Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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Posted: Mar 25, 2020 at 16:40 Quote
Circe wrote:
tomhoward379 wrote:
Yeah but, f**k everyone else, they got to ride a load of ace new bikes.

America is turning into the state of Florida.
We should be so lucky...

Posted: Mar 25, 2020 at 16:42 Quote
parkourfan wrote:
tomhoward379 wrote:
You keep on enjoying your justification. I'm sure it will keep you safe.

Don't get too cranky in your ivory palace, and check back in 2 months for my axs ventilator review if you make it.
Is that gonna be integrated into AXS web so you can see respiratory rate data?

Posted: Mar 25, 2020 at 16:46 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
parkourfan wrote:
tomhoward379 wrote:
You keep on enjoying your justification. I'm sure it will keep you safe.

Don't get too cranky in your ivory palace, and check back in 2 months for my axs ventilator review if you make it.
Is that gonna be integrated into AXS web so you can see respiratory rate data?

If I can't see my gear position AND rapidly falling O2 stats, is it even worth it?

Posted: Mar 25, 2020 at 19:00 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
tom666 wrote:
Most companies employ at least one dude who's a mechanical engineer and can perform some stress strain calculations to ensure the design is in the right ballpark and might even go as far as doing a bit of FEA. Very few companies though, to my knowledge, employ specialist structural engineers. That stuff really is a field in itself and having specialist people who work on that stuff is probably why their frames are lighter than most.

The lay-up is typically left to the Asian factories. Not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you; they're quite good at it.

A little FEA isn't uncommon, especially for the major companies, but it's not the level of F1 / jet fighter / turbine blade analysis that marketing departments would have you believe. Coarse mesh, couple iterations, knock down the worst of the stress spikes. Again, not that there's anything wrong with that; anything is better than nothing and the return on investment drops quickly after a couple quick iterations. Better to do a couple quick iterations at multiple locations than spend ages on one little detail. What annoys me are the dramatic marketing descriptions of cutting-edge engineering work when I know how half-assed some companies are about it. Some companies are the real deal and some just like the look, but I suppose that's like anything in life.

Can you speak to which companies you have been impressed with, with how they engineer their frames? Can’t hurt to call out ones doing it the right way.

Posted: Mar 25, 2020 at 20:21 Quote
It’s actually been a very easy transition to start riding a little mellower, start rides from home instead of driving to the trailhead, muck around on my bmx on the driveway, stick to riding solo or in groups of 2, etc.

There’s still a lot of enjoyment to be had on bikes without having to ride at 10/10ths or in big groups.

Posted: Mar 25, 2020 at 20:38 Quote
Ordered up a 5010 frame today, anybody have much time on the V3 5010's? Planning to move the 160mm 36 from my Bronson onto it and trying to decide how much to reduce the travel. SC says 130-150mm so I was thinking 140mm to land right in the middle. Opinions?

Posted: Mar 25, 2020 at 21:10 Quote
dirtnapped wrote:
Can you speak to which companies you have been impressed with, with how they engineer their frames? Can’t hurt to call out ones doing it the right way.

No, I really can't, but it becomes pretty clear if you look into a company. (Actually, I'll name one.)

Some companies just seem a little more "involved" in the industry than others. Behind-the-scenes videos, factory tours, high-effort proprietary hardware, and - most importantly - numerous prototypes. If you can't find evidence of several prototypes actually being ridden over a long span of time, it may be because they didn't exist and the company is just winging it. Prototyping and destructive testing is expensive and time-consuming; that kind of commitment shows a company really cares.

Customer service matters, too, and there are a few companies you'll never hear anything bad about. For example, a guy I occasionally ride with needed a new shock for his bike immediately before a race and the company owner drove an hour each way from the company's base in Burnaby to Squamish to hand deliver it.

Here's the one I'll name: Giacomo Großehagenbrock of Kavenz and 77designz. This guy cares about his product and his customers in a way I've rarely seen in my life. The second-last time his bike broke during testing, I emailed him to suggest taking pre-orders and get his cash flow moving. The last time his bike broke, I phoned him to urge him to downgrade the certification to "all-mountain", rather than "downhill" and get to market. Most companies would've doubled the wall thickness and downgraded the rating ages ago, but Giacomo wouldn't budge, even with some challenging personal situations. It's either going to be best, strongest bike he can make or he won't do it. This guy is amazing. If you want to support someone who actually cares, support Giacomo.

