Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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flag swan3609
O+
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:41 Quote
I would love to blind test a bunch of bikes and suspension components.. Everything blacked out and have no idea what I was riding with no preconceived ideas to see what I actually thought about performance.
flag captainbringdown
Mod
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:46 Quote
its-chris wrote:
guys kind of a fit question

I tried with different saddles and my balls keep going numb even with new chamois, Ive been thinking the bike might be a bit too long or too low of a cock pit, making me be too bent over the bars putting the pressure on weird places (bars might be too wide too and low), will try a riser bar and narrower... but does it make sense?

have you played around with the seat angle already? I ride a much more tip down position on my road/cx rig in this position to maintain comfort.
flag its-chris
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:53 Quote
isaacschmidt wrote:
its-chris wrote:
guys kind of a fit question

I tried with different saddles and my balls keep going numb even with new chamois, Ive been thinking the bike might be a bit too long or too low of a cock pit, making me be too bent over the bars putting the pressure on weird places (bars might be too wide too and low), will try a riser bar and narrower... but does it make sense?

have you played around with the seat angle already? I ride a much more tip down position on my road/cx rig in this position to maintain comfort.


yeah, already riding nose down, might put it lower and try it!! might get a new saddle as what I did was trying with old ones I had on the house that I had no previous problems
flag R-M-R
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:53 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
This would be an interesting experiment to conduct somehow... I think the majority of casual riders and bike buyers don't ride hard enough to really appreciate much difference in tire or suspension, but I think they notice a bike that feels lighter and more agile moving around the garage and underneath them.

I mean, almost universally, when someone who isn't a seriously cyclist handles one of my bikes regardless of whether it's road or mountain, what they notice first is that it's lighter than they expected. I think that's something that's easy to sell to someone who has no idea what kind of tire they want or why suspension even matters.

It's difficult to know exactly what contributes to the ride experience of less experienced and/or less advanced riders and to what extent. It's easy enough to evaluate how they make their purchases, but the actual ride experience is tricky. Definitely comfort and convenience: I've seen plenty of people who don't notice when their climb switches are left locked, but they sure notice grips and saddles.

Yes, light sells. I used to work in a super high-end, snobby road shop - wouldn't even sell Shimano or Mavic, if that gives the picture - and we usually had three halo bikes on pedestals: one wonder of modern technology (or "Italian design wankery", if you prefer), one classic steel masterpiece (or "some old bike that still smells of Fausto Coppi's chamois"), and one that was crazy light. The light one was the most expensive and didn't look as flashy, but weighed barely double-digit pounds and made some people angry at us for having the nerve to sell something so expensive. While they were ranting, I liked to take it down and put it in their hands. The ranting immediately stopped and we even sold a couple that way. It wasn't a pleasant ride experience and wouldn't make their high-paying-desk-job bods noticeably faster, but it rationalized the purchase and, presumably, made them happy.
flag shirk-007
O+
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:54 Quote
Average suspension on an aggressive maintenance schedule is going to ride better than the best suspension on a crap maintenance schedule.

Good geometry, fit, and average kinematics are more important than saving a few lbs.
flag its-chris
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 11:54 Quote
also rather have a stiffer bike than a wet noodle!!
flag shirk-007
O+
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 12:00 Quote
What was the last bike that you owned that you consider a wet noodle?
flag clapforcanadaa
O+
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 12:02 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
clapforcanadaa wrote:
Weight is for sure easier to market on the shop floor, but it also makes the most sense for the majority of consumers.

We'll have to disagree on that. If we take a modest bike (among the sort of bikes we snobs ride, so maybe $3K or a bit less) and look at ROI for additional spending, I believe most people would have a more enjoyable experience by upgrading the function of the tires, suspension, brakes, and many other parts, rather than maintaining equal function at reduced weight. Compare, for example, upgrading a fork with Solo Air spring and Motion Control damper to a DebonAir spring and Charger 2.1 damper vs. carbon cranks. Of course there are unlimited examples, but that's the general idea.

Could even put on a 170 mm SDG Tellis for improved mobility, Bel Air v3 (Lux-Alloy, if you insist) for "extra support, comfort and power", and Thrice 33 grips for "complete bar control and ultimate comfort" instead of cranks that do nothing but save a little weight. Wink

Definitely disagree with you here. Weight is way easier to market to the majority of consumers than improved suspension (or tires). In your example, if a consumer were to upgrade from a GRIP to a GRIP2 fork or from their stock OE wheels to some lighter carbon hoops, I can guarantee that for the vast majority of consumers they’d realize the benefits of carbon rims (weight loss) over the benefits of the adjustability of GRIP2. While there are definitely lots of benefits of going to better suspension, I don’t think the majority of riders can fully utilize and benefit from them to the same extent as they could with a large weight loss like carbon hoops.

