Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 20:43 Quote
swan3609 wrote:
Super helpful. I really appreciate your in site. I will start looking at what options to pursue.. I'll definitely be doing a progressive spring at a minimum and probably a bumper as well.

My bikes see a pretty diverse mix of terrain with everything from smooth XC style rides, to bike park laps with substantial chunder and rough, to basically slope style jumps and a few 15+ foot drops.

While I know that setting have to adjust for all that different type of riding, I really am wanting that performance for the rough chunder and be able to handle those bigger drops and big events and stay composed.

To help decide whether to prioritize high rate vs. modest rate with ramp, here are a couple of archetypal cases:


#1. Rider who needs plenty of ramp-up:
"I spend most of my time in the middle of the travel, smashing through rocks, roots, and whatever's on the trail. I mostly hold on and let 'er buck, monster-trucking through the rough. Occasionally, though, I hit some big head-bobber drops and really hear that metal-on-metal bottom-out. Klang!"

This rider needs the suspension to track the terrain and settle into the travel with a bit more sag, but needs plenty of bottom-out protection for those occasional big hits.


#2. Rider who needs higher overall rate:
"I get deep in the travel all the time on berms and as I'm constantly jumping, pumping, hopping, and working the terrain. I like a "poppy" and responsive bike, not a marshmallow."

This rider needs a lot of support in the first, say, two-thirds of the travel to keep the bike from wallowing. For Rider #2 to be able to access full travel, the spring can't ramp up too much from the already firm rate or the rider will collapse before the bike bottoms out.
flag ajax-ripper
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 20:57 Quote
I am rider 2, I think a lot of people are but tend to think that they prefer ramp because volume spacers are the talk of the Town lately.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 21:07 Quote
ajax-ripper wrote:
I am rider 2, I think a lot of people are but tend to think that they prefer ramp because volume spacers are the talk of the Town lately.

Very true. Most people seem to think spacers fix everything:

Fork dives? Spacers!
Suspension is harsh? Spacers!
Suspension bottoms out? Spacers!
Can't access full travel? Spacers!
Suspension bobs when climbing? Spacers!
BB creaks? Spacers!

Almost every rider I know has benefited from removing all spacers from their forks. The classic symptom is the fork dives, yet they still can't get full travel ... so they remove pressure and add spacers! That's the exact opposite of what's needed!

Most of us average humans want to avoid dive / wallow, but our puny arms can't handle world-class hits. We need the support of a firm spring to keep the bike up in its travel, but then we should reduce ramp-up so we can access full travel before our don't-go-to-the-gym-every-day bodies give out.
flag swan3609
O+
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 21:18 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
swan3609 wrote:
*snip*.

To help decide whether to prioritize high rate vs. modest rate with ramp, here are a couple of archetypal cases:


#1. Rider who needs plenty of ramp-up:
"I spend most of my time in the middle of the travel, smashing through rocks, roots, and whatever's on the trail. I mostly hold on and let 'er buck, monster-trucking through the rough. Occasionally, though, I hit some big head-bobber drops and really hear that metal-on-metal bottom-out. Klang!"

This rider needs the suspension to track the terrain and settle into the travel with a bit more sag, but needs plenty of bottom-out protection for those occasional big hits.


#2. Rider who needs higher overall rate:
"I get deep in the travel all the time on berms and as I'm constantly jumping, pumping, hopping, and working the terrain. I like a "poppy" and responsive bike, not a marshmallow."

This rider needs a lot of support in the first, say, two-thirds of the travel to keep the bike from wallowing. For Rider #2 to be able to access full travel, the spring can't ramp up too much from the already firm rate or the rider will collapse before the bike bottoms out.

It's really hard to distinctively put myself in either of those. I definitely am jumping and pumping much of the trail and unweighting the bike to keep it light when the trail gets rougher. But definitely have times were the fast line is a big huck, or you are not able to really unweight the bike through the rough section and monster trucking is the answer. I am definitely not afraid to monster truck if needed. I'd say that I am a plow rider when necessary, But generally look for a playful setup that still has that off the top suppleness.


Which is probably very difficult/impossible to achieve both..
flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 21:24 Quote
swan3609 wrote:
It's really hard to distinctively put myself in either of those. I definitely am jumping and pumping much of the trail and unweighting the bike to keep it light when the trail gets rougher. But definitely have times were the fast line is a big huck, or you are not able to really unweight the bike through the rough section and monster trucking is the answer. I am definitely not afraid to monster truck if needed. I'd say that I am a plow rider when necessary, But generally look for a playful setup that still has that off the top suppleness.


Which is probably very difficult/impossible to achieve both..

Everyone wants it all; that's natural. It's more instructive to think in terms of ranking what you would give up, if you had to.

Would you, for example:

• Accept rock gardens being less planted and more bouncy?
• Allow some nasty bottom-outs?
• Really muscle the bike around to make it hop and pop, which also means it will sink deep into high-g berms?
• Deal with a super low BB, or do pedal strikes really kill the flow?
etc.

Think about your deal-breakers and your I-can-live-with-its.
flag swan3609
O+
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 21:49 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
swan3609 wrote:
It's really hard to distinctively put myself in either of those. I definitely am jumping and pumping much of the trail and unweighting the bike to keep it light when the trail gets rougher. But definitely have times were the fast line is a big huck, or you are not able to really unweight the bike through the rough section and monster trucking is the answer. I am definitely not afraid to monster truck if needed. I'd say that I am a plow rider when necessary, But generally look for a playful setup that still has that off the top suppleness.


Which is probably very difficult/impossible to achieve both..

