Tr450 or M9

PB Forum :: Downhill
Tr450 or M9
Author Message
flag My-Shadow
Posted: Dec 13, 2010 at 7:08 Quote
ninjatarian wrote:
z-man wrote:
tobiebiker wrote:
over seas hand made either way a weld is a weld but the m9 is only built for dh it jumps like old people f*ck its weird awkward and no one wants to say it but everybody knows they shouldnt be doing it
a weld is absolutely not a weld, even that matirial sourced from over seas have higher impurities in them, then our frame matirials do. Over seas you have 30 guys each doing a separate weld on the production line. I am a welder and i can tell you a weld is not a f*cking weld, there are so many variability, and when welding high alloyed aluminum you need to keep ALL impurities out of the base material, and to do this you need to have a very skilled tig welder. As we speak, i have a demo 8 II and a knolly podium right beside me, the demo has craters from not using sufficient filler at the end of each weld, slightly uneven footing in some spots, and its not the most even. Now i take a look at the knolly, everything is f*cking beautiful! the puddle is beautifully wet out, no craters, no cold lad, and everything is beautifully even.
i wouldn't even compare a over seas frame to a nice north American frame made by hand.

I have argued that entire made in America point so many times but people don't seem to want to believe it. The fit and finish on my current Taiwanese frame is not so great. I miss my Kingfisher. My next bike will be made in America. That said, I vote Intense.


Ever had one?, they sure are pretty, great welds too, Ive never seen one break at the welds, they break in other places.
Ive had 2 Intense bikes, both were not built straight.
Ive had over a dozen taiwanese bikes, never had a bent one or ever broke one

Im not sure what makes you think some 6061-t6 used on an Intense is of a higher grade than on a taiwanese frame, do you understand the conventions for naming aluminium alloy stock by composition and heat treatment?, its an international standard.
flag ninjatarian
Posted: Dec 13, 2010 at 7:15 Quote
A material could be said to be the same thing, but depending on where it is made the process could have more variation, more impurities, etc. Ive seen a handful of intense bikes in my life and they all looked great. I know my American made frames were excellent. My Transition I am sure is plenty strong, but it is also heavy for what it is and like I said, the fit and finish is not as good as my kingfisher was or as good as my friends Banshee.

Also just noticed you posted a pic in another thread of a cracked weld taiwanese frame. Exactly. The. Point.

Unsecure image, only https images allowed: http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/779/crackk.jpg
flag dchill
Posted: Dec 13, 2010 at 7:41 Quote
The days of Intense frames not being straight are over. They completely revamped their manufacturing. They have scaled down production and have really stepped up their QC.
I have put together 5 different Intense bikes since September and there has been not one problem.
flag oceen246
Posted: Dec 13, 2010 at 12:17 Quote
It's all about the budget....

You can tune the intense geometry in all aspects out of the box and it is light!
The tr450 is more budget friendly as i know first hand how expensive intense are to service. You break your derailleur hanger $150!!!

I'm not into that virtual, multi pivot bs. I care more about the weight and the geometry of the bike so i would grad an m9 because it can offer adjustment wether i go race or go have fun on jumps. BUUUUT, my wallet screams for the tr450.
flag z-man
O+ FL
Posted: Dec 13, 2010 at 20:22 Quote
My-Shadow wrote:
ninjatarian wrote:
z-man wrote:

a weld is absolutely not a weld, even that matirial sourced from over seas have higher impurities in them, then our frame matirials do. Over seas you have 30 guys each doing a separate weld on the production line. I am a welder and i can tell you a weld is not a f*cking weld, there are so many variability, and when welding high alloyed aluminum you need to keep ALL impurities out of the base material, and to do this you need to have a very skilled tig welder. As we speak, i have a demo 8 II and a knolly podium right beside me, the demo has craters from not using sufficient filler at the end of each weld, slightly uneven footing in some spots, and its not the most even. Now i take a look at the knolly, everything is f*cking beautiful! the puddle is beautifully wet out, no craters, no cold lad, and everything is beautifully even.
i wouldn't even compare a over seas frame to a nice north American frame made by hand.

I have argued that entire made in America point so many times but people don't seem to want to believe it. The fit and finish on my current Taiwanese frame is not so great. I miss my Kingfisher. My next bike will be made in America. That said, I vote Intense.