I like to think that I’m on the upper end of cycling abilities (ie I’m a Strava big shot) and I really can’t tell a ton of a difference between GRIP and GRIP2. There’s definitely benefits I can feel, but when I add something like carbon rims to my bike, my times are dramatically faster than swapping forks.
flag badbadleroybrown
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 12:03 Quote
its-chris wrote:
isaacschmidt wrote:
its-chris wrote:
guys kind of a fit question

I tried with different saddles and my balls keep going numb even with new chamois, Ive been thinking the bike might be a bit too long or too low of a cock pit, making me be too bent over the bars putting the pressure on weird places (bars might be too wide too and low), will try a riser bar and narrower... but does it make sense?
have you played around with the seat angle already? I ride a much more tip down position on my road/cx rig in this position to maintain comfort.


yeah, already riding nose down, might put it lower and try it!! might get a new saddle as what I did was trying with old ones I had on the house that I had no previous problems
Nose down is going to rotate your pelvis forward and put even more weight on the area. The tip of your saddle should never really be more than +/- 2 degrees off level... and level should really always be the starting point.

Have you tried sliding the saddle forward on the rails? You may be riding too far forward on the saddle and supporting your weight too much on the soft tissue as opposed to the sit bones. You may also have the saddle too high with too little hip angle, effectively pulling yourself down at the top of each stroke.

Outside of really extreme saddle to bar drops, your hand position isn't going to play a very large role in your balls going numb.
flag captainbringdown
Mod
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 12:07 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
its-chris wrote:
isaacschmidt wrote:

have you played around with the seat angle already? I ride a much more tip down position on my road/cx rig in this position to maintain comfort.


yeah, already riding nose down, might put it lower and try it!! might get a new saddle as what I did was trying with old ones I had on the house that I had no previous problems
Nose down is going to rotate your pelvis forward and put even more weight on the area. The tip of your saddle should never really be more than +/- 2 degrees off level... and level should really always be the starting point.

Have you tried sliding the saddle forward on the rails? You may be riding too far forward on the saddle and supporting your weight too much on the soft tissue as opposed to the sit bones. You may also have the saddle too high with too little hip angle, effectively pulling yourself down at the top of each stroke.

Outside of really extreme saddle to bar drops, your hand position isn't going to play a very large role in your balls going numb.

I should have added within reason, I'm no Jaro Kulhavy... but it's made my drop position significantly more comfortable on the 1.5-2 hour spins in the same position...
flag PHeller
O+
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 12:13 Quote
ditto.

That being said, I'm far less comfortable on my dropped-nose saddle on my 78º sta bike than I was on all my more normal STA bikes.

There is definitely something at play between shorter ETT, steeper STA, and longer reach in terms of how it impacts comfort and ergonomics.

I'm looking at trying a Specialized Power on my MTB just for kicks. I rode a cheap Chinese version for a few months on my townie bike and was impressed with the comfort, even on a copy (that fell apart).
flag PHeller
O+
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 12:14 Quote
Does anyone regularly use tire plugs? Do they do any good for smaller sidewall tears?
flag R-M-R
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 12:18 Quote
clapforcanadaa wrote:
Definitely disagree with you here. Weight is way easier to market to the majority of consumers than improved suspension (or tires). In your example, if a consumer were to upgrade from a GRIP to a GRIP2 fork or from their stock OE wheels to some lighter carbon hoops, I can guarantee that for the vast majority of consumers they’d realize the benefits of carbon rims (weight loss) over the benefits of the adjustability of GRIP2. While there are definitely lots of benefits of going to better suspension, I don’t think the majority of riders can fully utilize and benefit from them to the same extent as they could with a large weight loss like carbon hoops.

I like to think that I’m on the upper end of cycling abilities (ie I’m a Strava big shot) and I really can’t tell a ton of a difference between GRIP and GRIP2. There’s definitely benefits I can feel, but when I add something like carbon rims to my bike, my times are dramatically faster than swapping forks.

Interesting. Two things come to mind:

I'm thinking in terms of ride enjoyment, which may not be reflected by time. Like you, I'm probably negligibly faster on GRIP2, compared to GRIP, but GRIP2 does feel nicer to me.

Maybe this illustrates the differences in what people perceive. It's possible we're on different ends of the spectrum in how attuned we are to weight and/or suspension function.
flag its-chris
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 12:20 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
its-chris wrote:
isaacschmidt wrote:

have you played around with the seat angle already? I ride a much more tip down position on my road/cx rig in this position to maintain comfort.


yeah, already riding nose down, might put it lower and try it!! might get a new saddle as what I did was trying with old ones I had on the house that I had no previous problems
Nose down is going to rotate your pelvis forward and put even more weight on the area. The tip of your saddle should never really be more than +/- 2 degrees off level... and level should really always be the starting point.

Have you tried sliding the saddle forward on the rails? You may be riding too far forward on the saddle and supporting your weight too much on the soft tissue as opposed to the sit bones. You may also have the saddle too high with too little hip angle, effectively pulling yourself down at the top of each stroke.

Outside of really extreme saddle to bar drops, your hand position isn't going to play a very large role in your balls going numb.


Makes sense!! Will push it forward and see how it goes!! Seat might be a bit too high too...

Will follow the check list and see how it goes!!

Also about the wet noodle bike ... modern ones have not found anything like that... probably would be a wheel issue more than frame
flag R-M-R
Posted: Jul 1, 2020 at 12:22 Quote
PHeller wrote:
Does anyone regularly use tire plugs?

Yes.


PHeller wrote:
Do they do any good for smaller sidewall tears?

Depends how small and how much the casing flexes in the area of the plug. A small hole - just large enough to get the plug in - should be okay. If it's large enough to need a couple plugs, it could go either way. The effectiveness of the sealant is a significant factor.

 


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