Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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Posted: Nov 20, 2019 at 22:08 Quote
sosburn wrote:
kwapik wrote:
So Soburn - what did you end up choosing instead of the Ripmo?

got a Wreckoning LB on the CHEAP.

Right on. Time to shred!

Posted: Nov 21, 2019 at 0:46 Quote
R-M-R wrote:



I meant pedal kickback when coasting, rather than pedalling - I should have made that clear.

You do see remote lockouts in the WC sometimes, but is that not a compromise made for very pedally tracks and not something you'd be likely to run year round? You rarely see a pedal lever on a DH oriented shock. The Rockshox Super Duluxe Ultimate DH for example and most of the longer stroke X2s don't have pedal levers, where as the shorter stroke (more AM/Enduro) versions of the same shocks tend to have them. Rather that rather than Fox/RS just not bothering to add it because few people would use it they don't feature them because the added complication and slight performance sacrifice isn't a good call on a DH bike, unlike on an enduro bike where it makes a lot of sense.

As for a DH bike that can be pedalled. I guess the Enduro particularly does go quite a long way back towards being a bike that's a more all mountain friendly. A Commencal supreme SX is actually a better example of somebody trying to make a DH rig that can be pedalled, although they sell that bike with EXO tires for some reason Blank Stare

Posted: Nov 21, 2019 at 4:03 Quote
tom666 wrote:
I meant pedal kickback when coasting

I haven't determined how much kickback would be needed for coasting kickback to become a problem because it would be so high that pedaling would be essentially impossible, not to mention unbearably inefficient. There is no kickback while coasting. None.

If you want to verify it for yourself, calculate the rate of suspension compression at which the rate of chainstay lengthening exceeds the cassette's forward rotation - and remember to account for the average amount of slack in the hub's driver. This would be the point at which any kickback occurs, let alone problematic kickback. You'll find the rate of compression is unrealistically high.


tom666 wrote:
You do see remote lockouts in the WC sometimes, but is that not a compromise made for very pedally tracks and not something you'd be likely to run year round? You rarely see a pedal lever on a DH oriented shock. [ ... ] the added complication and slight performance sacrifice isn't a good call on a DH bike, unlike on an enduro bike where it makes a lot of sense.

There may be zero compromise - or so close to zero as to be effectively zero - especially if the firmed-up setting has a separate circuit, in which case the reasons to not run a remote would be:

• Ease of adjustment: It's a hassle to fine-tune low-speed compression damping on some systems with lockouts.
• Clutter / aesthetics: They do look a bit awful and there's no sense mounting something that won't be used on most tracks.

Some teams think the benefits outweigh the detriments on some tracks. Maybe more teams should use them more often or maybe the benefits never outweigh the detriments. In downhill racing, I suspect it's beneficial only when the bike is sub-optimal.


tom666 wrote:
A Commencal supreme SX is actually a better example of somebody trying to make a DH rig that can be pedalled, although they sell that bike with EXO tires for some reason Blank Stare

Idlers are a clever way to manage kickback while having:

• Plenty of anti-squat
• A more compliant axle path
• The ability to tune rear-centre during compression, though I'm not yet sure how I feel about rear-centre lengthening during compression

As for the rest of the bike, it's true that XC pedaling isn't its forté. And it would be interesting to hear an explanation for EXO tires on that bike! lol

Posted: Nov 21, 2019 at 4:32 Quote
thuren wrote:
Naaaaa not that heavy AS 115-130% or so(rider height dependent) at heavy sag(steep climb). Makes that open coil shock not feel like an open coil shock haha!

I don't know ... Whenever I get a surprising result I run several simulations from several photos and they've all come out with the Crowbar at the top of the anti-squat ranking! It's possible the simulations are way off, but two of them agree perfectly and one differs by about 10%, so I have decent confidence.

What inputs are you using: sprocket combination, sag, centre of mass locations? I can't replicate anything close to 115 - 130% for a Crowbar, even at full droop, and your anti-squat increases with bump.

Feel free to PM if you'd rather not discuss it publicly, or I understand if you'd rather not get into it at all.

Posted: Nov 21, 2019 at 5:37 Quote
R-M-R wrote:

I haven't determined how much kickback would be needed for coasting kickback to become a problem because it would be so high that pedaling would be essentially impossible, not to mention unbearably inefficient. There is no kickback while coasting. None.

If you want to verify it for yourself, calculate the rate of suspension compression at which the rate of chainstay lengthening exceeds the cassette's forward rotation - and remember to account for the average amount of slack in the hub's driver. This would be the point at which any kickback occurs, let alone problematic kickback. You'll find the rate of compression is unrealistically high.



