Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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Posted: Dec 9, 2019 at 23:30 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
Sounds like it's wise for you to tie up some capital and keep it out of Specialized's accounts! Wink

Haha.. They have been really generous with EP deals lately. Absolutely no way I could ball on a bike shop budget without bro deals.


I am trying to figure out a career, if I don't know what I want to do for a career when I grow up, I should probably at least try and have some passive income established.

Posted: Dec 9, 2019 at 23:57 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
PHeller wrote:
It is pretty amazing that Rockshox has managed to be such a dominant suspension producer despite numerous companies with far more experience in other fields wading into the market.

Some of that is due to SRAM's OE pricing policy:

To purchase OE directly from SRAM, you have to buy six-figures worth of parts. At OE prices, which are far below wholesale, that's a lot of parts.

Further price breaks happen at various purchase levels, some of which are attainable only for large clients.

SRAM makes big-ticket items, such as shocks, forks, and seatposts, that make it easier for small and mid-sized companies to hit the minimum order quantity, which is why we often see these companies using fully SRAM kits. In the recent past, we would even see SRAM's sub-par wheels spec'd by companies desperate to hit a price threshold - no one was spec'ing SRAM wheels for the performance or prestige!

Large companies can hit the highest price breaks of multiple vendors, so you'll see the big guys spec'ing a mix of SRAM, Shimano, Fox, etc. And when you're as big as Giant, you cut out the middle man and make your own!

That was my understanding as well, but thanks for putting it so succinctly.

I wonder if anyone still buys low/mid level SRAM gear from shops, since the market is flooded with mid-level taken-off-new-bike brakes and gearing.

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 0:01 Quote
swan3609 wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
Sounds like it's wise for you to tie up some capital and keep it out of Specialized's accounts! Wink

Haha.. They have been really generous with EP deals lately. Absolutely no way I could ball on a bike shop budget without bro deals.


I am trying to figure out a career, if I don't know what I want to do for a career when I grow up, I should probably at least try and have some passive income established.

Didn’t you go to heli mechanic school?

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 0:02 Quote
SileTzar wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
PHeller wrote:
It is pretty amazing that Rockshox has managed to be such a dominant suspension producer despite numerous companies with far more experience in other fields wading into the market.

Some of that is due to SRAM's OE pricing policy:

To purchase OE directly from SRAM, you have to buy six-figures worth of parts. At OE prices, which are far below wholesale, that's a lot of parts.

Further price breaks happen at various purchase levels, some of which are attainable only for large clients.

SRAM makes big-ticket items, such as shocks, forks, and seatposts, that make it easier for small and mid-sized companies to hit the minimum order quantity, which is why we often see these companies using fully SRAM kits. In the recent past, we would even see SRAM's sub-par wheels spec'd by companies desperate to hit a price threshold - no one was spec'ing SRAM wheels for the performance or prestige!

Large companies can hit the highest price breaks of multiple vendors, so you'll see the big guys spec'ing a mix of SRAM, Shimano, Fox, etc. And when you're as big as Giant, you cut out the middle man and make your own!

That was my understanding as well, but thanks for putting it so succinctly.

I wonder if anyone still buys low/mid level SRAM gear from shops, since the market is flooded with mid-level taken-off-new-bike brakes and gearing.

Repair sales for SX/NX/GX drivetrains are huge.. When we have a customer with a blown out 2x drivetrain where they need Cass/Chainrings/chain, we have about 85% success getting them to convert to a entry/mid level SRAM drivetrain.. Probably did 40 of these upgrades this year.

Aftermarket sales are definitely lower, but for repair purposes, it's a great option for those that have us do the work.

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 2:48 Quote
swan3609 wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
dchill wrote:
[ ... ] it would be a good time for RS to reintroduce the Totem.

Maybe it's a good time for double-crowns. 180 mm, 29er single-crowns are longer than 200 mm, 650b doubles. A full inch longer than 200 mm, 26" doubles. And now our bikes have enough reach that we won't hit our knees on the upper crowns.

The Onyx SC on the Levo is awesome.. But still lacks stiffness when trying to use it as a DH fork. I will probably end up with a MRP Bartlett eventually for the Enduro. Just want to see some reviews on it.. It's such a cool idea, but has been total radio silence on reviews of it.
Glad I decided to go with the Mezzer over the Onyx SC.
I stayed away from the Bartlett for the same reason. There is nothing on it out there. Plus maybe for shop people their ep is good but for industry people it’s slightly less then Q’s price.
As much as I like the Mezzer I am still tempted by the thought of a Dorado when it is available again.

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 2:56 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
dchill wrote:
[ ... ] it would be a good time for RS to reintroduce the Totem.

Maybe it's a good time for double-crowns. 180 mm, 29er single-crowns are longer than 200 mm, 650b doubles. A full inch longer than 200 mm, 26" doubles. And now our bikes have enough reach that we won't hit our knees on the upper crowns.

