 10, 2014 at 14:55
by Richard Cunningham  
Jared needed a moment or two to compose himself before he could talk about the day s exexrtions.

Bad breath, or a tough day in the saddle? CrankWorx enduro winner Jared Graves is visibly fatigued from the toughest day in the history of the EWS.



The Enduro World Series race at Whistler Crankworx was described by most competitors as being the most physical race, by far, that they had ever experienced. Riders simply could not make the transfer stages on time and a significant number did not finish due to the difficulty of the transfer stage climbs. It has been accepted that enduro is intended to be primarily a downhill competition, and while the venues can include a number of climbing or pedaling sections, that those intervals would not be the prevailing factors for a victory. In the spirit of enduro, transfer stages are neutralized, meaning that the climbs to the start-line of each stage of the race, do not accumulate against a competitor's overall time. Transfer stages are timed, however, because the race must end on schedule, so riders are given a fixed time interval that they must meet in order to get to the start at their appointed minutes. Miss your start time and the clock starts running without you. This is true for riding or lift-access transfer stages.

The transitions up to the four valley stages are tough going there s little of the European-style fireroad cruising it s singletrack where you can t sit back ad spin your smallest gear.

Long and technical singletrack climbs made Whistler's transfer stages a races within a race.



Top racers in any mountain bike venue are assumed to be in top fitness, so it makes sense that promoters can expect competitors to be able to top a number of 500-meter climbs without lollygagging under a tree for an hour between stages to recover. What connotes a reasonable time interval for a transfer stage, however, was stretched to the breaking point at Whistler. Insiders say that the event had to be compressed and thus the transfer stages were intentionally tightened. Another reason, spoken more than once, was that the EWS is a pro series and that transfer stages can and should test the fitness levels of the top athletes. Both explanations, however, stretch the concept of transfer stages being neutral beyond purpose and good reason.

Thomas Lapeyrie launches onto one of the steeps. It s a pity with this section as the taping means the lower easier line is faster so we doubt we ll get to see anyone attempt this section at race pace.

Racers confronted trails that most riders choose to ride their DH bikes with. Those fit enough to have some energy in the bank at the start line benefitted immensely on Whistlers' infamous descents.



Eliminating a stage at the Whistler EWS would have made enough room to pad the transfer stages and would have prevented it from becoming an XC race within an enduro race - which essentially, it was. Racers often arrived exhausted, with under a minute or two to make their start times. The EWS is new, but two years is more than enough time to establish clear guidelines that dictate the difficulty and duration of neutral transfer stages. Getting the majority of competitors to the start line with enough energy and wits about them to put in a 100-percent performance on the timed downhill stages should be the priority, not testing the fitness levels of the top ten athletes on a given day.





Should Enduro Transfer Stages be as Tough as Pro XC Climbs?






Author Info:
RichardCunningham avatar

Member since Mar 23, 2011
974 articles

312 Comments
  • 436 6
 Let me preface these statements by saying that I'm an XC racer, primarily, but I'll be trying my hand in Enduro on off weekends this upcoming season.

Yes, many of them are very fit. Graves won an XC round down in OZ in the early part of the season. However, he's a very rare bird. 99% of these dudes, while they are very fit, would get their doors blown off by WC XCO racers.

But if you make them "Pro XC Climbs", meaning you're racing up the climbs, it's a different sport, catering to a different crowd. Also, it should be noted that the WC XCO courses had, at maximum, a climb that was like 8min and less than 3km long this year.

If you have them race up the climbs, too, it's basically becoming old school, single lap, John Tomac, Ned Overend and Thomas Frischknect XC races, but two days in a row, on bigger bikes. I'm a Lycra wearing, HT 29er riding XC nerd, and even I don't want that.
  • 97 6
 LeDuke. Yours is probably one of the best comments on this topic. Thanks
  • 19 3
 Agreed, I was looking for something that summed up my feels on the deal, and the Poll didn't do that too well. Things are hardly ever black and white. Thanks LeDuke.
  • 23 8
 Dont wear lycra... but i totally agree with this comment...cheers
  • 10 3
 That would be turning the sport into XC marathon basically. So it doesn't make any sense to make the toughest of transfer stages for the sake of it. Sometimes they are tough because accessing a great trail in another way is not possible and then it makes sense if there's enough time to do the transfer without sprinting (eg = racing).
Those who say enduro would then be then no different to DH without climbs should once in their life participate in a french enduro series. They'll be beaten by the end of the week end if they race it and not cruise it. Believe me! Though having only lift assist is not my prefered version of it but let's face it, enduro started with both versions more than 10 years ago. We're not inventing anything here.
  • 42 14
 I THINK THEY´VE MISSED THE POINT COMPLETLY!!! of course climbs shouldn´t be as hard as xco world cup level, because that´s just well xco then. But they should be hard in a way that it will affect the outcome of the race, enduro is all about being fit and good in all departments. So maybe if there´s three or four climbs, have one fire road, one singletrack, one hard climb....something like that, and the same with the downhills. As varied as posible. obiously in amateur level the way to make it esaier would just be to give more time between stages, but keep the climbs challenging!!The good answer to this poll has not been included. NO, BUT THEY SHOULD BE HARD ENOUGH TO AFFECT THE OUTCOME OF THE RACE, PROVING THE RIDER IS COMPLETE.
  • 7 3
 you make the set up like that where the climbs effect the outcome of the race then half the target crowd (ie non weight weenie riders who can't afford to put it all on the line for a 3-5min all or nothing run cause they have a job and responsibilities beyond their themselves) wont bother showing up. then were will you be? watching dudes in sporting more lycra and pads than.... than... (some one help me here)
  • 13 4
 I think it's fine to have tough transfer stages provided it is balanced. Whistler was one race of 7, and if we are only talking about the toughness of the transfers in one race then surely the others weren't as bad and that leveled the playing field a bit? To me the great thing about Enduro is that it brings together athletes from all different Mtb disciplines - some rounds will be more xc based, some more DH based. As long as the series continues to appeal to all styles of rider I don't think there is an issue...
  • 1 2
 yep exactly
  • 3 22
flag WaffleCrisp (Oct 11, 2014 at 8:04) (Below Threshold)
 I am a Lycra wearing, HT >27.5er riding XC nerd. Therefore, I am better than you
  • 2 5
 I wasn't speaking to you
  • 2 1
 We need more information on these transfer stages. What type of elevation grade change, distance and speed is expected? If they are all 500m. climbs at a faster pace then for sure it's gonna be miserable. Sit and spin with a 1x setup and 160mm travel is what it was suppose to be. It sounds like we've graduated to stand and grunt.
  • 4 1
 earn it to burn it... its what enduro is about.

There is no "race" up the hill other than a set time when you should be hitting the next stage. Perhaps the timing for next stages could be relaxed a bit... but keep them epic!
  • 4 1
 Rather than eliminating one of the stages to put more slack in the tight schedule, why didn't the organizers include an uplift as part of one or more transfers? This is done in Europe all the time, no?

In some of the videos I thought I noticed many of the racers moving at considerably less than full timed stage race speed...now I realize why. They were too drained from the transfers to ride the downhills with confidence at full race pace. From what I remember the climbing was around 2,500-3,000m with total downhill somewhere around 3,500m.

It's not as if Whistler has a lack of uplift capability...DUH!
  • 3 0
 ... and the bikes would change dramatically if the clock counted uphill. I've seen world cup xc guys go pretty fast down technical stuff on those forward angled, skinny tired, 8kg machines and I'm pretty sure that would be the type of bike used. Personally I like the trenduro bikes, way more sexy!
  • 1 0
 Well said!
  • 4 3
 One of the main issues wasn't well described in the article: The overly tough climbs make it more likely that racers crash on the timed stages simply because they are exhausted. The health of the racers must always be the center of considerations, unnecessary danger needs to be avoided.
On this page Anita Gehrig (Finished 10th PRO Women) describes how numberous hits made her chest hit her handlebar, because she was feeling so weak after all those uphills and could bearly hold onto her bike. That's just irresponsible by the organizers, especially towards the female competitors.

translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mtb-news.de%2Fnews%2F2014%2F08%2F14%2Fueberleben-ist-alles-die-gehrig-twins-bei-der-ews-6-whistler-blog%2F
  • 5 0
 The whole point of liasons, in EVERY racing format they are used, is for those sections to not be at racing speed. The reasons differ: WRC uses them because they don't want drivers racing at full race speed on open roads with civilian traffic. Timed stages are closed courses. Start times are more a function of when things need to start to get everybody through all the day's stages before nightfall(unless there are specifically night stages, of course.)

they should have an effect, in that you should be fit enough to make your start time, but it should be a reasonable standard you have to meet. Since it's not a timed stage, I would argue that it shouldn't even really have to be a pro level of fitness. because you shouldn't be having to make a racing level of effort.
  • 183 47
 The goal of enduro is not for washed up WC DH racers, it's for complete cycling athletes so the transfers should definitely have an impact on the outcome otherwise it's 3-5 DH-Lite races, that's not enduro has I envioned it
  • 71 17
 ^Exactly! What is the difference between downhill and "enduro" without the climbs?
  • 20 36
flag yetirider150 (Oct 10, 2014 at 15:25) (Below Threshold)
 so what your saying is over 4 plus hours of racing you dont want a brake?
  • 96 6
 About 40mm
  • 5 21
flag jedrzeja (Oct 10, 2014 at 15:28) (Below Threshold)
 less travel
  • 74 16
 totally agree here. ENDURO comes from endurance, and if you dont have the endurance to get up the hill, and then pound down fast, then this isnt the format for you. I agree with not timing the up stages, just have a time limit on how long it can allowably take.

DH is for those who dont want to pedal up. This is not the format for retired DHers trying to stay competitive. Enduro is an expertise. Earn your turns, there are bound to be tough enduros and easy enduros.

