Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 10:11 Quote

1400g, uses an Fox X2, 170mm, uses special 15mm axle compatible with any common 15mm hub - $1200.

"They claim that it doesn’t protrude any further rearward than a boost spaced single crown spun sideways, but there are frames out there that intentionally don’t clear those crowns and use a steering stop, instead. On those bikes, this fork is a no-go."

Unfortunately they've been working on this for a few years and I still think it's vaporware.

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 10:15 Quote
PHeller wrote:
I'm totally cool with linkage forks as long as they don't look like complete ass. That new one from Adroit looks pretty good, but lacks some of the benefits of the Trust design.

Cannondale has proven you can make roller-bearing forks with round stanchions that look just like a normal fork, are lighter, stiffer, and don't cost tremendously more. The only reason Cannondale has struggled to launch that technology into the mainstream is 1) proprietary hubs 2) single side suspension lacks space for good damping/air spring tech.

It's true, most linkage forks aren't the prettiest things. I also think F1 cars aren't pretty, but they look fast. Maybe we'll eventually see telescoping forks as looking cheap and primitive.

But anyway ...

Trust forks have a great chassis, crap kinematics, and fancy dampers that are getting better at covering for the kinematics.

You mentioned Cannondale forks "don't cost tremendously more". Maybe, but they do cost more. As I said, increased cost is one likely outcome of such a design, though there are a lot of variables in play for this comparison.

You also said Cannondale forks "look just like a normal fork". Have you counted the number of stanchions? Removing half the fork is enough to trigger the conservative types, so we're already far outside of a like-for(k)-like comparison to traditional forks.

It's disingenuous to choose an angle for the Adroit fork that hides the linkage. It's not the craziest linkage fork, but it still looks "busy" when it's on full display:


Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 10:30 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
You mentioned Cannondale forks "don't cost tremendously more". As I said, increased cost is one likely outcome of such a design, though there are a lot of variables in play for this comparison.
Considering how many people buy a Fox 36 GRIP2 then swap in a coil conversion for another $300-$400, I don't think $1500 forks are outside the range of the market, and as with most things they'll drop in price as they become more common.

R-M-R wrote:
You also said Cannondale forks "look just like a normal fork". Have you counted the number of stanchions? Removing half the fork is enough to trigger the conservative types, so we're already far outside of a like-for(k)-like comparison to traditional forks.

Sorry I meant the stanchions are now round, vs the old square versions. If they did a traditional two-side fork design of the Ocho, it'd look like a RS1. If they did a two-sided version of the Supermax, it'd look like a Dorado.

R-M-R wrote:
It's disingenuous to choose an angle for the Adroit fork that hides the linkage. It's not the craziest linkage fork, but it's still pretty "busy" when it's on full display:

I'd rather have the messiness at the top of the suspension vs the bottom. Could a Trust fork be turned upside down? All that linkage at the top of the fork might look better, IMO.

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 10:34 Quote
God I start looking at pictures of the Trust forks and remind myself how damn ugly they are. Sheesh!

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 10:35 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
badbadleroybrown wrote:
How much do you think moving to rollers would add though... maybe a couple ounces?

Couple ounces ... conversion ... that's 57 g. Not sure. Might be double that? If so, that's 5% of the weight of a typical fork. Not huge. Cost increase could be, say, 10%? Could be worth it.

On the other hand, a lot can be gained via a fancy coating, like DLC, and 100 g more chassis mass. If roller bearings were a clear winner, I suspect they'd already be in use, though fear of change has kept a few other worthy innovations down, so who knows.

So... Kashima coated rollers?

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 10:42 Quote
Problem with DLC coating on tradition bushing equipped forks is that it does nothing to remedy the inherent QA/QC issues that arise from tolerances during manufacturing. Manitou and MRP shouldn't have issues with bushings, but here we are. Fox struggled with stanchion wear on older 32 and 34mm forks due to lack of stiffness, but Rockshox has been producing thousands of forks every year without those issues.