Fine, one more: Steve at Vorsprung. Such a good guy. Wonderfully dry sense of humour, too.

Okay, last one: Mike Levy. Not exactly what you were asking, but Mike has always impressed me. So many journalists won't even talk to you if you're not a big fish in this muddy little puddle of ours, but Mike is a solid guy and still has passion for biking after all these years of making it his job. Wouldn't even let me tell him about a bike before testing it to avoid altering his perceptions.

Posted: Mar 25, 2020 at 23:26 Quote
I disagree. Factory tours are marketing. Some brands are doing highly innovative shit and refuse to allow media outlets publish behind the scenes content because they’re protecting technology.

As for prototypes, most brands don’t release or show them. What value is there in that? As a consumer, it would be next to impossible to point to a major player and say “oh yeah, they did like 8 protos of that.” That’s not the message. Only brand insiders would be aware of multiple prototype revisions.

Sure, there are brands that are purely catalog products. But, not all brands who fail to do “behind the scenes” tours and show a battered aluminum proto aren’t making or testing that product.

Posted: Mar 25, 2020 at 23:36 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
Ordered up a 5010 frame today, anybody have much time on the V3 5010's? Planning to move the 160mm 36 from my Bronson onto it and trying to decide how much to reduce the travel. SC says 130-150mm so I was thinking 140mm to land right in the middle. Opinions?

Their geo chart is based around a 130mm fork it looks like, so I’d probably go with the 140, too. A 150 would put it at almost a 65* HTA in the low setting, which could also be fun. Either way, congrats on a new bike!

Posted: Mar 26, 2020 at 1:07 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
Ordered up a 5010 frame today, anybody have much time on the V3 5010's? Planning to move the 160mm 36 from my Bronson onto it and trying to decide how much to reduce the travel. SC says 130-150mm so I was thinking 140mm to land right in the middle. Opinions?

And I just received Mojo HD4 frame. Thought about HD5, but I actually like HD4 geometry numbers with 160mm fork more. Got a cheap deal on Pike. Thinking about a carbon wheelset. My first carbon frame carbon wheels bike... I was holding out.

Will do a build now. Will be my daily trail bike. Will find coil rear shock for my old Nicolai, with meaty tires, and coil Lyrik, will be my trashing bike. Its a tank. I have 29r titanium hardtail for fire roads.

Posted: Mar 26, 2020 at 2:17 Quote
Axxe wrote:
Got a cheap deal on 170mm Pike.

170 mm Pike? You mean Lyrik? Or 160 mm Pike?

Posted: Mar 26, 2020 at 3:27 Quote
Circe wrote:
I disagree. Factory tours are marketing. Some brands are doing highly innovative shit and refuse to allow media outlets publish behind the scenes content because they’re protecting technology.

As for prototypes, most brands don’t release or show them. What value is there in that? As a consumer, it would be next to impossible to point to a major player and say “oh yeah, they did like 8 protos of that.” That’s not the message. Only brand insiders would be aware of multiple prototype revisions.

Sure, there are brands that are purely catalog products. But, not all brands who fail to do “behind the scenes” tours and show a battered aluminum proto aren’t making or testing that product.

Most brands have a visible history of prototypes if you look hard enough. Sometimes you only hear about it after the fact, but it usually comes out in some form.

It's true that not every reputable brand will have every one of those things and yes, some are clearly marketing bullshit. My point is that companies that put in the effort will usually have something to show for it. They're usually clever enough to turn their R&D efforts into marketing stories and the legitimate stories under the marketing gloss can usually be discerned from the fluff.

Most, if not all, of the small brands I follow on Instagram give insights into their R&D process - or the lack thereof. A couple of the major companies are almost completely opaque to me: the R&D is clearly there because the products are impressive, but they sure keep it tightly under wraps.

Posted: Mar 26, 2020 at 9:01 Quote
Guerrilla Gravity told me that when they sent their Revved carbon front triangles for testing that they exceeded the limits of the destructive testing rigs. Marketing? Probably. The rear stays aren't invincible, even if the front triangle is.