Maybe not "Any old joe" but a LOT more people can ride fast downhill when not fatigued. It takes a real athlete to ride fast downhill when they are already a bit tired, and a lot more strategy comes into it.
  • 25 13
 "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire. Go race DH and ride the chair-lift."
  • 100 22
 This might be a bit silly, but doesn't this start to create a safety issue? If you're making riders climb flat out, then descend DH track level trails flat out as well, for six hours at a time, eventually something has to give. The pros are all super fit, but they're also human beings and there's a limit to how hard anyone can push (even Graves), I don't particularly want that limit to be defined by who gets carried off the mountain on a spine board first.
.
Also, it raises that wonderful spectre of performance enhancers, if you're going to constantly make the riders give 100% someone is going to look at ways to find 101%, not that it hasn't already happened...
  • 49 8
 Transfer stages shouldn't be made inherently difficult that defines the outcome of the race, but, within some of the stages should feature less dh specific profiles to test people's fitness a little better. The focus of enduro races are the timed stages, not the transfer sections. Otherwise it just becomes an XC race. The fact that people are transporting themselves from stage to stage is all we should ask of them. Its not of benefit to use an XC bike nor does it help to use a DH bike. So its perfect as is.
  • 10 7
 There is nothing saying they have to climb flat out, There is plenty of allowable time to make the climb, catch your breath, and pound the down hill in the condition that these guys are in. There is no need to bring performance enhancing drugs into the game. If that is ever the case, I'm sure Travis Tygart will get involved and destroy every hero there is to our sport and drive it to shit. Just sayin.
  • 11 3
 Travis Tygart doesn't destroy heroes, he weeds out the cheats.
  • 9 8
 When everyone of them is doing it, which we all knew and cant deny, they are all cheats and are all heros,
  • 6 1
 whats the vote on fireroads?
  • 12 2
 The problem is if people are physically exhausted at the start of a DH section the chances of crashing become much higher, so the average non-professional rider needs at least 5-10 minutes to rest.
  • 8 2
 Amongst roadies the only heroes are Bassons, Simeoni and the few others who chose the harder path (being clean and speaking out against drugs), which is what makes a hero. Cheats ain't heroes and never will be. Even they know it.

If all the traffic is going faster than the signposted limit, and you are just keeping up with traffic, you are still breaking the law and if you get busted by the cops you deserve it just as much as those who didn't get caught. Same thing.

I too question incredible aerobic performance. That's why it's easier to look up to the likes of Hill, Peaty, Zink etc.
  • 1 1
 Simeoni was suspended for a couple years for doping i believe, i think this best be left for beer and burgers man...i think we could both for a while. They all made an amazing show for us for years and inspired a new generation of cyclists. Saying who is and is not a hero's is difficult as you never really know the underlying stories.
  • 21 8
 So why not make the whole race timed and keep the downhills gnarly. Then it will be back to good ol fashioned bike racing. No splitting hairs. Run the bike you can survive on.
  • 13 3
 ^ that's a great idea, but top level xc racers are still excellent descenders. If they can pull away on the climbs, they might be able to hold the lead to the finish.
  • 35 10
 Should I even give a fuck about this...
  • 24 4
 Timing uphills will kill the "exciting" part of enduro quickly. So much more time can be made up on an uphill vs. down. Guys will start choosing über light XC bikes and the downhills will be a sideshow.
  • 9 4
 Not to turn this into a doping thread, but Travis Tygart is a douche bag of epic proportions. He didn't clean anything up, he just hung a high profile athlete (while giving other huge cheats a pass to rat) just to further his ambitions, and then punched out.
  • 10 4
 If that's the case, then XC riders are the best all around riders...Which is what I hear enduro riders saying is what the spirit of enduro is. ....being an all around rider...being excellent ascenders and descenders....or keep it as is and as more of a descending contest. the question is, what do enduro riders want to be" tested" on?
  • 10 0
 Whatever keeps 140-180mm travel bikes racing. If it gets too hard of a climb shorter travel will dominate. If it gets too easy longer travel will win.
  • 30 4
 I love drugs, I don't know what you fools are on about. Drugs are awesome and should be mandatory.
  • 6 0
 The climbs should be challenging, but not as tough as XC pro climbs, I'm sure is not easy to climb on a bike that big, wearing a full face, protective of gear and a back pack...
  • 10 7
 Is this question really being asked? They should definitely have some transfer stages that test the riders physically, otherwise it's just downhill without the chairlift. It's embarrassing that this is even being discussed.
  • 11 0
 I thought the idea of Enduro was to race like we all ride. If I want to ride a sick dh trail then I pedal my ass up to the top of the trailhead. That's how we all ride.
  • 4 0
 @Neverlost, totally agree, can't have Enduro without endurance
  • 2 7
flag VTwintips (Oct 10, 2014 at 20:53) (Below Threshold)
  • 6 4
 No, just no. These EWS athletes are the best athletes in the world on bicycles. This whole "dh-lite" verbage is inaccurate. These guys are racing multiple DH races in one race on trail bikes, then climbing to each stage on top of it.
  • 4 0
 I did a race once where every donut I ate took seconds off the race clock. Could we encourage something like that in enduro? Would be epic! Kidding... but seriously, what's the real reason for making these guys pedal if it isn't timed. Does it just force them to use more of a "trail" bike? Or is it just because "that's the way I ride with my buddies on the weekend"? Enduro is kind of cool the way it is but it still doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
  • 9 2
 if you are not kidding then this is an agressively stupid comment even by pinkbike standards. the model for the EWS is the WEC motorbike championship. I never heard anyone say David Knight was a wuss because moto enduro riders have enough time to cruise on transfers. You haven't considered that if you include practice runs a typical enduro might require 50-60k of riding in a weekend. go ahead, make the climbs tough-sure as shit the peanut gallery will say enduro is for washed up xc racers.
  • 4 7
 If enduro is currently for washed up downhill racers, why don't downhill racers at the top of their game just step in and clean up and reap the benefits?
  • 11 2
 Because they're busy racing downhill.
  • 3 0
 Minaar raced, Peaty Raced Josh was going to race etc.
  • 14 2
 Come on now. Enduro isn't supposed to be XC with tougher descents. It's a multi stage format with timing for the DH sections. That's what it's always been, that's what it is. Do we really want XC whippets in Lycra cleaning up because they won the climbs? That's a quick way to kill the sport before it matures.
Seems to me someone's looked at it and said "wow enduro is awesome, let's change it"
  • 5 4
 Yes they raced, but tried really hard to show how little commitment they were putting in the race, making fun of enduro on social networks, posting beer photos, etc. One could think that's a strategy to hide that they couldn't really compete...
  • 3 2
 enduro has always been a race with non timed uphill and timed downhill. But normaly, racers have time to breathe when the uphill is finished.
They should ask to jerome clementz, he knows enduro better than everyone as he won "every" enduro race before EWS.

@chal0080
Enduro is not for "washed up" dh racers, JC (FB, RA etc etc) are racing enduro for at least 5 or 6 years and jared, richie etc are still able to race and win a DH race.
  • 4 0
 Does the problem even exist? Sure RC wrote a nice article about a nice question, but a lot of it seems to be meant to only stir up the discussion. Enduro climbs as tough as pro XC? That's stretching it. All of this is based on Whistler, but did Whistler not have a problem with the chairlifts at that time?
Based on what I see around the world, no organiser sees this as the way to go. Sure, sometimes there is a difficult climb, because it's the only way to get to a great downhill. Also you have to be really low fitness to not reach time limits, if there are time limits at all.
Chill out guys. It's not a direction the sport is heading to. My opinion is that enduro should have offroad riding to stages. The cool thing about enduro is that you can do it on bikes that you can ride trails with every day. That is something to be protected.
  • 11 2
 Imho they simply got what they "wanted" and enduro became the MMA of mountain biking. They were talking about a sport for an average Joe who doesn't have the speed for XC and skills for DH but the opposite happened ant they created a sport that requires both XC speed and DH skills as well as a bike that's both lightweight and durable and thus extremely expensive.
  • 1 0
 That's a valid point Extremmist, but I think both of the promise of an average Joe sport you mention and you conclusion about reality are true. Sure, high level enduro racing requires a purpose built bike and it'll be expensive. That said, average Joe enduro riding can be done on a relatively cheap and really versatile bike (like 120-130 F/R travel), that you could XC marathons or even XC races on. Maybe a wheel/tire swap is a good idea, but that's it. You can race on the trail bike people use a lot and do bike holidays with. Can't do that (not if fun is the goal) with an XC hardtail let alone a DH bike. The nice thing about enduro is: both fully kitted out pro's and average Joe's can enter and compete in the same event.
  • 2 1
 Of course they can enter and compete, the problem is that if Joe (or his bike) lacks either speed or technical skills, he will lose the race before he even clips in.
After all, you can as well enter an XC race on a DH bike, I don't think it's illegal...
  • 6 3
 Are they far better than me at every aspect of riding? Yes. But to say "EWS athletes are the best athletes in the world on bicycles" does not make sense. Maybe most well rounded. Can they climb like a WC XC master? Of course not. Can they descend like a WC DH master? Heck no. To me they are incredible, but they are a master of nothing,compared to the specialists as I mentioned above.....but Are pretty dang good at everything ....and that is part of the beauty of enduring...its a test of overall riding...but shouldn't be flat out compared to xc and DH.
  • 6 3
 maynardle- What drugs are you on? A fair amount of these guys were among the best in DH and some were on par with the best WC XC riders, or "specialists" as you say... no one is straight up comparing enduro to WC DH or XC races but you're severely underestimating a lot of these dudes. Please PM me your contact because I want whatever you're having.
  • 4 2
 maynardle- Really? Did you not see Graves on the World Champ DH podium (on a trail bike), then win a XC race with a blown out fork within 12 months of each other?
  • 4 3
 That's graves, he is unique. And I don't remember him winning a wc, ever. I'm not saying he's not a great rider, just not dh fast. So he podiumed at world champs. Barel won a ews this year, and he won his last wc years ago. None of this means anything. Dh racers are the fastest riders in the world full stop. Xc riders are the fastest up and down the hill. Enduro riders represent the fastest average dudes. Its like decathlon. Dh is the 100m sprint and xc is the marathon.
  • 5 3
 Wow Russ, you are also way off. "So he podiumed at World Champs". Yeah, he beat 96 out of 100 DH racers that do it for a living, on a trail bike. They are 110% DH fast. Hell, a top 30 EWS racer smoked everyone a couple years ago at a DH race where a few WC DH racers train... again on a trail bike. It seems that for some reason, people really don't understand what kind of speed these EWS guys and gals are dealing with.
  • 5 2
 Hahahaha, so making the podium at World Champs doesn't make you "dh fast"... This may sound harsh but holy that was one of the dumbest posts I've ever read. What world do you live in where only winning a WC stop makes you "dh fast"? The ignorance is mind-blowing.
  • 3 0
 But generalizing the entire Enduro field alongside the talents of Graves or Mosely or ACC is just unfair -- %95 of the Enduro racing populace simply can't keep up with that skill.

Graves is a freak of nature who's skill trumps many, many, many talented people across multiple disciplines, which makes the EWS so attractive for so many riders right now -- he's the man to beat.
  • 5 3
 Ambatt- Look at how close the times are for the top 30 EWS racers. They are all at a very similar level. There's a reason why the WC DH folks can't just hop on a trail bike and finish well at an EWS event. Graves is on top right now, but look at how close the others are. It takes WC DH skill and speed, with supreme endurance.

