Enduro/AM - The Weight Game

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Enduro/AM - The Weight Game
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flag swan3609
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Posted: Jul 7, 2020 at 16:01 Quote
clapforcanadaa wrote:
sherbet wrote:
Fox AX rocks bigtime. Been loving mine.

Mine was from the pre-production days so it's running 7 volume spacers + 160psi to get it still enough. It looks a bit comical when I pull the stack of volume spacers out as they just keep coming!

#dadbod
flag R-M-R
Posted: Jul 7, 2020 at 16:45 Quote
Since we're on the topic, maybe we can discuss drop bars for a moment. Are they really the right approach for trail-oriented gravel / monstercross? Do we really want to choose between good braking in the drops vs. mediocre braking on the hoods?

I've been thinking about flat bars with inboard bar ends; keep the tops and hoods, then substitute the drops for a wider (old-school XC width) flat position. May require a bit more stem length. Upside would be better descending control, downside would be brakes accessible from only one position or a dual lever set-up. Haven't tested it for myself, so thoughts?
flag PHeller
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Posted: Jul 7, 2020 at 16:57 Quote
I never quite got on with the shape of drop bars for rad off road riding.

EDIT: only advantage I see to drops is better aero in a headwind and more hand positions, but that can be done with all kinds of inboard add-ons and what not. Lots of people are winning long-distance off-road endurance races without drop bars.

My only reason for wanting to put bigger tires and better brakes my vintage road and MTB is merely because well...I want everything to feel like an MTB.

If I had to choose between a 23lbs MTB and a 23lbs gravel bike, it's going to be the MTB every time.

That new Epic would make a might fine gravel bike for me. A Chinese carbon 29+ (TanTan FM299) would be cool too. Slap on some drop bars when I want to be goofier than I normally am.
flag nubbs
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Posted: Jul 7, 2020 at 16:57 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
Since we're on the topic, maybe we can discuss drop bars for a moment. Are they really the right approach for trail-oriented gravel / monstercross? Do we really want to choose between good braking in the drops vs. mediocre braking on the hoods?

I've been thinking about flat bars with inboard bar ends; keep the tops and hoods, then substitute the drops for a wider (old-school XC width) flat position. May require a bit more stem length. Upside would be better descending control, downside would be brakes accessible from only one position or a dual lever set-up. Haven't tested it for myself, so thoughts?

That sounds weird man.

Are you a recumbent and tandem rider magazine subscriber?

That would be cool to fab something up like that tho.
flag badbadleroybrown
Posted: Jul 7, 2020 at 17:11 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
Since we're on the topic, maybe we can discuss drop bars for a moment. Are they really the right approach for trail-oriented gravel / monstercross? Do we really want to choose between good braking in the drops vs. mediocre braking on the hoods?

I've been thinking about flat bars with inboard bar ends; keep the tops and hoods, then substitute the drops for a wider (old-school XC width) flat position. May require a bit more stem length. Upside would be better descending control, downside would be brakes accessible from only one position or a dual lever set-up. Haven't tested it for myself, so thoughts?
If someone can't brake well on the hoods then they need to learn how to setup their bike properly. I don't know about aggressive trail riding but if you're doing long distances on more moderate trails then the varying hand positions are awesome.

Flat bars with inboard bar ends has been done... Lachlan Morton runs that setup on his xc bike. Watch the EF Gone Racing Leadville 2019 video and there's a bunch of good shots of his setup. I could see it being pretty comfortable... and he uses em like mini aero bars too which could be handy.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Jul 7, 2020 at 17:18 Quote
nubbs wrote:
That sounds weird man.

Are you a recumbent and tandem rider magazine subscriber?

That would be cool to fab something up like that tho.

I'll preemptively apologize for straying so far from the thread topic. Gravel bikes are light and a fancy bar could make them more enduro ... right? Maybe?

The bar idea isn't mine; several variations already exist. My preferences in road bars has been moving in a few directions:

• Hoods: Narrow spacing to stay aero; vertical.
• Drops: Shallow drop, wide spacing for descending control, not too wide at the rearward end.
• Tops: Whatever.

The Enve G Series was in the ballpark. The 3T Superghiaia 400 (image below) hits every mark. On gravel or trails, I would take these preferences even further, possibly ending up at a flat bar with inboard bar ends.


badbadleroybrown wrote:
If someone can't brake well on the hoods then they need to learn how to setup their bike properly.

