Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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flag shirk-007
O+
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 10:55 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
shirk-007 wrote:
People are over biked because shops are willing to sell them anything they ask for instead of working them into the right products.

Yeah, but "right" in your eyes - or mine - may not feel right to the customer. Shops have to sell happiness, not properness.

The best will find a way to balance it.

Anyway if we go back to weight doesn't really matter and most people aren't on the super progressive frames is being over biked really a legitimate problem?
flag PHeller
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Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 10:56 Quote
Kinda all comes back to this topic of weight.

Why are we or I, wrong for demanding lighter bike weight?

Apparently I'm not, because numerous brands just launched new bikes that are real frickin light.

I'm actually criticizing the brand I've put on a pedestal for years, now owned two of their products, and constantly proclaim as being far better than sliced bread - for NOT following trends.

If we all agree that we're kinda overbiked, is that because for the most part most 120-130mm bikes weigh as much as most 140-160mm bikes? If suddenly 120mm bikes were all 5lbs lighter, would we all move to those shorter travel bikes (if they were reliable, that is)?
flag R-M-R
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 10:59 Quote
shirk-007 wrote:
is being over biked really a legitimate problem?

Depends on how we define "problem".

Loads of suspension and cruise ship stability keep a rider safe and get them up to speed in a hurry. It also causes a plateau in skills because the rider can ride in a passive, "passenger" style. When I explain that to people, some are receptive and want to learn the skills, while others don't care and just want to have as much fun as possible, as quickly as possible, and as safely as possible.

The most we can do is help them understand these trade-offs. After that, it's no one's place to tell them how to have fun.


PHeller wrote:
Why are we or I, wrong for demanding lighter bike weight?

Again, it's the issue of education. I can explain the return-on-investment for various ways to spend money and show people how weight makes little difference. I can explain that it's a cognitive bias, with differences in weight being easier to quantify and more tangible on a showroom floor, while factors that matter on the trail are difficult to explain or demonstrate in a showroom. If people still want light products, though, I'm not going to go bankrupt by refusing to take their money.


shirk-007 wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
Shops have to sell happiness, not properness.
The best will find a way to balance it.

If shops were completely honest, they would usually tell people to get out of the shop and stop wasting time and money on equipment. Instead, "run what you brung", sacrifice some money by working less, and spend a bit on skills and fitness coaching. The rider would be more skilled and faster ... and the shop would be out of business.

Customers can be nudged in the right direction, but, ultimately, shops have to sell people things they don't need. Riding fancy contraptions through the woods has never been about need, so there's no point trying to impose "right", "wrong", "proper", etc.
flag badbadleroybrown
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:15 Quote
PHeller wrote:
Linkage forks are a perfect example.

The fact that Trust wasn't able to stay around, despite being backed by well know industry names and getting lots of media attention kinda gets to the crux of my point. The OE brands were not demanding their product, and maybe that's where they failed. When I first heard the rumors of their demise I had no doubts.

You think I'm a weird consumer? I think people who buy linkage forks are weird consumers.
The fact that Trust wasn't able to stay around comes down to two primary things; they were hideously ugly and wildly overpriced compared to their competition.


...add to that the reality that telescopic forks just don't suck badly enough to really demand a massive departure from the status quo and it's really more amazing that they lasted as long as they did than it is that they died.
flag clapforcanadaa
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Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:16 Quote
[Quote="R-M-R]
PHeller wrote:
Why are we or I, wrong for demanding lighter bike weight?

Again, it's the issue of education. I can explain the return-on-investment for various ways to spend money and show people how weight makes little difference. I can explain that it's a cognitive bias, with differences in weight being easier to quantify and more tangible on a showroom floor, while factors that matter on the trail are difficult to explain or demonstrate in a showroom. If people still want light products, though, I'm not going to go bankrupt by refusing to take their money.[/Quote]

I think you’re greatly downplaying the benefits of cognitive bias and the placebo affect it has on the rider. If you buy something because it’s lighter and you perceive that as making you faster, I fully believe that this perception will make you faster than the data you’re talking about reflects. I don’t think that the data really accurately reflects what happens in reality as it doesn’t include how much faster the rider perceives that product will make them. If you think you’re going to be faster because of “x” product then you’re going to be faster because of your mental approach.

Weight is for sure easier to market on the shop floor, but it also makes the most sense for the majority of consumers.
flag mtbman1980
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Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:25 Quote
Also what is marketed by bike companies as the benefit of going with the higher end spec vs the next level below are mostly mostly weight. We are constantly told lighter is better with marketing material.

My current bike is heavier than my last bike but the suspension design is a quite a bit more efficient to climb with. I feel fresher and am climbing faster than previously.
flag PHeller
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Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:27 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
The fact that Trust wasn't able to stay around comes down to two primary things; they were hideously ugly and wildly overpriced compared to their competition.

...add to that the reality that telescopic forks just don't suck badly enough to really demand a massive departure from the status quo and it's really more amazing that they lasted as long as they did than it is that they died.