There may be zero compromise - or so close to zero as to be effectively zero - especially if the firmed-up setting has a separate circuit, in which case the reasons to not run a remote would be:

• Ease of adjustment: It's a hassle to fine-tune low-speed compression damping on some systems with lockouts.
• Clutter / aesthetics: They do look a bit awful and there's no sense mounting something that won't be used on most tracks.

Some teams think the benefits outweigh the detriments on some tracks. Maybe more teams should use them more often or maybe the benefits never outweigh the detriments. In downhill racing, I suspect it's beneficial only when the bike is sub-optimal.




Idlers are a clever way to manage kickback while having:

• Plenty of anti-squat
• A more compliant axle path
• The ability to tune rear-centre during compression, though I'm not yet sure how I feel about rear-centre lengthening during compression

As for the rest of the bike, it's true that XC pedaling isn't its forté. And it would be interesting to hear an explanation for EXO tires on that bike! lol

Are we definitely talking out the same thing here?

Pedal kickback is when the the suspension compresses rapidly and the chain forces the cranks to rotate backwards?

If you are in a suitable gear for descending it rarely has much impact, but if you are still in a big ring from climbing and you drop in you can feel violent kickback through the pedals if the suspension compresses quickly. I've experienced it many times but I can think of a particularly nasty set of steps at revolution bike park where my feet always used to get blown off the pedals when I was riding my YT Jeffsy, even when in an appropriate gear. The rear end hadn't recovered from the first big step when it hits the second and the cranks would rotate hard backwards as it shoots through to a bottom out. I ride left foot forward and so it would always be my left foot that would blow off (because the pedal wants to go upwards and backwards and my foot wants to go downwards and forwards and so they would slip past each other).





This video has the exact section I was talking about in. Matt Jones (a pro rider) says as he gets through it "to be honest my feet normally come off the pedals through those steps" - which I found a little bit life affirming - not just me has trouble there. Watch from 2:28 if you just want to see that bit.

Also lmao at how mellow a gopro makes that section look, in real life it is so disgustingly tech, steep and greasy.


Fair enough about the pedal switches, I clearly had a misconception about the amount of internals that had to be changed to accommodate a pedal switch.


About the tires on the SX - pretty funny ay. I reckon it's either the EXOs are way, way cheaper OE or perhaps they're worried about the claimed weight? Either way it's weak. That bike deserves DDs at least.

Posted: Nov 21, 2019 at 7:17 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
thuren wrote:
Naaaaa not that heavy AS 115-130% or so(rider height dependent) at heavy sag(steep climb). Makes that open coil shock not feel like an open coil shock haha!

I don't know ... Whenever I get a surprising result I run several simulations from several photos and they've all come out with the Crowbar at the top of the anti-squat ranking! It's possible the simulations are way off, but two of them agree perfectly and one differs by about 10%, so I have decent confidence.

What inputs are you using: sprocket combination, sag, centre of mass locations? I can't replicate anything close to 115 - 130% for a Crowbar, even at full droop, and your anti-squat increases with bump.

Feel free to PM if you'd rather not discuss it publicly, or I understand if you'd rather not get into it at all.


This is fun I blocked a few numbers but I don't mind showing this at all this is fun. I'm in patent pending stage so all good!

Extreme as I can get the realistic in-use number... Sag, 30t chainring, small rear cog, blah blah... In the larger rear cogs AS goes down to normal numbers.

Crowbar geo

Posted: Nov 21, 2019 at 7:59 Quote
just curious why the patent? it looks like a single pivot unless im missing something

Posted: Nov 21, 2019 at 8:05 Quote
sosburn wrote:
ajax-ripper wrote:
sosburn wrote:


ok we get it, you don’t like Ibis
Why would you swap from carbon to alloy and not be compensated...?
a lot of people prefer alloy over carbon (not saying i agree)

I think he just meant he has a used frame and he can swap frames without having to spend money for a brand new one.

This. I don't really care about frame material/weight. I'm running DD tires, cushcore, coil, GX eagle... Reserve rims with cushcore do most of the vibration damping over the frame material. Plus, I am a firm believer that frame compliance is an under-rated attribute to frame design. Probably one of the reasons the 130 feels soooooo good in the rough and off camber situations. So as long as the frame isn't "uber" stiff, material really doesn't play in to my criteria.

Posted: Nov 21, 2019 at 8:19 Quote
ajax-ripper wrote:
Why would you swap from carbon to alloy and not be compensated...?

I’d much rather have a high end aluminum frame than a bad carbon one. Aluminum santa crus, or ripmo af vs say a Chinese carbon catalog frame. I’d say geometry and suspension design far outweighs frame material.

Posted: Nov 21, 2019 at 8:21 Quote
ktm87 wrote:
just curious why the patent? it looks like a single pivot unless im missing something

It is a single pivot, but with a unique shape and pivot placement. Just like everything else in the cycling industry it ain't cool unless it's patented!!!