Same thing is happening at the local/national level. Top pro DH racers are showing up at enduros and are not getting the results that they expected.
  • 1 0
 It'll be interesting to see the progression of Martin Maes. He had the skills to win a DH world cup in the junior field and wins EWS stages as well. Endurance is something you build over the years, so I think he's got it in him to be the next best Graves-like beast. It's a shame he got such a lot of bad luck this year. Also check out Francois Bailly-Maitre's heritage. He belonged to the best few French XC racers as a U23. His steady DH skills progression is starting to make him win races. I think if we look a bit further there are more really allround racers. Graves seems to be unique, but don't forget you first have to enter an XC or DH race to find out where you're at. Lots of riders don't do that, at least not seriously, so we'll never know how allround they really are.
  • 1 3
 I think the question is the term "endurance"........ A 4 mile climb to a 1min 30 second timed decent? 3-4 times in a day sounds more like a XC race to me. I always thought the enduro part was the racing 5-7 race speed runs in a couple days not the grueling climb to the start line. I think anyway you can get to the start should be allowed climb, shuttle, or lift. To me its about the endurance of being on your bike at race speeds giving 100% to your race runs through out the entire race over the couple days. Climbing 40 miles over a weekend to race 5 miles is marathon racing not enduro..............
  • 2 0
 Last time I checked there was a direct relationship between the amount of climbing and descending meters of altitude ;-). You might not like climbing, but the only way to ensure the versatility of enduro is to make riders climb on bikes that allow that. Take the climbing bit out and we'll end up with multi-course downhill racing. Allow shuttling and access to shuttle facilities becomes a factor in the racing results. I truly enjoyed the Val d'Iserère Coupe de France enduro I did that had lift access, but it should not allways be like that and riders should man up if it is not. The Roc d'Azur enduro has tough climbs in the liaisons but pays back with awesome trails in the stages and you're free to climb at your own pace. If you brought the 38T ring on your 1x setup: Man up! It's not marathon racing if you have to earn your descends by climbing. It only becomes marathon racing if you time the climbs.
  • 1 0
 Since your from France you might like this article........http://m.pinkbike.com/news/Beginners-Guide-to-Enduro-What-the-hell-is-it-2012.htm . So like I said before enduro is the endurance of the timed dh run and how many of those race runs are in one day or over 2 days. It has nothing to do with the uphill climb or the super peddler up the mountain to the next stage. Being the first to the top only marginally gives you and advantage on the trail, maybe less dust, maybe a less worn in trench or less blown out berm. Personally I would like to see 10 dh races a day on a lighter shorter travel bike......now that's endurance in my book. Taking a pounding on a shorter travel bike over 10 runs is more endurance than racing for 2 mins down a trail and climbing for 4 miles between stages. Enduro should be 7 super d races in a day. There you get your uphill timed and downhill timed.
  • 1 0
 Fix-the-spade: this is professional athletics bud...the last statement in your comment is accurate.

Most attendees are not there to realistically podium. If you can't handle the physical requirements to climb and descend, enduro isn't for you.
  • 1 0
 @idafreerida, we can agree to disagree ;-). I'm not from France though. Different orientation and order of red-white-blue. I just race there from time to time, because I can drive over there and it's a beautiful country and a mountainbiking paradise. The French were minding their own business and racing enduro style years before anyone here knew about it.
  • 3 0
 There is still a big difference between EWS enduro and older french enduro : practice...

(oh, and ↖ this is a french flag)
  • 5 0
 @Fix-the-Spade I agree with your comment about safety concerns, especially considering these full-DH stages are being raced on mid-travel trail bikes that don't have the forgiveness for the mistakes fatigue can introduce.

I raced the Whistler EWS and the fourth stage of the day on Ride Don't Slide was the most technical, and, after 2400m of climbing, where a lot of people barely had time to catch their breath first, safety was a worry. I know a lot of people were just in survival at that point and simply didn't have the strength to actually race that stage. After all that we then raced TOTW to the valley, 10km of bike park racing, but we at least had an hour to re-group and refuel.

It was the toughest race I've ever done, and the transitions were brutal, particularly for stage four. That said, I'm not sure I'd change anything. I had an amazing day, one of the best ever on my bike, and the point of Enduro is to push every aspect of your riding and fitness. Yes, it could have gotten dangerous towards the end so you couldn't push hard, but it was the same for everybody unless you were some kind of freakish super human. At the time I wished for more transition time, but in hindsight it was an awesome day.

Not sure I'll ever experience arm-pump like that ever again though. Well, until next year's race anyway. Riding technical single-track one-handed at times to shake-out your other arm is terrifying.
  • 4 0
 On the subject of the poll question: they shouldn't be WC XC level climbs, else that would be marathon XC, but they certainly should be tight enough to make you want, nay *have*, to get to the top requiring a decent amount of effort.

The only issue with this, however, is that you could potentially turn off a lot of the amateur riders that are in it just for fun and the thrill and can't afford to dedicate that much time to training. Do you, then, have Pro and Am transition times different? Otherwise a big drop in attendance numbers from less-fit Am will affect entry money and funding, which is bad for the sport.

I know from the day that a lot of the riders around me, even if they were making start-times or not, said they won't race Whistler next year. It just wasn't fun enough. I know it's the WORLD SERIES so it shouldn't be easy, but the sport needs to be accessible to grow. We have this debate about DH and why it's not bigger than it is all the time, don't make Enduro exclusive too else it will also suffer.
  • 2 1
 @XCQC: Fabien Barel is a "washed-up DH racer" and he seems to be doing rather well actually... As World Enduro Champion...

Perhaps DH racers are fitter than you think?
  • 1 0
 Agreed
  • 1 0
 You don't have to be insulting to try to prove a point. It makes you sound stupid.
  • 1 0
 We're talking general terms... Not the best few dudes.
  • 2 2
 I did see it...amazing rider. So are you saying enduro riders generally are as good at ascending and descending as xc and dh riders? If they are, xc and dh riders aren't using their time in their specialized arenas very well. But this isn't the case. Generally, enduro riders are excellent all around riders but typically can't hang at the top at other venues....because they spread their time out training everything the Mtn has to offer....which is rad...I just don't want to hear about people saying Enduro riders are as fast as dh riders.
  • 3 1
 @maynardle3 you are comparing apple and oranges... enduro and dh are completely different sports, with different training, different skills, you cannot just say one athlete is faster than the other. With dh you have a smooth, well thought out and maintained course, which you have plenty of time to try as much as you can. When you go down for the race you know every single rock and you just have to follow the line you planned. With enduro you have a rough natural trail, which you can try maybe once or twice and that by the time the race starts has probably changed so you have to constantly adapt and rethink your line while you're racing. And you have more than one, with tough transfers in between.
  • 2 3
 Yeah you're (maynadle) assuming and generalizing about those guys... based on what? That they decide to race enduro instead of downhill? Did it ever cross your mind that maybe some of the riders enjoy racing enduro more? Nah, you're right. The top guys only race what they feel they're best at, not what they enjoy doing most. I just don't want to hear people blindly assuming someones skill level because of their preferred style of riding. It sounds ridiculous... and so does this convo. I'm out to do blow off a hooker's buttocks and gonna ride my bike to Mexico.
  • 1 1
 ...so fireroads?
  • 2 0
 If you want to race up hill stay with the Xc races
  • 2 2
 Justgivemean......I think it is fair to say the top downhill racers are the fastest mountain bike riders in the world. Its just like saying usain bolt is the fastest runner. Even if xc or enduro racers are better riders, they are not faster.
  • 1 2
 Bolt may be the fastest sprinter, but is he fastest marathon runner? if you call both sports "running" you can say he's the fastest runner, but are you sure that's fair?
  • 1 3
 Of course its fair, noone says gokart champions are the fastest drivers in the world, just the fastest gokart drivers. The marathon champions are the fastest marathon runners. The 100m sprinters are the fastest runners. Dhi champions are the fastest riders.
  • 3 1
 ok this has just gotten stupid. Stop over analyzing everything and go ride your bikes. Smile
  • 1 3
 Yes maynardle, I'm saying that the top enduro racers are fast as top dh racers. It would be ignorant to say or think otherwise.
  • 1 0
 So really if you think about it there is only 2 disciplines of mountain biking anything with uphill in a race is XC everything else is DH lol
  • 5 0
 dirt jumping does have its ups and downs Wink
  • 2 0
 +1

I'd do the FEST series but there were too many steep uphills.
  • 1 3
 I don't think dj is a discipline lol its a skill! But to each their own. Smile
  • 2 0
 ^ Pretty sure DJ is a discipline.
  • 2 1
 As is Big Mountain freeride. I think Andreu can ride his Rampage line FASTER than any dh racer could. Doesn't that make him the fastest? What about the guys who do the down hill world record attempts on the side of volcanoes aren't they actually the fastest?
  • 1 0
 ah i forgot about those volcano dude, they are definitely the fastest.
  • 2 0
 Yes, according to posters here, Graves is a one-off freak of nature. That's why he wins by over ten minutes...oh, never mind. I think everyone here gets to vote, based on the number of enduros they have actually ridden. Bonus points if you've helped promote or organize one. Anyone who hasn't should have the Marco Osborne quote from his interview tattooed to the backside of their eyelids.
  • 1 0
 @choppertank3e: Brendog was actually quite a bit faster/smoother on the gnarly sections than Andreu....

Most of the FR guys in Rampage ride their lines slower than the DH racing crowd would - really just the tricks that separate them.
  • 1 0
 I organize dh and enduro raves, does that mean I get two votes? What's the Osborne quote?
  • 2 0
 " You have to be able to last all day and ride more than one DH trail without much practice. You have to be very fit on the bike, as well as have the skills to go fast on the downhill stages. YOU HAVE TO LEARN TO SUFFER and PUSH THROUGH THE PAIN."

