Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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Posted: Nov 8, 2019 at 15:53 Quote
PHeller wrote:
On the topic of Kashima: he says that in order for it to work, it needs to slide against another Kashima part.

He says a molybdenum disulfide sheet should slide against another molybdenum disulfide sheet, which is not exactly what's happening in the case of Kashima - even if it were Kashima on Kashima.

To review the statements in the video, which I have not verified:

• Kashima is not a uniform coating of molybdenum disulfide sheet over the aluminum.
• Molybdenum disulfide does not fit in the pore spaces of the aluminum being treated.
• Kashima claims to work by forming molybdenum disulfide in-situ inside the pore spaces by first filling the spaces with molecules that do fit, then performing reactions that cause the formation of molybdenum disulfide in these pore spaces.
• Even if this does occur, there are two concerns:
-- The surface of the molybdenum disulfide sheets may not be oriented optimally.
-- The exposed molybdenum disulfide, if present, is in a lattice of aluminum and dissimilar hardnesses and wear rates will affect performance.
• The presense of lubricating oil / grease films completely change and, likely, invalidate all claims.

Posted: Nov 8, 2019 at 16:08 Quote
Fox isn't, nor has been, some small shop thinking up wild ways of producing slippery surfaces. The fact that they went to patent it seems to indicate that they thought it was worth spending time on. If it was just a fancy way of adding gold anodizing, why patent it? Especially since other manufacturers could easily get a color that was close (see Marz Espresso Coating).

Posted: Nov 8, 2019 at 16:14 Quote
Your logic is reasonable, but it's not evidence of anything.

Maybe the idea is flawed and the it's a patent of a bad idea - wouldn't be the first time that's happened. Maybe the idea is sound, but the execution isn't there yet. Maybe it works perfectly.

Only way to know is to test, which we do, in an imperfect way, by riding the products. Have you noticed Fox products to have appreciably less friction?

Posted: Nov 8, 2019 at 16:17 Quote
PHeller wrote:
Fox isn't, nor has been, some small shop thinking up wild ways of producing slippery surfaces. The fact that they went to patent it seems to indicate that they thought it was worth spending time on. If it was just a fancy way of adding gold anodizing, why patent it? Especially since other manufacturers could easily get a color that was close (see Marz Espresso Coating).

Why do people still buy Enve rims when they're almost certainly the worst option on the market? Hype my man, hype. That's what Kashima has going for it, and people buy it up.

Posted: Nov 8, 2019 at 16:18 Quote
PHeller wrote:
Fox isn't, nor has been, some small shop thinking up wild ways of producing slippery surfaces. The fact that they went to patent it seems to indicate that they thought it was worth spending time on. If it was just a fancy way of adding gold anodizing, why patent it? Especially since other manufacturers could easily get a color that was close (see Marz Espresso Coating).

Honestly if I were a manufacturer and figuered out a way to get a certain shade of gold on stanchions I'd trademark the hell out f it. Just for Marketing purposes alone. If it ends up working better then great. If It doesn't at least that color on bike suspension stancions is protected.

Posted: Nov 8, 2019 at 16:23 Quote
sherbet wrote:
PHeller wrote:
Fox isn't, nor has been, some small shop thinking up wild ways of producing slippery surfaces. The fact that they went to patent it seems to indicate that they thought it was worth spending time on. If it was just a fancy way of adding gold anodizing, why patent it? Especially since other manufacturers could easily get a color that was close (see Marz Espresso Coating).

Why do people still buy Enve rims when they're almost certainly the worst option on the market? Hype my man, hype. That's what Kashima has going for it, and people buy it up.

I liked it when they were called Edge Composites.

Posted: Nov 8, 2019 at 16:26 Quote
seraph wrote:
sherbet wrote:
PHeller wrote:
Fox isn't, nor has been, some small shop thinking up wild ways of producing slippery surfaces. The fact that they went to patent it seems to indicate that they thought it was worth spending time on. If it was just a fancy way of adding gold anodizing, why patent it? Especially since other manufacturers could easily get a color that was close (see Marz Espresso Coating).

