Natural medicine vs allopathic medicine

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Natural medicine vs allopathic medicine
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flag IanHylands
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 9:45 Quote
This thread has been moved from the SCOTT Team Voltage article, please feel free to add to it.
flag ArmyFork
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 9:46 Quote
Wait, natural medicine and Osteopathy? Are you cracked? Are you seriously suggesting that these are valid medical practices. There is no scientific validity to Osteopathy (developed in the late 1800's by a man who decided that diseases could be treated through shaking the patient or manipulating their spine, similar to traditional chiropracty), and natural medicines (assuming they're based on the same chemicals) rarely exhibit the same effectiveness as more commonly used developed medications, if any effectiveness at all. Most natural treatments aren't even properly regulated in many countries, Canada and the US especially where they can make claims on the effectiveness of their treatments without ever having to suggest a mechanism of efficacy or undergo properly developed drug trials to prove their efficacy and search out possible harm the products may cause, let alone ever having to publish their results in accredited peer-reviewed journals.

There may be natural medicines out there that are effective in treatment of certain ailments, but that doesn't mean that they are superior or even equal to modern drug equivalents. The best way to approach any form of medicine, standard or alternative, is to do your research on both of the options carefully, and through unbiased sources on the subjects, which do exist. There are many skeptical organizations that deal with medicine every day that only care about what the science says about a treatments efficacy, and that should be where you start.

Steve Jobs believed he could be saved by alternative medicine and undertook a diet over nine months to rid his body of his cancer, and in that time what was a relatively easy to remove cancer grew and spread, and became inoperable. And although Chiropracty is not Osteopathy, neck and spinal manipulation is common in both practices and it's what caused Kevin Sorbo (actor of Hercules fame) to be afflicted with both an aneurysm and strokes after a chiropractic manipulation.
flag ArmyFork
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 9:48 Quote
Timo, I respect you immensely as a rider and as a luminary in the bike community, but I can't support these ideas. I think you need to really look carefully into what osteopathy is really about and decide then if it really will be effective for you versus a physiotherapist, and investigate what natural medicines you are using to see if they are safe to use or even effective. That said, I'm glad you're bringing attention to fitness, flexibility, general health and the role of the athlete as a brand ambassador, and the proper behaviour expected of a rider. For that I give you mad props and huge respect, all I ask is that you act a little more skeptically before you make these recommendations.

Sources:
http://journals.lww.com/neurologynow/Fulltext/2011/07050/Hidden_Hercules__Actor_Kevin_Sorbo_reveals_his.15.aspx
http://www.skepdic.com/osteopathy.html
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/chiropractic-vertebral-subluxations-science-vs-pseudoscience/
http://skeptoid.com/blog/2011/10/05/a-lesson-in-treating-illness/
http://www.macrumors.com/2011/10/20/steve-jobs-regretted-early-decision-to-delay-cancer-surgery/
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/03/dr_dean_ornish_turn_away_from_the_dark_s.php
flag IanHylands
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 9:50 Quote
Well that's one opinion, the other one is that natural medicine and osteopathy are valid medical practices and they work. Conventional medicine can only go so far, and while it's usually a good choice for treating emergency injuries it does almost nothing to maintain good health. And science can pretty much prove or disprove anything it wants, we've seen many instances of that already, and science also can't define that which it doesn't understand. I've personally used natural and alternative medicine for many things that "modern" medicine couldn't help me with, and it's been very effective.

