Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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Posted: Jan 17, 2020 at 16:36 Quote
Fit is as easy as hopping on a bike and taking it for a ride. Willingness to experiment helps.

After decades of riding and dozens of bikes and sizes tried I mostly know what works for me. Though that evolves with my age, new geometries.

Posted: Jan 17, 2020 at 17:04 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
PHeller wrote:
How many shops actually offer that highly comparative, reproducible fit test, though?

Most would just say "oops your small lets give you small cranks and oops your big lets give you big cranks."

This has been a debate since forever, especially in Triathlon, where in the early 2000s the 78º STA was considered bogus and many traditionalists hated it, but it turned out to be great for some and terrible for others, not necessarily because of power output, but merely because of comfort.

That's where RMR was going - in the end you can have a perfect bike fit that tells you the optimal crank length for your body, then end up finding a different crank length more comfortable for a myriad of reasons not covered in the fit test.

It's cool that 165mm cranks are as available as what they are. I've got 165s on my wifes bike (handy for messing with various wheel sizes) and 170s on my bike, as well as 175s on the commuter.

My little one doesn't even have cranks. Her bike fitter is WACK.
I've personally had three fits... at two different shops, on opposite coasts, and all three came with that level of data.

A real fit takes hours and it's like a dyno tune for you and your bike... the initial fit I did was an all day event. I mean, you can pay a garage tuner who tinker's with your timing and then flogs your ride down an empty backroad, and he tells you you're making an extra 20hp... but that's not a dyno tune and saying most dyno tunes are bullshit based on that is an inaccurate opinion. Go to an actual tuner and you have factual data showing power output increases. Same shit with a fit... people buying poor service that they thought was gonna be a good fit doesn't change the reality of an actual fit being very productive.

Of course things may change and I never suggested it was a permanent, absolutist measurement... but it's definitively not "nonsense" when you're talking about a legitimate fitting. That's the only point I've made and I'm not gonna pretend that's anything but fact just because some folks don't gave experience with anything beyond a garage fit.

I’m with you on this, the garage fit is a ballpark number that get you rolling... but that level of fit as you described previously mark a before and after for riding... not said only by me but a bunch of friends that race XC and road on a pro level

Posted: Jan 17, 2020 at 21:45 Quote
sherbet wrote:
sosburn wrote:
sounds like someone is a prime candidate for that article PVD wrote about “being an expert”

PVD is a dickhead and should likely lay off the pseudoscience.

Yay people are finally starting to see that PV is an absolute asshat.

Posted: Jan 17, 2020 at 22:23 Quote
seraph wrote:
sherbet wrote:
sosburn wrote:
sounds like someone is a prime candidate for that article PVD wrote about “being an expert”

PVD is a dickhead and should likely lay off the pseudoscience.

Yay people are finally starting to see that PV is an absolute asshat.

To be fair, he actually builds stuff and tests his theories, which puts him ahead of the vast majority. Many of his ideas make sense. Sometimes he goes too far down rabbit holes and yes, the attitude is off-putting. Still, it's the weirdos that move things forward and I'm thankful he - and people like him - exist.

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 3:42 Quote
Moved this from the sexiest thread since it's a bit more relevant here.


R-M-R wrote:
Arnoodles,

I'm 6' and ride about the same size as the Tyee 29 XL. Personal preferences have to be considered, of course, but I agree with MrMiyagi: at your height, even XL is too small in many bikes and I would only recommend a Large in brands where Large is way out of line with other Larges - i.e. when it's actually a typical XL, labeled as Large.

The Tyee 29 XL is longer than the reach suggests, due to the high stack. It's essentially spot-on average for a 2019 / 2020 XL - couple millimeters short, if we're being precise - which is at the lower end of what I recommend to folks your size, but not unreasonable. You might consider a larger bike if you plan to slam your seat forward for a steeper seat-tube angle and you like a super short stem; if you like your seat a bit rearward and a moderate stem length, this should be okay.

Keeping in mind a bike is so much more than its kinematics, the motion ratio is medium/high progressive and the pedaling anti-squat is likewise (I don't know what ratio and centre of mass they chose for their chart; certainly not the same as what I use*). It's not ideal to have the anti-squat start low and rise for most of the travel, but it's not a deal-breaker. Brake squat starts moderately high and ends moderately low. Again, this is the reverse of what I would do, but it's also not a big deal.

Overall, the geometry and kinematics are pretty much dead centre of what we're seeing in this category for 2019 - present. If I were your height, I'd look for something longer, but it's not unreasonably small for you.



* This is not to say one is better than the other. I feel pretty confident about my centre of mass locations for each size, but the choice of sprockets has a huge influence on the anti-squat and is highly arbitrary. It would be better to show the anti-squat curves of all ratios - at the very least, to disclose the ratio used.
Thanks for input! I do like the seat a touch further back and I don't plan on running a massively short stem so I should be okay for that, but I'll experiment with some sketches of the geometry to see how it really compares to stuff I've ridden.

You say the kinematics are not ideal but not a deal breaker; how would I experience these out on the trail as compared to what you'd consider ideal? Is it gonna be a very noticeable difference or splitting hairs?

One thing I'm particularly interested in is the leverage rate. I had a hard time getting the Commencal being as supple as I wanted off the top but still progressive enough to not bottom out too easily (with a debonair, not sure what tune). Looks like the Propain is significantly more progressive. Enough so that I can get away with a large volume air shock or even a coil in your opinion?