^^^^ Poking fun at myself there really...

Posted: Nov 21, 2019 at 8:28 Quote
There just hasn't been much in regards to rider reviews anywhere on the Ripmo AF, and a lot of reviews on the Ripmo said its more trail bike than its numbers suggest - so was hoping that the increase in progresssivity, slacker head angle, and longer reach helped negate that and gave it a little more planted feeling.

I should add the most of my riding does not require a super planted bike - but I frequent Windrock all winter and snowshoe in the summer and need a "trail" bike that can handle bike park abuse.

And if you have ridden Windrock, you know you need a bike that is comfortable in blown out steeeeeeeps.

Posted: Nov 21, 2019 at 8:37 Quote
tom666 wrote:

Are we definitely talking out the same thing here?

Pedal kickback is when the the suspension compresses rapidly and the chain forces the cranks to rotate backwards?

If you are in a suitable gear for descending it rarely has much impact, but if you are still in a big ring from climbing and you drop in you can feel violent kickback through the pedals if the suspension compresses quickly. I've experienced it many times but I can think of a particularly nasty set of steps at revolution bike park where my feet always used to get blown off the pedals when I was riding my YT Jeffsy, even when in an appropriate gear. The rear end hadn't recovered from the first big step when it hits the second and the cranks would rotate hard backwards as it shoots through to a bottom out. I ride left foot forward and so it would always be my left foot that would blow off (because the pedal wants to go upwards and backwards and my foot wants to go downwards and forwards and so they would slip past each other).



My bike has higher than average chain growth, so I did a lot of testing regarding pedal kickback, even so much as testing back to back with higher engagement hubs to see if that made a big difference. Didn't notice anything there really between using the lower end 240s(lower tooth count) hubs vs i9 billion point engagement hubs... Like you the only time I noticed it was forgetting to shift into a faster gear dropping in, but even more so was doing a full lock up skid through braking bumps. If the rear tire was allowed to roll and in even close to the right gear, my feet being blown off was only from improper suspension set up or just out riding the travel/terrain...

Posted: Nov 21, 2019 at 8:54 Quote
tangaroo wrote:
There just hasn't been much in regards to rider reviews anywhere on the Ripmo AF, and a lot of reviews on the Ripmo said its more trail bike than its numbers suggest - so was hoping that the increase in progresssivity, slacker head angle, and longer reach helped negate that and gave it a little more planted feeling.

I should add the most of my riding does not require a super planted bike - but I frequent Windrock all winter and snowshoe in the summer and need a "trail" bike that can handle bike park abuse.

And if you have ridden Windrock, you know you need a bike that is comfortable in blown out steeeeeeeps.

yeah the AF still kinda felt like a big trailbike to me. i think i actually preferred the SC 5010 in steep trails. A specific trail i have in mind is basically a really blown out chute and the AF felt like it was holding back a bit. could just be me but it didnt feel like a bike id be wanting to ride on trails like that all the time.

Posted: Nov 21, 2019 at 9:11 Quote
sosburn wrote:

yeah the AF still kinda felt like a big trailbike to me. i think i actually preferred the SC 5010 in steep trails. A specific trail i have in mind is basically a really blown out chute and the AF felt like it was holding back a bit. could just be me but it didnt feel like a bike id be wanting to ride on trails like that all the time.

I've owned/ridden every generation of 5010. You must be drunk. The 5010 is a little wheeled short travel play bike. The Ripmo is a medium travel 29er with all mountain geo. We have some steep blown out chutes in Santa Cruz and the Ripmo was never a problem.

I've put about 100 miles on the new Hightower, which has similar geo to the Ripmo AF. The slacker HA is noticeable. It does calm the front end of the bike down, but didn't take anything anyway from how playful or nimble the bike is.

Posted: Nov 21, 2019 at 9:11 Quote
sosburn wrote:
tangaroo wrote:
There just hasn't been much in regards to rider reviews anywhere on the Ripmo AF, and a lot of reviews on the Ripmo said its more trail bike than its numbers suggest - so was hoping that the increase in progresssivity, slacker head angle, and longer reach helped negate that and gave it a little more planted feeling.

I should add the most of my riding does not require a super planted bike - but I frequent Windrock all winter and snowshoe in the summer and need a "trail" bike that can handle bike park abuse.

And if you have ridden Windrock, you know you need a bike that is comfortable in blown out steeeeeeeps.

yeah the AF still kinda felt like a big trailbike to me. i think i actually preferred the SC 5010 in steep trails. A specific trail i have in mind is basically a really blown out chute and the AF felt like it was holding back a bit. could just be me but it didnt feel like a bike id be wanting to ride on trails like that all the time.

Really. So not much different over the old Ripmo then? I was hoping the AF was more AM than trail, the old Ripmo always seemed like a trail bike with extra squish.


 
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