It's impossible to access the full length of the lever from the hoods. Moderate braking is fine, but not full power.


photo
flag badbadleroybrown
Posted: Jul 7, 2020 at 17:31 Quote
R-M-R wrote:
It's impossible to access the full length of the lever from the hoods. Moderate braking is fine, but not full power.

photo
I have thousands of miles of effortlessly accessing the full power of my brakes on demand, from the hoods that says you're wrong. More than enough leverage to lock up or modulate as needed... especially with modern disc's. Might have had a semi valid argument talking about wet pads on carbon rim brakes five or ten years ago but that's a non issue today.
flag riish
Posted: Jul 7, 2020 at 17:35 Quote
I don’t think you can dispute the point that braking from the end of the lever is more mechanically advantageous than braking from the middle of it, there is simply more leverage.

While it might not be an issue as you have the leverage you need from the hoods, the fact remains that more braking power (perhaps more than is useable with a skinny front tyre) can be obtained from braking from the lever end.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Jul 7, 2020 at 17:37 Quote
riish wrote:
I don’t think you can dispute the point that braking from the end of the lever is more mechanically advantageous than braking from the middle of it, there is simply more leverage.

While it might not be an issue as you have the leverage you need from the hoods, the fact remains that more braking power (perhaps more than is useable with a skinny front tyre) can be obtained from braking from the lever end.

Yes, of course. It's simple geometry.

Let's move on.
flag badbadleroybrown
Posted: Jul 7, 2020 at 17:45 Quote
riish wrote:
I don’t think you can dispute the point that braking from the end of the lever is more mechanically advantageous than braking from the middle of it, there is simply more leverage.

While it might not be an issue as you have the leverage you need from the hoods, the fact remains that more braking power (perhaps more than is useable with a skinny front tyre) can be obtained from braking from the lever end.
Not debating that... just debating the need for more leverage. If your grip strength is weak enough that you're in need of more leverage to get full power from your brakes, you've got bigger issues than bar choice.
flag heinous
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Posted: Jul 7, 2020 at 17:45 Quote
badbadleroybrown wrote:
R-M-R wrote:
It's impossible to access the full length of the lever from the hoods. Moderate braking is fine, but not full power.

photo
I have thousands of miles of effortlessly accessing the full power of my brakes on demand, from the hoods that says you're wrong. More than enough leverage to lock up or modulate as needed... especially with modern disc's. Might have had a semi valid argument talking about wet pads on carbon rim brakes five or ten years ago but that's a non issue today.

Modern drop bar disc brake set ups are so good you have plenty of power and control from hoods, plus the benefit of a neutral wrist. I’ve been riding Mountainbike trails on CD bikes for years, back to the BB7r brake and as Leroy says, it isnt really a thing if people are set up right.

Still, you can have both. Plus a jammed up neck.

https://www.curvecycling.com.au/products/walmer-bars?gclid=Cj0KCQjwupD4BRD4ARIsABJMmZ92_i3GCeFpDyCCHXURiXM75tLZkWeMAUKfzZ8sTI6j9VF9G0wVoJUaAlQSEALw_wcB
flag scotteh
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Posted: Jul 7, 2020 at 17:47 Quote
That was my intended BCBR set up this year, did a few rides with it and it was handy. Not quite as versatile as true drops but helped provide hand placement options on longer rides and all the off-road benefits of regular mtb bars. Big fan of horns but modern bars are too wide to fit them outboard.
flag badbadleroybrown
Posted: Jul 7, 2020 at 17:51 Quote
I wanna try 750mm wide drops just to see what that's like.. I wanna say it's nuts but I bet on something like a chamois hagar with a short stem it could be pretty rad.
flag R-M-R
Posted: Jul 7, 2020 at 17:58 Quote
heinous wrote:
Modern drop bar disc brake set ups are so good you have plenty of power and control from hoods, plus the benefit of a neutral wrist. I’ve been riding Mountainbike trails on CD bikes for years, back to the BB7r brake and as Leroy says, it isnt really a thing if people are set up right.

Still, you can have both. Plus a jammed up neck.

Walmer Bar

The Walmer Bar seems like the worst of both worlds, to me, though I haven't tried it. From the photos, it looks like the hoods become an awkward hand position and braking from the hoods would be done with the pinky or outer two fingers, which is likely worse than with the first one or two fingers, as per bars without flare. I'm sure the width is nice for control, but there seem to be several sacrifices to get the width.


scotteh wrote:
That was my intended BCBR set up this year, did a few rides with it and it was handy. Not quite as versatile as true drops but helped provide hand placement options on longer rides and all the off-road benefits of regular mtb bars. Big fan of horns but modern bars are too wide to fit them outboard.

How would you feel about hoods inboard of the brakes?
flag heinous
O+
Posted: Jul 7, 2020 at 17:59 Quote
At that point surely you’re faster and more comfortable on an MTB? I wonder too how much agility you lose - I really like geo at the CX end of the spectrum, I find even the SuperX just feels pretty boring.

I think if running a super wide drop I’d probably want an in-line brake lever for one brake, just so I’m not moving around all the time for small adjustments.

 


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