What I do know is that GG isn't shy about admitting their frames are overbuilt, and there is probably room for slimming down the frame weights considerably if they accept some level of destructive failure. It was offhandedly mentioned that the Trail Pistol could probably lose 1.5lbs in frame weight if buyers gave up the modular aspect of the frame (being stuck in 120-130mm mode only.) That'd put it on par with the Ripley (5.6lbs), maybe a little lighter.

The Scott Spark, even in trail guise, is another 1.5lbs lighter than the Ripley V4 and a pound lighter than the new Top Fuel. I wonder what kind of warranty issues Scott has got with these frames? It's one thing to support the rider for intended uses, it's another to stand up to rock strikes and wrecks.

Going back to GG's engineering, they wanted to make a bike that was not only strong enough to stand up to the most aggressive riders either in 120mm form or in 165mm setup, but also strong enough to deal with getting ditched, wrecked, etc. There are going to be some compromises there, and I'm sure other manufacturers like Yeti, Santa Cruz, etc are adding weight to frames to help with the abuses we're subjecting our "trail bikes" to.

What'll be interesting is to see if new methods and technology of carbon layup, like the aerospace derived manufacturing techniques Guerrilla Gravity is employing will allow both low weight and impact resistance.

RMR, what do you know about bike frame "testing" that we hear so much about? You mentioned it with 77Designs. Do bikes in the USA need some sort of certification like EU bikes do?

Posted: Mar 26, 2020 at 9:19 Quote
TibZ wrote:
Axxe wrote:
Got a cheap deal on 170mm Pike.

170 mm Pike? You mean Lyrik? Or 160 mm Pike?

You are right, brain fart. Did not receive fork yet.

Posted: Mar 26, 2020 at 9:30 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
Circe wrote:
I disagree. Factory tours are marketing. Some brands are doing highly innovative shit and refuse to allow media outlets publish behind the scenes content because they’re protecting technology.

As for prototypes, most brands don’t release or show them. What value is there in that? As a consumer, it would be next to impossible to point to a major player and say “oh yeah, they did like 8 protos of that.” That’s not the message. Only brand insiders would be aware of multiple prototype revisions.

Sure, there are brands that are purely catalog products. But, not all brands who fail to do “behind the scenes” tours and show a battered aluminum proto aren’t making or testing that product.

Most brands have a visible history of prototypes if you look hard enough. Sometimes you only hear about it after the fact, but it usually comes out in some form.

It's true that not every reputable brand will have every one of those things and yes, some are clearly marketing bullshit. My point is that companies that put in the effort will usually have something to show for it. They're usually clever enough to turn their R&D efforts into marketing stories and the legitimate stories under the marketing gloss can usually be discerned from the fluff.

Most, if not all, of the small brands I follow on Instagram give insights into their R&D process - or the lack thereof. A couple of the major companies are almost completely opaque to me: the R&D is clearly there because the products are impressive, but they sure keep it tightly under wraps.

I really don't agree with the opinion that if a brand doesn't market or advertise their R&D haven't put in serious effort into it. Especially true with smaller brands. With SDG most of our R&D is facilitated by me. Because we're a very small team we utilize tracked testing both internally and with a group of trusted outsiders. With any new project we go through countless designs in CAD before even getting to the sampling stage. Then there's several iterations of non-rideable printed samples. After we're happy with the aesthetics and basic functionality, we go through a long and costly process of countless rideable samples. We try not to tie projects to a firm completion date so that we can ensure we're fully satisfied with the project and not be tied to a specific delivery date for a customer PO.

With that being said, we really don't share any of the R&D with the public. Why? We have a certain brand image that we like to have and posting half-ass iPhone photos and videos really doesn't mesh with that branding. The testing aspect is definitely cool (to me), but because we don't want/need a fancy R&D facility it'd be hard to take us seriously if it's photos of me in my shed with a file and some JB weld making modifications to a sample. All of our products go through a veryyy long R&D process and I'm sure many brands are similar to us. Alluding to saying brands that don't post facility tours or insight into their R&D are not showing it for a reason is doing a dis-justice to many brands.

Sorry if I completely missed your point with my rant above. You always have educated and unique opinions on everything, just felt your response was a bit too much of a broad assumption that brands not publicizing their R&D aren't doing much R&D.


 
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