Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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flag theminsta
Posted: Mar 29, 2017 at 6:40 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
You don't seem to understand.. the knobs really don't offer much actual adjustment. The huge majority of damping is set beyond the adjustment. Three knobs just give you a little fine tuning capability. Running a shock thats set up to only need a few clicks of damping doesn't mean it's not well damped.

And needing to run 25% sag to get a ride quality you like illustrates how poorly your damping is setup. I actually can't think of a single modern design that isn't XC that's meant to run so little sag.... the reason you're having you run do little sag is because your shock setup is f*cked and your damper can't control the suspension the way it's meant to be run.

Actually, almost all modern suspension designs are not designed around a sag point/zone. Things like anti-squat, leverage curves and geometry are the main concerns for a frame designer. Anti-squat is something you would want from 0~40% of your suspension (regardless of where the sag point is). Leverage curves of frames are actually ignored for the sake of achieving near perfect anti-squat values/curves as demonstrated by the overly-flat LR of the Yeti SB6c and the harsh 0% LR/40% sag point of the Nomad3. And geometry is a highly subjective matter: some people swear by X mm of bb drop and X degrees for head and seat angles, etc.

All in all, there are no graphs of suspension characteristics on modern frames that point towards a "sag point" unless you have a regressive-progressive leverage curve like many of the VPP bikes which produces a harsh initial, soft "sag" zone, and a progressive mid-end stroke. Many pros do not setup their suspension by sag but by feel, and that sometimes ends up with having little to no sag at all due to heavily damped compression circuits, etc.


Personal note: Although they pedal well (like all bikes in the same category), I would not ride a Nomad specifically because of the leverage curve, thus the resulting force characteristics.
flag dingus
Posted: Mar 29, 2017 at 7:34 Quote
Looking at getting a digital pressure gauge, anyone used the Topeak one?
flag Nuno2002
Posted: Mar 29, 2017 at 8:05 Quote
dingus wrote:
Looking at getting a digital pressure gauge, anyone used the Topeak one?

Got one myself. Absolutely flawless although it is a bit pricey. Anything you want to know?
flag dingus
Posted: Mar 29, 2017 at 8:11 Quote
Nothing specific, just whether you'd recommend it, which it sounds like you would.
flag Axxe
Posted: Mar 29, 2017 at 8:36 Quote
dingus wrote:
Looking at getting a digital pressure gauge, anyone used the Topeak one?

Used it and SKS. Both ok, SKS still functions.
flag Hobo1337
Posted: Mar 29, 2017 at 8:37 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
Hobo1337 wrote:
badbadleroybrown wrote:

Zero compression clicks doesn't mean zero compression damping... and 25% sag isn't enough on an popular modern suspension design.

well one extreme or the other on suspension is not a place i like to go, in my experience a shock with some additional low speed, and high speed compression performs a lot better on the trails that I ride. Ive been around the 30% sag numbers with both coil and air shocks and it doesn't work the best for me. The trails that i frequent are littered with big impacts that see me far to deep in the stroke when i go with more sag. suspension riding high is a quality i really like, and will sacrifice some small bump for that.
You don't seem to understand.. the knobs really don't offer much actual adjustment. The huge majority of damping is set beyond the adjustment. Three knobs just give you a little fine tuning capability. Running a shock thats set up to only need a few clicks of damping doesn't mean it's not well damped.

And needing to run 25% sag to get a ride quality you like illustrates how poorly your damping is setup. I actually can't think of a single modern design that isn't XC that's meant to run so little sag.... the reason you're having you run do little sag is because your shock setup is f*cked and your damper can't control the suspension the way it's meant to be run.

people nerd out to hard on these numbers and what is supposed to work where. I have times (stopwatch not strava) to compare my runs with different settings, for me it worked better to have less sag, for some it might not.
flag Nobble
Posted: Mar 29, 2017 at 8:43 Quote
theminsta wrote:
badbadleroybrown wrote:
You don't seem to understand.. the knobs really don't offer much actual adjustment. The huge majority of damping is set beyond the adjustment. Three knobs just give you a little fine tuning capability. Running a shock thats set up to only need a few clicks of damping doesn't mean it's not well damped.

