Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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flag sherbet
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 10:16 Quote
Rocking a suspended and droppered kona libre here. It's a stupidly fun bike. Very good spec for the price; about a grand cheaper for the grx libre over the grx stigmata, with better wheels. Frame isnt very compliant, but the tires soak it up good.

Coworker has a topstone carbon and raves about it. Magic carpet ride.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 10:22 Quote
swan3609 wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
You could run a coil. Some factors that would help:

Primary, which ought to be enough:
• Firm damper tune
• Spring rate that results in less sag, with no preload

Secondary:
• Progressive spring and/or longer bottom-out bumper
• Hydraulic bottom-out damper

Or position sensitive damping too correct? I know that's what I played with heavily on my old 5th elements.

And a while back we discussed that the progressive springs were really not that progressive compared to a air spring. How much ramp up are we looking for?

I'd wonder about a progressive spring and a longer bumper combined and if that would allow me to run a more standard spring rate that would still stay somewhat supple in the beginning stroke.

A hydraulic bottom-out damper is a type of position-sensitive damper. So yes, anything along those lines would be great.

A coil without preload will always be supple off the top; a little more or less rate will have minimal effect. What you were feeling with the Monarch was the rate rocketing up in a matter of millimeters as you transitioned from the short negative spring to the positive spring.

Difficult to say how much ramp you want. A little firmer spring with less ramp is pretty similar to a little softer spring with more ramp. Ramp is most valuable when your trails are mostly fast and rough, but occasionally have large, high-duration hits (g-outs, drops); if your trails are a consistent mix of terrain, a higher rate with less ramp provides a more consistent experience. The MRP coil could offer you maybe 20% progressivity, but that's not equivalent to 20% linkage progressivity, as the latter would act on both the spring and damper, whereas this is just the spring. Adding a bumper will add yet more spring rate - and a little damping, since the elastomer has some material damping properties, but not a lot.
flag newbermuda
O+
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 11:24 Quote
sherbet wrote:
Rocking a suspended and droppered kona libre here. It's a stupidly fun bike. Very good spec for the price; about a grand cheaper for the grx libre over the grx stigmata, with better wheels. Frame isnt very compliant, but the tires soak it up good.

Coworker has a topstone carbon and raves about it. Magic carpet ride.

Also interested in that new full sus Niner MCR
flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 11:28 Quote
sosburn wrote:
sherbet wrote:
Rocking a suspended and droppered kona libre here. It's a stupidly fun bike. Very good spec for the price; about a grand cheaper for the grx libre over the grx stigmata, with better wheels. Frame isnt very compliant, but the tires soak it up good.

Coworker has a topstone carbon and raves about it. Magic carpet ride.

Also interested in that new full sus Niner MCR

You do realize these are just XC race bikes with drop bars, right? Wink
flag sherbet
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 11:38 Quote
John Tomac is my dude.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 11:38 Quote
sherbet wrote:
John Tomac is my dude.

John Tomac is the dude.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 12:16 Quote
That's what I'm saying: we've come full-circle.
flag newbermuda
O+
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 13:14 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
sosburn wrote:
sherbet wrote:
Rocking a suspended and droppered kona libre here. It's a stupidly fun bike. Very good spec for the price; about a grand cheaper for the grx libre over the grx stigmata, with better wheels. Frame isnt very compliant, but the tires soak it up good.

Coworker has a topstone carbon and raves about it. Magic carpet ride.

Also interested in that new full sus Niner MCR

You do realize these are just XC race bikes with drop bars, right? Wink

yeah but i need some road capability my man!!!
flag tom666
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 13:15 Quote
That Raleigh is a cool bike for sure. Still looks fast now, stood the test of time. I'd definitely only use it in a gravel bike capacity though - I can't imagine trying to ride technical singletrack on that thing.
flag Wale
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 13:15 Quote
sherbet wrote:
Rocking a suspended and droppered kona libre here. It's a stupidly fun bike. Very good spec for the price; about a grand cheaper for the grx libre over the grx stigmata, with better wheels. Frame isnt very compliant, but the tires soak it up good.