Fox has now got their proverbial shit together, but Rockshox, or whoever is producing their forks for them (SR Suntour) has got such a dominant manufacturing process nobody else in the industry can challenge them without mentioning "bushing slop" or "bushing bind" in the reviews.

Seems to me Cannondale (or anyone who else who wants to adopt the needle/roller bearing slider setup) is in a perfect position to challenge that if they'd just do a modern version of the Moto and a two-side Ocho.

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 10:43 Quote
PHeller wrote:
Considering how many people buy a Fox 36 GRIP2 then swap in a coil conversion for another $300-$400, I don't think $1500 forks are outside the range of the market, and as with most things they'll drop in price as they become more common.

I agree and I'd go further by saying suspension upgrades have one of the highest return-on-investment values in the high-end market. I'd even go right off the deep end and say this is more true for the incremental cost increase of a good linkage fork than upgrading a telescoping fork, but that's separate rabbit hole to go down.


PHeller wrote:
Sorry I meant the stanchions are now round, vs the old square versions. If they did a traditional two-side fork design of the Ocho, it'd look like a RS1. If they did a two-sided version of the Supermax, it'd look like a Dorado.

Yes, the Ocho is nearly normal, by Lefty standards.


PHeller wrote:
I'd rather have the messiness at the top of the suspension vs the bottom. Could a Trust fork be turned upside down? All that linkage at the top of the fork might look better, IMO.

Ways in which a Trust could be inverted:

1. Mirrored linkages at the top of the legs:
• No ... just no.

2. Top linkage, single-crown:
• Would look like a Motion Ride.
• Better kinematics. Motion Ride has a vastly superior ratio of anti-dive to compliance.
• Chassis could be more difficult to execute.
• Packaging is a challenge.

3. Top linkage, double-crown:
• Now we're back to something like the Adroit.


PHeller wrote:
[ ... ] do a modern version of the Moto and a two-side Ocho.

Why? They've already demonstrated they can do a great single-sided chassis with minimal stiction.


PHeller wrote:
Problem with DLC coating on tradition bushing equipped forks is that it does nothing to remedy the inherent QA/QC issues that arise from tolerances during manufacturing.

1. It does, to a certain extent. If the coating has less friction, a tight fit is less problematic.
2. Maybe some of the cost saved by using traditional bushings could be spent on better tolerance control or dimensional matching.
3. Tolerances are not the main cause of friction in sliding bushings. When the pressure breaks through the film strength of the lubricant, friction goes through the roof.


seraph wrote:
So... Kashima coated rollers?

Let's just Kashima coat the trails so we'll never have to worry about friction again! lol

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 10:46 Quote
If the Adroit walked into a bar with a Trust and a Motion.....I know which one I'd go talk to...

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 10:54 Quote
The Motion challenged the Trust design for looking like hell and won.

I'll give you this much, the Structure design looks better than both, and if it had some sort of design line connect the head tube to the top of the front linkage, it'd look nearly normal.

Unfortunately, as I'm sure you know, selling a bike that is completely proprietary must've been a challenge. Not unlike the Lefty (although it didn't need a special frame, too.)

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 10:55 Quote
R-M-R, you are one hell of a nerd and a big bike nerd and I love it!! Thanks for the great reads! Salute

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 10:57 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
PHeller wrote:
[ ... ] do a modern version of the Moto and a two-side Ocho.

Why? They've already demonstrated they can do a great single-sided chassis with minimal stiction.


Honestly, a Lefty with the ability to run a normal 15mm hub ala Adroit's idea would be a game changer.

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 10:57 Quote
Circe wrote:
If the Adroit walked into a bar with a Trust and a Motion.....I know which one I'd go talk to...

The bartender?

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 10:59 Quote
The interesting thing, that even surprises me, is that I think that the Lefty is still a viable suspension platform. It got a lot of guff from the industry and consumers over the years but when it works, it works well. Once you learn how to work on them, they're not even that hard to service.

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 10:59 Quote
"These goons are all real weird, I'm gonna need some drinks."

Posted: Dec 10, 2019 at 11:00 Quote
So I am winning the fork game then?? lol
Two sided telescoping forks are for losers Bwahahaha


 
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