And needing to run 25% sag to get a ride quality you like illustrates how poorly your damping is setup. I actually can't think of a single modern design that isn't XC that's meant to run so little sag.... the reason you're having you run do little sag is because your shock setup is f*cked and your damper can't control the suspension the way it's meant to be run.

Actually, almost all modern suspension designs are not designed around a sag point/zone. Things like anti-squat, leverage curves and geometry are the main concerns for a frame designer. Anti-squat is something you would want from 0~40% of your suspension (regardless of where the sag point is). Leverage curves of frames are actually ignored for the sake of achieving near perfect anti-squat values/curves as demonstrated by the overly-flat LR of the Yeti SB6c and the harsh 0% LR/40% sag point of the Nomad3. And geometry is a highly subjective matter: some people swear by X mm of bb drop and X degrees for head and seat angles, etc.

All in all, there are no graphs of suspension characteristics on modern frames that point towards a "sag point" unless you have a regressive-progressive leverage curve like many of the VPP bikes which produces a harsh initial, soft "sag" zone, and a progressive mid-end stroke. Many pros do not setup their suspension by sag but by feel, and that sometimes ends up with having little to no sag at all due to heavily damped compression circuits, etc.


Personal note: Although they pedal well (like all bikes in the same category), I would not ride a Nomad specifically because of the leverage curve, thus the resulting force characteristics.
you do realize that Anti squat is effected by chainring size, cassette gear, and sag point right?

Most linkage designs are optimized to give ideal anti squat characteristics with a certain sag amount and chainring size. Because anti squat is not constant they have to.

Look at the transition scout anti squat curve on the linkage designs blog. The anti squat reaches 100% at 35% of the travel. This means that when the bike is set up with the manufacturers suggested sag amount the bike will not squat or rise under pedalling forces.
flag Tsoxbhk
Posted: Mar 29, 2017 at 8:51 Quote
Axxe wrote:
dingus wrote:
Looking at getting a digital pressure gauge, anyone used the Topeak one?

Used it and SKS. Both ok, SKS still functions.

I use sks one. Works fine.
flag theminsta
Posted: Mar 29, 2017 at 9:11 Quote
Nobble wrote:
theminsta wrote:
badbadleroybrown wrote:
You don't seem to understand.. the knobs really don't offer much actual adjustment. The huge majority of damping is set beyond the adjustment. Three knobs just give you a little fine tuning capability. Running a shock thats set up to only need a few clicks of damping doesn't mean it's not well damped.

And needing to run 25% sag to get a ride quality you like illustrates how poorly your damping is setup. I actually can't think of a single modern design that isn't XC that's meant to run so little sag.... the reason you're having you run do little sag is because your shock setup is f*cked and your damper can't control the suspension the way it's meant to be run.

Actually, almost all modern suspension designs are not designed around a sag point/zone. Things like anti-squat, leverage curves and geometry are the main concerns for a frame designer. Anti-squat is something you would want from 0~40% of your suspension (regardless of where the sag point is). Leverage curves of frames are actually ignored for the sake of achieving near perfect anti-squat values/curves as demonstrated by the overly-flat LR of the Yeti SB6c and the harsh 0% LR/40% sag point of the Nomad3. And geometry is a highly subjective matter: some people swear by X mm of bb drop and X degrees for head and seat angles, etc.

All in all, there are no graphs of suspension characteristics on modern frames that point towards a "sag point" unless you have a regressive-progressive leverage curve like many of the VPP bikes which produces a harsh initial, soft "sag" zone, and a progressive mid-end stroke. Many pros do not setup their suspension by sag but by feel, and that sometimes ends up with having little to no sag at all due to heavily damped compression circuits, etc.


Personal note: Although they pedal well (like all bikes in the same category), I would not ride a Nomad specifically because of the leverage curve, thus the resulting force characteristics.
you do realize that Anti squat is effected by chainring size, cassette gear, and sag point right?

Most linkage designs are optimized to give ideal anti squat characteristics with a certain sag amount and chainring size. Because anti squat is not constant they have to.

Look at the transition scout anti squat curve on the linkage designs blog. The anti squat reaches 100% at 35% of the travel. This means that when the bike is set up with the manufacturers suggested sag amount the bike will not squat or rise under pedalling forces.