Why do people still buy Enve rims when they're almost certainly the worst option on the market? Hype my man, hype. That's what Kashima has going for it, and people buy it up.

I liked it when they were called Edge Composites.

as in, “will crack on any square Edge” components.

Posted: Nov 8, 2019 at 16:56 Quote
sosburn wrote:
as in, “will crack on any square Edge” components.
Nice lol

As far as Kashima goes... I can't speak to the material side of it but it certainly seems to work. I'm pretty anti hype and more likely to not buy something because it's widely hyped than to buy it because it is and I resisted Kashima for a very long time but after riding the same bike with a non kashima fork and with kashima and the difference was pretty noticeable. I'm sure it was partly just being nicer damper but it was noticeably smoother... certainly not a game changer but a nice addition imo.

Posted: Nov 8, 2019 at 17:24 Quote
When you buy a higher end fox fork almost everything increase in quality. The stanchions are made of a better grade aluminum and have thinner walls while maintaining a similar stiffness, the tolerances between the stanchion tubes and the bushings are usually more consistent and easily in less striction, most importantly the internal seals are usually lubricated properly from the factory and aren't sticktion city.

Posted: Nov 8, 2019 at 17:26 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
As far as Kashima goes... I can't speak to the material side of it but it certainly seems to work. I'm pretty anti hype and more likely to not buy something because it's widely hyped than to buy it because it is and I resisted Kashima for a very long time but after riding the same bike with a non kashima fork and with kashima and the difference was pretty noticeable. I'm sure it was partly just being nicer damper but it was noticeably smoother... certainly not a game changer but a nice addition imo.

That's similar to my own experiences. The Rhythm fork with GRIP damper is surprisingly good and the Factory series GRIP2 products are a step above. Haven't tried the GRIP2 in Performance level, without Kashima.

It's difficult to separate the effects of Kashima, if any, from the tolerance control and performance of the damper, bushings, spring, etc., so I'm not yet ready to conclude Kashima is contributing to the performance.


ajax-ripper wrote:
When you buy a higher end fox fork almost everything increase in quality. The stanchions are made of a better grade aluminum and have thinner walls while maintaining a similar stiffness, the tolerances between the stanchion tubes and the bushings are usually more consistent and easily in less striction, most importantly the internal seals are usually lubricated properly from the favor and aren't sticktion city.

Looks like we were writing at the same time and thinking along the same lines.

Posted: Nov 8, 2019 at 19:31 Quote
Should be pretty easy to do a back to back. I was under the impression the performance elite and factory were identical besides the kashima coating. Is this not correct?

Posted: Nov 8, 2019 at 19:43 Quote
scjeremy wrote:
Should be pretty easy to do a back to back. I was under the impression the performance elite and factory were identical besides the kashima coating. Is this not correct?
Would be easy to find out, check air shaft part numbers if same then the forks are the same.

Posted: Nov 8, 2019 at 19:45 Quote
scjeremy wrote:
Should be pretty easy to do a back to back. I was under the impression the performance elite and factory were identical besides the kashima coating. Is this not correct?

There would still be the need to control for tolerances, but yes, it would be a good start. Could swap the lowers back and forth to average out the bushing tolerances.

Posted: Nov 8, 2019 at 20:04 Quote
scjeremy wrote:
Should be pretty easy to do a back to back. I was under the impression the performance elite and factory were identical besides the kashima coating. Is this not correct?

that's always been my understanding too.

Posted: Nov 8, 2019 at 20:28 Quote
sherbet wrote:
Hype my man, hype. That's what Kashima has going for it, and people buy it up.

I buy it up because I don’t particularly care for the look of black stanchions, especially now that every brand is running them. Silver-gold ano was always cool with me, nickel plated was even better, and the Marz Espresso took the cake Cool

All gone now though, so in today’s market I would argue not looking like everything else on the market is what Kashima has going for it.


 
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