Totem was the best single crown fork i had owned,my stealth black Totem was pretty special
My custom Totem with black stanchions

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 6:30 Quote
fantaman wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
dchill wrote:
[ ... ] it would be a good time for RS to reintroduce the Totem.

Maybe it's a good time for double-crowns. 180 mm, 29er single-crowns are longer than 200 mm, 650b doubles. A full inch longer than 200 mm, 26" doubles. And now our bikes have enough reach that we won't hit our knees on the upper crowns.

Totem was the best single crown fork i had owned,my stealth black Totem was pretty special
My custom Totem with black stanchions

Hands down, coolest fork on pinkbike ever. Totems were rad.

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 7:41 Quote
skerby wrote:
fantaman wrote:
R-M-R wrote:


Maybe it's a good time for double-crowns. 180 mm, 29er single-crowns are longer than 200 mm, 650b doubles. A full inch longer than 200 mm, 26" doubles. And now our bikes have enough reach that we won't hit our knees on the upper crowns.

Totem was the best single crown fork i had owned,my stealth black Totem was pretty special
My custom Totem with black stanchions

Hands down, coolest fork on pinkbike ever. Totems were rad.

and they fit a 27.5 wheel

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 8:33 Quote
dchill wrote:
As much as I like the Mezzer I am still tempted by the thought of a Dorado when it is available again.
Do you have any more intel on the dorado??

I loved my Totem but they were nicknamed the Explodem for a reason. Switched to a coil 36 and never looked back

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 8:34 Quote
Circe wrote:
swan3609 wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
Sounds like it's wise for you to tie up some capital and keep it out of Specialized's accounts! Wink

Haha.. They have been really generous with EP deals lately. Absolutely no way I could ball on a bike shop budget without bro deals.


I am trying to figure out a career, if I don't know what I want to do for a career when I grow up, I should probably at least try and have some passive income established.

Didn’t you go to heli mechanic school?

Yep.. And got pretty burned out on living out of a suitcase for 6 months of the year after 4 years of it... And any job that doesn't travel only pays like 2/hr more than just working at the bike shop.. With a shit load more responsibility and headache.

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 8:48 Quote
I was all gungho to buy a Ribbon until I started reading the myriad of long-term community reviews. They are really popular in the GG community because they are both made in Colorado, but I've never heard such mixed reviews of a product that owners really wanted to love.

I also wasn't keen on the inside-out arch design, just as I'm not totally in love with Manitou's reverse arch. Manitou has been having some reports of sloppy bushings with the Mezzer as well.

It seems like if you could go to a roller-bearing style stanchion interface ala Lefty you'd get increased stiffness without the QA/QC issues of bushings. For these smaller quantity manufactures that'd allow their other improvements to shine (Manitou's great damper and MRP's built-in-USA ethos).

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 9:33 Quote
PHeller wrote:
It seems like if you could go to a roller-bearing style stanchion interface ala Lefty you'd get increased stiffness without the QA/QC issues of bushings. For these smaller quantity manufactures that'd allow their other improvements to shine (Manitou's great damper and MRP's built-in-USA ethos).

Possibly, but the roller bearings add weight and cost. Let's hold one variable constant at a time and see where it takes us:

• Weight: The fork with roller bearings now has to save weight elsewhere. The two easiest options are via reduced strength / stiffness or reduced oil volume, which will probably harm the performance of the damper.
• Cost: Now it has to cut cost somewhere. This will probably result in increased weight.

To look at it another way, if we allow the weight or cost to increase due to the roller bearings, imagine what a fork with bushings could accomplish if we allow its weight or cost to increase. We might be able to add DLC stanchion coatings, larger stanchions, a one-piece carbon CSU, or a spool valve damper with hydraulic bottom-out (looking at you, EXT!), which might make it a better fork than a basic fork with roller bearings.

Or we could just have linkage forks with bearings at every pivot and independent design control over anti-dive, motion ratio, and axle path, but I digress ...

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 9:51 Quote
How much do you think moving to rollers would add though... maybe a couple ounces?

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 9:57 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
How much do you think moving to rollers would add though... maybe a couple ounces?

Couple ounces ... conversion ... that's 57 g. Not sure. Might be double that? If so, that's 5% of the weight of a typical fork. Not huge. Cost increase could be, say, 10%? Could be worth it.

On the other hand, a lot can be gained via a fancy coating, like DLC, and 100 g more chassis mass. If roller bearings were a clear winner, I suspect they'd already be in use, though fear of change has kept a few other worthy innovations down, so who knows.

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 10:02 Quote
I'm totally cool with linkage forks as long as they don't look like complete ass. That new one from Adroit looks pretty good, but lacks some of the benefits of the Trust design.

Cannondale has proven you can make roller-bearing forks with round stanchions that look just like a normal fork, are lighter, stiffer, and don't cost tremendously more. The only reason Cannondale has struggled to launch that technology into the mainstream is 1) proprietary hubs 2) single side suspension lacks space for good damping/air spring tech.


 
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