Ever had one?, they sure are pretty, great welds too, Ive never seen one break at the welds, they break in other places.
Ive had 2 Intense bikes, both were not built straight.
Ive had over a dozen taiwanese bikes, never had a bent one or ever broke one

Im not sure what makes you think some 6061-t6 used on an Intense is of a higher grade than on a taiwanese frame, do you understand the conventions for naming aluminium alloy stock by composition and heat treatment?, its an international standard.
it is an international standard, but in Taiwan they just meet the certifications for the specified aluminum Here, with higher end, and more pure manufacturers, that do more then just meet the standard. On all alloys here is aloud to be a certain amount of impurity. If you cannot wrap your head around these facts, then stop arguing about it, you're wrong. Im a welder, and i am currently at BCIT, taking more welding courses, which do include a metallurgy course, i know my shit about metals, and joining them.
flag My-Shadow
Posted: Dec 31, 2010 at 4:51 Quote
Good for you, Welding/fabricating is a great profession, did it for 10 years...metallurgy?, yep been there,
Now I expect at this point, your probably just as impressed with me as I am with you...

well done Kid
flag z-man
O+ FL
Posted: Dec 31, 2010 at 10:03 Quote
Not to mention the TR450 is 4400 grams
flag Nobble
Posted: Dec 31, 2010 at 10:13 Quote
The finish on my taiwanese glory is amazing, all the welds are super clean
flag dchill
Posted: Dec 31, 2010 at 10:28 Quote
Nobble wrote:
The finish on my taiwanese glory is amazing, all the welds are super clean
Unlike the sloppy welds on my 09 Reign X, they are pretty bad.
My M9 and Tazer VP welds are amazing.
flag road-psyclist
Posted: Dec 31, 2010 at 10:46 Quote
Nothing wrong with Taiwanese built frames, a lot of bikes are made there and the welds are super strong, if any frames crack it can't be blamed on where they're made.
flag z-man
O+ FL
Posted: Dec 31, 2010 at 11:04 Quote
kinetic-uk wrote:
Nothing wrong with Taiwanese built frames, a lot of bikes are made there and the welds are super strong, if any frames crack it can't be blamed on where they're made.

Nothing wrong with them, but the quality is better here. And yes, if a frame cracks on a weld the manufacturing process is to blame. There are 3 main reasons a weld fails, Improper fit up, improper design; and the most common, welder error.
flag oceen246
Posted: Dec 31, 2010 at 11:13 Quote
z-man wrote:
kinetic-uk wrote:
Nothing wrong with Taiwanese built frames, a lot of bikes are made there and the welds are super strong, if any frames crack it can't be blamed on where they're made.

Nothing wrong with them, but the quality is better here. And yes, if a frame cracks on a weld the manufacturing process is to blame. There are 3 main reasons a weld fails, Improper fit up, improper design; and the most common, welder error.

Believe it or not, asian welders are like machines, one operator will weld hundreds of frames. The quality control here in America is better butdon't get it twisted, US made frame are more expensive than their Taiwanese cousins hence you expect everything to be "pretty". I bought us made frames not because of the welds but to support US welders and bike builders. I think that's the least you can do if you can afford it. Support your local industry!

the truth of the matter is one welder from giant will "outweld" any US welders when it comes to efficiency. They are machines I tell you.
flag Nobble
Posted: Dec 31, 2010 at 12:50 Quote
oceen246 wrote:
z-man wrote:
kinetic-uk wrote:
Nothing wrong with Taiwanese built frames, a lot of bikes are made there and the welds are super strong, if any frames crack it can't be blamed on where they're made.

Nothing wrong with them, but the quality is better here. And yes, if a frame cracks on a weld the manufacturing process is to blame. There are 3 main reasons a weld fails, Improper fit up, improper design; and the most common, welder error.

Believe it or not, asian welders are like machines, one operator will weld hundreds of frames. The quality control here in America is better butdon't get it twisted, US made frame are more expensive than their Taiwanese cousins hence you expect everything to be "pretty". I bought us made frames not because of the welds but to support US welders and bike builders. I think that's the least you can do if you can afford it. Support your local industry!

the truth of the matter is one welder from giant will "outweld" any US welders when it comes to efficiency. They are machines I tell you.
I agree with supporting local businesses, but does that really justify $3k for an M9 frame? That's getting into the range of some good completes. (an extra grand will buy you a complete Demo 8 and you could sell the parts to build it up how you want it)
flag oceen246
Posted: Dec 31, 2010 at 12:56 Quote
Yes, this is why i said if you can afford it. I don't think i will be able to next season so i'm getting something along the line of a demo. A drop out on either the 951 or the m6 is $145! really wtf? I'm at that point where i'd rather break the derailleur itself as it's cheaper to replace an x9
flag dylangreen91
Posted: Jan 1, 2011 at 9:13 Quote
Go with the M9, the only downside is the waiting list at my LBS.

 


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