Marco Osborne, 2014 PB interview.
  • 1 0
 Russ-you get two votes for every enduro and minus one for every DH.
  • 68 3
 What ever means nescesary to access the best routes for timmed descending stages. Use lifts if they exists, or gnarly death climbs if that's what is available. One of the beauties of enduro over DH, is timmed descending stages can be located in areas not accessed by dh bikes/shuttles/lifts. An enduro timmed stage should never be restricted because a climb is too easy or too difficult.
  • 10 3
 ^^^^^ this
  • 10 3
 This is exactly what Enduro is about, it's racing the trails the average everyday joe rides on. Some are more peddaly then others, some are more DH than others, some have big flat sections or some are just a nice medium pitch the whole way. Point is that if you time the ups or make them too difficult to reach in the allotted time then it will just become a who's the fittest competition not who's the best and fastest riding our everyday style trails.
  • 7 6
 ^^ That is what the "local" level enduro races are, and it's awful. These big flat sections and climbs during the timed stages are unacceptable. Enduro means an endurance DH race to me, that's why I travel to do it. I don't wanna drive 13 hours to a race and have some timed flat and xc sections. You can get that anywhere. Give me gnarly DH timed sections and who cares how much climbing in between.
  • 3 0
 I thought enduro was just meant to be "mountain biking". WC XC is just basically road riding on gravel/grass, with the odd steep rocky chute. WC DH is full on gnarly ridiculousness. Surely enduro should be the medium ground. Time everything, make the climbs pretty damn tough to find the fitness, but make sure the damn downhills require more than 20mm of travel and skinny tyres, whilst also making the DH sections massively outweigh the climbs in length, so that the overall race time isnt won by just rocking up on a XC bike to get to the top the quickest and then walk down the DH because your "mountain" bike cant cope with the mountain!
  • 1 3
 Isn't that just a DH race then with a 3 stages instead of one? Either way I think the point is to make sure the race doesn't become just a who's the fittest competition because its easy to make up time going uphill but hard to make up time going down so guys that are fit will always have a huge advantage if the ups are timed.
  • 1 0
 @ridinfree you're right
At the begining, enduro was just like your average sunday's ride with your friend, but with all the downhill sections timed.
  • 45 8
 If this is just about Whistler then only those of us that actually raced at Whistler should be able to vote.

It's been said a few times now, the event was put on in a manner that fits with the history of riding/racing in the Whistler Valley (outside of the bike park).

A pro level event should test the pro's.

The hardest cut off was to Stage 4. Looking at the results for Open men 123 riders finished Stage 3 and 120 riders finished stage 4. For Open Women there was 29 finish Stage 3 and 28 finish Stage 4.

So all this yammering for 4 riders? Can you say over hyped problem???
  • 9 2
 Well said. You see more guys pulled and DNFed after the first couple of laps in XCO and quals in DHI. To me, as someone who spectated through what was provided via social media and PB, Vital, etc., it looked like people going on epic rides in Whistler Valley. Long, but not overly grueling ups, and some tasty downhills. And, I'm also profoundly jealous of you. Looked like an amazing event. Must have been even better in person!
  • 6 2
 Sense from Shirk there.

I think Enduro is just fine but I would like an AM Series in the style of the classic WORCA races.

Timed climb, position or points awarded - Short rest - Timed descent, position or points awarded.

Overall points or position (not overall time) decides the winner.

Savage format. Climb like you're in an XC race but you descend like you're in an Enduro.
  • 9 0
 Those numbers belonged in the article. They made it seem like half the field couldn't get to the top. Reasonable to drop a handful
  • 5 0
 Agreed: if the transfer climbs are cutting a very small percentage of the field, but do not affect the overall rider's standings, they are serving their purpose: testing rider's endurance, pacing and recovery abilities, and self reliance abilities (in case of mechanicals etc)...this is not encouraging riders to race up climbs, but rather to pace themselves for ideal fitness preservation/recovery before the timed descents.

In my mind, this is EXACTLY in the spirit of "Enduro": you need to make the time on the descents, while knowing how to pace yourself on climbs to have the most in the tank to do so without being cut.

With such a small amount of the field being eliminated, I would assume this race struck an excellent balance of offering a challenge to endurance and pacing, without encouraging any uphill racing. Sounds great.

(and yeah, the cutoff times probably should be scaled by category)
  • 1 3
 That already exists, they call it super d. Not multiple stages, but it's a xc race with some DH. I hope that your suggested format comes to fruition. That way I don't travel a long distance to race a labeled "enduro" race, just to find out that some xc guy is the only one that has a chance with all the flat pedalling and xc timed stages. Give me the gnarly descents timed, then who cares how much climbing in between timed stages.
  • 1 1
 to be clear, I agree with Shirk and LeDuke, but not with jclnv:

In Enduro, I think your climb time on a transfer stage should NEVER affect the overall standings. Unless you are cut off by lack of fitness (underprepared) or inability to fix a mechanical (underprepared and/or made a dumb mistake)
  • 2 2
 I totally agree in not wanting the Enduro format to change. I would just like one or two races like I described in addition.

I think it's the fairest way to find out the best all-round rider. XC races massively favour the climbs/fitness of the rider, Enduro is DH stage racing with a bit of XC fitness. Neither tell you who the most complete rider is.
  • 2 1
 I thought enduro was just meant to be "mountain biking". WC XC is just basically road riding on gravel/grass, with the odd steep rocky chute. WC DH is full on gnarly ridiculousness. Surely enduro should be the medium ground. Time everything, make the climbs pretty damn tough to find the fitness, but make sure the damn downhills require more than 20mm of travel and skinny tyres, whilst also making the DH sections massively outweigh the climbs in length, so that the overall race time isnt won by just rocking up on a XC bike to get to the top the quickest and then walk down the DH because your "mountain" bike cant cope with the mountain!
  • 3 0
 Totally agree with shirk. If you don't ride 12-15k very a week, then you probably shouldn't race an event with 6-7k per day. The biggest problem with enduros around here is the climbs are way to easy, so the pack does not get spread out, and you see 1-2hr waits to start at the line, and you generally have to make a pass or two by novice riders.
  • 2 0
 Totally agree. The one enduro I did at the canyons in Utah was way too easy climbwise. They gave you hours to climb a couple miles. Then we all had to wait for 2-3 hours at the start gate
  • 2 0
 Mike and Marshal add another good point:

transfer stages should spread out the pack some, to avoid wait times for timed stages. This would add the tactic that some riders may rider faster uphill to start the transfer earlier and start warmed up, or conversely to have more time to recover...while others might climb more conservatively to spend less energy...allowing riders to play to their recovery abilities and strengths, which shows completeness as a rider...(you better know how much you've got in the tank when riding way out in the mountains!)

Transfer stages should make riders think about how to approach them to get the most out of them...sometimes it might be more spirited riding, sometimes more relaxed...neither racing uphill nor totally dragging feet should be encouraged, rather test a rider's all around self awareness and preparedness.
  • 1 0
 dualsuspensiondave (2 days ago)
That already exists, they call it super d. When I first heard about enduro races other than Megavalanche back in like 2006 they were being talked about in Decent magazine along with super Ds. Now I never hear about super D. What is the difference? I thought Super D was just the North American term that faded out when Enduro started getting hyped.
  • 1 0
 Super D format is still popular here for some reason. Usually about a 20-25 minute race that is just one stage, and has some better than XC descending but also has some climbs in it. Not my cup of tea.
  • 1 0
 It's all racing. No need for any style to die out if people like it. I'll race it all except DH as I think it's poor VFM.
  • 46 12
 Yeah man, needs to be easier, racing shouldn't be hard or physically demanding, I don't want to finish a race and actually feel tired.
And while we're at it lets drop the "enduro" and call it the World "just f*cking around in the woods" series
  • 5 2
 Brilliant! Thanks Big Grin
  • 7 3
 Yeah, I race Enduro. The xc guys smoke my ass. I never could keep up to the DH guys. But I asked my bike sponser for a raise. They just pulled their support out of DH racing, and cut the XC budget by half. Enduro is great.
  • 3 3
 As far as I remember these reasonably lightweight mid travel non-XC non-FR non-DH bikes called enduro/all mountain/trail/backcountry/... were originally manufactured for "just f*cking around in the woods" until someone came with a "brilliant" idea and started racing them.
  • 32 1
 I am an amateur biker who works a full time job and parties probably much too much living in Whistler. I competed in amateurs in Crankworx and was able to make all of the transfers with time to spare. Granted it was extremely difficult but that is what I expected for the pinnacle of the sport. If I can do it, the pros can and that is what the EWS is for.
  • 19 2
 I deliberately took my time on all of the transfers. I walked a ton, and when I pedaled, I took my time. I filled my bottles between stages, ate food, and even stopped at the Alpine Cafe for a coffee. I had time to spare at every stage.

It was no XC race within the race.

The EWS in Whistler was a typical big day for many folks, it wasn't out of the norm, nor were the trails too technical. Transfers could have been far worse, and stages far more technical.

The EWS is supposed to be the top tier of the discipline. You wouldn't expect most riders to be able to ride the race lines on world cup DH tracks, nor would you expect them to clean every climb at full pace for 90 minutes.

Beer league enduro should be the same. If you're not fit, you're off the back. If you can't descend, same.

Whiners need to:
a) get fitter and suck it up

or

b) try some entry level races first

or

c) all of the above
  • 4 1
 nailed it
  • 2 0
 This is bang on.
  • 11 2
 If this is the case, there should be a poll whether enduro descents should be as technical as downhill descents... Enduro is for the all around rider, not the rider who specializes in one specific discipline.
  • 2 3
 Exactly. And really, who cares about the climbing in the liaisons anyway? Give me the gnarliest descents timed, I could care less how much climbing it takes to get there.
  • 10 4
 I straight up wouldnt race. its hard enough dealing with trying to pace yourself up the climb in a manner so its easier and you have time to spare. tighter times mean more stress, mentally and physically. think about whistler, riders only had 5-10 minutes max if you took the climbs at a decent pace. by the 4th stage most of us could barely ride properly, and that isnt fun, its dangerous. Also, think about mechanicals, liasons are an opportune time to fix anything wrong with your bike. getting a flat tire in a stage is detrimental enough, having it ruin your entire race would be absurd. Honestly most liasons arent taped well so if you only had 5 minutes to spare anyway, you'd now be race over if you missed a turn and had to take a lengthy detour.
  • 9 2
 "Having a flat ruin your race would be absurd" - You realize that this is true for literally EVERY single other type of bike racing?

Beginner should be easy to get new people in the sport, but pro is pro, if you cant hack the climb and race the downhill, time to head back to expert or sport.
  • 8 0
 Well, there are different ways to think about a couple of your points.

Either they need to relax the times, people need to get fitter so they are less winded by the climbs, or people need to get faster at climbing.

A flat tire in XCO and DHI, unless it's at the end of the run or in the tech zone, more or less ruins your race. Why should Enduro be different? Choose your equipment, and your line, properly. Take risks, or don't.