I should clarify:

My argument is not that sag points are useless and don't exist, which I sort of said, but that the notion that "30~33% sag point is a proper setup" is incorrect. You can have a "correct" and proper suspension setup with 25% due to things like personal preference in suspension while still having acceptable suspension characteristics and graphical/theoretical values. The theoretical side of this argument is further bolstered by the fact that the size of chainrings and cogs at the rear hub also change many frames' suspension characteristics, no matter how small, thus changing the sag point from the conventionally/commonly understood percentage of 30%.
flag Nobble
Posted: Mar 29, 2017 at 9:17 Quote
theminsta wrote:
Nobble wrote:
theminsta wrote:


Actually, almost all modern suspension designs are not designed around a sag point/zone. Things like anti-squat, leverage curves and geometry are the main concerns for a frame designer. Anti-squat is something you would want from 0~40% of your suspension (regardless of where the sag point is). Leverage curves of frames are actually ignored for the sake of achieving near perfect anti-squat values/curves as demonstrated by the overly-flat LR of the Yeti SB6c and the harsh 0% LR/40% sag point of the Nomad3. And geometry is a highly subjective matter: some people swear by X mm of bb drop and X degrees for head and seat angles, etc.

All in all, there are no graphs of suspension characteristics on modern frames that point towards a "sag point" unless you have a regressive-progressive leverage curve like many of the VPP bikes which produces a harsh initial, soft "sag" zone, and a progressive mid-end stroke. Many pros do not setup their suspension by sag but by feel, and that sometimes ends up with having little to no sag at all due to heavily damped compression circuits, etc.


Personal note: Although they pedal well (like all bikes in the same category), I would not ride a Nomad specifically because of the leverage curve, thus the resulting force characteristics.
you do realize that Anti squat is effected by chainring size, cassette gear, and sag point right?

Most linkage designs are optimized to give ideal anti squat characteristics with a certain sag amount and chainring size. Because anti squat is not constant they have to.

Look at the transition scout anti squat curve on the linkage designs blog. The anti squat reaches 100% at 35% of the travel. This means that when the bike is set up with the manufacturers suggested sag amount the bike will not squat or rise under pedalling forces.

Yes, I've been a proponent of the dual chainring drivetrain setup as it drastically changes how your suspension works.

My point was that anti-squat is 100% +/- 15% for the 0~40% of most modern enduro bike's travel and that it isn't a good argument for a "sag point". Additionally, since you bring it up, because people can run various size chainrings, the concept of a sag point (typically noted to be 30~33%) is outdated and almost useless. In fact, if you run a 36t chain ring on a Transition Scout, you'll achieve 100% anti-squat at roughly 25%. Again, throwing out the concept of "30~33% sag point is a properly setup suspension".

I would be curious as to how many professional riders have no idea what sag they're running or run varying sag percentages depending on the day/terrain/feel/temperature/etc, as people who we can all agree they know what they're doing on a bike: going faster than anyone on any given terrain.
Sure, your kinematics change between riders because of rings and stuff but it's still going to be engineered for an "average" setup. I'd be willing to bet the majority of scout owners are running 32t chainrings.

I'm not saying "30~33% sag is a properly setup suspension" I'm saying the manufacturer designs it around a sag amount. That's why the sticker on the back of scouts and patrols says 35% sag on it.
flag theminsta
Posted: Mar 29, 2017 at 9:22 Quote
I agree. I very often derp. My argument wasn't supposed to be about sag points, but the notion of a static sag point of 30/33% regardless of other factors. Edited my post to be more concise
flag Axxe
Posted: Mar 29, 2017 at 10:12 Quote
As I age, it sags more and more.
flag Arnoodles
Posted: Mar 29, 2017 at 10:26 Quote
Axxe wrote:
As I age, it sags more and more.
Your man boobs?
flag Axxe
Posted: Mar 29, 2017 at 10:43 Quote
Arnoodles wrote:
Axxe wrote:
As I age, it sags more and more.
Your man boobs?

My brass balls.
flag PHeller
O+
Posted: Mar 29, 2017 at 12:07 Quote
Any word on the streets about Race Face selling the Turbine R rim by itself? I want more Asym alloy options.

 
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