So before you start ranting and discrediting something that you don't understand, maybe open your mind at bit and think about why millions of people use it and find it effective....
flag IanHylands
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 9:50 Quote
Oh, and also if you're going to post a bunch of links you should make sure that they're really even relevant first. You have two articles about how chiropractic manipulation may 'possibly' lead to a stroke, but as both also suggest it's never actually been proven either way. And then you have some articles about how Steve Jobs might have lived longer if he'd had his cancer treated by traditional methods instead of a 'diet' prescribed by Dean Ornish. That's hardly even a comment on natural medicine or Osteopathy, and nowhere in the article does Timo even mention Chiropractors anyway. He also doesn't talk about cancer and disease, he talks about how Physiotherapy, Osteopathy, Yoga, Massage, and Natural Medicine can help to keep you healthy and strong.
flag Marlfox87
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 9:50 Quote
Not too informed on either subject, but after a torn acl, being bounced off a few cars, and the general abuse that comes with riding bikes, I've been around my fair share of doctors, and have worked my way through a fair amount of recoveries. Like it's been already said, "[modern medicine is] usually a good choice for treating emergency injuries it does almost nothing to maintain good health." While thankful for the Doctors who helped piece me back together when I needed it, almost all of them recommended things like stretching, regular exercise, and avoiding crappy foods, in order to speed my recovery and to keep my from having to come back too soon. I've never been one really care too much about remaining fit, but even at 24 I'm starting to feel the wear, and most injuries and annoying pains I've found have come from being either too inflexible, or not being fueled properly, and am realizing the need for something like yoga, to help me develop a healthier/stronger body. And as far as Mountain Biking goes Timo isn't the only one connecting Yoga with the Sport. I've seen a decent amount of articles floating around from other physical fitness coaches who're finding yoga, massage, and physiotherapy are the answer to many of the needs Mountain Bikers have in remaining healthy. If it doesn't work out, then it'll all go the way of the Y-Frame. If it does work out, well then we can all jump on the bandwagon and pretend we were fans all along.
flag burt-reynolds
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 9:51 Quote
Couldn't have said it better myself Ian. Western medicine is not the only thing that works, and in some cases, causes more harm than good. Understand that health and healing is hard to obtain without a balance of mind, body, and spirit. To say that evidence based practice is the smartest approach is uneducated and close minded. I am a physical therapy student, and we use many different approaches that do work and are not evidence based.

1. Evidence based essentially means that insurance companies can be charged for it.
2. In order for a practice to be considered evidence based, it takes years upon years and almost an infinite amount of money to prove it. So many practices are not evidence based because the funds are unavailable for the studies.
3. Modern western medicine often promotes the use of drugs that do more harm than good.

