Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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Posted: Nov 19, 2019 at 7:46 Quote
I thought high anti-squat also had a habit of making the suspension feel wooden and lacking traction while under power (technical climbs). Or is that more just a product of suspension tuning?

Posted: Nov 19, 2019 at 10:19 Quote
PHeller wrote:
I thought high anti-squat also had a habit of making the suspension feel wooden and lacking traction while under power (technical climbs). Or is that more just a product of suspension tuning?

There is a lot of things that can do that, including low AS bikes pushing you to use a shock lockout, which is as rigid as it gets. To me, being able to leave the shock full open, AND still put the power down, is as active as it gets. On a real chundery climb lower AS will probably track better with the shock full open, but you'll be sucking more air to get the job done haha.

Posted: Nov 19, 2019 at 12:39 Quote
PHeller wrote:
I thought high anti-squat also had a habit of making the suspension feel wooden and lacking traction while under power (technical climbs). Or is that more just a product of suspension tuning?

That would be a criticism of high anti-squat. Equally though lower anti squat feels sluggish and wollowy.


I like a good amount of anti-squat myself, it feels like when you start to put power down the bike knows what you're trying to do and it works with you. Low anti-squat feels like shit when you try to put power down, feels like all your energy goes into making the suspension bob and not propelling the bike forwards - but traction climbing will be excellent.

Posted: Nov 19, 2019 at 13:03 Quote
So dh bikes? No anti squat? That’s why they don’t pedal well?

Goes back to what Chris porter said a while ago about there’s no reason you couldn’t pedal a dh bike if you could get the saddle in the right place and the pedalling characteristic were good

Posted: Nov 19, 2019 at 13:11 Quote
bikerboywill wrote:
There’s no reason you couldn’t pedal a dh bike if you could get the saddle in the right place and the pedalling characteristic were good

Back in the day my only bike was a Turner DHR and I pedaled that thing everywhere. No ragrets

Posted: Nov 19, 2019 at 13:23 Quote
bikerboywill wrote:
So dh bikes? No anti squat? That’s why they don’t pedal well?

Goes back to what Chris porter said a while ago about there’s no reason you couldn’t pedal a dh bike if you could get the saddle in the right place and the pedalling characteristic were good

You would design a DH bike to have low anti-squat.


Anti-squat and pedal kickback are linked and so on a bike you want to be able to plow super confidently through chunder you don't want much anti-squat because you don't want the chain tugging and working against the suspension.


Seeing as you don't pedal a DH bike uphill there's no need to have decent anti-squat numbers.


About the Chris Porter thing:

DH bikes pedal like shit because
1) 200+mm travel
2) Bad suspension kinematics for climbing
3) Heavy (need heavy duty wheels and tires)
4) Bad seat positions
5) Short cage mechs and small cassettes

Why its difficult to make a DH bike that pedals
1) Adding pedal switches alters the internal layouts of the suspension and is likely to detract from DH performance.
2) If you altered the kinematics to make it climb better it would no longer descend quite like a DH bike. Wouldn't plow as well.
3) If you put lighter tires and wheels on it wouldn't be as durable or hold its line as well.
4) Often you can't get a great seat position because very few DH suspension designs allow a long straight seat tube that you could insert a dropper into.
5) To pedal a 40lb bike uphill you're going to want a 50+t chainring at the back. That's going to require a long cage mech. Long cage mechs get smashed by rocks and shit.


There's companies out there have made their attempts at a DH bike that pedals. Raaw's Madonna, Canyon's Torque (based on the Sender), Specialized's new Enduro (based on the Demo), Geometron's bikes are the result of trying to make a DH bike that pedals. As the results of all of those bikes show, by the time you've made all the compromises you have to make to produce something that actually can be pedalled it is no longer a DH bike.

Posted: Nov 19, 2019 at 13:28 Quote
would something like a gearbox, high pinion and if posible having 2 circuits for the shock make it work?

Posted: Nov 19, 2019 at 14:08 Quote
The gear box helps with point 5 for sure.


What is considered DH bike performance is a moving goalpost, it's getting better all the time. All 4 of the super-enduro bikes I mentioned above descend as well or better than DH bikes did not that long ago, but not better than a modern DH bike.


Super Enduro bikes in the future will continue to give DH bikes a run for their money, but the DH performance will never converge because inherently a bike that needs to be pedalled must make some compromises where as a purpose built DH bike does not have to make any.


The good thing is that bikes are getting way way better across all categories and we're all going to have awesome bikes to ride

Posted: Nov 19, 2019 at 19:30 Quote
tom666 wrote:
PHeller wrote:
I thought high anti-squat also had a habit of making the suspension feel wooden and lacking traction while under power (technical climbs). Or is that more just a product of suspension tuning?

That would be a criticism of high anti-squat. Equally though lower anti squat feels sluggish and wollowy.


I like a good amount of anti-squat myself, it feels like when you start to put power down the bike knows what you're trying to do and it works with you. Low anti-squat feels like shit when you try to put power down, feels like all your energy goes into making the suspension bob and not propelling the bike forwards - but traction climbing will be excellent.

