Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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Posted: Nov 22, 2019 at 9:52 Quote
skerby wrote:
In the days before big negative springs in forks, I ran like 30% out back and 5-10% in the fork.

I keep trying to set my bike up like this with newer forks and it just doesn't seem to work. Fork is so much stiffer than shock that it is really hard to get it to move. I finally relented and have been much happier with more even sag front to back.

Current fork is a 2017 36 with Luftkappe. Last bike that worked good the old way (30 rear, 5-10 front) had a 2014 Pike with the OEM air spring.

My issue was bike geometry, mostly pertaining to steep head angle. The only way I'm getting away with this now is having the 63.5* static head angle, so running a lower and more active front end gets the geometry more in line when weighting the bike, instead of the opposite when starting with a 66* or so head angle.

Posted: Nov 22, 2019 at 9:54 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
thuren wrote:
I always hated having to run my bikes in the past with 30-40% rear sag, and maybe 5-10% front sag, to have the bike hold better geo with aggressive riding/terrain. Big part of the Crowbar was being designed to run more balanced sag front to rear, mainly so using most of the fork travel on a regular ride was possible. Example..... On my Stumpy and Enduro I used to run 95-110psi no tokens in my Fox 36, and on the Crowbar I run 75-80psi with 2-3 tokens, to have the bike handle proper.

Interesting perspective. I get what you're saying, but I actually like the firm spring and minimal ramp-up on my fork because it stays higher in the travel for a given bottom-out force.

Totally, but what is your unweighted bike head angle, on the bike(s) you like to ride this way?

Posted: Nov 22, 2019 at 9:55 Quote
I find it wild that when not on the bike and pushing on the fork the rear end suspension starts working. Only bike I have ever had that does this. I am guessing it's from the forward pivot? Bu

Posted: Nov 22, 2019 at 10:09 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
skerby wrote:
In the days before big negative springs in forks, I ran like 30% out back and 5-10% in the fork.

I keep trying to set my bike up like this with newer forks and it just doesn't seem to work. Fork is so much stiffer than shock that it is really hard to get it to move. I finally relented and have been much happier with more even sag front to back.

Current fork is a 2017 36 with Luftkappe. Last bike that worked good the old way (30 rear, 5-10 front) had a 2014 Pike with the OEM air spring.

Have you considered a coil?

I should add to my previous statements that I'm on a coil sprung fork and so far, so good.

Last coil fork was the marzocchi 55 RC3 evo or something like that from like 2013. It was really good, but had a decent amount of sag.

I am always trying to run firmest possible spring setting with as few spacers as possible. It just gets to a point where the bike handles really weird if stiffness balance is way off. Front gets way more boost from jumps and the bars move a lot when you hit a bump because it just gets transferred back to the shock. This is on a setup with no spacers that I couldn't possibly bottom.

Posted: Nov 22, 2019 at 10:12 Quote
skerby wrote:
In the days before big negative springs in forks, I ran like 30% out back and 5-10% in the fork.

I keep trying to set my bike up like this with newer forks and it just doesn't seem to work. Fork is so much stiffer than shock that it is really hard to get it to move. I finally relented and have been much happier with more even sag front to back.

Current fork is a 2017 36 with Luftkappe. Last bike that worked good the old way (30 rear, 5-10 front) had a 2014 Pike with the OEM air spring.

i run my 36 chock full of spacers but with 65ish psi in it. nice and supple but really good ramp up

Posted: Nov 22, 2019 at 10:21 Quote
thuren wrote:
Totally, but what is your unweighted bike head angle, on the bike(s) you like to ride this way?

About a degree steeper than yours. I see what you're getting at and we probably have similar head angles on descents.

When discussing suspension "balance", I feel the set-up of more sag in the rear than the front becomes balanced on descents due to weight transfer. On flats and climbs, the reduced sag of the front facilitates little hops and front-end adjustments.

Posted: Nov 22, 2019 at 10:28 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
thuren wrote:
Totally, but what is your unweighted bike head angle, on the bike(s) you like to ride this way?

About a degree steeper than yours. I see what you're getting at and we probably have similar head angles on descents.

When discussing suspension "balance", I feel the set-up of more sag in the rear than the front becomes balanced on descents due to weight transfer. On flats and climbs, the reduced sag of the front facilitates little hops and front-end adjustments.


Totally agree.

Posted: Nov 22, 2019 at 15:05 Quote
sosburn wrote:
skerby wrote:
In the days before big negative springs in forks, I ran like 30% out back and 5-10% in the fork.

I keep trying to set my bike up like this with newer forks and it just doesn't seem to work. Fork is so much stiffer than shock that it is really hard to get it to move. I finally relented and have been much happier with more even sag front to back.

Current fork is a 2017 36 with Luftkappe. Last bike that worked good the old way (30 rear, 5-10 front) had a 2014 Pike with the OEM air spring.

i run my 36 chock full of spacers but with 65ish psi in it. nice and supple but really good ramp up

Have you tried the opposite as this is how I used to run my forks to make up for poor damping. I’m now a firm believer in putting as little ramp up as possible on forks and running less sag as they have such good negative air springs.
For reference I run the standard 1 spacer in my EvoL 36’s but run 98psi and I’m 78kg

Posted: Nov 22, 2019 at 15:36 Quote
bikerboywill wrote:
sosburn wrote:
skerby wrote:
In the days before big negative springs in forks, I ran like 30% out back and 5-10% in the fork.

I keep trying to set my bike up like this with newer forks and it just doesn't seem to work. Fork is so much stiffer than shock that it is really hard to get it to move. I finally relented and have been much happier with more even sag front to back.

Current fork is a 2017 36 with Luftkappe. Last bike that worked good the old way (30 rear, 5-10 front) had a 2014 Pike with the OEM air spring.

i run my 36 chock full of spacers but with 65ish psi in it. nice and supple but really good ramp up

Have you tried the opposite as this is how I used to run my forks to make up for poor damping. I’m now a firm believer in putting as little ramp up as possible on forks and running less sag as they have such good negative air springs.
For reference I run the standard 1 spacer in my EvoL 36’s but run 98psi and I’m 78kg

Yeah i wasn't a fan. I always would end up with lsc and hsc completely backed out and no room for adjustment without it getting really harsh, and then it just blew through the travel when i hit any big feature. with my method, i get a nice supple first 40ish% of the stroke, and the last 60% is progressive af for pushing hard into corners and not completely bottoming on landings.

Posted: Nov 22, 2019 at 15:44 Quote
Most forks are over damped

Posted: Nov 22, 2019 at 16:16 Quote
Circe wrote:
Most forks are over damped

Eat a sandwich.

Posted: Nov 22, 2019 at 16:25 Quote
Circe wrote:
Most forks are over damped

Posted: Nov 22, 2019 at 17:58 Quote
My fat ass feels personally attacked by that sentiment. lol

Posted: Nov 22, 2019 at 18:10 Quote
Circe wrote:
Most forks are over damped

The Grip2 Fox is pretty darn good, and I don't know if I would call it over-damped, but yes at 200lbs I still have all HSC off.

Posted: Nov 22, 2019 at 18:11 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
My fat ass feels personally attacked by that sentiment. lol
Don't, the market caters to you people. It's annoying trying to set up things for light folk and not being able to dial it back enough


 
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