Coworker has a topstone carbon and raves about it. Magic carpet ride.

How often do you actually use the dropper and what do you mostly ride with that bike?
flag sherbet
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 13:39 Quote
A fair bit on singletrack. Might be a byproduct of having it rather than needing it.
flag Wale
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 13:51 Quote
Every now and then I run into situation where I could really use it but can't really justify getting one because I wouldn't really need one on my regular rides.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 15:50 Quote
sosburn wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
You do realize these are just XC race bikes with drop bars, right? Wink

yeah but i need some road capability my man!!!

I get what you're saying, but if we compare a modern monstercross bike to XC bikes from the early '90s:

• Geometry: Similar, with head angles around 70° - 71°, seat-tube angles around 73° - 74°, and similar effective top-tube lengths.
• Travel: Similar, from fully rigid to around 2".
• Rims: Similar, with internal widths from around 16 mm - 22 mm (and getting wider on modern bikes).
• Tires: Similar again, around 45 mm - 55 mm (old-school tires were comically undersized, even if they claimed to be 2.1").

Even modern XC race hardtails are using similar numbers. Size down one size and mount drop bars and super slick tires and it really isn't far off a monstercrosser - which, in turn, isn't far off a gravel bike with slightly wider than average tires.

In all seriousness, put a Fox AX fork on a Giant XTC Advanced hardtail, mount some 50 mm Schwalbe Furious Fred Liteskins, rig up a drop bar and it's essentially indistinguishable from a burly gravel or average monstercross set-up.

I'll go a step farther and say I don't like drop bars on trails or rough gravel roads, so I think a flat bar is a sensible modification to some gravel - and all monstercross - bikes. And voilà: we've come full circle, reinventing the XC hardtail.

If a person just wants a road bike with a touch of versatility for hardpacked dirt roads, then that's a different matter. A road bike with drop bars and 32 mm Continental GP5s - maybe even something with micro-tread on the front wheel - is just what a modern road bike should be.
flag swan3609
O+
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 20:30 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
swan3609 wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
You could run a coil. Some factors that would help:

Primary, which ought to be enough:
• Firm damper tune
• Spring rate that results in less sag, with no preload

Secondary:
• Progressive spring and/or longer bottom-out bumper
• Hydraulic bottom-out damper

Or position sensitive damping too correct? I know that's what I played with heavily on my old 5th elements.

And a while back we discussed that the progressive springs were really not that progressive compared to a air spring. How much ramp up are we looking for?

I'd wonder about a progressive spring and a longer bumper combined and if that would allow me to run a more standard spring rate that would still stay somewhat supple in the beginning stroke.

A hydraulic bottom-out damper is a type of position-sensitive damper. So yes, anything along those lines would be great.

A coil without preload will always be supple off the top; a little more or less rate will have minimal effect. What you were feeling with the Monarch was the rate rocketing up in a matter of millimeters as you transitioned from the short negative spring to the positive spring.

Difficult to say how much ramp you want. A little firmer spring with less ramp is pretty similar to a little softer spring with more ramp. Ramp is most valuable when your trails are mostly fast and rough, but occasionally have large, high-duration hits (g-outs, drops); if your trails are a consistent mix of terrain, a higher rate with less ramp provides a more consistent experience. The MRP coil could offer you maybe 20% progressivity, but that's not equivalent to 20% linkage progressivity, as the latter would act on both the spring and damper, whereas this is just the spring. Adding a bumper will add yet more spring rate - and a little damping, since the elastomer has some material damping properties, but not a lot.

Super helpful. I really appreciate your in site. I will start looking at what options to pursue.. I'll definitely be doing a progressive spring at a minimum and probably a bumper as well.

My bikes see a pretty diverse mix of terrain with everything from smooth XC style rides, to bike park laps with substantial chunder and rough, to basically slope style jumps and a few 15+ foot drops.

While I know that setting have to adjust for all that different type of riding, I really am wanting that performance for the rough chunder and be able to handle those bigger drops and big events and stay composed.

 


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