At the end of the day, it's a bike race, and the standards are not unreasonable, at all. No, they shouldn't be full-gas climbs, and they aren't, not even close to it for the fastest guys. Nobody is standing and hammering out of corners to get back up to full speed on a dirt or gravel road climb. No one. And if they are too hard for others, well, that's a personal problem. Ride more, train harder, train smarter, rest more when you can, as much as you can.
  • 11 2
 Where is the "I dont give a flying f*ck" option?
  • 6 2
 Make it Hard, Cycling is supposed to be Hard... I did a couple of the BC enduro Series events and while it was very fun and well organized, I saw people smoking pot and drinking beer between stages.. seriously?? I could have pushed my 45lb DH bike up the climbs and been further ahead.
  • 5 3
 For the record nobody who smoked pot or drank during the BC or KR Enduro series stages finished in a position worth mentioning. Sure we all drank after but that's not the point. At the pro level the transfers should be tough but in it's infancy here in North America enduro serves the community best by being ultra-inclusive and accessible. It's better if the average Joe biker can complete the course and live to tell the tale. Making non pro level enduro ultra-exclusive by the nature of the climbs won't serve the greater good... the greater good being more bike sale, trails, and tales. DH is already ultra-exclusive and last time I checked it didnt have a strong growth here in BC.
  • 6 1
 For the record in an enduro series that I did last year... the guy that smoked the most pot, was on the podium each race against clean athletes. The guy has great endurance, and great bike skills. It's worth noting, that the pot and beer are not worth noting.
  • 1 0
 Should look into pots effect on heart rate over blood pressure It's worth mentioning
  • 5 1
 The only reason it was a problem at whistler is because they had all 5 stages in one day as opposed to a 2 day format like all the rest of the rounds. If any event is trying to cram to much in to one day then people are going to struggle, even the best in the world are still human at the end of the day. The way that enduro works just now is good.
  • 5 1
 I rode the Whistler Ews, I'm in alright shape, ride 2-3 times a week, mostly with my fiancé and spent half the summer paddling an ocean Kayak. But I finished the race with no time penalties. Everyone needs to harden up and just race. It was totally doable.
  • 5 1
 Its fine the way it is. Stop making something out of nothing. If you want a timed uphill go XC, if you want to chairlift up go DH. If you want a mix of both go enduro. Whistler just happened to do something different. Every venue is different. Just go ride your bike.
  • 6 2
 I'm afraid in a goal of performance enduro bike become lighter and smaller, too much xc. The kind of bike we, the non ews gifted riders, couldn't ride with. 2015 enduro bikes are bikes we could only dream of a few years ago and i think we're on the right way for the perfect do-it-easy-all bikes.
  • 4 0
 drop a stage for armatures so their transfers can be longer...a buddy of mine raced pro at whistler and made all his transfer times and he has to work a job 5days a week...no excuse for pros getting paid to not be able to do 8kft of climbing a day...a regular weekend for me is upwards of 10kft of climbing and I sit in an office chair 40 hrs a week..thats on a 31lb 6" travel bike
  • 4 0
 I think the real question is how much the climbs/transfers should effect the outcome, not if they effect the outcome. It has to mean something. If you don't make it anything more than a leisurely climb then what exactly is the point? Just shuttle everyone up or use a lift and call it multi-stage DH. It has to be difficult enough that it at least tests the endurance of the riders and keeps them on bikes in the 150mm range.
  • 2 1
 Excellently put.
  • 6 3
 The time frame and the amount of climbing for the Whistler Enduro turned it into a marathon XC race; not an Enduro that is supposed to be about the stages. It resulted in people in my category who were pedally fit but didn't have the technical riding skill to ride many sections of the stages (especially Stage 4) so they walked lots and yet they placed ahead of people who could ride everything in the stages but fell behind due to being late due to the transfers. I have also raced the Enduro in Finale and found it to be very challenging but more about the stages than worrying about making the transfers - to me, that's enduro.
  • 3 0
 DEAR PINKBIKE

I reject this question. I reject it's premise entirely. The "polling question" does not address what all the writing leading up to it is asking.

Clarification needed:
What is a "PRO XC Climb"? 3minutes? 30 minutes? 90 minutes? What are you referring to as "difficult"? Technical, rocky, rooty, steep, trail? Gravel road grind? Or was the time allotted to complete the transfer stage not enough for 4 people in the Whislter EWS who didn't make the cut?

A very finite complaint (re: Whistler EWS) and now there is a poll to address ALL enduro transfer stages in-general. I'm astonished this poll was created and went live in it's current form. I'm embarrassed for you, Pink Bike.

My opinion on transfer stages... Sounds like this is a non-issue. But thanks for kicking the hornets nest that is the Pink Bike Comments section.

Cordially,
  • 4 2
 IMO the point of enduro is that it strikes a balance between going uphill and downhill, with the balance shifted towards descending. Essentially what people have been doing since mountain biking was invented, climb up and then hammer down. If you have transfer stages that are are as tough as pro xc climbs and downhill stages that can be as tough as some world cup downhill then the balance gets lost. The transitions should be pretty damn tough at the top level, but not so tough that it takes so much out of the riders that they are compromised on the main part of the race, flying downhill at warp speed on trail bikes.
  • 4 2
 Completely agree that enduro isn't for the washed up DH WC guys and girls, BUT These climbs should be somewhat reasonable but should definitely test you. There's no way they should be "WC XC climbs" but they should provide technical long climbs. Theres supposed to be a downhill aspect to this category of racing, let's not turn it into a Marathon.
  • 3 1
 I assumed mtb enduro was based on the motorcycle enduro format, with timed special stages and untimed transfers. While those transfers may not be timed, they seem to become defacto special stages, as they are often challenging enough only the fastest riders make their start time. It seems accepted in the moto world that brutal transfers are a part of the race.
  • 3 1
 Yes, Enduro races should have climbs that affect the outcome of the race, but I think a lot of people here are missing the second half of the question... should they be as hard as pro level XC climbs? At the EWS level, yes, but at the amateur level I don't think it should be as difficult as pro XC climbs
  • 6 4
 Racers are wussies. I can say that after racing bikes for twenty years. When I started we raced the "uphill" to get to the start of the "downhill race" then we raced the dual slalom and the XC in the same weekend. Then the guys who couldn't dh quit racing the uphill cause they just wanted to be fresh or were to tired from the XC. Of course the dhers complained cause they didn't want to ride up the hill so they nixed the "uphill" for a shuttle or a lift. Then all of us XC fellas with mad skills were smoking them in the DH cause they were too fat or had been smoking too much weed so they complained more and the DH races were shortened to 2-4 min big air contests. Then the XC whiners complained that those races were too long so they invented marathon and made XC an 1-2 hour race. Those who still whined started racing 'cross. Now all the other collective whiners who couldn't hack any of the plethora of racing modalities invented enduro so they would finally have their perfect race that suits them just right. Apparently they have something to complain about now. Since when has the human race needed to literally and figuratively race to the bottom so desperately? After all folks it is called MOUNTAIN BiKING for a reason. Apparently quite a few of the guys and gals at crankworks made it through the race so maybe the rest of them should invent a new sport???
  • 4 4
 Those racers would smoke you, I, and everyone here on a bike. The EWS athletes are the best in athletes in the world on bicycles.

The difference is that you guys were racing some weak ass fire roads instead of legit DH trails.

People are different than you, grow up. There are people on this earth that the only thing that gives them pure enlightenment is going down the mountain, at the fastest speed they can, with nothing but pure focus. Who are you or I to question that? Totally a control freak thing.
  • 2 1
 Well, Dave, based on your comment(s) you might want to reconsider who the control freak is on this board.
  • 4 0
 I still race some Dave and generally finish near the front regardless of the discipline. That's not the point... Rather why is it that as soon as the race gets too physical for some or too technical for others then the race has to be changed? Why can't these babies just spend time getting better rather than trying to reinvent the rules or format to favor them? Last time I checked races had far more losers and one winner. So did you lose by going slower on the segment or missing your start time? Probably both but does it really matter?
  • 2 0
 PS I used help put on an ISDE qualifier and racers used miss their special test "enduro" segments all the time and they had a motor! Making the start time transfer a challenge sounds like a great way make the race more interesting, timely, and force riders to chose their weapons wisely. In fact, so much so I might even try an enduro race someday if it means less time spent waiting around while a bunch of people lament over their bike, tire, handlebar, chainring, grip, helmet, goggle etc etc etc selection or how that one root or rock or rut cost them the race!
  • 2 0
 I think if the transfer stages start significantly affecting race outcomes, we will see A LOT of guys using more XC oriented bikes and gear, or trail bikes at the most. How could they not? Transfer stages will always be longer because they are uphill, so there will be more advantage to be had sacrificing downhill performance for climbing XC gains. If that becomes the case, how will the industry justify selling us all the new Enduro bikes and gear?
  • 2 0
 Hold on... So if we are inclined to take the climbing out of relevance in the enduro competitions, what does that do to the enduro bikes we have bought under slogans like " climb higher, drop faster" or "do it all" type?
I pedal 16.5kg of sexy aluminium as well as my own 90kg of I chunky love and I still enjoy the climbs just as much as I enjoy the descent every weekend.
I would not like to turn enduro into a gran fondo race but I would like to see an element of endurance or uphill section in it.
  • 3 1
 Maybe it's been said, but I think the course should match the location. Whistler requires some serious riding - up and down. If you can't do both, you aren't riding Whistler. I'm sure a Cali course would be much easier. But this is not Cali...
  • 2 0
 I genuinely believe the french have got the mix about right...

From an outside viewpoint, the french rounds of EWS over the last 2 years have mixed long flowy stages, some steep tech stuff and the right mix of assisted uplift and transfers under your own steam...

Obviously the French have been running Enduro races the longest, it might be wise to follow their lead on the structure of a weekends racing?
  • 2 0
 I actually ran the first round in Chile and transfer stages times were not demanding if you had an average fitness and of course it was much easier for the pros. In my personal opinion I would have preferred to be tougher.

If there is the chance I think in some occasions transfer stages should grind down the performance of your special stages, otherwise how can you test the fitness of the rider? Is not suppose to be a complete mountain bike competition? Maybe for some that are less lucky and only can race one enduro during the year this theme can be very important and critical. But if we speak of a race calendar like the EWS. It is a good idea to have very different kind of Enduros. Probably insert though enduro races between some easy ones. Really EWS did a awesome job regarding this. There was a lot of variety in all the races they had. Even they had complete races were all transfer stages were lift shuttle.

But really all this depends of the geography of each place. I mean we cannot sentence: "You can't run an enduro in this place even if it has awesome downhills for special stages because you don't have a lift and that makes really thought to reach the top of the track" ...