Everyone wants it all; that's natural. It's more instructive to think in terms of ranking what you would give up, if you had to.

Would you, for example:

• Accept rock gardens being less planted and more bouncy?
• Allow some nasty bottom-outs?
• Really muscle the bike around to make it hop and pop, which also means it will sink deep into high-g berms?
• Deal with a super low BB, or do pedal strikes really kill the flow?
etc.

Think about your deal-breakers and your I-can-live-with-its.

Depends on how hard the nasty bottom outs are on the rest of the equipment.. I am probably strong enough to handle the nasty bottom out physically, but don't want to be blowing up more wheels than I already do.


I guess this is bike dependent too. The Ebike is already so inherently stable since it has the weight in the downtube and bottom bracket. So I guess that it makes more sense to try and keep it more playful. And since I am not racing it (yet) , it makes more sense to keep it playful.


The Enduro is definitely a bike where I prioritize how fast it is and want it stable in the rough and able to stay composed when it gets sent hard and bottomed out. Basically I want it to be a 160mm downhill bike for when I don't have my DH bike.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 21:55 Quote
Maybe the e-bike should have a firm spring with less ramp and the Enduro can have a softer spring with more ramp and damping.
flag swan3609
O+
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 22:05 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
Maybe the e-bike should have a firm spring with less ramp and the Enduro can have a softer spring with more ramp and damping.

What made sense to me in my head.. Funny that the bike I ride like a DH bike will end up with the air shock and the ebike will be the one that I try to run the coil shock on.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 22:12 Quote
swan3609 wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
Maybe the e-bike should have a firm spring with less ramp and the Enduro can have a softer spring with more ramp and damping.

What made sense to me in my head.. Funny that the bike I ride like a DH bike will end up with the air shock and the ebike will be the one that I try to run the coil shock on.

Doesn't have to be that way, but I think this sounds reasonable. The Topaz has a great negative spring, giving it a smooth spring curve.

I haven't simulated the kinematics on the Kenevo models; it's possible they have a more progressive leverage curve, like the new Enduro, which would play nicely with a coil shock.
flag swan3609
O+
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 22:21 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
swan3609 wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
Maybe the e-bike should have a firm spring with less ramp and the Enduro can have a softer spring with more ramp and damping.

What made sense to me in my head.. Funny that the bike I ride like a DH bike will end up with the air shock and the ebike will be the one that I try to run the coil shock on.

Doesn't have to be that way, but I think this sounds reasonable. The Topaz has a great negative spring, giving it a smooth spring curve.

I haven't simulated the kinematics on the Kenevo models; it's possible they have a more progressive leverage curve, like the new Enduro, which would play nicely with a coil shock.


I should just EP an air and coil setup and spend a few weekends on a few familiar trails and tune both and see what I like best and sell the other. But a coil setup with a higher spring rate sounds like what I am looking for on the Levo.


The new Kenevo is super badass and I thought about it, but I stepped back and realized that the only terrain that would justify it around me is at a resort where I already ride the enduro and DH bike. I don't have a trail bike right now aside from a hardtail, and so the Levo is filling in that 140-150mm bike slot.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 22:27 Quote
Right, you mentioned Levo, not Kenevo. Makes sense. Going to be a fun pair of bikes.

The difference between air and coil isn't as big as people make it out to be; the difference in damper properties is often more significant - and getting the right damper tune is always critical.
flag swan3609
O+
Posted: Oct 27, 2019 at 23:06 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
Right, you mentioned Levo, not Kenevo. Makes sense. Going to be a fun pair of bikes.

The difference between air and coil isn't as big as people make it out to be; the difference in damper properties is often more significant - and getting the right damper tune is always critical.

Sould be a proper setup.. I appreciate you going though it. For so many years I was just a kid who didn't care about setup, but now that I am a bit older, I am trying to focus on setup more and have it help with my riding.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 28, 2019 at 6:40 Quote
swan3609 wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
Right, you mentioned Levo, not Kenevo. Makes sense. Going to be a fun pair of bikes.

The difference between air and coil isn't as big as people make it out to be; the difference in damper properties is often more significant - and getting the right damper tune is always critical.

Sould be a proper setup.. I appreciate you going though it. For so many years I was just a kid who didn't care about setup, but now that I am a bit older, I am trying to focus on setup more and have it help with my riding.

I think we all go through an arc of initially not knowing or caring about suspension set-up, then obsessing over details without understanding - maybe viewing set-up as more art than science - and, finally, dialing back the concern because we realize it's only a detail in a complex picture of bike and rider performance.

Keep us posted on the set-up adventure; interested to hear how it goes!
flag secondtimeuser
O+
Posted: Oct 28, 2019 at 7:12 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
I think we all go through an arc of initially not knowing or caring about suspension set-up, then obsessing over details without understanding - maybe viewing set-up as more art than science - and, finally, dialing back the concern because we realize it's only a detail in a complex picture of bike and rider performance.

Keep us posted on the set-up adventure; interested to hear how it goes!

My time in Phase 2 of your (very accurate for me at least!) arc was very short when I realised that by the time I'd set up my suspension I'd lost most of the days riding paying attention to the bike rather than to the ride itself, and by the time I was next riding the same spot the conditions had changed again anyway. I now basically have a single setup and maybe do air pressure up a bit the one time a year I go to Black Mountain where I ride things substantially steeper and faster than anything else I hit.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Oct 28, 2019 at 7:16 Quote
Most suspension products on most bikes are really well set-up for most riders. A lot of work goes into establishing the base tune on the non-adjustable elements of your suspension! Adjustability often results in users making things worse.

 


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