Right, but you'd think with as much expertise as they had, and as much media feedback as they had, they would've determined that pretty quickly up front.

Pole should have known that Pinkbike was going to thrash their product and made DAMN sure it wasn't going to break or buckle during it. On camera. Sheesh.

Structure should have known you can have the best bike ever designed by the very best engineers ever and it still won't sell if it looks too wild, is too expensive or is too hard to live with. Bikes aren't Bugattis.

My point is, marketers mess up. Sometimes it results in a discounted product for a consumer, sometimes it means a business fails.
flag its-chris
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:34 Quote
guys kind of a fit question

I tried with different saddles and my balls keep going numb even with new chamois, Ive been thinking the bike might be a bit too long or too low of a cock pit, making me be too bent over the bars putting the pressure on weird places (bars might be too wide too and low), will try a riser bar and narrower... but does it make sense?
flag R-M-R
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:34 Quote
clapforcanadaa wrote:
Weight is for sure easier to market on the shop floor, but it also makes the most sense for the majority of consumers.

We'll have to disagree on that. If we take a modest bike (among the sort of bikes we snobs ride, so maybe $3K or a bit less) and look at ROI for additional spending, I believe most people would have a more enjoyable experience by upgrading the function of the tires, suspension, brakes, and many other parts, rather than maintaining equal function at reduced weight. Compare, for example, upgrading a fork with Solo Air spring and Motion Control damper to a DebonAir spring and Charger 2.1 damper vs. carbon cranks. Of course there are unlimited examples, but that's the general idea.

Could even put on a 170 mm SDG Tellis for improved mobility, Bel Air v3 (Lux-Alloy, if you insist) for "extra support, comfort and power", and Thrice 33 grips for "complete bar control and ultimate comfort" instead of cranks that do nothing but save a little weight. Wink
flag badbadleroybrown
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:35 Quote
PHeller wrote:
My point is, marketers mess up. Sometimes it results in a discounted product for a consumer, sometimes it means a business fails.
But are we sure it's a marketing failure and not a brand just being sure they're the next Tesla...

I mean, look at the Tesla truck. Take away the Tesla hype fan club and that things a dog turd. If Ford comes out with that truck do you think more than 10 people pre-order it? I would be loads of people told Weagle that the Trust looked like shit and was way too expensive and he was just sure he was Elon enough to swing it regardless.
flag Circe
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:36 Quote
If Structure had a cooler name, like DEATH bikes and prior to launch, the product was relentlessly teased with clips from the most insane Brandon Semunk edit (flimed by Clay Porter) and endless hype...

I bet it would sell. The product doesn't have to be good. Just have to convince enough people that it's sick AF. Bleed Black, Die Evil, Ride Death.
flag badbadleroybrown
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:38 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
clapforcanadaa wrote:
Weight is for sure easier to market on the shop floor, but it also makes the most sense for the majority of consumers.

We'll have to disagree on that. If we take a modest bike (among the sort of bikes we snobs ride, so maybe $3K or a bit less) and look at ROI for additional spending, I believe most people would have a more enjoyable experience by upgrading the function of the tires, suspension, brakes, and many other parts before maintaining equal function at reduced weight. Compare, for example, upgrading a fork with Solo Air spring and Motion Control damper to a DebonAir spring and Charger 2.1 damper vs. carbon cranks. Of course there are unlimited examples, but that's the general idea.

Could even put on a 170 mm SDG Tellis for improved mobility, Bel Air v3 (Lux-Alloy, if you insist) for "extra support, comfort and power", and Thrice 33 grips for "complete bar control and ultimate comfort" instead of cranks that do nothing but save a little weight. Wink
This would be an interesting experiment to conduct somehow... I think the majority of casual riders and bike buyers don't ride hard enough to really appreciate much difference in tire or suspension, but I think they notice a bike that feels lighter and more agile moving around the garage and underneath them.

I mean, almost universally, when someone who isn't a seriously cyclist handles one of my bikes regardless of whether it's road or mountain, what they notice first is that it's lighter than they expected. I think that's something that's easy to sell to someone who has no idea what kind of tire they want or why suspension even matters.
flag PHeller
O+
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:38 Quote
Alternatively, do brands say "nah we don't need to sell that thing, nobody will buy it, what we've got makes sense and our numbers prove it!"

Then two years later they are the last brand to offer that product and they still kinda fail, despite having plenty of time to study the successes and failures of other products.
flag badbadleroybrown
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:39 Quote
Circe wrote:
Bleed Black, Die Evil, Ride Death.

I'm sold... when's your new frame dropping? lol
flag PHeller
O+
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:39 Quote
Circe wrote:
If Structure had a cooler name, like DEATH bikes and prior to launch, the product was relentlessly teased with clips from the most insane Brandon Semunk edit (flimed by Clay Porter) and endless hype...

I bet it would sell. The product doesn't have to be good. Just have to convince enough people that it's sick AF. Bleed Black, Die Evil, Ride Death.

lol

SOLD

 


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