This gets right back to my first point, that turning higher cadence (80-100) and good pedaling technique are something that can benefit many riders. After returning to road riding after a two decade hiatus, I had found my pedaling technique had deteriorated greatly. After putting in some time on the roadbike I started using my smaller gears more often. If you pedal properly, anti-squat doesn't improve your efficiency or power. In fact, my knolly that has very little anti-sqaut is my best climber. Bikes don't "squat" unless you are bobbing your body. Seated pedaling with good technique does not cause shock compression. Even standing climbing doesn't cause excessive bobbing if you engage your core and keep your body still. My knolly crawls up the steepest gnarliest climbs because the low anti-squat allows the suspension to work even under pedal load. It also stays more active with braking.

Posted: Nov 19, 2019 at 21:09 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
lol

Posted: Nov 19, 2019 at 21:48 Quote
rahrider wrote:
good pedaling technique

uhhhh guess i'll sign up for spin classes then Confused

Posted: Nov 19, 2019 at 21:58 Quote
sosburn wrote:
rahrider wrote:
good pedaling technique

uhhhh guess i'll sign up for spin classes then Confused

And buy spandex bib shorts!

Posted: Nov 19, 2019 at 22:37 Quote
rahrider wrote:
sosburn wrote:
rahrider wrote:
good pedaling technique

uhhhh guess i'll sign up for spin classes then Confused

And buy spandex bib shorts!

im not gonna lie, i wear bibs under my normal riding gear, so comfortable.

Posted: Nov 20, 2019 at 0:20 Quote
thuren wrote:
My bike has quite a bit of [pedaling anti-squat]

You're not kidding: highest on the market, as far as I can tell!


PHeller wrote:
I thought high anti-squat also had a habit of making the suspension feel wooden and lacking traction while under power (technical climbs). Or is that more just a product of suspension tuning?

When pedaling in your lowest ratios, it's true the bump forces will interact with your pedaling and both will be negatively affected. You do get over the obstacle a little faster, though, and the effect vanishes in higher ratios. High anti-squat can reduce traction in extreme situations - again, in the lowest ratios. Overall, I feel the benefits of high anti-squat outweight the detriments.


bikerboywill wrote:
[ ... ] there’s no reason you couldn’t pedal a dh bike if you could get the saddle in the right place and the pedalling characteristic were good

This is true. Single-ply tires will also help. Just an overweight, long-travel trail bike.


tom666 wrote:
You would design a DH bike to have low anti-squat.

Anti-squat and pedal kickback are linked and so on a bike you want to be able to plow super confidently through chunder you don't want much anti-squat because you don't want the chain tugging and working against the suspension.

Seeing as you don't pedal a DH bike uphill there's no need to have decent anti-squat numbers.

1. It's true that DH bikes don't necessarily need high anti-squat. They do, however, benefit from a more rearward axle path, which is essentially synonymous with high anti-squat for a given wheel size. This is why idler sprockets are appearing on DH bikes: they permit an axle path that would create intolerable kickback without the idler.

2. Kickback while pedaling does not exist. If your suspension compressed quickly enough for the chain elongation to outpace the cassette rotation, you would have more serious problems than kickback!


tom666 wrote:
1) Adding pedal switches alters the internal layouts of the suspension and is likely to detract from DH performance.
2) If you altered the kinematics to make it climb better it would no longer descend quite like a DH bike. Wouldn't plow as well.
3) If you put lighter tires and wheels on it wouldn't be as durable or hold its line as well.
4) Often you can't get a great seat position because very few DH suspension designs allow a long straight seat tube that you could insert a dropper into.
5) To pedal a 40lb bike uphill you're going to want a 50+t chainring at the back. That's going to require a long cage mech. Long cage mechs get smashed by rocks and shit.

There's companies out there have made their attempts at a DH bike that pedals. Raaw's Madonna, Canyon's Torque (based on the Sender), Specialized's new Enduro (based on the Demo), Geometron's bikes are the result of trying to make a DH bike that pedals. As the results of all of those bikes show, by the time you've made all the compromises you have to make to produce something that actually can be pedalled it is no longer a DH bike.

1. Not necessarily: Some shocks have separate circuits and DH racers occasionally use bar-mounted switches.
2. Disagree: The rearward axle path of a high instant-centre typically firms up the pedaling and improves compliance.
3. Very true.
4. True: Even if a dropper could be fitted, the seat tube angles are usually unsuitable for pedaling.
5. True, though a person could fit a super small chainring, which would also increase anti-squat.

I'm not convinced the examples you listed were intended as DH bikes that can pedal. I believe they were designed to have an amount of travel that works for the intended purpose and appeals to the intended customers. They were also given kinematics and ergonomics that suit the same. The new Enduro looks like a particularly well executed combination of XC and DH elements.


rahrider wrote:
Bikes don't "squat" unless you are bobbing your body. Seated pedaling with good technique does not cause shock compression. Even standing climbing doesn't cause excessive bobbing if you engage your core and keep your body still. My knolly crawls up the steepest gnarliest climbs because the low anti-squat allows the suspension to work even under pedal load. It also stays more active with braking.

• Acceleration forces can, and do, cause squat. Inertial forces from the rider's legs and/or torso also upset the chassis stability. There are a lot of forces happening.
• It's true that a bike with low kickback climbs in a manner that feels smooth to your legs and typically has better traction. This doesn't necessarily mean it's more efficient or that it doesn't squat or bob.
• Pedaling anti-squat and brake squat are separate parameters. There are bikes with high anti-squat that also have low brake squat, meaning the suspension is strongly influenced by chain tension, which keeps it stable, yet there is minimal influence from braking.


 
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