I like enduro races because it is pure mountain bike. It remembers me when I used to ride with my friends when I was kid. We didn't care if what we were doing was XC, DH, walking, climbing or falling. Sometimes we had time to speak, other times we were so exhausted that we didin't have time to speak. In resume we cannot parameterize mountain bike. Sometimes you just do all-day long dh runs with lift or car shuttle. Other days you just want to climb to the top of a innaccesible mountain to find a new dh line. The fact that you can have this in a race format is magic!!! Enduro races should come as they are now. Sometimes demanding, sometimes relaxing.
  • 2 0
 Enduro racing should encompass uphills as part of the course. Granted they should not always be spec'd on the same level as Pro XC climbs. I see the goal of Enduro racing as an attempt to take the best of the XC and DH worlds and combine them into one race. In order for that to be successful, riders will have to be capable of conquering uphill and downhill sections with technical prowess not catering to a specific style of racing but in such a way that it simply reinforces the rider's overall ability and general bike handling skill. As Enduro racing is generally geared more towards DH riding one must be careful to not commit to a full DH course suited to a 7"+ travel bike, just as much as one should not commit to a full XC course with long and/or steep climbs. By splitting the difference between two categories the winner, essentially, will be the best of both worlds by proving that they have the DH skills just as much as the XC skills and are consist throughout the stages. In summary the DH and XC portions of the course should be equivalent so that one particular style of riding does not carry more "weight" than the other.
  • 2 0
 At first I thought the transfers in enduros should be timed and difficult but after have done a couple of races I realize that's not fun at the amateur level. Its way more fun to do your run and then wait up for all your pals and transfer together and talk about the last run, the next run, everything. At the pro level I can see it making sense as it makes being an amazing all around rider essential to doing well.
  • 2 0
 I'm not sure I understand the point of the climbs if they "are not affecting the outcome of the race". The difficulty shouldn't be compared to "pro xc level" but they should absolutely be of a level that the top guys are challenged by the transfer stages. "Enduro"="Endurance". If you aren't able to sustain the right balance of exertion between stages for the given course then you should choose a different discipline.
  • 2 0
 I know enduro is a new racing segment part of mountain biking, but isn't enduro supposed to emulate real life mountain biking? I think a majority of riders who like to descend as fast as possible down the steep technical trails with drops, rocks and roots are usually not looking for a difficult climb. Most of them, us (I classify myself as this type of rider), are not looking for a ball busting climb. We want to get to the top with as much energy reserved for the downhill portion. This allows us to ride bigger, slacker suspension that can improve the fun factor on the way down.
That being said, having long difficult climbs as part of the races will push manufacturers to continue the R&D of frame, suspension and component design to improve both climbing and descending ability on the same bike. If the climbs are too easy, then bike manufacturers will not need to worry about climbing efficiency as much as they do now. Is it a coincidence that the past few years all manufacturers have exploded with bikes designed for near downhill type of riding capability but can still climb really well right along with enduro racing? Which came first? Why all of a sudden almost all of the manufacturers have come out with new frame and suspension designs that are so much better than just a few years ago? Has XC or downhill tech changed just as drastically over the past few years? It doesn't seem like it to me. So even if it doesn't emulate my real world type of enduro riding I think having difficult climbs in the organized events will continue to push technology more rapidly than if we made the climbs too easy.
  • 2 0
 There was an additional problem at Whistler that I've not seen anyone talk about, it was 92F and the organisers failed to provide water at the bottom of Stage 1 as they had said they would in the pre-ride meeting. Competitors were told it would be at the bottom of Stage 2, but it was not there either! Totally understand enduro is about being self supported, but you support to a plan of what you can expect, if you're told you'll be able to get water, you carry less, so any one who had enough water to complete the climb and descent of Stage 1 had to ride through Stage 2 in excessive heat without any fluids, not only bad but down right dangerous.
  • 6 4
 It's an enduro race, not XC. If anyone's ever gotten to the start gate at the beginning of the next stage, they know how long the line is before you get to drop. Transfers should not be timed, there is no way to possibly do it fairly.
  • 6 4
 Ive entered a couple of enduros now and have realised that performance can be attributed way more to dh skill than fitness. I love technical riding dont get me wrong, but i feel stages are almost fully skill dependant and transfers just fitness, and given that transfers count for squat then enduro seems to be like diet downhill, with some pedalling thrown in between the bits that actually count! A greater mixture of pedalling sections and short punchy climbs would make for a far more allround enduro race, more representative of trail riding, and hey before the enduro buzzword came along isnt that we all did, ride trails!!!
  • 7 1
 WTF is this Enduro racing you speak of?
  • 2 0
 i read about half the comments then i got bored so forgive me if this has been said already. However...Surely if the uphill stages are made so easy as to not affect the outcome then enduro just becomes dh for people who arent competitive in wc dh? whats the point in that? personally i watch the wc dh and dont really care about enduro, but i reckon if enduro doesnt want to become a home for washed up dh riders then ALL the transfer stages should be hard enough to effect the results.otherwise why not just let everyone shuttle to the top?
  • 4 2
 I didn't read all the comments, so maybe my point was mentioned before...
Too short transfer interval destroys two important things:
- you can't talk with other people on the climb, because everybody is pushing hard and concentrating on his own timing, big social loss for the event, even it is a pro race (little chat with people on the side of the road can be valuable to).
- you are in trouble if your bike need repairs. Between every stage should be 5-10 min lollygagging time, for those who have to repair a flat, straighten or repair a crashed bike,...
If you watch WRC, there is a lot of waiting-time involved.
  • 2 1
 Social loss?
  • 2 0
 I'm not the best english speaker, so maybe I made up "new" term.
I meant, that it is bad to participate a race in which you are 5 or more hours on the bike, but have no chance to talk with other competitors. I have competed in both "fast" and slow climb races, and I like those with slower transfers more.
  • 3 1
 Don't mess with a good thing. Leave it up the the promoters to mix things up as they wish. Some easy transfers and some hard. It keeps things fresh and fully tests riders abilities. The climbs on many Enduro transfers are already as hard if not harder than most pro XC courses. In order to access the terrain the better enduros are held on. Big long climbs equal big long descents. But that being said you should be able to make the transfer without having to race it.
  • 2 0
 What the poll is missing here is that the transfer stages need not be timed to affect the overall outcome of the race.

The Whistler enduro has been known to racers from Washington to have more strict transfer times. This has made the transfer a race in itself because the gap was "too short" for many people. Those short transfers made it a race against the clock.

I don't think the transfers should have any time pressure on the riders. That doesnt mean it can't be a difficult climb. Thus transfers should affect the race but only because you're on your bike all day. That's tiring in itself. It doesn't need to be a race to the top.
  • 4 1
 Why have one set standard? Change it up race to race, year to year. Some races will favour a fitter rider, some the stronger downhiller, and the races have some personality.
  • 1 1
 spot on . more time for transfer .fix and adjust . more pedally bits in stage
  • 3 0
 I find Enduro racing way more compelling than Cross Country, not to disrespect XC racing, I am just too old to want to suffer that much
  • 4 0
 Absolutely not, if the terrain is worth the decent, climb it. That's Enduro!
  • 5 0
 where was the don't give a f#$% option?
  • 2 1
 This line of questioning will give a voice to more XCers, who probably feel they will stand a better chance if the ups are more challenging to the downhillers. One XCer earlier on already claimed anyone can go fast downhill if they have energy at the start line. But that's accommodating for their shortcomings going downhill. Saying enduro is an endurance event is half the truth IMO. As far as I can determine, Enduro is supposed to be a downhill endurance race, not a XCO, or worse, XC-M mission. Anyone that's downhill racing will know just how physically exhausting it is, even if chair lifted or shuttled. Anything longer than 6 min must be utterly soul shattering. So let's keep focus on two words: downhill endurance. then this whole debate comes into proper focus a lot quicker without having to accommodate for others who feel one group must be artificially penalized to allow the former group game.
  • 2 1
 Enduro (in the uk anyway) involves riding at least 45 KM with 1500-2000 M of climbing a day, add in 5 full on balls out DH runs. i'm flukd by the end of the weekend, EWS is about 20% more on top. If it's made harder than that the sport would die very fast.
  • 2 1
 As a PREDICTION, If they are going to make the climbs harder and as a result cut into their race times, then riders will ultimately switch to XC Bikes, which would defeat the purpose of an Enduro. These races lean more on the descent as the draw so it makes more sense to focus on that format.
  • 1 0
 it's bike racing, not badminton! sh!t goes wrong. one of those being your fitness.these are top level athletes and if they cant manage to ride to the top at a certain pace before they ride down they should start training more.
  • 1 0
 Ask the racers what they want, we want more racers competing. If I was racing I'd want the climbs to be technical single track with points added for each dab. A percentage of this score would count towards my timed run.
I also would want a limit to the vertical climbing based on vertical descent, somewhere around 50%
  • 1 0
 Key point manh missing here, Enduro is not XC in that equipment needed to compete at Enduro clothing knee pads, full face helmets and multiple stages in a day, this isnt a sprint its more like a MTb version of Rally cars. So stop comparing it to XC or DH Saying that Enduro is meant to be extreme, and the key here is onky the stages down are timed, even though event location to event locations rules differ around liasing to next stage. I would like to see it pedalled bit not XC tough or marathon tough, again taking into account that a Full Face is needed, knee oads elbow pads in some events are manadatory and clothjng has to be appropiate to handle things. We do not need to dumb down or make Enduro more accessible, thats whats killed off all other disiplines over time, its been successful becuase its been true to itself, if it needs to be tougher at some venues then add more stages or spread over 2 days, dont break whats not broken and dont let money hungry organisations and promoters ruin a great disipline,msomething many have missed or lost over the years in other disiplines becuase of said agendas. Keep it real keep it simple stupid, dont fuck it up..
  • 10 7
 Without the hype, of DH racing/riding, mountain biking would be dead. Uphill climbs are good cardio but absolutely no fun. DOWNHILL RIDING SAVED MOUNTAIN BIKING'S ASS!!!
  • 8 4
 Bikes and suspension would have never improved, if we were trying to race uphill!!!
  • 6 4
 What an incredibly ignorant post.
  • 1 0
 Didn't have time to read all the comments, but how about a timed standown before each drop eg once you summit the timer starts.
everyones recovery is different I know however at least you get to drop with something in the tank??
  • 3 2
 absolutely time the uphills. enduro should reflect trail riding and a professional level of fitness, not hike-a-bike b/c you're out of shape and only ever competed in DH.

The DH riders have a massive advantage in enduro and the climbs should absolutely be hard. Enduro should not be a place for washed up former DH racers to sand bag.