Alternative medicines can never be counted out, as there is a place for them in healthcare. Some people cannot see past the surface, however there are many of us that do. Osteopathy? Not sure about that one as I have never seen any success with it, however the rest of these practices have been proven time and time again to be beneficial for a healthy lifestyle.
flag glueman0
O+
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 9:53 Quote
As a scientist by profession I am trained to look beyond the proven and consider alternatives. However in the case of natural medicine I happen to agree with ArmyFork. Peer reviewed data and repeatable experimentation are the cornerstones of science. I have not seem any evidence that natural medicine is any more powerful than the placebo effect and the fact that people turn to it and at the same time disregard modern medical care is ignorant at best and dangerous at worst. I tend to look at these "alternatives" as a whole and not make gross assumptions on unproven practices.
flag a-m-c
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 9:54 Quote
As a practicing physiotherapist I have to admit, I understand the perspective that ArmyFork is sharing. These are topics that we are faced with in today's "alternative medicine" movement. I believe that there are alternative medicines out there that offer much relief to thousands of people, which cannot be explained by modern day science. My personal gripe on this topic is when alternative medicine practitioners take advantage of the public's lack of knowledge regarding the mechanisms and effectiveness of each alternative medicine. I value teaching an individual what he or she can do for themselves regarding an injury, versus creating a dependency on a practitioner. Far more valuable, I would say. I'm a firm believer in a healthy mind and body and believe a person can achieve near-perfect physical health by incorporating healthy eating and exercise such as yoga and pilates to establish well rounded flexibility and strength. I struggle with some of the claims that so many practitioners make about their respective fields (physios included). It is clear that falsities are made far too often when shopping for rehab/therapy. Be self educated, challenge what you are being told, and approach alternative medicine with an open, yet critical mind. If it sounds too good to be true or doesn't seem quite right, then please listen to your OWN intuition before handing over a cheque.
flag ArmyFork
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 9:56 Quote
Ian, I respect that you find effectiveness and relief in the therapies and medicine that you and Timo have used, but it is not evidence of effectiveness, it's only anecdotal evidence of a small group. Science does not work this way, anecdotes and stories are not how we conduct science, and if I'm honest I know many, many scientists and Ph.D's who would be extremely offended at the idea that science proves whatever we want it to prove. If that was the case, we would have never accepted the germ theory of disease or the evolutionary theory (And no, we are not debating evolution here and now, I will not engage anyone on this in this post, end of story.) or Einstein's theory of relativity (truly a beautiful piece of reasoning and mathematics, absolutely gorgeous.)
flag ArmyFork
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 9:56 Quote
No. If science proved whatever it wanted to, these ideas would never have been accepted as they ran full counter to the accepted theories of the time, in some cases they dismissed the life's work of thousands of scientists. But we accepted them, because after all the anger, vehemence and the tearing apart of the fundamentals of each theory they stood on their own, they stood up because they were, and are, true. Science is an incredibly brutal environment to expose a persons work to, most scientists earn only a modest salary and have to spend every year fighting to keep their projects funded, and the competing ideas and work of other scientists means that if they falter in their honesty and falsify their results or tweak their studies, they will come under the full weight of their respective scientific communities. If their ideas cannot stand up, they face a real chance of losing funding or even their jobs as others fight to dissect their ideas to look for weaknesses to ensure that their own theories are the stronger of the two. And those people in turn are under scrutiny from other scientists, you have to look no further than the recent announcement of FTL neutrinos, and the resultant criticism that has fallen on the project and their procedures.
flag ArmyFork
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 9:56 Quote
You may say that's all good, but that these theories aren't in the same field as the more profit motivated pharmaceutical field, and you'd be right. Corruption and greed are serious problems, but that's why we have independent journals and scientists who must check the work of these corporations before a drug is released to the public for use. Another problem with the idea that corporations are motivated by greed (they are, free market baby) and are therefore untrustworthy is that it is in their best interest to make sure a treatment or drug is equally and preferably more effective than competing drugs from other companies with the fewest possible negative side effects. And yes, the Doctor that eventually selects your medication could be corrupt too but they should not be allowed to accept gifts from drug companies by law, at least that's how it should be. That still doesn't mean the drug won't work however, it may just be less effective then a competing drug. The point is that if the drug company releases a potentially weak or harmful product to the public, it could be financially devastating, and the whole drive of a corporation is to make money and nothing else, such a policy would run counter to their nature.
flag ArmyFork
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 9:56 Quote
I'd like to say to Ian that you are correct, I did not properly screen all of my sources but you will notice that there is a link pertaining specifically to Osteopathy, with links to the New England Journal of Medicine on the lack of effectiveness of Osteopathy. And yes, Chiropracty is different but I was pressed for time and that was the best I could do at that moment, but I did not pick it randomly. Osteopathy and Chiropracty both work of of the idea of spinal manipulation being a cure for specific diseases, but they have both (at least in Canada) evolved to something more akin to properly practices medicine. So I concede that I made some serious errors here, and jumped to a conclusion based on a knee-jerk reaction built up from dealing with a mountain of experience learning about bad medical practices. That said, I would not see an Osteopath unless I was recommended one by my personal doctor, and even then I would approach it with caution as the basis for their practice is not based on strong scientific grounds.
flag ArmyFork
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 9:57 Quote
And I'd like to defend my use of the Steve Jobs situation as well as the Kevin Sorbo situation. Steve Jobs intentionally pursued an alternative medicine means to avoid cancer surgery (His naturopath prescribed him a vegetarian diet) to solve his issues with cancer, and since it had the two hallmarks of medicine A: Diagnosis and B: a treatment based on that diagnosis, this is considered medicine, even if his salad wasn't in a pill case. As for Kevin Sorbo, his doctor was the one that made the suggestion that the spinal manipulations may have caused his aneurysm and stroke, and the fact is that there are other similar cases with a strong correlation to spinal manipulation, and that there is a strong understanding of the physical mechanism that caused his symptoms. It's rare, but I believe these are strong enough dangers that must be discussed.
flag ArmyFork
Posted: Oct 25, 2011 at 9:57 Quote
In short, you are right on some point Ian, and my apologies for having not done my work properly in this case, but I maintain that you should approach alternative medicine with a stronger skeptical eye. I'm not saying that all alternative medicines are useless or that they will not work, but they are also not regulated like traditional medicine which can make them effective at best, harmful at worst, or in some ways even worse, they could do nothing. At least with traditional medicine you know the risks before you start with a treatment, you don't always have that luxury with alternative medicine.

If anyone wants any more information on skepticism I'd gladly supply you with sites and information, I won't post them here as I believe that's spam and we all hate that so PM me. I'd also like to say sorry for any grammatical errors, I try to be fastidous but after having to write this twice I'll admit to being fatigued. I would once again like to apologize for my lack of rigour in my research originally, and that I didn't mean to anger or offend anyone but sometimes my bite gets away from me. I hope everyone stays strong and healthy, and most of all, Ride Hard.
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