You probably have these already but anywho:
2020 Propain Tyee

Again, thanks for the trouble. Makes this process a lot easier.Salute

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 4:32 Quote
Arnoodles,

Your experiences fit with the leverage curves.

The Meta v4 is firm in the middle and soft at bottom-out. The new Tyee is the inverse. You'll find the Tyee to feel supple, with good resistance to bottoming out. That's not automatically a positive thing, though, as it also means the bike is less responsive to rider input, less "poppy", and more "wallowy". I think the positives of this curve shape outweigh the negatives, though.

Yes, this will work nicely with a more linear spring, such as a high-volume air or a coil. Use a bit less sag than you would with a high compression ratio air spring.

The aspects that aren't ideal:

• Pedaling will be more prone to oscillation than designs with falling anti-squat.
• Braking won't be as smooth as some, though the rear won't rise as much, either. I prefer smoother braking than preserving chassis pitch, though, when it comes to rear braking. I'll avoid going into a rant about front linkages ... this time.

The leverage curve is your top priority and it's the best aspect of the Tyee's kinematics.

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 6:57 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
seraph wrote:
sherbet wrote:


PVD is a dickhead and should likely lay off the pseudoscience.

Yay people are finally starting to see that PV is an absolute asshat.

To be fair, he actually builds stuff and tests his theories, which puts him ahead of the vast majority. Many of his ideas make sense. Sometimes he goes too far down rabbit holes and yes, the attitude is off-putting. Still, it's the weirdos that move things forward and I'm thankful he - and people like him - exist.

the attitude in his publishings is somewhat bearable, but in person he’s intolerable.

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 7:23 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
seraph wrote:
sherbet wrote:


PVD is a dickhead and should likely lay off the pseudoscience.

Yay people are finally starting to see that PV is an absolute asshat.

To be fair, he actually builds stuff and tests his theories, which puts him ahead of the vast majority. Many of his ideas make sense. Sometimes he goes too far down rabbit holes and yes, the attitude is off-putting. Still, it's the weirdos that move things forward and I'm thankful he - and people like him - exist.

It's easy to say his bikes are rad - would never say otherwise. That said, it's really hard to respect a grown ass man throwing a temper tantrum because their product didn't win the coveted sexiest hardtail of the year award. He degenerates so badly.

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 7:39 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
Arnoodles,

Your experiences fit with the leverage curves.

The Meta v4 is firm in the middle and soft at bottom-out. The new Tyee is the inverse. You'll find the Tyee to feel supple, with good resistance to bottoming out. That's not automatically a positive thing, though, as it also means the bike is less responsive to rider input, less "poppy", and more "wallowy". I think the positives of this curve shape outweigh the negatives, though.

Yes, this will work nicely with a more linear spring, such as a high-volume air or a coil. Use a bit less sag than you would with a high compression ratio air spring.

The aspects that aren't ideal:

• Pedaling will be more prone to oscillation than designs with falling anti-squat.
• Braking won't be as smooth as some, though the rear won't rise as much, either. I prefer smoother braking than preserving chassis pitch, though, when it comes to rear braking. I'll avoid going into a rant about front linkages ... this time.

The leverage curve is your top priority and it's the best aspect of the Tyee's kinematics.
Fair enough. I'll keep all that in mind on my search. Between this and a few of your other posts I think I can get a decent idea of what to look for. Thanks for the help! Beer

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 11:13 Quote
sherbet wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
seraph wrote:


Yay people are finally starting to see that PV is an absolute asshat.

To be fair, he actually builds stuff and tests his theories, which puts him ahead of the vast majority. Many of his ideas make sense. Sometimes he goes too far down rabbit holes and yes, the attitude is off-putting. Still, it's the weirdos that move things forward and I'm thankful he - and people like him - exist.

It's easy to say his bikes are rad - would never say otherwise. That said, it's really hard to respect a grown ass man throwing a temper tantrum because their product didn't win the coveted sexiest hardtail of the year award. He degenerates so badly.
Who is this pvd guy?

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 12:34 Quote
Peter Verdone; https://www.peterverdone.com/

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 13:37 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
seraph wrote:
sherbet wrote:


PVD is a dickhead and should likely lay off the pseudoscience.

Yay people are finally starting to see that PV is an absolute asshat.

To be fair, he actually builds stuff and tests his theories, which puts him ahead of the vast majority. Many of his ideas make sense. Sometimes he goes too far down rabbit holes and yes, the attitude is off-putting. Still, it's the weirdos that move things forward and I'm thankful he - and people like him - exist.

If you ever met him in real life you'd quickly change your tune.

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 14:32 Quote
secondtimeuser wrote:
Peter Verdone; https://www.peterverdone.com/

Never heard of the guy before. Started reading one of his articles:

"Of course, I rarely use commercially available frames these days as I demand a higher level of performance than most folks in the market. I design and build my own frames to take the ride to a much higher level. This is what I must do at this period in cycling. This should be embarrassing to the commercial and custom markets but they don’t care as long as they sell SKUs."

lmao.

What an asshat. Honestly hilarious anybody would say that.

He's actually a very talented engineer though in fairness and makes some really cool bikes. I like a lot of the details he machines for his bikes.




Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 14:33 Quote
Look up the YouTube videos of him riding. Team robot posted some a long time ago. Hilarious.

Posted: Jan 18, 2020 at 14:34 Quote
Very cool frames but don't see how they are a much higher level then already available


 
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