It will also force enduro bike technology to excel even more at climbing, and will benefit the consumers in the long run.

it's not and will never be cross country racing b/c most of those guys lack the technical skills and handling requisite to rip the downhills.
  • 1 0
 I just wrote up a really awesome analysis of how the roots of enduro can be best represented with different time policies - time taxes, subsidies, floors, ceilings, tax rates, nonregulated (why we can't time the whole thing) etc.. I was about to hit submit then I realized that enduro is just a way to bring money in for people who believe in earning your turns. Ya'll can go race your enduro bikes, and get competitive and hostile. I'll just take the benefits of the high end parts and earn my turns in the backcountry in solitude, without a clock.
  • 1 0
 Variety. Stages and races should expose riders to the gamut of mountain bike skills. Give an opportunity for riders with different strengths to win. Climbing is only 1 of the required skills and I'd say it should always be a factor, and sometimes even a significant part of the timed stage. I'm a Jared fan precisely because he's worked had on being a complete rider.
  • 1 0
 i have done 3 Enduro races they all had pretty much equal distance for race stages and transfer stages , each stage had a time limit for starting . every stage i raced also had sections with some climbing as well , there was no pure downhill sections . overall i think it is a sport of the future and is a enjoyable format , some take their time and enjoy the slower pace on the transfer stages and other race their own race on them , it,s a win for everyone . i know i,m looking forward to next seasons races .
  • 2 1
 Enduro should stay as the "common man's race", for the guys who dont have time to do 10h of turbo trainer a week, but also wernt born with the natural skills of Hill or Blenkinsop. As such, your standard enduro race shoud be doable by anyone who rides 1-2 a week, this is what makes enduro appealing, and can bring people into the sport.
Personally, I hate when a competition isnt representative of the sport, which is why I simply cant watch XC eliminator, which doesnt correspond to anyones riding, or the south africa WC which doesnt look like anything 99% of riders ride.
So I would argue, even at EWS level the stages and climbs should be a level above a local race, but not over 2000m of ascending or 50k loops, and giving riders a chance to catch their breath, possibly do a 5 minute repair job during the liaison, time to eat a bar etc. I personally dont like the idea of a paddock (or lunch break) either, especially in Italian races, where the return to paddock seems to add 10km of road liaisons for nothing
  • 1 2
 Hmm, so you mean makes sure enduro has nothing to do with endurance, or actually enduring something? It is a competition, if you cant't or don't want to put in the time, then it should be dumbed down?
  • 2 1
 Thats like saying xc guys should actually cross a country otherwise the name doesnt make sense...
  • 1 0
 I personally feel the stages themselves are tough enough. 3-9 minute 5 stage events, the fittest most complete rider will win . having it so that some guys are missing the cut offs and not completing races is completely ridiculous and not what enduro should be about
  • 1 0
 Whistler is the only EWS round where the athletes are expected to do two days racing in one day. It could easily be re-scheduled to take two days without affecting the overall scheduling of Crankworx, for example Fri and Saturday. That way one still gets the Saturday evening finish for the broadcasting and the atmosphere in the village (ie people drinking alcohol and then deciding to buy stuff or stay out for a meal). The EWS round should be about the racing and the spectacle not about "it is easier to get the large number of marshalls required for just one day" (which is one of the excuses that I have heard). Keep it hard, make it harder, but stage it over at least two days like every other round of the EWS and any other reputable series.
  • 1 0
 No. Why would I want to watch people riding slower than their potential during the race because they're tired from the transfer stage?

Enduro is to mountain biking what rallying is to car racing: They don't make Sebatien Loeb drive at 120mph between timed stages! He chills out at a relaxed pace on the public roads. Racing is on the timed stages, not inbetween.

STOP making enduro less fun to do and less fun to watch by imposing fast times on link stages!
  • 1 0
 Dear Pinkbike.
Great that you have made a statement to stir up a debate. But a statement without data is useless. Your conclusion about Whistler us poor. Please validate it with information from the top 10 overall. Transfer times taken a nd time allowed any mechanicals playing a part. Effort level of riders with evidence. Without this it is just someone's thought. Or are you saying that some guys had better endurance than others..... then look at the top 10 from the EWS with the easiest transitions. Remove any climatic and mechanicals input and what are the facts..... or are you just stirring it up? Smile
  • 1 0
 People could just get a bit fitter. They don't have to be the hardest climbs in the world but it should be up to the organisers of the event. If they decide that one particular transfer stage should be horribly steep and long or rather tight on time to sort the men from the boys it's up to them. I don't think they all should be like that but there's no harm in it.
  • 1 0
 1.) Wish they would re-name "enduro" racing/riding/marketing. don't know what to call it, but since "endruo" already has existed for other sports, the name creates too much in-fighting about what it should actually be. Nobody argues about what a dh race should be, or XC... (well, maybe they do, but it doesn't get much interwebz attention)

2.) POLL THE RACERS. I'd be much more interested to hear what they feel about it, since well, they are actually participating in the races, unlike so many posters here (myself included).
  • 1 0
 You are giving the wrong choose of answers. Enduro should have awesome race stages! Transfer is in between those and it should be what ever is necessary to get to those stages.
If its a tough on its a tough one and if they are lucky enough to have a transfer that lets them chill a bit well i would say they have earned it.

As hard as an XC race? an xc race is a 1 to 1.5 hour sprint. A EWS race goes on for 2 days. that's a totally different monster anyway... stupid question, really... Oh, Just saw who wrote that Article, my all time favorite RC... what else would you expect...

on more serious note is there anyway to switch off Richard Cunningham written articles to pop up on the homescreen?
  • 1 0
 Some should be! It should be left to the discretion of the event organizer. And there should be enough events that focus the other way to balance things out. It's like this in Motorcycle Enduro as well. You want a tough race, make it actually tough. If you don't have the technical terrain to make it tough in the downhills only, make it tough in the uphills too. The events should publish the climbs elevations, mileages, and profiles and let the participants strategize their race...I think this already happens.let em rip!
  • 3 3
 Get a man's rig and ride up and down. I remember when I used to have a light bike and I felt it was too heavy, now I have a heavy bike and I feel the same. It is similar with uphills, downhills, or any challenges. If it is fun and the difficulty is gradual, you get used to it and move on.
  • 2 2
 By all accounts I've consumed, Whistler EWS round was a bit much on the ups and the downs. That being said, I don't think the ups should be so relaxed that you can push your bike up. Pedal, damn it. Reasonable transfers mean the most amount of stages possible.
  • 2 1
 Transfer stages should be long but not grueling like a pro XC race. The racers should have an allotted time to get tot he top on their own power and the climbs can be sustained but not crazy
  • 2 2
 Transfer stages HAVE to mean something (and they have to exist), or else what actually differentiates Enduro from Downhill?

As for timings, I think a duration that allows the top 50% of riders to get there with 20 minutes to spare, and the bottom 50% less would be optimal (I don't know if that's what Whistler was). It's enough time to give the riders a breather, while still making people actually have to be fit. IF you get to the start gate with 1 minute to spare, your downhill run should suffer, because you're going to be fatigued.

The only other alternative I can think of that doesn't have transfer stages, is if it was like a longer downhill race, that had maybe 15% uphill, and maybe another 20-30% flat (flat enough that they'd have to pedal) all part of the timed run. Basically enough pedaling and uphill that using a DH bike would never be the best option, but the uphill is short enough that you aren't going to get the Lycra guys making up so much time on them that they win the entire thing.

Maybe another one would be to up the # of stages to like 7, and then have 2 of the 5 be "pedaly" . Make them short, because again, this isn't an XC race... but they'd still be important enough that you aren't going to be using an 8 inch travel bike, and you still need to be fit enough that being able to pedal hard for like 20 minutes will be an advantage.
  • 2 1
 it already means something: its a way to get to the next brutal downhill.
  • 1 1
 I like the way it works in the big stage races: A cutoff is calculated based on a certain percentage of the fastest time. So let's say the cutoff is 150%. If the fastest person does it in 8 minutes, everyone over 12 minutes gets penalized or even outright disqualified.

That would require some rule and setup changes, but it would tend to self-correct for tough events like Whistler: All the times would be slower, presumably in proportion to each other. But nobody can lollygag, because somebody in the field is probably a quick climber and notching the fastest time for the transfer.
  • 3 3
 As an expert rider I rode 2 stages with transfers of the EWS at Crankworx. The climbs were grueling. Especially at the altitude that whistler is at. I also rode a few sections of the EWS at Winter Park. The transfers are no joke and definately alter a riders performance on the timed sections. A timed stage should have 85-90% downhill to be considered an "enduro" stage" the transfers should have climbing but not 45min to an hour of climbing. wtf does that prove!? A race with that much climbing in one day should be in a difference class itself. Just my 2 cents.
  • 2 2
 If you are going to call it REAL enduro, you have to model it after a real enduro, which is from moto. They have to be an all around rider. Obstacles, tracks, logs, etc. Everything. Thats what enduro is SUPPOSED to be. Not Dh lite. It should be everything! Some xc , dh, slalom( bike park with banked turns). The purpose is to find the best all around rider. XC guys and dh guys should go head to head. That is the entire point of "enduro". The harder the better.
  • 2 2
 Enduro as it is now isn't much more then mini-DH races w/ some unchallenging pushing or pedaling of your bike in between. The transfer stages should have a smaller time window forcing people to also prepare their bikes for that, plus they should count towards the final result (maybe 33% up 67% down). Also, like in another format, maybe allow only 1 bike setup per race weekend, so we get the true "do-it-all" kind of bike.
  • 2 0
 Should just be here's a trail go ride it, quickest time wins... nice and simple and it means up or down your gonna have to gun it if you want the best/winning time!!
  • 3 0
 If climbs should be as hard as WC XC, then surely the descents need to be as hard as WC DH?
  • 1 1
 I think Enduro should be the perfect balance between xc and DH so no rider from either discipline has a clear advantage on the course because let's face it, right now, the DH guys are gonna beat the xc guys. Yes the climbs should be included, that way the xc guys can pull a big lead and the DH guys then fix it on the downs. Make it a more rounded sport that works to all riders. Mountain biking is about riding both down and UP a hill, shuttles aren't a natural part of the sport, just a bonus....
  • 1 0
 exactly!
  • 1 1
 Being fairly new to the sport and coming from Dirt Biking, I think that Enduro is a blend of XC and Downhill. I think that the coarses should have DH Sections where a XC bike would be misrable if not snap in half, and the climbs need to be challenging enough that a DH bike wouldn't work. So the coarse lay out is paramount. Enduro needs to push the riders, and the intervals for the climbs need to challenging if not timed as well. In my opinion no rider should be starting the DH of the Enduro without panting for oxygen from the previous interval. Otherwise we are just watching DH racing, with riders strolling from one DH to the next on big bikes.....
  • 3 3
 "to test the fitness levels of the top athletes"
im not sure if i got that quote right, but its close enough, what about me? and all the other hundreds of weekend riders who want to , probably misquote on track with kurtis keene "race with the best riders in the world on the same trails, at the same time".

if you make the transfers so hard then myself and all my trail riding friends simply wouldnt be able to do these races, which is completely against the "spirit of enduro".

PS i didnt actually do the whistler enduro, im on the wrong side of the world for that...
  • 7 3
 Another retarded, clueless article from Richard Cunningham then. Good job.
  • 3 0
 They might as well rename the current "Enduro" racing format to "DH Marathon".
  • 3 2
 Make the downhill sections hard enough for the riders to want a dh bike and the climbs hard enough to want a rigid 29 and leave it up to them to choose their weapon and we'll where this takes us
  • 4 0
 this will be the last time I click on anything that says ENDURO on PB
  • 2 0
 Convoluted Cross Country? -- THE NEW ENDURO NAME.

Lets not make it "Hard XC" or "Extreme Cross Country" Neither appeals.
  • 1 0
 Pro xc climbs with a dh caliber descent? Sounds like any given ride in epic terrain which is what enduro is all about. There are plenty of seats on the chair lift for people to talk about how much climbing sucks.
  • 1 1
 Just shut up and ride and be thank full there are these great race courses. They are all different in on way or another. Enjoy what you get and deal with what you don't like and get through it. Thats what makes you a mountain biker.
  • 8 9
 Call me crazy, but I've never understood why each transfer stage isn't part of the timed race? If each stage consisted of an up and a down it would create a discipline that could fairly test XC and DH riders alike, and would more actually represent, as we're so often told it does, the type of riding that most of us do. As has already been said, in it's current format enduro is no more than DH-lite.
  • 6 6
 You have obviously never raced a real enduro. I raced quite a few and they're basically straight xc races with a little more downhill. It's brutal. Having to ride 25-30 miles with 5k ft of climbing is no "DH-lite" bud.
  • 4 2
 The problem with climbs is that the time gaps widen significantly over a tough climb than they do an equivalent technical downhill. The more climbing, the wider spread of timing. An out-of-shape, super technical DH rider may only put a minute into a stereotypical XC rider on atimed sector, but pedaling back up, that XC rider could more than double that time difference.
  • 1 2
 He's referring to the part where you're competing... Which as you know is the descent. The timed portion is a DH lite but you have to have endurance cause of the climbs...so maybe you're both off a bit. its kinda like a XC lite/DH lite...in my opinion.
  • 1 1
 What series did you do?
  • 1 1
 My question was for downhill dave.
  • 4 5
 Maybe it's just me, but the uphill portions not going toward overall time is THE reason I don't care about enduro. It seems like a dumbed down dh race on bikes that keep creeping up in travel to the point that they are pretty much slightly shorter travel dh bikes.
  • 7 1
 Man, that is nothing like what enduro is. Putting people on trail bikes to race multiple DH trails then climb a ton in between them is nothing like that dude. EWS racing is a true test of fitness and bike skills. 25-30 miles of racing in big mountains is no joke.
  • 3 3
 still boring and stupid.
  • 4 1
 Ain't nobody care 'bout enduro.
  • 2 1
 The goal shouldn't be to make the climbs difficult, but they shouldn't be made easy either. Just whatever means are necessary to get to the top.
  • 2 0
 Enduro is lame and pedally enough as it is. Don't make it lamer and more pedally!
  • 1 0
 The transfer stages should be timed. But not to the extent of a XC race. Penalty time for goimg over the time allowed thats it.If its all timed then its a XC race!!!!
  • 1 1
 Enduro should be a 50/50 mix between climbing and descending bridging both downhill and XC. If not, it's just downhill and the sport will eventually progress to downhill. There is a circuit that already exist for that.
  • 1 1
 Climbs should not be taken out of the competition, that sport already exists- it's called DH. If climbs are beyond easy and unimportant then bikes can be specced to DH standards...
  • 4 2
 If the transfer stages are timed as well then yes, in which case it would just be an 'extreme' xc race.
  • 4 3
 XC, even extreme one, is mainly about uphills. It is more about the question of enduro becomming extreme all mountain endurance challenge. You can never descend an xc bike the way you can an enduro one.
  • 5 2
 For EWS I couldn't care less, for any race that a regular guys enters, no.
  • 2 3
 I don't think they should be a determining factor in the outcome but they should weed out the dh chairlift/shuttle guys. Make the transfer time limits short enough that the bottom say 5% miss out. Doesn't really make a difference how hard the transfers are technically.

Maybe even make a rule that penalizes the bottom 10% in transfer times or something to this effect. Not sure how this would work with races where there's a long start wait line.
  • 2 3
 This question is loaded wrong, and while we're at it, the rewards/benefit strategy of the EWS is backwards too.
No it should not be like XC climbing, and never can or will be.
The reality of the matter is that the XC pros aren't riding up big mountains: they're riding climbs of a few minutes on relatively short circuits with a total race time of 90minutes. Enduro races that involve 4+ hours of transfers and timed descents are much closer to MTB marathons in terms of duration and the need for a long-term pacing strategy.
Without the transfers & pacing strategy, this is just DH without spectators. The racers will see some great scenery, but the sport will have no raison d'etre.
As for the EWS organizers, yes they need cutoffs or they can't organize. Hell, even road racing has time cutoffs to weed out those unfit to race.
The way to improve the format is to provide an *incentive* to racers to help make the transfers not just "dead time" on race day, but part of the strategic spectacle. Offer the first 10 riders to finish a transfer a time bonus. Not huge bonuses, but enough to help their positioning in the final classification (e.g. 10 seconds for first, down to 1 second for 10th.
If Jared Graves is a man amongst boys going uphill, then he'll scoop up all the bonuses, and the other top descenders will have to up their fitness to compete.
  • 2 1
 We should have a format with the uphills timed as well! No not cross country, just plain old mountain biking up AND down challenging and fun terrain.
  • 2 1
 Was not climbing the whole idea of this endure thing? If they are out of shape sissies, maybe they should do something else.
  • 1 0
 The climbs at the sram Enduro Series are a joke and I think there is a mix in between full on xc and a joking 500 meters uphill whole race.
  • 1 2
 I would love to see the impact that tighter climbs would have on the bikes of the future! However I agree that it would go beyond the definition of the sport in which it would not be beneficial.
It is very easy to pick up a mechanical in an enduro special stage or a crash or anything that you would need a bit if recovery time from. Having "normal" link stages allows for that. If everything was tight we would have less and less competitors finish due to things that may go beyond their skills.
I picked up a flat on a special stage in the last race I did. I was able sort that out in the following link stage and continue the race without penalties...I think enduro should be about that too: adapting and tackling the unexpected, unlike Dh or xc where one single unexpected thing costs you the whole race
  • 2 0
 dont put riders climbing long uphills with all the pads, helmets & other protections, with 14kg bikes!! no fun!!
  • 4 2
 Sounds like someone needs to zip up their mansuit.
  • 2 1
 Stage climbs should be though but there should be no climbs during special stages
  • 4 6
 I would have respect for Enduro if they accumulated the up hill climbs with the downhill times. Its a joke, since you have 45min to get to the top. Its some BS. Until races integrate this into the formate its a huge joke in my eyes. If enduro groms think they are fast and strong go race XC. if your really that good you won't have to race to prove it to anyone. TWO SIX AINT DEAD.
  • 2 2
 Only one Simple thing: there are more "dopings" For climb than downhill.... Keep the transfers easy if you won't have xc and road bike races typical "$$urprises"...
  • 4 1
 Who cares?
  • 2 0
 To reach the best trails you need to be hitting climbs..
  • 3 1
 Welcome to Whistler.... where climbs are hard and the trails are gnarly!!
  • 1 0
 The only Enduro event I actually look forward to joining back then was Mega Avalanche.
  • 1 1
 Why not give them all day, and set a time limit in which they must be done the whole race? Plan badly and awards are done by the time you get done the last stage.
  • 2 0
 I see no sense in making them tougher unnecessarily.
  • 1 0
 Should this should that, put a start and finish, from point A to point B fastest wins Simple.
  • 3 1
 if you don't push your limits regularly, you'll never improve
  • 3 0
 yes. and timed.
  • 2 0
 quit complaining about how hard the climbs are.....ride your bike more.
  • 2 1
 Should be timing ALL the stages, climbing and downhill, the guy who take less timing WIN!!!
  • 2 1
 "winner Jared Graves is visibly fatigued"

Rightly so. What the f*ck is all the moaning about?
  • 1 1
 Stage cutoff time should be vigorous walk pace, pulling an angry midget hurling insults at you in a French accent. Not a moment longer.
  • 2 1
 At EWS, they should give the amateurs a little more time. But keep it the same for pros.
  • 1 0
 "Professional Enduro" yes, why not?
  • 3 3
 BLAH BLAH Blah Go Ride a 29er and make sure you are wearing enough shamy butter!!
  • 2 0
 Rule V
  • 3 2
 Doesn't matter downhill is better.
  • 3 2
 fuck Enduro downhill is the best ever!
  • 2 1
 wtf is a transfer stage. haha that enduro thing leaved me well untouched
  • 2 1
 "the spirit of enduro" Big Grin
  • 2 1
 Easier climbs and mandatory beer shotgun before the DH. That's ENDURO!
  • 1 0
 I guess some riders don't have enough enduro-ance.
  • 2 2
 Scott- You just nailed it. Make the DH's longer and rougher to wear out the racers, not some crazy climb.
  • 1 0
 EWS racers: oh god please no
  • 1 0
 Shuttles and lift chairs in Enduro, that should even the field!
  • 1 1
 trail trial is the way forward put some obstacles on the climbs for fun Smile
  • 2 0
 It would make enduro racing much more like red bull romaniacs enduro motorbike races way more fun and a much better challenge
  • 2 3
 XC Sufferfest climbs are ok. Just have generous time limits, even if it means the event is over 2days.
  • 2 0
 Most of the EWS events are spread out enough that transfer stages aren't a problem. The issue was just this specific event where scheduling was tight.
  • 1 1
 Not to worry, electric assist will be next big enduro thing.
  • 4 5
 Enduros just an excuse to jump like a pussy and get away with it.
  • 1 2
 If your paid to race bikes It should be timed up as well Dont be a bitch
  • 1 3
 Enduro... Such a bunch of self absorbed A-Holes.
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